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Actually, that seems like it wouldnt be a terrible card, against other aggro it would definitely give you an edge. Can be played on turn 1 before the majority of counters would hit. Few people actually maindeck enchantment removal either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Anyone consider something like exhaustion against other aggro? It'd work great with flood in any case, but when correctly timed its almost a timewalk. Just another thought.
PS - yes, I definitely had to look it up.
I've been thinking about it for the last week, and I got some quick testing and goldfishing in yesterday.
-1 Snapback
-1 Rushing River
+2 Jitte
This has been working out real well for me.
I also want to test
-4 Spell Snare
+1 Sensei's diving top
+2 Serum Visions
+1 Island (helps alot actually)
As a UG Madness player from way back as well as a Thresh player, this deck apeals to me.
dropping the spell snares seems to be a metagame call, this deck was designed to win the thresh mirror, and spell snares are a large part of that. I wouldn't drop them unless there isn't much thresh in your area.
Not to mention how much they help against TES, Belcher, Iggy, Fish, Anything with Confidant and almost any other matchup except goblins.
Even against goblins they counter piledriver if your on the draw, its a solid hard counter.
Jitte does seem like a good call for removal too, its a bit on the expensive side when you figure it actually costs 4 mana to get moving, but once its online you pretty much just win.
However, Jitte being popular in this deck is yet another argument for Spell Snare.
You know what card I really think belongs in this deck?
Crucible of Worlds. At worst, it fills another two artifact slots to feed Goyf.
But the power of a wasteland lock is just way too powerful. You can keep them mana screwed while you cast and attack with undercosted beef.
It can even filter out extra lands from the deck so each brainstorm midgame draws you more business spells.
Seems to me that Life from the Loam would be even better, since it would power up Mongrel and company while tutoring three at a time for Wonder/Genesis/etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuckerPunch
You got the wrong thread there bud. :wink:
You're looking for UG Madness which is about two threads down below this one.
Here, the deck doesn't have as much spare mana, and when it does, it's better off using it to play cantrips. So I would guess that Crucible would be better than Loam here.
I like having random threats in such cantripfull decks. I would play at least 1*counterbalance and 1*crucible. Maybe also 1*threads of disloyalty or 1*vedalken shackles.
I'd love also to play this deck with less cantrips but more stifles (i.e. trickbinds) and play phyrexian dreadnought instead of werebear. If so, I would also try 1*greater good in random slot.
I really wish random ass low-level pros who never play Legacy would stop winning our major tournaments and talking at length about how they didn't practice the format at all or put any testing into their deck or know what they were doing before they accidentally won the fucking thing. It just makes us seem so completely fucking incidental.
I played against a build that was almost identical to the winning list a few months ago on MWS, except it ran Piracy Charm. I was slightly annoyed because I kept losing to the fucking thing with all these different top tier decks. But at the risk of sounding like Anusien, it just felt like I should have won a lot of those test games; there were plenty of times where I just failed to draw anything for a couple of turns, or he just opened up with double Wasteland and drew double Daze and I couldn't draw another land for infinite turns. I don't know. With lots of decks I understand why it's good, but this deck just reminds me Gamekeeper from last year; I'm not trying to say that the person just lucksacked their way to the win, or that the deck must intrinsically suck, I just fail to see why it's good.
Although I appreciate the irony of GenCon being won by a U/G Aggro-Control deck packing the Wasteland/Stifle/Daze combo two years in a row.
I don't think I fully understand this. Are you saying that it is bad that players who play other formats are winning in legacy and not testing, because it makes all your and others work on the format seem incidental? Well that is just a fact, if he won without testing and practicing, that is amazing for him. You shouldn't be upset with him that a legacy player/theorist did not win, it clearly isnt his fault. All he said was the truth, it was not a mockery of the format or the innovators in it.Quote:
I really wish random ass low-level pros who never play Legacy would stop winning our major tournaments and talking at length about how they didn't practice the format at all or put any testing into their deck or know what they were doing before they accidentally won the fucking thing. It just makes us seem so completely fucking incidental.
Also he didn't talk at length about it. He was asked a question, and simply answered it.
Alright, I don't understand what you are made about. The fact that Peter suceeded, and even myself for that matter, with such little preparation is a testament to playskill. Whereas preparation is important, it isn't exactly necessary. Simply put, there is nothing wrong with great players doing well, in any format, without preparation. If you don't want people to win without preparation, then step up yourself. If a good player works hard, they will be rewarded. Great players rely on playskill.
I think that what TIBA (if I may abbreviate his handle like that) means is that it creates the impression that Legacy is an "easy" format requiring no preparation to compete in successfully; it misrepresents Legacy as a straightforward format that lacks depth. It's also pretty arrogant, if it's true (which, in many cases, I doubt; thus making it an even more arrogant comment). Really, it just reflects poorly on a format if doing well requires "no preparation", if you can just pick up a deck and play it to victory.Quote:
Originally Posted by goobafish
Now, if only there was any Legacy action near me... I'd show them all! :wink:
To all players who performed well at the championship - congratulations on your success. You played well, and you don't have to defend that.
Legacy is still an open and sometimes random format, which makes tournament results less meaningful than we want them to be. That can be frustrating, but it's still the world championship. Don't take the complaints too seriously.
Well firsthand I can tell you that it is true, we handed him the deck at the prelims and he had never used or discussed it before. If it was a mockery, or a falsehood, then yes, I can see how it can be upsetting, but that is not the case in this situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaswerfraiejen
Thanks Chris. I really liked hearing your insight into the Legacy community at gencon, as it affirmed many of my suspicions and beliefs.Quote:
To all players who performed well at the championship - congratulations on your success. You played well, and you don't have to defend that.
Legacy is still an open and sometimes random format, which makes tournament results less meaningful than we want them to be. That can be frustrating, but it's still the world championship. Don't take the complaints too seriously.
You guys put together a great deck.
I don't think there is any reason for anyone to be upset that a good skilled player won with a good deck just because he hadn't practiced it.
If the build was janky, then it might suggest that the format is janky and random. But the deck is very good.
The deck takes the best elements of threshold, and adds in the best disruption in the format (Wasteland + Stifle). Just because it's something that many people haven't seen before doesnt' make it a bad deck.
It's not an issue of my blaming him; it's an issue of my wishing the people who win a major legacy tournament looked like they had worked for it. I didn't mind that Chris Pikula almost won Columbus, even though he's not a regular Legacy player, becauseQuote:
Originally Posted by goobafish
1) Clearly amazing. Not "good", not even just "great", he's an amazing player. It says less about the skill level of a format when someone who happens to be a God of the game wins without testing, even though....
2) He did in fact test a good bit.
I didn't say it wasn't fact that someone who isn't clearly acknowledged as being amongst the best to ever play the game and who hadn't practiced for the tournament won. I'm just annoyed that it is fact, and that this isn't the first time it's happened. I'm not blaming the winner for winnining, I'm annoyed at the circumstances that make Legacy seem less skill intensive, as if any competent player can waltz in and casually destroy the format, which is clearly scrub central.
And it's really more the fact that it's happened repeatedly that annoys me. Again, not annoyed at the winners in particular, but in the impression it might give outsiders about the format.
Legacy is an unforgiving format. If you fetch the wrong land, dont mulligan, dont waste the right land, ect you can lose the game. Ive seen tons of games lost to Brainstorming incorrectly or Survivaling for the wrong creature.
Legacy rewards the best players. The field is always random and hard for mediocre to good players to metagame for. Thus the player that can 'in game undermine' the opponent is usually favored. This is why alot of the best players gravitate to Landstill and why all the best players played Flash or in Standards case Affinity.
It might paint an ugly picture but all of the Legacy community that would know or care who's winning understand.
Like mentioned the deck looks very solid and won first out of 4 threshy style decks since it was prepared for the mirror. Congrats to those who won with and worked on the list.
I think Counterbalance Top combo is screaming to be thrown in. I honestly dont get how it's use is determined by preference. Its only really bad against Stax and Goblins. Stax isnt seen in high volume and Goblins are beginning a slow decline now that they have a worse Thresh matchup and a bad Ceph B matchup.
QFT. Phan had been working on the list for a long while before it was played at that tourney. Lots of time was spent getting this tweaked for the meta, and god damn a good job was done of it. I've been fooling around online with this deck, and all I ever think about is how overpowered it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx
CounterTop is a sideboard bomb. Love this list.
Well I ended up running this list today. Lost in the top 8. 18 people, 3x Landstill, 1x CRET Belcher, 2x Beakfast, 2x U/G Thresh, and other pet decks. Top 8 Finish.
For reference the list I ran:
// Lands
4x Polluted Delta
1x Forest (3)
2x Windswept Heath
2x Island (3)
4x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland
// Creatures
4x Nimble Mongoose
2x Werebear
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Plaxcaster Frogling
// Spells
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Spell Snare
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Pongify
4x Stifle
4x Predict
4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions
// Sideboard
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Spell Snare
3x Krosan Grip
2x Hail Storm
2x Vedalken Shackles
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Pithing Needle
2x Umezawa's Jitte
Some notes from the Tourney and testing.
@Landstill Match: Still a very hard match-up, but it is alot better then the 3 color match-up is. It's very hard for them to cut you off a color and not to mention you can attack there mana base. In testing and the tourney I was able to to ride a 1st or 2nd turn Goose the whole way. Another key for this match-up is to keep Standstill off the table. Which is very doable.
@Pongify: At first I loved the idea behind it. It was blue removal, and so what about the 3/3 just block it. Turns out it was kinda meh for me. But then again in an aggro meta it might be nuts. But over all I wasn't happy with it at all.
@Basic Forest: Very huge. I would've been cut off from green if I had not been running this. ! is all that is needed since all threats just take G in the casting cost.
@Plaxcaster: Not sure on this guy. It must be some good because he draws a tone of hate as soon he hits the table. Not sure on this one yet.
@Regular Counterspells:This might be a meta call, but there have been a few times that I wanted regular counter spell. Late game Daze just doesn't cut it and some games could've been changed with regular CS.