Cycling land #5 seems good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joon
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Cycling land #5 seems good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joon
Right - don't know actually why I didn't think of that :confused:
Added.
Hi!
Can someone post the matchup analysis?
Why do you play 4 E.E isn't better play 2 E.E and 2 Deed?
With this split you could have an answer against Needle and Meddling Mage and you will be able to destroy other stuff with converted mana cost >3 (as Moat or Humility for example)
Magus
I haven't got much time by now, so excuse my short answer please.
This deck's Matchups against Treshvariants is good to very good (depends of course on their list - do they have the basic forest, do they have Needle main etc.), against Landstill our deck should be favoured, too (unless they have Extirpate and we no (or countered) Wish). Combo is one of the Matchups you don't like. Especially the Belcher and the Ichorid MU is near to awful (but you can wreck Ichorid if they don't kill you in one turn with 'nacle and/or Dreams). T.E.S. isn't that good, too - the only good thing about this MU is that T.E.S. isn't that fast as belcher. Generally steamrolls this deck any aggro-control and aggro strategies, has a fair chance against control and will most likely loose to combo.
About the Deed Split: First of all, together with Mox Diamond you should be able to reach four different colours easily :wink:
The split between Deed and Explosives seems to be a nice idea, in the earlier days I played always 2-3 Explosives so that a split didn't come to my mind. Worth testing, at least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joon
Don't worry ^^
I have play against Landstill 4c and i find a very good matchup even if they counter your burning and even if they extirpate your Life from the loam; I play with Genesis and with Volrath's Stronghold which are able to recicle my creatures and put my oppontents in serious trouble; (in sb I play extirpate which is very usefull against control and sometimes against combo)Quote:
Originally Posted by Joon
About Mox i don't like it very much even if is a very powerfull card: CotV, disenchant, Deed, E.E are able to destroy it easily; And so i think that is quite difficoult to obtain 4 colour using it;
All IMO..
First off I must say I really like this list and can't wait 'till we actually can see the C. Crusher in action. Like said before, I would also at 3 Firestorm i've played them in Wild Zombies myself and when put into the right deck the card is really insane. Second why should you play thoughtseize main and duress side, I think it would be better for the combo match-up to play hymn to tourach instead of duress. And third what is the advantage from thoughtseize above duress in this deck? There are not many creatures you can't handle, you have an answer for Tarmogoyf namely: Tarmogoyf, Terravore and Countryside Crusher and for the smaller creatures you have firestorm and devastating dreams. And for the combo match-up, I can't think of any creatures which are played in combo decks which would win them the game in an instant when it hits the table. So in my opinion it would be best if we move duress to the main instead of thoughtseize and put hymn to tourach in the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
Deed is a powerful card indeed, but does not have a good synergy with this deck unfortunally. You will destroy your own moxen (wich is broken with Devastating Dreams), destroy your Seismic Assault and your creatures. Remember this is an AGGRO Loam and Deed works better in control decks. You have Burning Wish to tutor answers for enchantments and arctifacts, besides, I also run a single copy of Crime/Punishment just because is a pretty versatile card and you can quickly answer tolkens if you don't find an EE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joon
About the discard, both Thoughtseize and Therapy >> Duress in this deck.
Make sure you have some lands in hand or an active Life from the Loam with countryside crusher on the board, once you play him you'll never draw another land again. This can be very bad if your opponent plays armageddon effects.
@Lemuria: I'd like to see some arguments, it's easy to say you want to play those card, but why do you want to play those cards?
A teammember of mine is a good and active Lands.dec player, the only disruption for combo he plays is sideboard 4 chalice of the void. And it makes his combo match-up insane good, if it works for Lands.dec it should definetly work for this deck. And besides that we have a better clock so with that much presure it should work very well.
Certainly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnarok
Well, we already know that our combo matchup is not good but this deck can pretty much wrecks anything else. For that reason, the 2 life points of Thoughtseize is not relevant, and being able to pick a Tarmogoyf, Confidant, Meddling Mage, Tombstalker, MONGOOSE (well, you got me) is what makes this card better then Duress.
As for Therapy, this is more a preferencial issue. I like the idea of removing more then one card in one call, and the ability to flashback is even more broken (I'll never be afraid to sac a Goyf or a Vore if I have to), as it can completly empty your opponent's hand. Also, it has a better MU against Combo then Thoughtseize or Duress.
I'm still testing Thoughtseize vs Therapy though. So far, as I said before, Therapy has won me more games, but if I really need to, I'll exchange them for Thoughtseize and maybe run 1 or 2 Therapies in my wish board.
I think you are right about adding cabal therapy instead of thoughtseize or duress, it would make the combo match-up pre-board better. Post-board I would probably still go for 4 chalice of the void but I haven't tested it yet.
Cabal therapy in the main is probably making the deck a bit harder to pilot because you must know turn 1 on the draw and turn 2 on the play what kind of deck you are facing. But let's skip that part that's just experience and knowledge of the meta. The most important thing is when you are facing a combo-deck what to name with therapy. For T.E.S I think it's the best to go for the tutors and then for the acceleration. For SI the best thing in my opinion is targetting the draw-fours and for Belcher you should probably simply hit belcher first and then empty the warrens or burning wish, because they don't have any kind of draw. Solidarity needs a different approach and I don't know what is best do you rip there hand from the start or after their turn 3 so you can set a clock in the very early game.
This is what I was playing last time I decided to toy around with this, the reason I stopped working on it was because it had such a tough time getting around Cbalance (Kind of the reason its not seeing much play in Extended), and wasn't spectacular anywhere else (It didn't blow anything out of the water, from my testing). Keep in mind, this was about two months ago, and I haven't tested since. Nonetheless.
// Lands
4 [A] Bayou
2 [ON] Barren Moor
1 [A] Savannah
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [UNH] Forest
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
// Creatures
4 [OD] Terravore
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
3 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [JU] Genesis
// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
Sideboard is pretty random, the main reason for white was Swords and Gaddock, as Gaddock is pretty hot v Landstill. Sensei Top is really hot in this deck, especially with Confidant. 3 Wasteland/1 Nantuko Monastery. I figured I wanted one more win condition, and having a recurabble one seemed better than the 4th Wasteland (People are playing better mana bases). Shriekmaw is really hot, getting around Cbalance, and hitting everything except Confidant.
White over Red: I'm not sure if this is right, but I felt at the time of my testing that it was, I may be wrong though. Terminate seems pretty hot tbh. Seismic Assault is also almost always a must counter (unless you have Cbalance out, heh).
Not saying that your deck is bad or anything, but it's completly different from Aggro Loam with a different playstyle. Maybe it will be proper to discuss your list in the Life From the Loam [ATW] thread.
Here's the GWB list I am running now:
Mana: 24
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Volraths Stronghold
2 Forest
Creatures: 20
4 Mongoose
4 Mongrel
4 Goyf
4 Terravore
3 Witness
1 Genesis
Disruption: 12
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords
4 Plague
Utility: 4
4 Loam
However, I see no reason not to drop the white for red once Morningtide becomes legal. Here's the list I will run once it comes out.
Mana: 27
4 Mox Diamond
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Creatures: 19
4 Wild Mongrel (dude, seriously play this guy. In my bgw list he IS the best creature there, better than goyf and terravore.)
4 Goyf
4 Terravore
2 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
4 C. Crusher
Disruption: 7
4 Thoughtseize
3 Therapy
Utility: 7
4 Burning Wish
3 Life From the Loam
The sideboard will be something like this:
1 loam
1 therapy
4 e. plague
3 grip
5 more wish targets.
Let me know what you think.
Seriously, run Devastating Dreams. This card is so strong in this deck, even with all your critters. against Aggrodecks it's just a Wrath from that you can recover easily (LftL and Stronghold plus Witness/Genesis), against Control an Geddon (from that you can again recover easily with LftL) and against Aggrocontrol it's just both. Dreams is another "Counter me or loose"-card in this deck.
I'm not sure if such heavy recursion (Witness AND Genesis AND Stronghold) is necessary. I'd cut the Genesis as Stronghold does the job, too and add the Tabernacle. Even with 19 creatures you can afford the drawback! It prevents aggro and Aggrocontrol also from recovering after a Geddon/Dreams.
Just my 2,34 cents.
I don't think the deck needs D.Dreams in the main at all. You should already beat other aggro decks due to the sheer size of your creatures. Against control you have the recursion as well. The deck needs a better combo matchup (hence the 7 MD discard spells.) I personally have never liked D. Dreams either against thresh/control due to the fact that if they counter it they just 4/5 for oned you. I'd rather have the wish -> tsunami play instead. I think one D.Dreams in the board though is good enough.
Have you give Dark Confidant a try? Granted, your build will incur quite a bit life loss if you do include him. In my build I don't have Thoughtseize MD.Quote:
Originally Posted by zulander
How are those Therapies treating you? Have you though about putting some creature remove in its place instead? Maybe something like Terminate/Smother.
Eternal Witness, I know it can recur anything from the 'yard, but Unearth seems like a good fit in her spot. Nice to bring back creatures for 1 mana.
Your land configuration seems a little off, the most color you need is Green. Granted, you do have 4 Tranquil Thicket but they should not count total lands you need for mana.
Well I am going to test this list for a while, it has a pretty aggresive approach and that's what I like about this list. I'm not going to discuss card choices here because that's done enough. But feedback is always welcome.
Spells: (35)
4 Countryside Crusher
4 Terravore
4 Goyf
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Seismic Assault
3 Life from the Loam
3 Devastating Dreams
3 Firestorm
4 Burning Wish
4 Mox Diamond
Lands: (25)
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained mire
3 Forgotten Cave
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
2 Bayou
Sideboard:
1 Life from the Loam
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Reverent Silence
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Pulverize
1 Deathmark
1 Hull Breach
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
Aggro decks run more than 11/12 creatures. If you don't run more than that then you're probably playing loam control.
I agree with the decision to drop white for red. However, this cuts you off from StP, and while Burning Wish can usually fill this role (and I recommend dropping to 3 Wishes as I've found two in the opening hand too slow) I highly recommend at least two Shriekmaw. I suspect they will be devastating in your list in combination with the Stronghold/Genesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by zulander
As for your board, red improves your Goblins matchup (via dreams and that new beater) and Wish reduces your dependence on Grip. I'm not saying that the board shouldn't be 4 Plague, 3 Grip + Wish targets, just that you should now reevaluate since you can Wish for Devastating Dreams, Shattering Spree, and Reverent Silence.
Other than that, the list looks pretty great.
For everyone: I'm not sure I understand the love affair with Therapy here. I realize the great power of the card, and its synergy with dredge, I just don't understand how it's a great tool against combo. Too many combo decks go off before you know what they are, and even if you know exactly what they are you whiff on the first swing more than half the time, and since we don't run many (or any) 1cc creatures, flashing it back ASAP is often a problem. Lastly, the reason I love Duress and TS over it as combo hate is that you get to SEE the hand before choosing what to grab. This is often very important knowledge in order to grab the card that cripples them most (for example if they are holding two win cons but not so much fuel).
Still, I know how great a card it is, that's why I choose to run it as a wish target. The fact that it can be flashed back and wished for again without ever clogging up my hand in bad times is fantastic.
Lastly, something I'm not sure about. Ever since I've dropped Exploration (a while ago) I've been loving Wasteland less and less. Maybe I'm just playing against decks with really good manabases, or fast game plans or something, but I've been feeling that it often has been stifling my development, without crippling the opponent in a significant way (except against Landstill). I've been trying out 2 Mishras and another fetch in the three slots. Thoughts?