[OLD] UGr Threshold

Here is the built that I am currently testing, like I said I'm testing Strategic in the draw slot 13 and 14 (after Brainstorm, Serum and Predict). So far the card quality resulting from Strategic planning and Predict as been excellent...Don't get me wrong Mental note is quite good to but does not generate card advantage the way Predict does... Also here do not forget that red enables you to play Magma jet in order to set up your predict to further reduce the risk of randomness and generate card advantage. I know I'm currently not playing them because of the testing of SP in their usual spot. I also upped the number of daze to 4 to support SP.


3- Flooded Strand
4- Wooded Foothills
4- Volcanic
4- Tropical
1- ISland
1- Mountain
1- Forest

4- Werebear
4- Mongoose
4- Fire/Ice
4- Lightning Bolt
2- Strategic Planning
4- Predict
4- Brainstorm
4- Serum
4- FOW
4- Daze
2- Counterspell
1- Isochron
1- Fledgling

SB:
3- Pyroblast
2- Pyroclasm
2- Rolling Earthquake
3- Pithing Needle
2- Tromod Crypt
3- Naturalize

@The Marco: I like your build a lot (although I still question Stategic Planning, but I wouldn't ever tell you to play Mental Note. I just have a hard time with a 2CC Sorcery) but I've never played 4 Fire/Ice. Are they just super in your meta, or do you like them in general? I swear by Magma Jet in my Red thresh, and I feel like even a 2/2 split could make your Predicts a lot better.

Hum... Interesting... a 2/2 split, you know what I never thought about (no sarcasm), I've always thought that Fire/Ice were so good that I never tried cutting them (card versatility and advantage). But Magma Jet on a Scepter is not too shaby either especially when playing predict... I'm gonna have to try that. As far as the SP, I'm gonna test some more this weekend but so far (about 20 games against a variety of decks) I've been extremely pleased, especially when on the play and casting them turn 2 with counter back up (it does happen quite often). If on the draw I usually cut them if playing against fast deck.

Remember that the red version has 8 or more ways to deal with creatures so its not always that bad to tap out turn 2 for SP (you have 4 Daze and 4 Force of Will also to back you up if anything crazy comes up).

What are you going to do when something important hits? Ice it? Survival of the fittest, Sword of fire/ice, Jitte, and others wreck you on turn 2. Relying on Daze and Force just isn't enough.

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Originally Posted by wastedlife

What are you going to do when something important hits? Ice it? Survival of the fittest, Sword of fire/ice, Jitte, and others wreck you on turn 2. Relying on Daze and Force just isn't enough.

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2- Counterspell

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I guess he missed that part.

That and all of the card drawing and quality in the world that helps you find the counters, so ten should be plenty.

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Originally Posted by wastedlife

What are you going to do when something important hits? Ice it? Survival of the fittest, Sword of fire/ice, Jitte, and others wreck you on turn 2. Relying on Daze and Force just isn't enough.

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I get your point but I do play 2 counterspell and post side all the cards you named can be stopped by needle. I mean people play portent and serum turn 1 or 2 often.

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Originally Posted by The Marco

I get your point but I do play 2 counterspell and post side all the cards you named can be stopped by needle. I mean people play portent and serum turn 1 or 2 often.

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Yes, but those cards find Force of Will/Daze. Fire/ice and Magma jet do not. I'm a gro player myself, I know the SB has needle. But 2cc sorcerys that force you to tap out on a fundamental turn are bad. Also drop scepter, one bonus Gro/Threshold has is it has nothing to needle. Scepter is often a 2 for 1 for you're opponent, not to mention the card in Gro/Threshold is a win-more.

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Originally Posted by wastedlife

Also drop scepter, one bonus Gro/Threshold has is it has nothing to needle. Scepter is often a 2 for 1 for you're opponent, not to mention the card in Gro/Threshold is a win-more.

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Baaah but having a Scepter resolved with no Needle is soo much fun!!!:laugh: But Bryant does have a point, Needle is for the most part a 2 for 1 and it's a straight kick to the balls. Having no relevant needle targets is a definite plus, as it limits sideboarding resources against threshold. I don't play Threshold, but some solid testing and results would aid in figuring out the true usefulness of Isochron Scepter.

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Originally Posted by wastedlife

Yes, but those cards find Force of Will/Daze. Fire/ice and Magma jet do not. I'm a gro player myself, I know the SB has needle. But 2cc sorcerys that force you to tap out on a fundamental turn are bad. Also drop scepter, one bonus Gro/Threshold has is it has nothing to needle. Scepter is often a 2 for 1 for you're opponent, not to mention the card in Gro/Threshold is a win-more.

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Ok, ok I know all that about the scepter, the fact is very few deck play needle main deck and they won't board them in if they did not see my single copy of the Scepter. If I played it game one, then I usually side it out (they'll bring in their needles, which become pretty much dead cards).

As far as SP is concerned it's not a definitive, but I gotta tell you its been working wonders for me. Very rarely have I been screwed but playing it, I'm not saying everyone should play 4, but with 2 copies and by playing them carefully they make a nice addition to the deck, at least in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by The Marco

Ok, ok I know all that about the scepter, the fact is very few deck play needle main deck and they won't board them in if they did not see my single copy of the Scepter. If I played it game one, then I usually side it out (they'll bring in their needles, which become pretty much dead cards).

As far as SP is concerned it's not a definitive, but I gotta tell you its been working wonders for me. Very rarely have I been screwed but playing it, I'm not saying everyone should play 4, but with 2 copies and by playing them carefully they make a nice addition to the deck, at least in my opinion.

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A 1 of that doesn't dramatically effect the game doesn't belong in gro. Not to mention it's mana intensive, the sooner you realize this the better. What is specter better agaisnt that a 5/5, firebreather? Why have it in the deck if you're just going to SB it out? Stratigic Planning is a cantrip, correct? Can we all agree on this? Why wait until it's "Safe" or "Carefully play" a cantrip? Cantrips are meant for the eary turns in the game, to build/sculpt you're hand. If you're waiting to cast a cantrip is it really worth it when you cast it? If it was an instant it'd be better. But you should never have to wait, that is my point. A 2cc sorcery that only draws 1 card, doesn't belong in gro, neither does Scepter.

[QUOTE=wastedlife;85196]A 1 of that doesn't dramatically effect the game doesn't belong in gro. QUOTE]

Hum... Have you tried Scepter before??? How does a recurring source of damage for 2, or tapping any permanent and drawing or... you get the idea...does not affect the game dramatically. The dragon is good but easily killed (please here don't give me the so does the scepter answer...People still play more creature removal than artifact hate). If your opponent manages to resolve a large creature, Ice every turn can save your butt.

What kind of an effect do you think counterbalance will have on this deck? Maybe magma jet and portent can be added to help better deck stacking for counterbalance? Right now im testing it in the sideboard and it is a BOMB against combo. This seems especially good because we don't have mage like the white verstion. As such we obviously have a worse match against combo. So, any thoughts on the effect that counterbalance will have?

Marco, scepter is a nubbish card. It really is that simple. Bad players will see scepter as an unlimited source of amazingness and that simply isn't true. Maybe in a pure control deck like Keeper or U/w Control it's golden, but in Aggro Control? Maybe in a Zoo-esque deck, but with Counters? We've all tried scepter before. We've all played it and gotten rid of it. You would be wise to do the same.

I disagree. Scepter is pretty solid. Dragon is a beat stick, but it often means your in race mode. Scepter allows you to control smaller aggro decks (Gobs, Angel Stompy, RB) alot better. It does make you scoop that much harder vs. Pern. Deed though. Scepter is a 2x (replacing the 9th and 10th creature slot). So when people SB in Pithing needles, it becomes a pretty narrow card. Yes, the can still name your fetchlands with their extras, but them SBing it in does significantly delude their decks. Worse comes to worse, you can always Brainstorm back your scepters. I use to play 2 scepter MD and 2 Dragons SB so that I keep peopleing guessing. I just never, ever SBed in the Dragons though...
Scepter makes your gobs, Angel stompy, and slower combo match-ups alot better (imo).

Counterbalance? A friend told me it fits well in thresh. In his testing, it didn't do enough though. I never tested it... I'm interested in seeing any results anyone else might have had with the card.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

Marco, scepter is a nubbish card. It really is that simple. Bad players will see scepter as an unlimited source of amazingness and that simply isn't true. Maybe in a pure control deck like Keeper or U/w Control it's golden, but in Aggro Control? Maybe in a Zoo-esque deck, but with Counters? We've all tried scepter before. We've all played it and gotten rid of it. You would be wise to do the same.

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Thanks "master" for your detailled explanations (sarcasm) as to why the Scepter is such a bad card. (Very subtle way of you telling me you think I'm a bad player... it hurts so much (sarcasm again)...)!

Ok some of you dislike the Scepter others think its a bomb, I'm not saying that everyone who plays Thresh should play 4 copies fo this. If you've notice, I play a single copy of the Scepter and one copy of the dragon. I'm just not that impressed with the dragon and I'm looking for alternatives. Bardo on a different forum shared its concerns with the dragon as well... My point is that the scepter is a card that not that many decks can handle pre-board, especially if backed by counters, while the dragon even if very powerfull can be dealt with with more ease. What alternatives are there to the Dragon?

Trygon Predator, Burning-Tree Shaman, Serendib Efeet, Sea Drake, or Troll Ascetic.

Those are perfect alternatives to Dragon, it just depends on your metagame. Theres probably more, but I cant seem to remember then at the moment...

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

Trygon Predator, Burning-Tree Shaman, Serendib Efeet, Sea Drake, or Troll Ascetic.

Those are perfect alternatives to Dragon, it just depends on your metagame. Theres probably more, but I carnt seem to remember then at the moment...

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I don't think those alternatives are that good. First, Trygon Predator is a 2/3 flyer which in a lot of situations don't trade with a lot of creatures in the format. I do see it as maybe a sideboard card in the deck, but can't justify playing it in the main deck. Second, Burning-Tree Shaman is a nice body in a 3/4 for 3 mana, but I feel is ability is going to be hurting you also throughout the match.

Third, Serendib Efreet is probably the best choice listed about, but I'm not a fan of a 3/4 flyer in an aggro control deck which clock is not that fast. Taking a point of damage every turn can sometimes cost you a game if you can't finish your opponent off in time. Fourth, Sea Drake is a very good creature for 3 mana, but its setback is bad news for Gro since you want lands in play in order to control the game. The other worry with the creature is at his toughness at 3 which can be easily killed by a lot of removal spells in the format.

The last choice of Troll Ascetic is decent, but I feel that the double green in its casting cost and regeneration ability is very mana instensive for the deck. I rather be playing spells rather than regenerating him every turn.

If you really dislike Fledging Dragon that much, I would remcommend just playing some more draw or library manipulation effects. 10 creatures is ideal, but 8 creatures with 12 burn spells seems like it would also work. That also puts a lot of decks on a quick clock.

I top 2 split a big Minnesota tournament today. I was debating between scepter vs. Dragon prior. I ended up playing scepter b/c it wouldn't be expected. By the end of this tournement, I realized why scepter is good. It makes the deck less vunerable to the hate cards (i.e. Crypt).

All of these reasons are why I feel like Scepter would be a better board card than maindeck. Scepter maindeck gives decks a chance to use their random maindeck hate like Pithing Needle or Disenchant, which will randomly show up in maindecks. In the White thresh mirror, you'll give them a good use for their Pithing Needles, which are otherwise mostly dead.

After game 1, people will have boarded out their artifact hate/pithing needle and/or not boarded them in. They'll bring in a lot of graveyard hate, and Scepter will give you an out against overwhelming hate. It sucks to see a sideboarded Leyline of the Void hit the board turn zero, but swinging with 1/1s, unloading a bit of burn, and finishing them off with an unexpected Scepter could be a good strategy. *Shrug*

SBing in general: I play against LftL and Slide decks and my favorite SB tech is winter orb. I dropped a winter orb on a WG LftL/Slide deck today and he just picked up his cards (there was a werebear, and a goose out though :B).

I am not sure if this version of thresh is supposed to beat those type of decks without anything special or not but I saw the match as being less than an easy win and chucked two in my SB.

Scepter debate: I keep trying to decide about scepter myself, but why aren't we just boarding in pithing needles vs. crypt,furnace, scrabbling claws, witherered wretch(there is also between 8 and 12 ways for him to die so he is a non issue) and not worrying.

I just find needle to be an answer to almost everyting that makes my life difficult (except blood moon and back to basics) so why bother with scepters when we can bring in needles and keep our game plan exactly the same. Unless they have a lot of creature kill.

BTW: I also find that reccuring wasteland is mildly problematic because I could not hit a delta or my basic island (I was brainstorming, and serum visioning away but to no avail).