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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Totall agree, Grunt does not belong in this deck. I am looking for another creature to replace the Phage's. Isumaru is a no, same a phage 2/2 for one mana, I would rather have the phage because it is easier to cast. Elite is worth looking into though, 2/3 for 1 is ntb. The Brushhopper is being replaced with Spectral Lynx, I know that Doran makes it a 1/1 but the Pro Green and Regeneration is hard to pass up.
Why jotun grunt doesn t belong into this deck???
Looking at the tier one decks
against threshold jotun grunt>anurid
against breakfast same
against loam decks same
against ichorid same
against any deck playing green with tarmogoyf same
against tog same
against fish same
against standsill same
Now decks where he does the same things
against teps ( i mean a three casting cost creature is really slow...)
against belcher
against aluren
where he is worse
faeris stompy
stax decks like(and sometimes he can protect you from wasteland lock)
goblin
but you can still continue to think jotun grunt doesnt belong in this deck that s your choice....
I am not questioning the effectiveness of Grunt, he is a great dude. I will do some testing with him, but I really need a creature that is going to stick around for more than 3 turns. I really don't like to include Goyf and Grunt in the same deck either. Grunt really limits the size of my Goyf's and are not very reliable early game.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Has Wasteland been performing well for you? It seems that when I don't have it backed by Vindicate/Sinkhole/Stifle, it's just a tempo sink for me. If you cut those out, you might be able to smooth your manabase out some with a few basics.
Both decks can win before Grunt can do anything. Especially against Breakfast, it does absolutely nothing because they can just combo out before your Grunt can do any damage to their yard.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
The only cards I don't really like in the deck are Carnophage and Aether Vial. I'm not sure why Vial is needed in a deck list this. I would rather run another creature or removal.
Try something like this:
-1 Treefolk Harbinger
-4 Aether Vial
-4 Carnophage
+1 Vindicate
+3 Smother/Ghastly Demise
+1 Land
+4 Nimble Mongoose
Just a thought, let me know what you think?
i agree with nickrit, vial only works in decks that either do other things with their land (goblins), are curved very well (goblins), or have alot of creatures at the same CC (slivers, weird builds of SUI Black).
More threats would be better and I think the goose is a good one, gives you a good answer to lackey.
I agree regarding the vial.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
I don't see why you dislike the Harbinger. The ability to tutor for forest duals seems really nice. I was looking a the deck and thinking:
+3 Harbinger
+1 Strange Inversion
And maybe
+1 Rootgrapple
Harbringer is worthless without Doran (who can get sworded / smothered / countered, etc). Don't play bad cards because they interact with good ones, unless they win the game. And tutoring for lands is not worth wasting one card to not even put it into your hand.
You probably realize that as you're playing only one.
Carnophage offers nothing more than Isamaru (more on that below) : you're playing Stronghold in a mana-demanding deck just to return a 2/2 on top of your library, it's meh.
Mom provides evasion on top of protection and it fits the curve very well. It is nasty to both Threshold and Gobs, as well as other randomness. I definitely think it belongs in there.
The Lackey aspect of Gobs shouldn't be the main focus : you may lose to a turn 2 SGC but it doesn't happen so often. Isamaru and Swords answer it and this deck's creatures are so much bigger than gobs that I have confidence in the matchup. If you're worried, just pack Plagues in the side.
I like the Lynx too but it is the most open slot to discussion in my list.
Given the low curve, I think Aether Vial is not so good as it can be but it fixes mana well, so it could be worth testing. Another problem, though, is that they take slots : if they take land slots, you open yourself even more to gobs's land disruption ; if they take business slots, you lose threat density.
I've also ended up with 4 Vindicates, on which I count to kill Tarmogoyf or whatever nastiness that may pop up.
I've got Gaddock Teeg over Duress, which is in the side, because it works as a threat.
Between Isamaru, Doran and Gaddock (3 of each), I've also ended up including Okina, Eiganjo, Karakas and *maybe* Shizo.
Harbinger is simply better than Doran, it fetches itself, Doran, mana fixes, and even removal if you are smart enough to play Crib Swap or Nameless Inversion (which is also combo with Doran, as it works as a -3/-3). You also can have a special tech against slivers with Shields of Velis Vel*1 (or mirror entity) in SB (but it's poor I know).Quote:
Harbringer is worthless without Doran (who can get sworded / smothered / countered, etc). Don't play bad cards because they interact with good ones, unless they win the game. And tutoring for lands is not worth wasting one card to not even put it into your hand.
According to me Harbinger is THE reason to play Doran.
Edit : And I forgot, it can just work as a shuffer if you play top (you can choose to search or not, that is to say to shuffle or not). It is also a good blocker of lackey, mishra, isamaru, confidant, meddling mage, ...).
The Harbringer "special tech" costs 2 cards : the card you fetch is only put on top of your library. If using two cards to get rid of one creature was any good, I'd rather use Contagion anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
Using Wall of Wood in aggro is not the right call, even if it allows you to put a Doran or average removal on top of your library. Neither is using SDT for that matter.
For God's sake, people in this thread are even talking about using a 5-mana Stone Rain / Disenchant, at sorcery speed, in freaking Legacy just to convince others that the Treefolk Harbringer is good. Doesn't that point to something wrong ?
It's not a wall. It's faster a 3/3 than a mongoose would be.
It's very rare to be able fetch for any instant board removal, a big guy or a biland. Even if it's not directly in hand, it's really huge. It's not card advantage, it's card quality first of all.
By the way the removals are instant.
You run Doran because he's a 5/5 for 3 mana that can synergize with other efficient beaters (Birds, Goyf, Descedent of Kiyomaro, etc).
You don't run Doran because it suddenly turns all the dead threats in your deck into non-dead threats.
Thats just my humble opinion. Basing your entire deck around a very removable creature in legacy doesn't make sense.
Doran should help pull your deck...not carry the whole thing.
Thank you Dwarf, I have said this exsact thing in 4 diffrent threads now. Doran is a beater, he is a 5/5 creature for 3 mana. I do admit it would be fun to swing with all those 0/3 or 0/2 creatures, but not in legacy. The Harbinger is sweet with or without Doran, it fetches a Bayou, Savannah, forest, or Doran. Its a one of right now and may get bumped to a 2 of when I drop the Carophages.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDrunkDwarf
A legendary 3-color creature with no evasion is more often useless than a 1CC creature that fetches everything you might need that can block and can eventually become a beater. You might want a full aggro deck and deny such cards like harbinger because it's not a beater by itself, but it's not legacy neither.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDrunkDwarf
What about a 3/4 to 4/5 for 2-mana with no evasion and even a slight weakness to graveyard hate ? Is it also inferior to Treefolk Harbringer ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
Wow this looks very similar to a deck I've been tinkering with, though mine is a bit more disruptive and bit less aggressive. Just for reference...
Threats
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Hidden Gibbons
3 Spectral Lynx
The threat count is low compared to Sacearuse's list, but it certainly has quality; umezawa's jitte helps to speed up the clock. I personally find that gibbons are almost always a 4/4 for 1, but in match-ups where they aren't useful they get boarded out.
Disruption
4 Root Maze
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
I have a more robust disruption base, with root maze and cabal therapy in addition to duress and thoughtseize. Therapy is also handy for ridding myself of dark confidants that have become too dangerous to my life total.
Utility
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle
3 Umezawa's Jitte
Because I'm running root maze, pithing needle becomes much more user friendly for hitting fetch-lands. Swords is just too good not to run, and jitte is...well jitte.
Mana
4 Land grant
4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Savannah
3 Vesuva
Land grant helps to replace the fetches I'm not running, but I usually try to strip counters away first with a duress/therapy/thoughtseize before using it. Vesuva can easily become extra wastes, copies of duals, or (on rare occasions) spot removal for legendary lands. I have yet to experience serious problems with my mana base, and if necessary I'll hit wasteland with a pithing needle; I can get by using mine for mana.
Side-Board
3 Krosan Grip
3 Vindicate
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Yixlid Jailor
3 Kataki, War's Wage
Grip and Vindicate are both solid side-board cards with a great deal of utility. Teeg is still experimental (but great against EE, Belcher, Empty the Warrens, Force of Will, and Wrath), while jailer and Kataki are metagame dependent.
I haven't tried Doran out yet, but I'm leery of running any 3CC threats given the fact that I already run confidant and thoughtseize, and he makes my lynx and confidants less useful as beaters. I'll certainly have to give him some consideration though; an on-color 5/5 for 3 mana isn't too shabby.
I also have to agree with those who have voiced their dislike of running goyf and grunts together in the same deck. The last thing I want to do is drop a grunt and watch my tarmogoyf wither away, only to lose the grunt a couple turns later.
Hmm...not sure about the therapies with the low threat count here. I'd try something like this for discard:
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
3 Gerrard's Verdict
The lifegain on verdict also helps offset bob and thoughtsieze
If I was really interested in more lifegain (I do run jitte), I'd run loxodon or necravolver before I ran verdict. I'd much rather have lifegain that actually furthers my gameplan (disrupt hand, impede mana development, and finish with beats).Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDrunkDwarf
Therapy isn't perfect, but I'm not playing it for the flashback. Think of the flashback more as an emergency back-up. It's only going to be flashed back IF my confidants pose more threat than benefit, or combo match-ups where the extra disruption can be a godsend.
Other possibilities include Hymn, Augur of Skulls, Smallpox, or Smother, but I haven't had the chance to test them yet. Smallpox seems promising, and plays to both the discard and LD aspects of the deck, plus it can kill opposing threats, and off confidants that have lost their usefulness.
How long do you really a need a confidant for to gain significant card advantage? 2-5 turns is about all that I want them for normally. Playing life-gain allows you keep them on the board for longer, but I'd rather play disruption or threats at that point and seal the deal, than run cards just to keep drawing more cards. If I expected to see more burn that might be a different story, but until then, I'm not a fan of verdict.
But to get back to the OP and the originally proposed idea, does Doran actually even deserve consideration in a BGW deck configuration? I'm not seeing anything I'd cut in favor of him. Maybe he's just not good enough.