Printable View
Aggro Loam having a Perish in the board (WTF ? More than half of its own creatures are green...) was also unlucky. But generally, I think the deck can sometimes run out of steam if it doesn't get Survival or good Messengers...which is why I'm currently testing three Talara's Battalion to support Vanquishers with the beatdown. I'll let you know how it goes.
What about Banefire, from Conflux? You've got access to red, and given the amount of mana you run, X should always be greater than five. Hitting your opponent with an uncounterable Fireball if you stall seems like a good play.Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
The downside, obviously, is that it's not an Elf. Sideboard, maybe?
I really think we should play 4 natural order and 1 progenitus(10/10 protection against all) in sb.
It helps the aggro-loam matchup a lot and should win the game on his own which has been a problem for me. It is also good against red threshold which packs clasme in sb, and which is quite hard.
I have given up for the combo matchup, even with 8 cards in sb you still have a bad matchup. With eight cards in sb you can bet to win one game but not 2 out of three. ADN is much harder than ichorid or belcher to disrupt.
I have been testing the deck with timberwatch elf and without the white splash and like it a lot. The deck can still kill turn 3 and a lot of turn 4 kill. I don't think the combo is needed. I don't play neither wirewood symbiote cause I want to play only elfes in the deck and I hate revealing them with messenger. I am for the moment trying 2 tribal forcemage and 2 boreal druid. I have found that the deck ALWAYS wants a turn one elf and I don't want to mulligan cause I haven't got it.
I'm playing a Boreal as well, but I think using just two slots for Symbiote and Ranger, who can do useful stuff on their own, is worth the ability to combo out and kill the opponent in one swoop (and I haven't done it without any of those two so far).
Regarding Timberwatch: Is it better than a Lord, considering it adds the same total amount of power to your board but can't be used the turn it comes into play ? Or do you play eight Lords plus the Timberwatches ? It's true that the deck can have problems punching through big creatures though...
He is sometimes better than lord. I am playing 3 ranger which have are really good with timberwatch and imperious perfect(2 token a turn). Just think you have four-five elf with a quirion ranger and a timberwatch you are sure to make 8-10 damage only with timberwatch (untap effect of quirion ranger). I play 8 lords + 4 timberwatch yes. Timberwatch is my main kill. I can't see playing the deck without it.
Hey Di,
I have been playing survival for over a year now and after reading all the survival threads on here you seem like the expert on the deck. I recently played your 4 color list with swords and Bob and loved it, I really like the fact that you could win with the deck without even drawing survival. So thinking that I would have a similar feeling about your new list I put it together, and so far I love this list as well. I just have a few questions about side boarding.
For Reference here is my current list and board:
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Anger
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wood Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Mirror Entity
20 Land
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
5 Forest
3 Wasteland
On the main board I do not think I would change a card, everything has been useful one time or another. Vanquisher seems like the weakest slot, In testing the only thing I want is a graveyard recursion ability. I plan on testing -1 Vanquisher +1 Genesis.
Current side board
3 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Choke
3 Absolute Law
1 Caller of the claw
If you could give me an idea on side boarding in the key matchups that would be great.
Thanks Mystic
GUYS!
For those who are iffy with Absolute Law for protecting against Pyroclasm, Bolts, Devastating Dreams, we got a new goodie from MTGS spoiler for CONFLUX
Mark of Asylum 1W
Enchantment
Prevent all noncombat damage that would be dealt to creatures you control.
This is good stuff. We're out of burn's reach finally and the Aggro Loam matchup should be easy. Also, no more getting pissed with Symbiote being bolted :D
So from what does it protect other then the things absolute law allready protects us from?
Lol good point. I guess absolute law is better since you can block crushers, gobs.
I guess you can prevent damage from Pestilence/Crypt Rats? XD
Yes Timberwatch Elf is better than Mirror. A simple R/G version is sturdier and doesn't need wood elves.
Plus Timberwatch is always my main threat. Whenever it hits the board my opponent tries everything to get rid of it. It's an absolute beast. Mirror is more clunky and mana expensive to function. Timberwatch is much more smoother and consistant. It does more than a Lord usually. What I found is that this deck doesn't rely on "mass attacks" Rather, It needs to focus all the power on specific targets for maximum success. When your elves get pumped by Lords alot of times you don't even use that bonus to attack becuase the elves are still too small and simply not worth being lost, or it is already being tapped for other abilities. So alot of the power generated by the lords gets wasted. Timberwatch on the other hand, can focus all the power on an unblocked creature or spread to power to where it is relevant.
On the other hand, Timberwatch can get weak on it's own when your deck is out of gas. But then again so do the Lords and Mirrors. I still prefere it over mirror though.
p.s if you're running timberwatch 4 Quirion Ranger is a must. simply too good. and helps the fragile manabase too.
I disagree Xenos.
For the same Mana cost, Mirror Entity does so much more than Timberwatch:
It acts as lord 9-10 and pumps everything. Things get a little insane if you have a priest. Timberwatch would be amazing if it gave trample, but it doesn't. For the same manacost, Timberwatch only pumps one creature, and requires Symbiote/Ranger to pull of higher pumps. It's probably only useful with Messenger (trample). No one will leave a pumped elf unblocked if it didn't have trample with Timberwatch in play.
But more crucially, Mirror Entity has insane synergy with Priest and Symbiote. I've won without Survival just with Symbiote, Priest out and swinging for a good 6/6 with 4 elves. With Survival, you win. Without Priest/Symbiote, it still acts as a solid beater, and is much better in topdeck mode with an empty board than Timberwatch is. Timberwatch is very situational to the number of elves in play. Whereas Mirror gets more bonus if you have more creatures and more acceleration, it's not needed. It can sometimes swing as a 6/6 all by itself.
GR is a more stable shell, but I rather play GRW since post sideboard, we have access to cards like Gaddock Teeg, Orim's Chant and many more anti-clasm cards (e.g. Absolute law)
It comes down to this:Quote:
Originally Posted by crz87
2 Mirror Entity + 1 Wood Elves + Savannah
or
4 Timberwatch Elf
Playing Mirror comes with a luggage of weak cards.
Playing Timberwatch comes with potential of not doing much by itself.
I've tested both, both have pros and cons. You've already explained Mirror Entity for the most part; I'm just gonna talk about Timberwatch:
Timberwatch looks alot worse on paper than it does in practice. Lords don't do much on their own either, and Timberwatch is basically a Lord. I still believe the deck does better by focusing its power on specific targets rather than spreading it around to every creature. Heck, I might sound crazy, but I think Jagged-Scar Archers would even be better than Elvish Champion if not for its Forestwalk that is so essential.
Of course, you don't pump before blockers are declared, that's would be a mistake. That's the key thing that makes Timberwatch strong, it's difficult to block your elves with the versatility of pumping any one of them according to how they're blocked.
Random example.
lets say you have 3 elves and a lord. vs a 4/4 defender if you attack you will probably lose an elf and do some damage. but with timberwatch, he would be foolish to block. And he ends up eating all the damage instead while you lose nothing at all compared to using a normal Lord. This is typically what happens when I have a timberwatch.
If he has mulitple defenders such as a goblin deck, then you might reach a stalemate with a normal Lord, happens often. But with timberwatch, you can always attack with at least 1 creature no matter what because if he chooses to block ,he is guarenteed to lose more than you would. so they usually dont block, and the timberewatch gets all the damage through whereas a normal lord's pump couldn't without losing more material.
Just a random example to illustrate how it functions. this is why I believe spreading the pump around with normal lords is weaker than focusing the power on speciific targets, ala Timberwatch. It doesn't need messenger. On it's own it's weak, thats the bad point about it, though I still believe it is better than Elvish Champion as a Lord, which also does close to nothing on its own. if there's no forestwalk, that is.
My main problem with Mirror is the white splash, there must be equally good sideboard options provided in G/R, it just needs to be discovered. I get color screwed often enough that I prefere not using Mirror Entity at all.
I like the discussion on this deck.
Seems like we got 2 versions of this deck.
The one with Mirror Entity (white splash) and the one with the Timberwatch Elves.
Could you post a decklist of the one with the Timberwatch Elves?
I would never and I really mean never cut white in this deck. You can debate about the use of Mirror Entity or Timberwatch Elf, but still even if I was to play without white maindeck, I'd still consider Savannah's for the sideboard options.
In G/R, you have absolutely no sideboard options against Combo (to supplement Thorn). The only thing decent is Pyrostatic Pillar and that kills us even faster than it kills combo.
Even if you want to let go off the lost cause which combo is (which I have seen several people do), there is no replacement for the gamesaver called Absolute Law. That card would have won me the game last weekend against Aggro Loam if only the guy didn't pack Perish in his side along with Burning Tutor (I know, wtf. But the common logic of him having half his win conditions in green didn't stop him from playing it).
Also against Burn, Goblins and Goyf Slight this is a card you really want to play.
here is the list I am testing :
4 fyndhron
4 llanowar
2 boreal druid
4 priest
3 quirion ranger
8 lords
4 timberwatch elf
4 messenger
3 tribal forcemage (testing)
1 zealot
1 squee
1 anger
4 survival
11 forest
4 wooded
2 taiga
Sideboard :
4 natural order (aggro loam, all decks with red but gob)
1 progenitus
10 others cards
You don't need white to have an answer to combo, you have trinisphere (you can play it turn 2 with 10 elves), null rod and chalice of the void, thorn of amethyst which are very good.
I would like to ask what your main strategy against Aggro Loam, Goyf Slight and Burn are.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Aggro loam is really hard game one, try to race them it happens, and don't forget to return a land with quirion ranger after DD. After side natural order => progenitus =gg.
You can race burn usually the winner is the one who starts. The deck can kill turn 3 and lots of turn four kills. If you really fear them play one wellwisher in sb gaining 4+ life is usually enough. Against goyf sligh they usually have to burn your creatures, and you are faster or as fast as them, you don't fear anymore PoP(no white splash). The problematic card is grim lavamancer which can be a pain but if you have a timberwatch elf active you don't fear anymore their removals.
Any competent Burn or Goyf Slight player (or one who knows the matchup) knows he has to burn away the early mana-elves. In which case you won't be faster than them, you will actually lose so much speed you won't be able to restabilize fast enough to defend the fast beats which usually folow.
Wellwishers won't help against that, they make up actually very nice additional targets after they've killed your mana elves, if they are even worth the effort with you having an empty board.
I haven't tested Natural Order yet, but I can't imagine it improves the matchups enough to drop cards like Absolute Law and Gaddock Teeg (against Fireblast). And even if it improves it enough so the matchup will be 50-50, you will still have lost game 1, making the rest of the match a total gamble.
Wow, I have a lot of stuff to respond to.
@ Arguments for Timberwatch Elf.
I've gotten in a couple heated discussions with this over the past few days. It's making me want to rip my hair out. The arguments for Timberwatch Elf are really weak compared to the alleged disadvantages of running Mirror Entity.
For starters, compare them both on their own. Mirror Entity is the strongest card in the deck by itself, although that could be debated with Imperious Perfect. But still, Entity will always push you ahead in an aggro matchup. It is an enormous threat on its own because it turns all available mana you have, which will always be a lot, into an issue for the opponent. It makes all your guys huge, not a single one. Take for instance you have 3 lands in play, Mirror Entity, and 3 Llanowar Elves (or Fyndhorns, whatever). You can attack with all creatures and pump them to 3/3 for 12 damage, or make them 4/4 and attack for 12, or maybe 5/5 and attack for 10. If that was Timberwatch Elf, you could either attack with 3 1/1 creatures and pump a single one to make it a 5/5, or pass the turn because your team is entirely weak. If you have Priest of Titania in play, then the point obviously goes to Mirror Entity.
The only possible occasions where Timberwatch Elf is superior is if you have have very little mana to use and a plethora of creatures in play, which is incredibly unlikely given that over half the deck is mana production, and that you also have a Quirion Ranger in play. Otherwise, there isn't anything beneficial about it. Timberwatch makes a single creature a threat, or Mirror Entity makes all your creatures threats. The fact that is requires white mana isn't a reasonable consequence at all; you run fetchlands and will almost always have access to white mana. Besides, white should be in the deck regardless for sideboarding purposes. If you want to completely pack it to combo that's fine, but there is no better alternative than Absolute Law outside white except maybe Bubble Matrix, but that's another argument. Fact is, Mirror Entity turns a weak team into a strong team, and Timberwatch will keep a team weak unless you have a Quirion Ranger or something to complement it. It is weak when you're in topdeck mode or are facing a post-Wog/Clasm situation, and the fact that it can't be used immediately is a serious problem. Entity activates the turn it comes into play. How many situations have you guys been in that had something along the lines of turn 1 Elf, turn 2 Priest + Ranger, turn 3 Entity, add lots of mana, swing for like 10? It is more consistent that Timberwatch Elf, offers more speed, and allows you to push through much easier in other aggro matchups.
Plus, trying to defend Timberwatch in the place of a lord is awful. Lords are not there solely for pumping, they have other uses. Forestwalk is powerful in 75% of the matchups you play. I win a ton of matchups to that alone. And Imperious Perfect's token generating ability is absolutely critical in aggro and control matchups. They also offer protection against Engineered Plague and potential protection against Pyroclasm and such if you're able to get multiples in play. Timberwatch Elf offers nothing against hate nor does it have any value beyond that of any of the other creatures in question.
What?Quote:
Playing Mirror comes with a luggage of weak cards.
It comes with....Savannah, a land that is already going to be in the deck for sideboard purposes, and Wirewood Symbiote. Every single Elves list has run Wirewood Symbiote whether it ran Mirror Entity or not. Wirewood Symbiote is weak, true, but it offers amazing utility beyond Mirror Entity. It is mana acceleration, protection from removal, and allows Messenger recursion. It would be in the deck if I wasn't running Mirror Entity either way.
Don't dismiss Natural Order -> Progenitus just yet. I've been testing it out in here and have had amazing results. Not as a sideboard option, but as a maindeck card. It gives the deck even more flexibility, and outside Wrath of God or a combo deck killing you, there aren't like any outs for other decks to deal with it. It is this format's version of Tinker -> Colossus, and it fits perfectly into this shell. It's only the matter of figuring out what to cut for it. It's ironic I just got into that tirade above, because in all likelyhood the Entity aspect of the deck would be cut to make room for the 5 slots necessary. I don't know, it's kind of difficult, so a lot of testing will tell. But realize that it is a huge thing for green decks to get this, so it's seriously worth looking at.Quote:
I haven't tested Natural Order yet, but I can't imagine it improves the matchups enough to drop cards like Absolute Law and Gaddock Teeg (against Fireblast). And even if it improves it enough so the matchup will be 50-50, you will still have lost game 1.
While I don't necessarily dispute Mirror's technical superiority when comparing it card-to-card with Timberwatch, I probably should have made it more clear it is my desire to cut white completely from the deck that leads me to my decisions. It DOES make the deck a heck lot more inconsistant, sure, you can run Wood Elves, but that's another weak card. it is not as though Mirror is just strickly better than Timberwatch. I always get wastelanded and stifled to 'bolivion. The games I lose are often the games where I'm mana screwed, by far. not by whether or not I have timberwatch/mirror. And that's the weakness of this deck: the fragile mana-base. Quirion Ranger has probably won me more games than I realise. I am in favor of solidifying the manabase above all else, and I feel adding a 3rd color just weakens that already frail manabase. The games I win with Mirror comes with games I lose to color/mana screw. Then again, games I win with strong manabase comes with games I lose with solo-timberwatch. Though I am not convinced either build is significantly better than the other, I still prefere R/G for the stable manabase. Sideboard can start with something like this:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyest
? Caller of the Claw?
Red is another huge weakness of this deck, and Absolute Law is just the perfect answer, I know. That is the only justification for running white. The combo hate aspect from white is unnecessary, it doesn't really give you that much of an edge when I've tried. I'd rather just give up odds and race them and save sideboard for something else. There must be a good sideboard options for R/G, I'm not convinced that white is the only option. I'm just too lazy to do the research but I'm sure someone else can.
Progenitus is an interesting card. It would in fact be too soon to overlook it. This just might be the answer for all that Red hate we've been looking for. Should be tested anyways.
Since Thornweald Archer was discussed as an answer to 'Stalker, maybe
Intrepid Hero 2W
Creature - Human Soldier
Tap: Destroy target creature
with power 4 or greater.
would fit in, which I think is superior to Archer. NOT an Elf, but doesn't matter that much as long as you stay above 32-33 Elves for Messenger. Hasted with Anger, and better on the offensive when it clears out annoying blockers. The deck doesn't have any removal otherwise, and dealing with 'Noughts (trampling over Archer) or defending Goyfs/'Stalkers can be annoying.
The underlined part on your post explains why he wouldnt be played, he just seems janky and narrow, most elves list recenty have dropped thornweild archer completely, and replaced him with a 3rd vanquisher. If your worried about nought, play a viridian shaman, if there are alot of flyers in your meta, just stick with thornweild archer.Quote:
Originally Posted by georgjorge
...if you're worried about BOTH, and want to kill 'Goyfs and 'Vores while you're at it, play Intrepid Hero :smile: .Quote:
Originally Posted by murderface
I also don't get why not being an Elf automatically makes a card - as a 1-of to be tutored for with Survival - unplayable. We also play Magus of the Moon as a 1-of. Not getting pumped by Lords isn't that imporant for an utility card, so the only worry is Messenger.
Maybe in the side then? The main consistency argument against it is that sure it's just one card, but we've already got several other critters that aren't elves. The bigger that non-elf stack gets, the worse a lot of our effects get.
Besides, Intrepid Hero is a terrible card. 2W for a 1/1 that isn't an elf, in this deck, is bad. That card would be so dead in many matchups. At least Thornweald Archer is a decent creature in it's own right, and deals with Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker just as well.
EDIT: Have you tried using Vexing Shusher as a 1of post board? It's only really strong use is to answer Counter-Top with a Survival on the board, but a solid card in alot of matchups nonetheless. Could always be just another Choke, or Harmonic Sliver or something. Wasted slot? What are your thoughts on Chameleon Collossus? It would just feel satisfying to run into that random black deck at a turnament, and have a very strong bomb to tutor for early.
So di, how do you feel about boarding such against dreadstill, taking out survivals to bring in grips. I have been testing and have liked running seven lords and 3 vanquishers, it gives us a better early timewalks against goyf and also the merfolk that seem to be rising in popularity...Vanquisher has just been too good and i haven't missed the lord spot at all.
Also, after boarding out survivals against red blue dreadstill, i found his fisrt turn play was needle on survival, it won me the game because he wasted it.
I just read through the whole thread and afterwards searched my cardpiles for Elf-cards.
There I found a little guy called Elvish Harbinger. Isn't it equal / slighty better than the Wood Elves everyone seems to hate?
Pro:
+) He generates mana of every color
+) He puts the Elf you want on top, even without Survival.
Con:
-) You don't get a land for further permanent use. (but opponents should have enough better targets for removal-spells)
Just a random thought, but I would like to hear your opinions about this.
It does not make your elves angry.
You should have enough fetchies to get hold of a Taiga, but you have a point here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
And test the deck and you will see the wood elves shinannigans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiant
Interesting creature this Elvish Harbringer.
Downpoint is that this Elf doenst filter your deck of one land.
Also you cant always use it right away if you don't have Anger in your graveyard.
You could use this Elf instead of 4x the Llanowar or Fyndhorn, so you have the ability to cast every color of mana you need, its a slightly tougher elf (2 instead of 1) and you can manipulate your draws.
Sounds interesting.
Another point I would like to bring up is how bringing back Glimpse of Nature would help this deck or not.
Glimpse is a terrible card IMO. Long before I read this thread and learned there was such a thing as Elf Survival, when I was playing my own version of Survival + Glimpse Elf engine, Glimpse was easily the worst card. It relied on resolving 3 cards to go off, and even then it was not consistent, not to mention the deck is dead if either piece of the combo is missing. I can understand how it's good in Glimpse elves (which IMO is a much inferior Elf deck compared to EPIC Elf Survival), but in our deck, we have no way to continually cast creatures without untapping Priest, and there's a limit to that with Symbiote.
Di! Any idea on possible deck progress? The list on starcitygames seems to be really tight and optimized. I've been considering on dropping to 16 lands and upping the ESG to 4 copies for help against storm-based combo with turn 1 Thorn.
My current sideboard is:
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Choke
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Absolute Law
2 Krosan Grip
2 Chalice of the Void
I think the deck's main loss is against Aggro Loam and combo. I tried Chalice against combo. 2 in the SB has been good, although I might be interested in running 3 Chalice, 3 Thorn. I would board out 1-2 mana elves, 2 quirion ranger and some elves against combo and hope to Chalice/Thorn turn 1 with mulligans. That is why I'm asking if running 16 lands and 4 ESG destabilizes the mana-base. It has been less optimal but it should improve the combo matchup by a lot.
And as much as we're dismissing Intrepid Hero, he really does do everything against huge creatures. He has the same weakness that the deck doesn't want though, i.e. dies to everything and isn't an elf.
I have been testing 3 natural order and 1 progenitus maindeck. I have found it to be very good. Lots of decks scoop to it. Though I don't know if it improves our bad matchup, but it should improve aggro-loam and others decks packing firespout or deed. It is a four card Oups-I-win against all the aggro control decks and it is counterbalance proof. I am trying to find a way to beat goyf-sligh without the white splash. Has anyone an idea ? There is
harmony of nature (2G tap one green creature gain 4 life) which may be good but I haven't tested it yet.
Wouldn't Wellwisher be better if you wanted to gain lots of life?
Just so im up to date, so this build has dropped squee altogether? Also, has wizards changed the errata on ESG, does it count as an elf? Other then that, i am liking the recent builds, they are real fun to play, and pretty competitive
Squee is easily the weakest card in the deck. The deck doesn't need CA as the traditional Survival lists do. The CA in the deck comes from resolving Messenger, not Squee. Squee takes so many turns to set up and abuse, and is fitted more in a controllish/comboish Survival build. This deck is a more aggro focused build. Squee is too slow for it, and doesn't synergize with the tribal, and more importantly, doesn't synergize with the needs and goals of the deck.
ESG is a spirit Elf, which is why we're in discussion whether to play 3-4 copies since flipping ESG after Messenger is much better than flipping lands.
I disagree: spending one additional green mana to get Squee out of your library is much less clunky than having to chain Messengers or than eventually running out of gas.Quote:
Originally Posted by crz87
When playing this deck, you can distinguish between two main situations, regarding Survival:
- Either you drop some mana-elves early, drop some beaters and only then draw into Survival. At this point, you're usually somewhat low on cards in hand, especially on creatures, since you deployed them all to the board in order to be able to go aggro (and maintain said aggressiveness in the face of removal, blockers, and disruption). If you don't play Squee, you now have to waste your first turn or two (depending on how many lands and/or Priest of Titanias you have in play), after drawing and playing Survival, in order to get a Sylvan Messenger - otherwise Survival would be no good as it would be no more than an overpriced Eladamri's Call (which is only good on rather rare occasions). After resolving Messenger, you'll again have to waste some mana around 2 turns later, as you deployed the creatures you got out of it to the board, or ditched them to Survival - once again, you loose tempo. Compare this to just getting out Squee on your first turn and starting to drop some additional fat right away, and being able to conte to do so afterwards, without any further investment - it is just plainly better because it's less mana intensive (compare the one-time investment of G to the repeated investment of 3G) and gives your opponent less leeway to disrupt you.
- The other possible situation is you having Survival in your opening seven. In this case, you're going to drop a mana-elf on your first and Survival on your second turn. At this point, spending one mana to fetch a Squee doesn't make any difference as you're going to spend a full turn to set up Survival (i.e. fetch Anger and Priest of Titanias or Rofellos + Quirion Ranger) anyway: the one mana doesn't make any difference but allows you to play more aggressively later due to, once again, not having to fetch expensive Messengers to sustain Survival.
In synthesis, the Card Advantage of Squee is a mere benefit: it's the fact that playing Squee lets you play more aggressively (as in "playing without wasting tempo every so many turns") that makes playing him superior to not playing him.
The fact that he's not an Elf is irrelevant as you're still going to have around 30 elves in your deck which means that your Messengers are still better than the oh so feared Goblin Ringleaders - the one game out of a dozen you get one card less out of your Messenger is irrelevant if compared to aforementioned drawbacks of not playing Squee.
Also, with Squee, you make sure to never run out of gas with Survival on the board whereas in a Messenger-only-build, counters and random stuff like land destruction, removal on your mana-elfes or Humility will be able to disrupt your active Survival, giving the opponent free outs to an otherwise game-breaking enchantment.
Also, hardcasting Squee is not half a bad move... especially since Elf-Survival has a nasty tendency of not having many outs to tall guys anyway.
The probability of Wellwisher surviving against a deck with 12+ Burnspells and postboard access to Pyroclasm is close to non-existent - and even if it does survive one turn, it won't be that great due to you always being low on creatures against Goyf Sligh: if your opponent knows what he's doing, he's directing all of his burn onto your guys, killing your mana-elves (especially Priest of Titania) and your blockers like mad, and just relying on creatures to deal damage - this way he slows down your development (you're pretty much dependant on mana-elves) which buys his creatures more time to swing in and therewith makes up for the loss of reach his burn would otherwise provide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero
Natural Order + Progenitus, does, in fact, make a good addition to the deck - it's not about being good against hate or anything: it is good because it adds more power to the deck. This is important because otherwise you're dependent on Survival and Messenger to win games (it's not like playing fair with mediocre beaters and some random synergy wins any games against anything)... and 8 cards are not exactly something you have reliably in a deck with no draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Do play 4 Natural Orders, though - they're just that solid (as in 'unrestricted Tinker-Colossus' solid).
On Squee; on thougher match ups i miss squee ... Especially if the opponent can stall you enough and get rid of your early critters, i find myself relying often on my topdeck (hoping it will be a messenger) ... therefor, I'm considering to put squee in (not sure what will go out, but I am not super impressed with the vanquishers).
On natural order/progenitus: this looks nice, but what do you cut from your deck then? I'm just afraid that it will alter the deck too much ...
Would it be standard to include a gaea's blessing in side? Because in my experience the painter matchup is bad ...
Thanks for any comments ;-)
From my experience, so far I haven't really needed Squee (I've mostly been playing against monored Goblins, Imperial Painter, Fetchland Tendrils these days).Quote:
Originally Posted by Teumie
Typically, I've actually found the Messengers to be not as useful in general since I'm usually trying to combo out and I'm pitching them to get my combo pieces together.
Which Painter matchup are you talking about, Teumie? I've played against Imperial Painter quite a bit and haven't found the matchup to be too terrible (they can sometimes randomly win against you, but you tend to be more consistant and post-board, you have a lot of nastiness you can bring in).
Vanquishers have been hit or miss for me. They're amazing when you're trying to aggro out on someone since they'll beat up smaller guys like Bobs and Goblins. They'll also trade with Goyfs as well, which is a huge bonus. Other times I've had them in hand and just pitched them to Survival to try and combo out, so I can't really say I've ever been disappointed to see one.
on Squee: i missed him during a particular matchup against survival/rock. after you run out of your first creatures and he can delay you enough, I found myself in top deck mode ... I haven't played with a squee yet, so I'm only guessing that it would help me, especially since later in the game, one extra green mana is not gonna make the difference ...
on that painter matchup: it was terrible in that sense that he was more consistent than me (once he had his painter +grindstone + 3mana, it was game).Especially since he knew what to counter in my deck, which resulted in me not really being able to go off ...
on the vanquishers: sometimes they are just great, but in most cases (i.E. gobo's, bobs and goyf) i like a lord more (especially with forest walk) to just go aggro. It is a great creature, but the deathtouch ability is only useful in a few matchups imo.
I also found it very difficult (to almost impossible) to go off on turn three ... mostly it is 4 or 5 with me (unless I'm doing something wrong or forgetting something).