What if you take out 1 of Frogmite/Worker/Orni/Enforcer?Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
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What if you take out 1 of Frogmite/Worker/Orni/Enforcer?Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Since my meta is combo free, I was looking for a card to replace the four Chalices in the board, something useful against Trygon Predator but not completely dead versus other decks. Right now I'm playing Thoughtseize, wich has been "meh" so far, slowing down the deck too much. Any idea?
If trygon predator is the problem (which is quite strange) you could play some sort of creature removal, like Executioner's Capsule or aether spellbomb/echoing truth. Capsule helps the Painter's and Breakfast matchup if they're present in your meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfrago
You could even play welding jar, which can also be good in the combat phase, against deed/EE/disk/wasteland and (non-split second) disenchant effects.
If those decks/cards are not present and predator is not that huge then Thoughtseize remains the overall better card.
Trygon is not that big of a problem but, you know, sometimes it wrecks you.
Guess I'll stick with 'seize. Maybe later on I'll try Capsule or Deathmark...
..Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
How about playing a card that's better against Dredge... Heap Doll anyone? You get a 1/1 so it's not always irrelevant, as it keeps your curve, and dredge actually can't win with it out, and if you have vial at 1, same thing as they probably won't play around it game 1. Essentially you are getting a worker + a card that makes you not roll to graveyard effects, all in one.
BTW, 3/3 split on vial and drum is awful. 4 drum is absolutely essential from what I've found, as you are trying to be explosive, not slow and clunky. This also allows for more options (mana fixing, etc). Atog is the actual stone nuts most of the time, as is fling. These cards make you not stone kold to combo decks as you can apply disruption with therapy as well as the ability to race them with tog and fling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jujuhawk
As Zappa stated, the problem is not only Dredge, but a lot of other decks/cards. Heap Doll is good against Dredge and Breakfast, and can sometimes slow down Loam. Sure, Doll has a body to work with, but Relic is also re-usable and draws a card (which is likely to draw you something better than a 1/1).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappa
The split between vial and drum is made to lessen the diminishing returns on both cards. 2x or 3x drums sucks. 1-2x drums+1 Vial is better. If you feel comfortable with a 2/4 split or even a 3/4 split it's right.
Atog and fling are not worth it, as stated in the primer: both are non-artifacts and open the deck to X for 1s in opponent's favor, and are also of an off-color.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
@ Jujuhawk
Even though I prefer Tormod's to all other gy hate in Affinity (although, a single relic in place of a crypt hasn't been bad), Relic is ~10.3345x* times betters than Heap Doll for the side slots devoted to GY hate, even against Dredge. Dredge can still win just fine with Heap Doll in play--the same cannot be said for Relic or Crypt.Quote:
How about playing a card that's better against Dredge... Heap Doll anyone? You get a 1/1 so it's not always irrelevant, as it keeps your curve, and dredge actually can't win with it out, and if you have vial at 1, same thing as they probably won't play around it game 1. Essentially you are getting a worker + a card that makes you not roll to graveyard effects, all in one.
Relic can be constant pressure, and when you need to blow, it does the whole GY with a cantrip. Removing Bridges against Ichorid isn't enough. Clear the GY, or don't even try. Heap Doll seems decent against Ichorid, but in testing you'll find that Relic is still much stronger. Not to mention, Heap Doll just gets worse and worse compared to relic against all other GY-based decks.
I'd also like to point out that Heap Doll is merely 50% of a Worker when another artifact creature is in play.
I get to quote myself (that is always fun):Quote:
BTW, 3/3 split on vial and drum is awful. 4 drum is absolutely essential from what I've found, as you are trying to be explosive, not slow and clunky. This also allows for more options (mana fixing, etc).
Vial is nearly as explosive as Drum, and Vial remains explosive in blue-based metagames where Drum may or may not. If you think Vial is slow and clunky, then you are playing in a metagame where Vial Affinity doesn't belong (or you simply haven't tested to card against a standard Legacy gauntlet).Quote:
The general rule for the deck: Where Vial Affinity deserves to be played, Vial deserves to be played. If Aether Vial is somehow a terrible choice in a specific metagame, then Vial Affinity is a terrible choice in that specific metagame. You are playing in a metagame that is simply too fast for Affinity to be competitive.
Aether Vial is not an optional card for optimal builds of Vial Affinity. With that said, the exact number you can run is optional. Because there are diminishing returns to the card and we have access to Drum, 3 is an acceptable minimum. Others may run 4, and that is also very acceptable.
...
If you goto 4 on either card [Vial or Drum], Vial should be first.
3/3 and 4/2 splits on Vial/Drum are the correct choices if you are playing 6 accelerant slots, and 4/3 Vial/Drum if you are playing 7 (some go all the way to 8, but that is obvious).
GreenOne's response + ___Quote:
Atog is the actual stone nuts most of the time, as is fling. These cards make you not stone kold to combo decks as you can apply disruption with therapy as well as the ability to race them with tog and fling.
You are going to lose to combo. Don't run awful cards like Fling/Atog because it gives you a small shot to play a faster deck than normal Vial Affinity against combo. Accept your losses and play a better deck against the metagame where Vial Affinity belongs, or don't play Affinity because you are facing combo.
peace,
4eak
*there is a 86.3% chance I made this number up
However, Heap doll doesn't cost 2 to play and activate, and if your list of "having trouble with" cards contains mongoose and werebear, than that says alot about the list in general. Losing to threshold is embarassing at best, and the same goes for stuff like aggro loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
Heap doll is a creature, and isn't a completely dead 2 mana cantrip in most matchups.
Reiterating your former statements is bleh, as it's not as up to date as it should be. Vial is SO slow. Of course drawing 3 drums is awful, but 3 vials isn't any better, so your argument is null. 4/2 split is I think what my friend is playing, and I fully believe that with a full set of thopters, springleaf drum is the best card. This card allows you to run out most of your hand on turn 2, and it fixes your mana, which gives more options when you turn to things like sideboarding and splashing cards. Vial starts getting online turn 3/4, but with drum, your hand will likely be on the board by then, rather than sitting on a vial and hoping to slow the game down and get there in the late game. IMO this weakens you vs. counterbalance decks, as it gives them time to dig for crucial removal, and putting pressure on immediately is far better than vialing dudes out on turn 4.Quote:
I get to quote myself (that is always fun):
Vial is nearly as explosive as Drum, and Vial remains explosive in blue-based metagames where Drum may or may not. If you think Vial is slow and clunky, then you are playing in a metagame where Vial Affinity doesn't belong (or you simply haven't tested to card against a standard Legacy gauntlet).
3/3 and 4/2 splits on Vial/Drum are the correct choices if you are playing 6 accelerant slots, and 4/3 Vial/Drum if you are playing 7 (some go all the way to 8, but that is obvious).
I can't believe you just said that. "You are going to lose to combo. Don't try to beat combo."Quote:
GreenOne's response + ___
You are going to lose to combo. Don't run awful cards like Fling/Atog because it gives you a small shot to play a faster deck than normal Vial Affinity against combo. Accept your losses and play a better deck against the metagame where Vial Affinity belongs, or don't play Affinity because you are facing combo.
peace,
4eak
*there is a 86.3% chance I made this number up
This is by far one of the worst things I've heard on this forum. This deck doesn't HAVE to punt to combo decks. It's a bad matchup, yes, but you have outs available. FlingTog is one of your best outs to that matchup,giving you a chance to turn 3 them , and after board you have therapy which can buy you up to 2 turns possibly, and I have 3 stifles in the board for the deed matchups, which they are usually very unprepared for.
Combo is going to be in EVERY metagame, and if you're just going to punt against a very popular deck, than I don't know what to say besides have fun losing. I think with a correct list and good numbers this deck can shine in any metagame where rock isn't super popular. You beat up on the counterbalance decks, and most decks don't have hate for it anymore, besides the decks that have hate on accident. If I were playing in the GP tomorrow this and UGx tempo thresh would be my 2 frontrunners, one rewarding playskill, and the other to beat people that aren't prepared, which is the edge this deck has.
Reading is tech:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jujuhawk
It's not just a cantrip in most of the matchup, just because the majority of the decks are abusing the graveyard in his meta. Otherwise there would have been no reason to play MD graveyard hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappa
I'm completely with 4eak. You can't race combo with your occasional turn 3 win, just because combo is faster. We have a turn 3-5 while they have a turn 1-3. Maybe you'll win 1 out of 3 games, but considering you're almost always going to lose G1, the probability of winning both G2 and G3 is so low you shouldn't count on it. If you want we can actually have some testing session and I will prove it to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jujuhawk
Also, it's not like we're the only one siding cards against combo. Combo is probably siding Shattering Spree/Rebuild/Serenity against us.
Combo is part of any metagame, but this deck should be played where there's a low number of combo decks and a good number of Aggrocontrol decks. (Also, if there's an high number of blue aggrocontrol deck, one of Affinity best matchups, there probably will be a low number of Combo decks at the top tables).
By playing Atogs and Flings you open yourself more to spot removal and by adding Red to the manabase you open yourself more to LD and Wasteland.
Increasing the number of non-artifact spells also weakens your deck's core (Plating, Ravager, Affinity cards, MoE). So, IMO, you're basically running a more speedy deck that tries to go all-in, more than a deck full of bombs and must counters. This is likely to increase your percentage against combo by a negligible margin and decrease your results against control decks.
How's your list like? can you post it?
@ Jujuhawk
Heap Doll didn't make the primer for a reason: Heap Doll is jank in legacy.Quote:
However, Heap doll doesn't cost 2 to play and activate, and if your list of "having trouble with" cards contains mongoose and werebear, than that says alot about the list in general. Losing to threshold is embarassing at best, and the same goes for stuff like aggro loam.
I'm surprised you need further explanation about the qualitative differences between Heap Doll and Relic/Crypt against GY-based decks. You continue to overemphasize Heap Doll's body, and you continue not to recognize the cases where and the reasons why we would choose to play GY hate.
Losing a game to Threshold shouldn't be embarrassing. Threshold ALWAYS has a chance to win against any deck in the Legacy. You will lose some games to Thresh, that is a fact of life in Legacy. The proportion of games won and lost is what really matters in this case. Affinity still has an advantageous win/loss ratio against Thresh decks which aren't prepared to face Affinity, but having an advantage doesn't mean you are immune.
Lastly, there are other decks and other GY based decks besides Ichorid and Threshold with which we board in our GY hate. Your statements do not indicate you have taken this into account.
The statements came from the recently made primer. This is up-to-date. Feel free to read to it.Quote:
Reiterating your former statements is bleh, as it's not as up to date as it should be.
Before I continue debating Vial/Drum with you, please take the time to read the pages of text already written on the subject in both threads so that we aren't repeating ourselves. You're arguments are not new ones -- we've been over this topic several times.
Have you sat down and played 20 games against TES or ANT? Seriously, Affinity is atrocious against a competent combo pilot (admittedly, not so easy to find). The idea of throwing the combo match, especially as an aggro deck, is nothing new--this shouldn't be hard to believe at all. Even on this site, plenty of decks that aren't playing a blue control shell or very heavy hand/land disruption throw the combo match all the time.Quote:
I can't believe you just said that. "You are going to lose to combo. Don't try to beat combo."
peace,
4eak
It seems like you haven't even tested heap doll and you're just dismissing it. The card is actually insane. This isn't based on theory. Me and my playgroup have been playing this deck for 2 months in preparation for the GP, and some people are playing 4 MD. The card is a Worker, that can get dredge or random GY decks. Some of you are punting your MD game vs. decks when it's completely unnecessary. You have a chance VS these decks without having cards that are dead in other matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
Yeah, but their counterbalances and things are embarassing compared to your myr enforcers and those things. That matchup is this decks bye, and it's the reason this deck should be played.Quote:
Losing a game to Threshold shouldn't be embarrassing. Threshold ALWAYS has a chance to win against any deck in the Legacy. You will lose some games to Thresh, that is a fact of life in Legacy. The proportion of games won and lost is what really matters in this case. Affinity still has an advantageous win/loss ratio against Thresh decks which aren't prepared to face Affinity, but having an advantage doesn't mean you are immune.
Yes, I have. Heap Doll is just as good in these matchups. Breakfast, good. Dredge, good. These are the only other real GY decks besides Team America I guess, and I consider that deck pee, so that's kind of null.Quote:
Lastly, there are other decks and other GY based decks besides Ichorid and Threshold with which we board in our GY hate. Your statements do not indicate you have taken this into account.
Just dismissing this argument and saying "We've argued this before, I'm right, etc" isn't getting anywhere. You're being dense and alot of things I find wrong in this thread, that's why I'm arguing my points. Hurr.Quote:
The statements came from the recently made primer. This is up-to-date. Feel free to read to it.
Before I continue debating Vial/Drum with you, please take the time to read the pages of text already written on the subject in both threads so that we aren't repeating ourselves. You're arguments are not new ones -- we've been over this topic several times.
No, they aren't. Good decks don't "throw" matchups against a super popular deck (not that I mention good. Shit like zoo or whatever pee deck you'll use as an argument does not constitute good). Things like goblins have a chance, as they board in DI disruption. Playing good cards in your sideboard isn't a new thing to legacy, or maybe it is according to what I've seen so far in this thread. 4 Therapies in the board makes you not completely kold to combo, along with my 3 stifles. Not only that, but they beat your other bad matchup, deed decks. Rolling dead to such a popular deck is the worst thing you can possibly do. The matchup is obviously hard, but not unwinnable. Look, replace your pithing needles with stifles! That hits deeds AND combo! Unreal!Quote:
Have you sat down and played 20 games against TES or ANT? Seriously, Affinity is atrocious against a competent combo pilot (admittedly, not so easy to find). The idea of throwing the combo match, especially as an aggro deck, is nothing new--this shouldn't be hard to believe at all. Even on this site, plenty of decks that aren't playing a blue control shell or very heavy hand/land disruption throw the combo match all the time.
peace,
4eak
Dredge: Crypt and Relic are betterQuote:
Originally Posted by Jujuhawk
Aggro Loam: Relic is better. Heap Doll can just sometimes remove a loam.
Landstill: Relic stops EE recursion AND Crucible. Heap doll is likely to stop EE recursion OR Crucible.
Survival: Relic stops Goyfs, Squee, Anger, Genesis, Witness. Hep doll stops 1 of those. Doesn't stop goyf.
UGx threshold: Heap doll chumpblocks, Relic makes every opposing creatures suck.
Team America: Heap Doll chumpblocks. Relic makes goyf suck and prevent the opponent from playing Tombstalker.
It's the Fear: Heap doll takes away a loam, where relic shrinks goyfs, stop EE recursion and loam.
Stax: heap doll can take 1 land from the graveyard, where Relic stops crucible.
Relic has also a continuus effect that you can use every turn, where heap doll is single-shot.
There are a lot of deck that use the graveyard in legacy, and you considered so few.
Here's from the Goblins thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jujuhawk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nessaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathdealer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ectoplasm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
So, at least you have to admit there's other people taking the "ignore combo and win everything else" strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
It's not we're pretending to be just right. It's just that every month or two someone starts saying that vial is bad in the deck (I did it too long ago!). So every 2 months we have to say again the exact same things. That's why you can just read the last 10-15 pages of the old thread and THEN start again the discussion about vial if it they were not satisfactoy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jujuhawk
Evidently even with a new thread and a good opening post it's not enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Thread
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...hi09/welcome#1
Trial 9, etc.
And just because people don't try to beat combo doesn't mean it's correct :\.
EDIT: I don't know if you thought I was talking MD and SB, but I'm talking about MD Doll vs. Relic, and I believe in the maindeck heap doll is far superior, as it isn't dead vs. anything since it's always going to be an artifact creature.
Um...With that build, I'm sure he was anticipating combo. Quite a bit...
That's my exact list, he's a friend of mine. And if you had read the past few posts you would understand the choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pltnmngl
I don't get 3 things in this deck:
- 17 Lands with only 3 Citadels. There were no wastelands in the meta?
- 3 Masters of Etherium and 3 Cranial plating. Those are bombs that MUST be dealt with in a couple of turns or just lose. Why not play 4?
- Stifle in the side: with only 9 blue sources, why playing stifle instead of Needle? Is combo that present?the number of artifacts seems quite low G2 and G3.
- Lack of green. I guess nobody played nasty enchantments.
Heap doll can be justifiable in some metas. Hell, if you're not encountering graveyard based decks beside Breakfast and Ichorid go on and play it. But if your meta is filled with general grave based decks, then Relic is the way to go. That's why I was suggesting Relic to Zappa.
EDIT: which decks did your friend play against?
If you want to play Heap Doll, can't you just play Heap Doll instead of Arcbound Worker MD and then SB in Relic of Progenitus as well? Heap Doll just doesn't have the impact of Relic of Pregenitus or Tormod's Crypt post SB, so it seems more sensible to run a card with legs and disruption MD instead of SBing it in as your anti-graveyard tech.
I mean Arcbound Worker is decent, but if Heap Doll improves match up percentages vs tough match ups like Loam and Ichorid, I'd rather go with that.
1. That manabase is different from mine. I play 2 COB, no glimmervoids, 4 citadels, and no blinkmoths. The manabase is usually fine though.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
2. Cut in favor of less clunky cards, and outs to combo.
3. Your main-page list plays 4 Grips in the board and only 9 green sources. Your point? Yes, we're playing prepared for combo, and vs. the deed decks here needle just dies to their vindicate and buys a turn really, and it's very bad if they're ready for it. Plus stifle is good against combo, etc.
4. The only enchantment that's really bad for me is deed, and I have 7 outs in the board. Moat is not present here as no one has them, and cb/top isn't awful for this deck.
Hi!
At first place - big congratz to authors of this awesome opening post! Great job!!
I play very similar version of deck you mention. My only changes are -3 S.Drum; + 1x A.Vial, + 2x Paradise Mantle (in my opinion quicker version).
Now I´m testing version with white - 4 maindeck Ethersworn Canonist. I cut 1 Disciple (the most discutable for you I think), 1 Frogmite, 1 Thoughtcast and 1 Aether Vial (from my version with four of it).
And of course switch ToT for Ancient Den.
The pity of this solution is we have to give up split second ability of Krosan Grip and replace it in SB by Disenchatn.
My point of view is, that we need KGrip MAINLY (yes, Team America, Landstill,...) on the P.Deed in Rock-like decks - obviously no blue. And Disenchant is one mana cheaper - yeah, I know, KGrip is definitely and no question solution.
MD with Canonist is do good in my current testing. With cards I cutted, I increase my artifact count by two - which is often good.
I would like to hear some your suggestions, experience.
Have a great day!
Hi and welcome to Vial Affinity thread. Glad to know you took the time to read. 4eak and GreenOne spent quite alot of effort making it as detailed as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascal
Actually Paradise Mantle is outdated, and most decks have dropped the card for Springleaf Drum. I used to run mantle in my old build until I tried out the drum, I find the drum to be just all around better accellerating the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascal
I have another Vial Affinity build that's running a white splash instead of of a green splash as well. Canonist is a SB card, the only time I would see the reason for it to be run maindecked is when you are facing storm based combo decks. Which you should keep in mind that Affinity is not suited to be in a combo heavy field.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascal
That aside, canonist's body is too small for a deck that should be aggro. 2 mana for a small frame just wont cut it. There will also be several matches where canonist will cause some problems, since the card is colored. Adding more colored cards to the deck will make you a lot more dependant on color fixing cards. Which could lead to you holding back the card when facing hate, or when waiting for the said colox fixers. Holding back is something that Affinity just does not want.
The card's you are cutting from the deck are the some core cards that makes the deck powerful. Shuffle up the deck and play it against people and see for yourself.
I played this list in Chicago:
4 Thopter
4 Worker
4 Disciple
4 Ravager
4 Frog
4 Enforcer
4 Master
4 Springleaf Drum
3 Vial
4 Plating
4 Thoughtcast
4 Seat
4 Vault
4 Citadel
3 Ancient Den
2 City of Brass
Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
4 Pithing Needle
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Ethersworn Canonist
I went 7-2 Day 1 with just a single bye. I had some good matchups along the way. I was going to play the original list in this thread but after walking the room we decided to go with Ethersworn and the Thougthseizes. They were correct choices on the day for sure.
Rd 2, I win 2-0 over Dredge. Game 1 he loses because I drop Ravager before he can get off a good sized Breakthrough. Game 2 he keeps a hand with some hate but not enough gas. He Needles both Relic and Crypt in the first few turns and tries to win with just dredging on his draw step which is obviously too slow.
Rd 3, I win 2-1 over UWb Landstill. Game 1 I blow him out. Game 2 he Wraths my board before I can get enough damage in. And in Game 3 he taps out for a Elspeth on his 4th turn and I am able to kill him with a Master and a plated Enforcer with his only blocker being a solider token.
Rd 4, I win 2-1 over European Pro Manuel Bucher playing Uwb Faeries. Game 1 he mulls to 4. Game 2 a quick Jitte, thanks to a Chrome Mox is enough for him to stabilize. Game 3 he cannot deal with double Frog and Enforcer.
Rd 5, I win 2-0 over a Counterbalance-Based Gro list, with Bob, Goyf, and Dryads. MD smothers and Engineered Explosives almost get him Game 1 but I am able to get him to 1 life and I stop attacking and let his Bob kill him, even though he has Top out, he had drawn close to 11 land already. Game 2 was not even close.
Rd 6, I lose 2-1 to AnT. Game 1 he does what he is supposed to do and wins on turn two. Game 2 he mulls to 6 and I come out of the gates fast with a double Disciple draw. After the match, he tells me he had a Meltdown in hand to try and wreck my board but couldn't cast it without dying. Game 3 I am forced to mull to 3. All previous hands are unkeepable, but my 3 cards are, Seat, Den, Cannonist. Not too bad. We go land go until I drop the canonist. By this time my two draw steps have brought me another Cannonist and a Drum. On his turn three he Meltdowns for 2 to take my board. We go draw go for 6-7 turns. I never draw a land. He kills me eventually. If the Seat had been a Citadel, I would've come back. Tough beats, gotta move on.
Rd 7, I beat AnT 2-1. Game one I have a turn three kill on the play and he also had a turn three kill so thank god I win most dice rolls. Game 2 he goes off on turn 1. Can't do anything about that. Game 3 I get Duressed on turn 1 and he sees a Cannoist coming down. So upkeep he Chants me off a petal. Next turn he chants me again. The next turn he Chants me a third time. I have no problem with this because he has only 3 cards in hand the entire time. Eventually I get to play things and I play somewhere around 10 cards on turn 5 and kill him the following turn.
Rd 8, I beat Merfolk 2-0. The games were not even close in the slightest bit. I had the nuts of quad Frog in game two on turn two.
Rd 9, at this point I am 7-1 and a lock for Day Two, my opponent offers a draw as he is tired and needs food, I decline, wanting to be in prime position tomorrow. The top tables are littered with blue decks so I want to be at the top. Turns out he is playing a very anti-aggro build of Landstill with MD Propaganda. Prop slows me down too much Game 1 and I lose to Humility. Game 2 I regret not having Grips but luckily I dont get angry as he wastes my first two land drops so I never really am in the game.
7-2 was pretty good for Day One, my only fear was all the random decks I saw around the X-2 brackets.
Day 2
Rd 10, I win 2-1 against Belcher. I win the die roll and lead with Citadel, Drum, Thopter, Frogmite. Good start. He starts with SSG, Rite of Flame, ESG, Tinderwall, two blank Chrome Mox, Empty the Warrens for ten guys, he has the better start. I kill him turn three though with Plating, Rav and Disciple. Thopter beats! Game 2 he does his thing turn 1 and I am done. Game 3 I open a hand that can led with Seize or Needle, I lead with the Seize because my hand can not beat a big Empty. I see Empty, Belcher, and mana to play both, but not activate Belcher. He is three short. So I take the Empty and pass. He draws, says sorry, and plays the Belcher out and shows the LED he drew. Good thing he still had a Bayou in his deck because he hit me for about 10 damage and then revealed Bayou. I Needle Belcher and he loses pretty fast.
Rd 11, I lose 0-2 to Carlos Ramao playing Aggro Loam. Game 1 he Burning Wishes for Shattering Spree to take out all my creatures and slowly wins from there. Game 2 is pretty much the same except he Wishes for the same Spree 4 times thanks to my having to Relic his graveyard a couple times to keep him off Assult/Loam.
Rd 12, I lose 1-2 to Dredge. Game 1 he wins the die roll, mulls to 6 and leads with Tireless Tribe. I am in rough shape. All I have is a Worker and a pass. Next turn I will have Ravager though. I hope he doesn't kill me this turn. He doesn't discard a single dredge and just draws for turn. He then discards the top decked Gravetroll and casts Careful Study and Breakthrough to end me. Game 2 he keeps a slow hand that plays around the hate. I am forced to crack my Relic turn three with two Narco triggers on the stack and pretty good grave. He recovers quickly and gets a 21/21 Troll in play and about 7 zombie tokens. I have only a couple turns to do something. My board is 2 Frogs, Rav, Worker, Thopter, and Master. On his turn he attacks and I chump the troll and take 14 or so. Next turn I draw Thoughtcast, which draws me into Thoughtcast and Disciple, the next Thoughtcast gets me another Disciple which ends that game. Game 3 he mulls to 6. He leads with a Imp and I lead with Citdel into Relic. He pitches a dredger and a useless card to stop my Relic from being good. He has an okay turn with a dredger and a Careful Study. Nothing too great but he Dread Returns an Ichorid Making 6 Tokens, attacks for 3 and gets two more tokens. This is a tough spot. I am at 17 and he has 8 power in play. I have to Relic his graveyard next turn but my second land drop is only a City of Brass. I am holding two Frogmites, Ravager, and Disciple. I draw nothing and can do nothing but RFG his graveyard and drop a Disciple going to 16. He attacks me to 8. I draw and miss a land. An artifact land would've been golden there but I am forced to drop Ravager and do some bad trades. I draw another blank and extend my hand.
Rd 13-15 was all against Goblins. Nothing special here. I won one match and get blown out by the others. Its not my favorite matchup but it is winnable.
So 9-6 overall, after 7-2 start is pretty disappointing but I had a lot of fun with the deck. I believe if I got paired with more of the Counterbalance, blue-based decks, I would've done better on Day Two but I can't complain really.
The deck is very strong in the format as I see it right now. Especially with the Top 8 results. Minus the AnT deck in the top 8, they all seem like 50/50 or better matchups.
@ furt
I'm not surprised you faced Goblins (not just because it is an excellent deck, but because it appeared to be a decent meta choice). You wished to be paired against blue-based decks, and I'm sure the goblin pilots had the same train of thought. It is almost ironic that you got paired against them back to back to back.Quote:
Rd 13-15 was all against Goblins. Nothing special here. I won one match and get blown out by the others. Its not my favorite matchup but it is winnable.
So 9-6 overall, after 7-2 start is pretty disappointing but I had a lot of fun with the deck. I believe if I got paired with more of the Counterbalance, blue-based decks, I would've done better on Day Two but I can't complain really.
While I consider the Goblins match pretty close to even, I prefer to be the one playing Goblins intead of Affinity. Beyond the Goblin/Affinity matchup, I think Goblins does what Affinity wants to do, only better. I think Goblins has way more "oops, I win", a larger range of options, better CA, and more moldable tactics.
Goblins is arguably the greatest competitor of Affinity. Both decks exist to defeat blue-control, both decks have decent non-combo matches all around, and both are synergy aggro-combo decks.
If you could do the GP again, would you have brought Goblins instead of Affinity?
peace,
4eak
Its a tough question. I have played A LOT of Goblins. Goblins is a deck that got me to the Pro Tour before in Extended. Its a deck that got me to 9th place at Regionals in 2004 (it was a 500 man regionals tournament, 11 rounds), which is time when 60 percent of any Standard tournament was Affinity (both deck had access to four Skullclamps.) It has brought to a couple PTQ Top 8's and has brought me a couple tournament wins in Legacy. In short, I know Goblins inside and out. I know the matchups and I have a great feel for how most matchups go.
In any other format I would always prefer to be on the Affinity players side but in Legacy it is not the case. You said it right on the head, while it is not unwinnable and maybe not unfavorable, you just would rather be in the Goblins seat.
I would def play Affinity again if I had to do the GP over. I felt it was a great metagame choice and a lot of people underestimated its speed. I had more than one person on the weekend comment on how fast I killed, and sometimes out of absolutely nowhere. Its a deck that has its place and I liked my choices and I liked my sideboard as every card was pretty much relevant at some point on the weekend.
I'm leaning towards Thoughtseize too, in place of Chalice of the void.
I still believe some Disenchant Effect is needed by the deck. Did you miss Grips besides the landstill match?
How the hell your ANT opponent kept a hand with Duress+3 Chants against an aggro deck? Btw, how were the canonists? Seems like you boarded them in against just the 2 ANT decks.
@ furt
Ditto.Quote:
Btw, how were the canonists? Seems like you boarded them in against just the 2 ANT decks.
You did face combo 5 times:
2x Dredge (obviously no Canon here)
2x ANT
1x Belcher (Needle obviously, but did you run Canon here? )
Where else did you feel E-canon was worth boarding in? You saw Canonist in both ANT matchups, but how much did it really help? Do you think you faced a proper pilot in the ANT matchup you won? Or, rather, do you think you won in virtue of Canonist or in virtue of your opponent not playing/mulling correctly?
In my experience E-Canon's effect scales down very quickly as combo-pilot skill increases. E-Canon punishes poor-skill players dramatically, but hasn't been worth the sideboard slots (or color change) against a good pilot. There are few truly skilled pilots of combo decks, and that is definitely to our advantage. Should we bank on playing against combo pilots with mediocre skill? It seems plausible, but it certainly leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I generally try to beat expert pilots, not the average pilot of a given deck--but perhaps we should make an exception.
Lastly, why no Chalice? I see GreenOne might agree with the choice, so if either of you can give a good answer, I'd appreciate it. Chalice has won way more games against combo than Canon for me. Chalice is substantially easier to cast, it protects itself when dropped at 1, and when Dropped at zero it stops T1/2 shenanigans. I don't see why you would play Canon before/without Chalice if you wanted to combat combo. I run both automatically if I'm boarding against storm combo.
peace,
4eak
I don't expect to ever win against storm combo, so I don't justify the chalices just cause they're good in that matchup. The other matchup where CotV is useful is Threshold/Dreadstill, where I already want to side in Krosan Grip or Relic.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
Thoughtseize is good in the Control/Rock matchup Where it can take preentively (sp?) their EE, Deed or whatever. Same goes for the Stax, Dragon Stompy, etc.
Threshold is a nice matchup, I don't want to dilute my deck too much, 4 SB slots seems ok against them. Thoughtseize is an overall card that can be sided against a good number of decks when you don't exactly know what to expect.
If you have a more specific hint on your metagame, then you can drop thoughtseize and play Plague/Chalice/etc, I guess.
This is the reasoning that brought me to Thoughtseize. That said, it's still in testing.
I didn't phrase that well enough. I thought you were considering replacing Chalice with Thoughtseize while also playing Canon to answer storm combo (as if you had agreed with furt's choice). Clearly, if you aren't trying to answer storm combo at all, then not playing Chalice is perfectly reasonable. My question still stands for furt then.
My testing on Thoughtseize is mixed. Thoughtseize is a card you want in your opening hand, but often becomes dead by turn 3 or 4. You either seized their answer or threat on turn 1 or 2 or they get to play their answer (and continually do so as they topdeck it--preventing further discard opportunities), and Thoughtseize becomes a dead card and dead topdecks. I don't like that I MUST open the game with black mana for Thoughtseize to realize its potential. I don't like that it isn't an artifact permanent either.
The main thing Thoughtseize has going for it is that it is always a relevant card against pretty much every deck on turn 1. That sounds like an argument for maindeck play, not for siding though.
peace,
4eak
Jujuhawk & furt - Congrats on how well your lists did. You guys prove affinity can definitely be a contender. I predicted the metagame the same way you guys did. Looking at the top 8, I almost want to chalk up the standings to bad luck. Oh well...
As a sidenote, Nassif is a lucky s.o.b.
I will start at the top and say that I agree 100% with the way Canonist's ability scales down as player skill goes up. One of the two ANT players I played was far far more proficient with combo than they other and he was the one I lost too. I would like to add that I would've won the game without a mull to 7 I believe based on the hand he kept on the play in game 3
Thoughtseize was actually very very good all weekend. As stated it is good in a lot of random matchups, it was also decent against Goblins. More than once it hit his freshly Matroned up creature or a fresh Ringleader draw.
If you do have a more defined metagame to play in I could def see playing the Grips and Chalices over the more broad Thoughtseizes.
As I predicted, I would much need the Cannonists much more than I would need Grips. To me the biggest Grip target is Humility. In my testing, I am not very worried about 12/12s. I saw far more Combo around than Humility so thats when I made that switch.
My friend wants to play this deck in an up coming tourney, and he doesn't have the Ravagers to make the world go round. What can we replace him with that will be somewhat representative or play into the strategy of the deck? Is Atog the best option? Responses with "hurrrrr, play another deck" will not help. Thanks.
Ravager is very important to the deck try borrowing them from someone. Or see how much it costs to get them off ebay.
I'd play 4 Vial and Epochrasite.
And it would suck.
Of course I will try to borrow, but I need a contingency plan should they not be available. eBay is not an option because this is short notice and they wont arrive in time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fons
Interesting, but im not sure we want more Myr Enforcer type creatures. I would think Atog might be better because it opens up the Disciple engine. Also, we would have to borrow/eBay the Epocrasites as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fons
@Ravager or bust: we havent found it nearly as important as as Cranial Plating, Master of Etherium, or Thoughtcast is to the deck, and the shell is solid as a whole, so the deck wouldnt be unplayable without him. Most of the time all he does is combat/removal tricks, and opening up Disciple kill. Sure it will suck but it wont be the end of the world with Atog instead IMO.
@ xsockmonkeyx
Arcbound Ravager is the best card in the deck. Removing him (even if not by choice) would probably require you to change the nature of the deck a bit more than by 4 cards. You lose a lot of reason to play resilient-aggro with no Ravager. Disciple of the Vault loses a ton of value without Ravager, in the same way that Daze just isn't nearly as good without FoW (or Stifle/Wasteland).Quote:
My friend wants to play this deck in an up coming tourney, and he doesn't have the Ravagers to make the world go round. What can we replace him with that will be somewhat representative or play into the strategy of the deck? Is Atog the best option? Responses with "hurrrrr, play another deck" will not help. Thanks.
I think the resilience plan is questionable in your case. Atog is an all-in card. If your adding him, then I'd consider adding more of that. I would test the red-combo plan if I were you. Perhaps something like this:
Lands: 18
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Great Furnace
4 City of Brass
2 Darksteel Citadel
Creatures: 26
4 Atog
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
3 Ornithopter
4 Master of Etherium
3 Myr Enforcer
Spells: 16
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Shrapnel Blast or Fling
It is strictly inferior to Vial Affinity except against combo (which doesn't make a real difference anyways). But, if you don't have the ravagers, then you gotta make due.
peace,
4eak
Thanks 4eak, Ill take a look at the more comboish Fling/Blast orientated approach and see what happens.
My friend ended up making top 8 with the Atog-combo version so everything turned out well. :smile: Thanks for the advice, it really helped.
Couple questions. I would have played this most likely if I had gone to the GP. Unfortunatly I could not but I do play sanctioned legacy on a weekly basis with about 18-20 players. That being said this is my current board setup:Quote:
Originally Posted by furt
4 Pithing Needle
4 Heap Doll
3 Engineered Plague
3 Disenchant
1 Aether Vial
I am not super happy with parts of it. I like the dolls, needles, and plagues but the rest is weird. The biggest problems I face in my meta are like humility/moat in the form of stax and landstill, counterspells, and progenitus. I was thinking of trying duress. How many situations did it matter whether it was duress or thoughtseize? Also what can I bring chalice in against that isnt combo? Combo is non-existent in my meta so...
gamegeek2 from Gleemax, just got permission to post.
Here's the list I'm taking to tomorrow's Dream Wizards Legacy
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Tree of Tales
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Glimmervoid
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Master of Etherium
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
3 Ornithopter
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
3 Springleaf Drum
--- Sideboard ---
4 Engineered Plague
4 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
Last time I went, the meta was infested with Threshold. I am expecting a greater NLU (aka CounterTop) this time, due to its success at the Grand Prix, and put Thopters back in and moved Relics to the side (CounterTop is less reliant on the graveyard).
The Relic/Crypt split is to have 4 GY hate, but the Relics can come in against Threshold and Team America, whereas the Crypts are for the speed, and the Relics just serve as ways to dodge counter-hate such as Chalice and Pithing Needle.
Looks right to me. Heck, we practically have the same sideboard. Good luck!
Well, I went 3-2. Barely missed top 8 (9th) - I was 7th going in to round 5 and wanted to draw, but the other guy (Phil Sagnay) had to play because there was another X-1 (Anwar) with bad breakers that could knock him out of Top 8 contention. I lost (lots of lands...), and still had a shot, but Mike and Chris drew after they found out they could draw into Top 8 (Mike had Painter's Grinstone in play, with mana to activate, too) - then again, Mike's decision makes sense, because Affinity is a bad matchup whereas Mighty Quinn is very good.
Round 1 - Jonathan - AnT with Doomsday
Game 1, he kills me turn 3. Game 2, he goes off but doesn't have enough mana (he messes up AdN) - Game 3, he mulls to 5 and I kill him turn 4.
Round 2 - Simon - RGB Aggro
He's my friend, playing a non-Tier 1 deck, but quite solid, featuring the typical GR Sligh Beatdown suite, but with less burn and Thoughtseizes, Bob, etc. Game 1, Ravager gets there through Goyfs and other stuff. Game 2, he stumbles a bit on mana and I blow him out of the water
Round 3 - Elves (this guy made Top8)
Game 1, he's at enough life to get there with turn 3 Natural Order (for Progenitalia). Game 2, I get him to 2 but Progenitus and a lot of Elves get there.
Round 4 - Jarvis - Goblins
Game 1, I kill him on turn 4 with multiple Disciples and Ravager. Game 2, he Wastes me on the play and beats me up with Lackeys and Warchiefs. Game 3, I have a decent draw and kill him turn 4 with help from Plating.
Round 5 - Phil (made top 8) with Bw Aggro/Control (Zombies)
Game 1, I beat him up with Master and Enforcer. Games 2 and 3 I draw 7 lands, with me mulliganing in Game 2 and losing all my creatures to a Hymn and double Thoughtseize in Game 3.
Engineered Plague, I find, is not the greatest, as it's only good against good matchups. However, I don't know what would go in over it.