Klaus,
Do you notice having trouble finding blue cards to pitch to force? How do you fare vs merfolk with that list? (I ask because stifle on AV is meh) I like that list a lot.
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Klaus,
Do you notice having trouble finding blue cards to pitch to force? How do you fare vs merfolk with that list? (I ask because stifle on AV is meh) I like that list a lot.
Romanus.
17 U cards is the bare minimum incl. FOW. The MD has 18 - obviously it could have a higher U count. Against combo it can be upped to 23 though (+3 MM +2 BEB). The one flex slot is the 2nd Crucible which can easily be replaced with the 4th BS.
The Merfolk MU might not be favorable, but (since you're active over at the LS thread, too) Ultimate Walker (actually that name should always be capitalized to emphasize its Hulkishness), so ULTIMATE WALKER might fare better against Merfolk than the common LS lists.
This is due to REB, more removal, and the fact that Standstill is not a dead card. That being said, I'd most likely board out 1-2 Visions against most aggro.decs.
-
Sidenote..
@ Stifling Visions: More and more Nervfolk lists drop Stifle :wink:
I just played against the deck on MWS, I have to say that Helix is a very strong addition to the arsenal. I'm not so sure if boarding out Visions is that good of an idea though, you will need the card advantage against aggro in order to win.
I'm not sure about removing a land, but I have to say I like Firespout and Helix a lot. I'll test this as soon as I have time to.
Thanks Klaus for this serious option.
P-M
Thanks Klaus. I really dig your build, and I think it plugs holes that the first list had. I tested Yan's first list and was stomped by fast aggro so I went limping back to landstill. Your list has strong sweepers and extra spot removal with helix. I will start testing it tonight :cool:
I do love Klaus' approach: I think this deck has a well-defined set of powerfull lategame bombs that ensure certain lategame domain such as AV, Planeswalkers, EE+Ruins and Crucible of Worlds.
The rest of the deck should focus on not only surviving but also keeping a decent game-state against fast aggro, during the first few turns, which will be critical. IMHO, things like Forbid, Tolaria or Cunning Wish were kind of win-more cards.
You might be correct about that land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
I have the feeling it should be 23 considering 1 Crucible gets moved to the board.
Fixed.
I think the Helix build definitly plugs hole that were prior leaky, such as a heavy dependence on 4cc bombs: Wrath, Planeswalkers, Moat/Humility. Firespout definitly helps out a ton against all the situations where Wrath of God would be necessary, allowing StoP to take care of the larger threats of Goyf and Tombstalker. It also carries an easier mana requirement (3 mana, 1 colored) vs WoG (4 mana, 2 colored). This is a huge difference that should be considered.
I like the tweak that some of you are giving to this deck. I saw Yan played it oftenly and I always argue with him about the lack of BS in his list... Basically, he said that BS doesn't create card advantage and in his orginal design he went for card density over card selection... I still think it's the wrong path to follow, but he's making results with his list.
Llightning helix seems good, but can't replace hiself as F/I does, it's not blue and can't do some nice 2 for 1 tricks... But I admit it will help alot against fast aggro.
In Klaus' list I would add a single tropical island as the 23rd mana source. It gives a possible wrath for the fliers with Firesprout and allows EE at 4.
Also, why is the plainwalker creew always featuring 2 Elspeth (some people argue for 3!)? I know it can be an offending suggestion, but I would try to drop to 1. I know Elspeth is a game breaker, it wins game by herself and it's your main kill condition... I saw her in action and love it. But it's an awfull draw in the early game and she needs a good board position to be effective.
The way I see the game plan of this deck is surviving to the early game (either by killing or countering treaths) than you stabilize and begin to create more CA than you oponent and then you can think about winning...
In that scenario a second Ajani seem better suited to me. it fit perfectly in the mid-game plan, will be an expensive Helix if the board is not favorable and can also wins game by himself... Anyway, you'll draw Elspeth later or go for the factory beatdown... I'm not saying it's the right configuration but I think it worths a test session.
Finally, I want to advocate for Ancestral Vision. I was also skeptical when I saw Yan playing it for the first time, but I most admit that it's one of the most underated draw engine in the format. The only playable thing that can generate as much CA is Fact or Fiction. FoF is a clumsy 4cc spell. You need to tap mana to play it:tongue: Vision is more vulnerable but easier to protect and give you a smoother curve... There's no real choice here imo.
So i recently picked up this deck and have been testing it fairly aggressively. My main two questions (due primarily to lack of testing agaisnt compitent pilots for these decks) is what do we do against Counter-top and the Folk? and less importantly what about agaisnt decks like ANT? I have played storm combo for years and know from personal expiernce that MMAGE dosn't cut it against storm? Is this one of those luck sac into a win or die matches?
If I were to opt into the 23rd land (trop) that swaping dismantling blow for K-Grip is a good swap? or is the kicker important enough to keep it in for the CA?
Is it possible that swapping the one of top and counterspell for something more consistent such as to Fire/Ice would be beneficial or possibly a fourth brainstorm and the 2ns crucible? I cut the second crucible for the second firespout.
Lastly, What is the correct play with Jace? If the coast is clear on the third turn do i run her out with no force in hand? or do i sit and wait till i can make sure she resolves with protection? Also should we immediately do the +2 ability to circumvent a bolt or do we just wana start doing the -1 off the bat?
Thanks for all of your help guys I really enjoy this deck and look foreword to your thoughts.
Mmmmm, Klaus you are brilliant. Tested heavily against Zoo tonight. It's a semi favorable match with landstill, but Ultimate Walker v2.klaus could not be touched. AV blew up lands, Helix melted everything and I would have only traded Spout for wrath one time vs a 4/5 Goyf. Ended all my games (9 of them, more to follow) at 15+ life.
Next on my testing list is vs Goblins and mono red burn. Not major decks in the format, but have given me problems in the past.
Thanks again Klaus.
Burn is easily mitigated with Goldmane. That 'walker is a HOUSE against the monored lists. :)
Of course Grip came to mind when Tropical was mentioned. However, to really be able to maintain 3 SB Grips we'd need to at least run 2 green sources which would unnessecarily weaken the manabase. I'm not positive yet, whether Blow is the right call - it's got the right CMC though and does it's CA thing at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
There are few cards out there that are more consistent and reliable than Counterspell and I daresay there is not a single spell that reads "consistency" more than Top.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
There are pretty straight forward rules of thumb for playing Jace correctly:Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
You go straight 3-2-1-0 against:
- Combo
- Burn
- Sligh (unless the board is clear and your life total is good and he doesn't hold more than 3 cards, I'd say then could go: 3-2-1-3)
---------------
You go 3-2-1-3 (+repeat) against:
- most of other archetypes, given the gamestate allows for the cycle
---------------
You go 3->5... when:
- you're staring down a 1/1 or 2/2 or (or even 3/3 if you have the means to remove them the turn after [EE etc.])
- especially so if you're under pressure.
---------------
Obviously you'll cast him and go 3-2 if you're in trouble and he's your only feasible play.
Example: you're at 9 life, facing a 4/5 Goyf with merely land in play and no removal in hand. Either he'll draw an attack, thus cycling for 4 life or he'll draw you at least 2 cards and eventually find you that out.
There is some more strategic knowledge regarding Jace that is rather subtle and really gamestate-specific but from a certain degree onwards it's mostly playstyle and experience.
Never forget his last ability. Against Control, it's purely good. So I would add to Klaus' analysis:
3->5->7... against:
Any control deck.
Against CB:Spell snare prevent it but Engineered Explosives is the main weapon we have against it, and it's a pretty good one. In the orignal list, we also have Wish-> Dis blow
Against Folk: 8 spots removal is good (Like Canadian thresh). E.E. recursive is a house once again. Mishra's and Decree makes their standstill not as efficient. I've never seen Yan losing against this MU and I'm pretty sure it's favorable.
P-M
I just played against this with Death Baron's Panty Raid, and Helix was a great--and unexpected--combat trick.
Is the matchup generally in favor of this deck, or in favor of the Death Baron deck?
Well, I did win 2-0, but that trick almost won the first game for him, I just had a Graveborn Muse and was able to recover well. Second game, he popped Elspeth's ult, but I was still able to swarm around blockers. He didn't cast any sweepers, but commented about not seeing Firespouts.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG-Fan
I'm currently testing Klaus' version with these changes:
-1 Top
-2 Path to exile
-1 Polluted delta
-1 Crucible of worlds
+1 Tolaria West
+1 Tundra
+1 Tropical Island
+2 Counterspell
->Blue cards are back to 20.
->Now have 23 lands + 1 West
->Permission up to 11
I'm still not sure if it's better than the Original list (the one with 3 Jaces and 4 E.E), but it still needs to be tested out.
P-M
With GenCon starting in just over 7 days I have put alot of thought into my deck list for worlds. Usually I have my deck of choice for any format narrowed down to at least a play style such as aggro, combo, or control. However past experiences with Worlds has lead me to believe that there really is no ideal deck to play due to the large diversity of decks which have always shown up. For this years worlds I am fully capable of playing Merfolk, CounterSlivers, any Storm list, Ultimate walker, and Ichorid.
While I am fairly well versed in each of the above decks it appears that each one has a very large flaw and thus so far am leaning towards ultimate walker. If you guys would be so kind as to point out any thing that seems false or anything off that would be awesome. After my quick annalysis I will then explain why these thoughts lead me to ULTIMATE WALKER.
Merfolk-- Weak against Zoo and the probability of alot of mirror matches due to cost and efficiency are deterrents
CounterSlivers-- The deck basically died with the advent of the M10 rules plain and simple not to mention Slivers 8 lords cannot really compete against the 'Folks 12
Storm-- My main issue with this list is the instability of the mana base due to such a large collection of duals and Mines. While this is likely a very good deck assuming good mulligan skills I really don't wana deal with Chant wars from the mirror.
Ichorid-- My biggest issue with Ichorid is the inherent weaknesses associated with games 2 and 3. Grave hate is far to common place in almost any given deck that I really do not want to run it.
From my perspective ULTIMATE WALKER has a few big bonuses for playing it. The first bonus is the lack of wide knowledge. With such a small following it seems likely I will pull off alot of easy games due to my opponent having no idea what I am playing and how to play against it. Second the deck is extremely well rounded and between main and side has an extensive collection of tools to fight almost any deck in format. Third with my personal tweaks to the manabase and card pool any weaknesses to the consistency of the deck has been further reduced from Klaus' list.
For your viewing pleasure I submit to you my personal take on ULTIMATE WALKER
LANDS 22
2 Island
3 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
Consistency and Card advantage 11
4 Ancestreal Visions
3 Brainstorms
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace Beleren
Removal Package 14
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Firespout
Counters 9
4 Force of Will
4 Spellsnare
1 Counterspell
Win-Cons 4
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Decree of Justice
The major differences between Klaus' list and mine are as follows:
-2 Wastelands
-1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Plains
+1 Mishra's Factory
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
I choose to make these changes to reduce the overall weakness to inconsistency I experienced with the list. With the removal of Wastelands the value of Crucible also dropped off significantly. I opted for the 4th Factory to increase of threat density and our defense capabilities. The top was the next inclusion due the slow controlling nature of our list and from playing control decks for almost 8 years I have seen the advantages of consistency in drawing the preferred card as opposed to a random card particularity with excess mana at the opponents EOT phase. The extra plains was played into the deck primarily to keep the land count at 22 while also allowing for a slightly better game against Moon Men. The Plains could also have been an island but I felt access to the additional plains was more beneficial although the correct call may be the fourth Tundra.
I'm thinking that my sideboard will be:
1 Firespout
1 Lightning Helix
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Jace Belern
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Wastelands
3 Relic of Progenitus
My sideboard is basically set up to allow me switch into either a more controlling deck by bringing in the walkers or the crucible Waste package or to become more attrition prone by bringing in point removal.
The last few things to think about is swapping the Counterspell for a Mana Leak and possibly adjusting the Sideboard because the 2 of Wasteland seems like a poor idea but I couldn't think of a better option... Perhaps two Mutavaults to go more aggro when under a standstill?
As always... Thoughts and comments are appreciated.
NH
I think you are missing the Spell snares in this list, am I wrong?
This leads me to the fact that you would have a pain in the ass facing Combo without any SB dedicated to it. I think the 4x MM are really necessary, as even with those, the Combo MU is pretty hard. I even thought we should add Chant to make the MU easier.
P-M
After some extensive testing today (to double check my earlier conclusions) I still feel that the Wastelands are not needed and that the 4 Factory is very useful. I also still know we want another colored source in the 2nd waste slot although wether it should be a plains is still in the air (so far it seems right). I am however beginning to think that I may have been to harsh on the consistency problem previously. Crucible was fairly impressive today in testing. I will likely put it back in over the 2nd top although honestly 2 crucible seems really tempting due to all the LD I have seen lately.
Thoughts?
P.S. I am not sure it makes sense to devote board slots to combo. Primarily because against good combo players the only way we can win with such a slow deck is to get lucky. The combo player needs to either have horrid luck at hitting their DDays or have horrid flips with AdNos. Secondly because we have zero hope of honestly beating them game one and our chances do not go up drastically post board without devoting our side to beating combo. Not to mention I forsee signifcantly more aggro and control decks than anything combo based besides dredge (which is already any easy match).
P.P.S. What if anything should I cut from my list for a 4th Explosives assuming I swap a Top for Crucible again.
P.P.P.S I just went 2-0 against storm combo... I think it had ALOT ALOT ALOT to do with my familiarity of Storm and the varying methods of playing storm while also playing against one of the more TES variants (AKA all in esq lists). Also as a general note when playing against storm with this ALWAYS bring in ur Pyro/Red Blasts for combos tutors and cantrips... Those are key to beating storm.
@ nodahero:
Making room for the 4th EE seems feasible. I think the fact that you don't run any Disenchant effects in the board actually makes it a necessity.
4 REB seem overkill to me. I'm aware of the pros but they will hardly ever be helplful in the face of a resolved CB and the 'U control MU' already is rather favorable due to our PWs.
Those 4 SB slots: 2 Crucible 2 Waste would really only prove their worth in a meta full of LS, which most likely won't be the case.
I still like my singleton Crucible in the main though. Oftentimes it completed the A. Ruins-EE lock by making it close to unbreakable. Plus, recurring factories are nice in game 1 too, making our mana base Wasteland prove somewhat relaxes me and yes, I have actually won a couple of games by wastelocking my opponent, it also makes our Decree a real threat.
I went ahead and adjusted my sideboard to be slightly more mainstream. What are everyone's thoughts.
SB: 1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
SB: 1 [RAV] Lightning Helix
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [M10] Jace Beleren
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
I created this board with the impression that aggro is already a near bye due to our infinite creature kill in the main.
GENERAL SIDEBOARD STRATEGY
Against aggro I would board in the Helix and Spout and POSSIBLY the 2nd Vengeant depending on the aggro deck such as sligh.
Against control I would bring in the Vengeant, Jace, Crucible, and possibly the Dismantling blow against certain decks.
Against combo I would board in the Blasts and Mage (Countering their cantrips is sick).
Relic comes in for the obvious matchup which is already fairly good but it never hurts to pad it a little.
@ nodahero :
I think you really need the lonely Tropical in it. It doesn't significaly weaken your mana base and it improves Firesprout and EE...
You must bring the blast in too... The Mages are goods against some control variant (I would bring them in 100% of the time against UWb Landstill).Quote:
Against control I would bring in the Vengeant, Jace, Crucible, and possibly the Dismantling blow against certain decks.
Crucible Waste is a strong plan versus Landstill. Moreover crucible alone stabilize your manabase. I think you should keep one in the main.
Good luck at Gencon
I played this list to a 14th place finish at the GP Boston legacy side event on Sunday.
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Brainstorm
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinket Mage
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Compulsive Research
2 Tolaria West
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plateau
1 Island
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Leonin Den
Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
1 REB
2 Hydroblast
1 BEB
2 Firespout
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pulse of the Fields
1 Ethersworn Canonist
My list has the same game plan as other lists, but gets there by different means. Here's some explanation for the unique card choices.
For card advantage I have replaced Jace with Compulsive Research. Compulsive Research doesn't see a lot of constructed play, because it's a sorcery, but in this deck that isn't a significant drawback. It also has great synergy with Crucible. At three mana I prefer to get my cards right away rather than wait for them to arrive over several turns.
Trinket Mage replaces Cunning Wish as the utility card. Being able to block for Planeswalkers and searching for a fourth land are two of Trinket Mages advantages. The targets are all cards that this kind of deck would want anyway, so the random bad draws that often plague decks with tool boxes are not a issue here. The one Chalice of the Void can be crippling against many decks, and it fits very well with the anti-Spell Snare theme.
I definitely can see the overall strategy being the same interms of how to win but our methods to reach the end are vastly different. For example... Mage can never counteract a flurry of burn spells aimed you short of tutoring up a chalice. Weak example but I am half asleep... Not to mention your deck takes a much more tap out approach to control witch dosnt seem safe in the current metagame.
The reason I feel so safe tapping out is because there aren't any counters that cost more than one mana that I want to play in this deck. If there isn't an incentive to leave mana up, then why not take advantage of powerful sorcery-speed spells?
You want to leave mana up for various reasons.
Example 1) cycling your Decree
Example 2) Activating your Explosives, Factorys, and Top
Example 3) Casting your StPs and Brainstorms at ideal times
Also while compulsive is a quicker boon than Jace-Compulsive cannot draw attacks away from your life and Jace can also provide more long term card advantage (something this deck accels at outside of MWS).
Another option to make your list slightly more flexible would be to swap out the Compulsives for Thirst for Knowledge and up the artifact count by 2 or so cards. One other addition could be Great Furnace. While the card advantage from TfK is not as likely to be as high as Compulsive I think there is something to be said for its ability to be cast "whenever".
None of those things seem like especially good reasons to play instants. There aren't many more sorcery speed cards in this list than in the normal ones, because Jace is sorcery speed.
I realize this but jace also provides a much larger range of flexibility. For example... While testing this morning on MWS I was playing against 4 color balance and the game literally came done to the flexibility of jace. I actually won by decking my opponent with Jace... and I dont mean her "ultimate" either... Sad but true... By the time I drew her I was to low on cards to keep bumping her up for fear my opponent would draw into a goyf to finish me before I found a StP or Path... I was at 3 life.
I can agree that Jace has advantages, particularly against other blue decks like the one in your example. But I think that Compulsive Research is better for consistently hitting the fourth land drop and finding removal ASAP. This deck has a good matchup against other blue decks already, so I consider Compulsive Research to be more useful in terms of shoring up the deck's vulnerabilities.
I actually hadn't noticed this before now... the jace vs compulsive argument with Jace being a bit of a win more against blue based lists... Although for the record... I do not think our deck is nearly as immune to Counterbalance as we were lead to believe. I still think the match is in out favor but no more than 60 40 at BEST...
The counter-top matchup is in someways alot worse than other decks due to all of our best removal in those matchups dieing to a cmc of 1 which in this matchup once it is underway isn't hard for them to hit. Personally I think the easiest way to beat them is ironically to simply board in REBs and Pyros and merely make them pay for trying to get set up first by having more solutions then they have.
Another note from testing today... Due to sheer boredem at our weekly legacy league I risked my flawless record taking on two player simultaneously (their decks were both tier 2 or 3 but in two on one... with them sharing 40 life; it seemed like a good test of my capabilities with this beast). Throughout our match I kept noting how Factorys seemed a little redundant except when I my Elspeths and Vengeants failed to appear and kept thinking about how Waste would have served me better particually against zoo since there manabase is so critter light as is. Does it seem logical to swap the 4 factorys in my lists for 4 wastes and find 1 more card to cut for a 4th vengeant?
As a random side note (due to a lack of Decrees) I tested out rings of brighthearth and found them to be extremely powerful although they may have been slightly win more as oppsoed to the decrees. The Rings would be nuts in the control mirror with the wastes to perpetuate the war of attrion with us knocking out two of their lands with 1 of ours and 2 mana. What is everyone elses oppions?
I guess overall it seems like our aggro matchup is extremely good and our control can actually use a slight tweak.
I think the major point of argument now is the value of Factorys in our deck. Typically against aggro the best our factorys will ever due is to trade with another critter or die to a burn spell before blocks. Against control they provide an uncounterable beater but cannot get past a goyf or nimble when trying to kill the opposition.
On the flipside using Waste against the aggro player reduces our (large) amount of ways in which to kill creatires to a slightly lower count (roughly 15 down to 11 in my list) to weaken there manabase by kicking out a spash color such as white and thus slowing the game down more to our pace. Against control we lose the ability to get in for free hits but gain the ability of crippling one color from the opposing deck.
Clearly in the control match Waste is alot better due to the its ability to cripple the already typically fragile manabase of control decks. In the aggressive matchs (something I have significantly less testing in) the line becomes very blurred because I remember games where I drew 2 factorys and obliterated my opponent and games in which I drew a factory and it died... then I would draw a factory and it would die... and eventually lost because I "missed" so many land drops.
Little Question: Whats with Savor the Moment in this Deck? It gives you an additional Turn for you Walkers and it "removes" a counter from the Visions as well as letting you play an additional Land (specially if you have crucible out).
I like the Trinket Mage in there but as we play for time, Intuition (even a single one) might be worth trying, so you search for example for Crucible+Ruins+Top or Explosives.
Savor the Moment is too unreliable to be played and is only really worth it in certain situations. The 50% chance of spending three mana on literally nothing is not a smart gamble, especially with so mana other good options in the 3 mana spot.
I agree with Nodahero that Wasteland is really good and Factory is often not so good. I like at least 1 Factory to tutor for with Tolaria West, so it shouldn't be cut completely. One upside of Wasteland that wasn't mentioned in Nodahero's post is that wasting someone when you have Ancestral counting down can be really devastating.
well, you do draw an extra card from it and it should be played in situations whre you can gain from it the most. But it doesn't add anything real to the deck whereas the other card in that same manacost is a real lightning rod with the potential of true cardadvantage.
@Legacyplayer: Are you still running your list card for card or have you adjusted it since your posted it? I am really trying to make the manabase much more versatile and stable in conjunction with the spells and was curius what your list looks like.
I went ahead and tested the swap for Compulsive over Jace and noticed that while it does weaken our control matchup it does strengthen our aggressive matches more. The question is I suppose how much we should strengthen one match and weaken the other...
Also... It may be my lack of landstill experience but... Decree dosn't really seem that impressive no matter how you use it. Is their an ideal scenario for it? Or is it there as a carry over from the role it fulfilled in Landstill? Personally it seems the latter. All to often that card feels like it is to little to late or a win more card. Is it possible that Eternal Dragon may be slightly better in that slot? He provides early card advantage and ensures never missing a land drop and also comes in as a late game finisher. Thoughts?
P.S. While I realize posting your deck to often is a massive pain I think the changes warrant an update.
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [M10] Plains (1)
2 [M10] Island (1)
3 [R] Tundra
3 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [JGC] Mishra's Factory
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
// Creatures
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [DD2] Counterspell
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [RAV] Lightning Helix
4 [DD2] Ancestral Vision
3 [CST] Brainstorm
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [SHM] Firespout
2 [RAV] Compulsive Research
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
SB: 1 [RAV] Lightning Helix
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [M10] Jace Beleren
SB: 1 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
I actually have no experience to this deck but i goldfished with a nearly compareable decklist, i disslike 2 Slots of the Lists i have seen, first is that i would play at least 2 jace and 2 elspeth if possible even 2 ajani. Instead of the compulsiv research i'd favor either compulsion or traderoutes, they get awesome with crucible and against LD effects, compulsion would be some more flexible as u dont need to discard lands.
Second Slots where the path to exile, while playing 3-4 lightning helix and 4 swords i think this slot would be better used in bounce spells or something like oblivion ring etc which could target other permanents than creatures too. :rolleyes:
@TangleWire: While I do not disagree with the power of Crucible+Trade Routes+Opposing LD to be great... I do disagree that it belongs in this deck and more specifically mine. My list only runs 1 Crucible and no way to tutor for it first. Second I would need to find room to fit in Trade Routes with the only visible option being the second Path. Finally I am not too terrified of opposing LD to begin with. I run more lands than most decks and thus if they are wasting my lands they are actually setting themselves back farther than me typically. Not to mention my deck needs 3 land to run and only 4 to win (one benefit of only having 3 four mana Planeswalkers).
Also as previously mentioned I do agree with you on the overabundance of targeted removal and have been considering swapping the second Path for the fourth EE due to its overall flexibility while also adding in a Tropical Island to set the EEs at 4 although I doubt that is needed so I am not sure I would ever set it there. Then again if we want the second Ajani (which I have wanted) he may be the swap for the Path.
Can anyone please tell me what four drops their are that I would want to blow up with EEs? The only cards I can even think of that get played are Moat and Sower... two cards I am not very afraid of.
I was just thinking about a permanent solution for the 2 slots of Compulsiv research, but as i said i never played this deck by myself so i dont know which spells are the best, i think even Intuition, Gifts or Fact or Fiction could be nice?
The current 4 mana drops on legacy that have been played where:
Smokestack,Moat,Humility,Wrath/Damnation,Sower/Control Magic but this are all nor really dangerous due this deck, a Smokestack could but is really not played anymore.
Well if all goes well I should be rocking this to a top 8 finish in like 2 and a half days. Although I often do random audibles and end up regretting it. I still want a better finisher than EDragon and Decree so if anyone has any ideas I am all ears.