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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tangle.Wire
As you see on the Testings above....its useless for us to analyse matchups for Stompy as the only plan we can affort is to stomp them before they win/lock us. So i don't care which Matchup i get as my Strategy won't change, maybe there could be some brainstorming about what sideboard options we can choose, but there are not that many cards we should board, i think around 4-6 Artefakt/Enchantment solutions, 4 Graveyard hate, Imo relics. And maybe some irrelevant slots like pithing needles.
I think it's quite not truth. We don't have only 1 game plan. Although one looks a lot like the other, Combo is different from aggro, and our stance for each matchup may, and should, vary.
For example, against Aggro-Loam or Zoo, we are willing to "combo" as soon as possible, with any creature we can find to be in table. But for CB+Top, we can win by focusing on having more creatures in table and hold our combo-try in hand for the appropriate timing.
And nevertheless, match-up analysis is more likely to be "how favorable" the match-up is, and possible good and bad choices against each.
I also aggre that we should discuss Sideboarding based on the match-ups. And also, try to figure the worse match-ups so that we can make a generic Sideboard.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Yeah, I also think, that the Sideboard, is a good discussion, we need to start...
...but what do you think is needed in the Sideboard???
IMO
4 Vexing Shusher are an absolute must
3-4 Seeds of Innocence (everybody plays it)
are needed...
about the rest, I don't know... maybe 2-4 Graveyardhates (Crypt vs Relic discussion)
maybe more Artifact/Enchantment hate [(are 2 Reverent Silence needed) Prison, Propaganda, Enchantress, Moat, Worship...], do we need additional/more Artifact&Enchantment removal (like Naturalize)
do we have the space for anticombocards, or should we ignore that MU?
YawG
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yawgmoth'sWill
Yeah, I also think, that the Sideboard, is a good discussion, we need to start...
...but what do you think is needed in the Sideboard???
IMO
4 Vexing Shusher are an absolute must
3-4 Seeds of Innocence (everybody plays it)
are needed...
about the rest, I don't know... maybe 2-4 Graveyardhates (Crypt vs Relic discussion)
maybe more Artifact/Enchantment hate [(are 2 Reverent Silence needed) Prison, Propaganda, Enchantress, Moat, Worship...], do we need additional/more Artifact&Enchantment removal (like Naturalize)
do we have the space for anticombocards, or should we ignore that MU?
YawG
I think Sideboard Slots for Graveyard hate shouldn't be more than 3 as we don't need to board much against dredge as the matchup is fine with/without crypts. I think Relics are to slow here even with 1 mana. For Naturalize/Grip etc i found out boarding it for everything beside Countertop lock a Set of Oxidize and Wax//Wane is pretty good. Against landstill/countertop i am currently giving Root Maze a try as addition to Winter orb.
I think Reverent Silence is pretty good as 6 life is not that worse even if you play the Kavu list.
Normally i wouldn't say something like that but: Won't Jitte be a good add on for most matchups? it works excellent with trample damage and can win us the combats against Goofies etc.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tangle.Wire
I think Sideboard Slots for Graveyard hate shouldn't be more than 3 as we don't need to board much against dredge as the matchup is fine with/without crypts. I think Relics are to slow here even with 1 mana. For Naturalize/Grip etc i found out boarding it for everything beside Countertop lock a Set of Oxidize and Wax//Wane is pretty good.
Aggreed. 3 is fine for us, i usualy run 3 tormods.
We usually run seeds over oxidize, and wax//wane is a good 2color option.
Seeds is just as better as it is for Kavu.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tangle.Wire
Against landstill/countertop i am currently giving Root Maze a try as addition to Winter orb.
You probably should try some Vexing Shusher against CounterTop, and even agains Landstill, once they will need to kill him as soon as possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tangle.Wire
I think Reverent Silence is pretty good as 6 life is not that worse even if you play the Kavu list.
Only game I prefer Reverent over any other hate is enchantress...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tangle.Wire
Normally i wouldn't say something like that but: Won't Jitte be a good add on for most matchups? it works excellent with trample damage and can win us the combats against Goofies etc.
Jitte goes more aggro against our aggro matchups, in which we are willing to keep our creatures on board, and "combo" them up. That's probably why it's not used: It doen't save your critters and ins't fast enough for the combo.
I want to do some further tests with Pithing Neddle... It seems to be such an awesome sideboard option... need some results to prove it though...
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Pithing Needle is a no-brain card somehow...
every time I played in in my Stompy Sideboard, I thought something like: "This card is not bad, but it's also not the optimum"
IMO it's awesome on paper, but not really needed...
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yawgmoth'sWill
Pithing Needle is a no-brain card somehow...
every time I played in in my Stompy Sideboard, I thought something like: "This card is not bad, but it's also not the optimum"
IMO it's awesome on paper, but not really needed...
Could you tell us what you used it against?
I fell like i could use it against aggro-loam, but there again, aggro loam should be a good match.
Against combos, LED based, and belcher/Painter... and Ichorid...
And against CB-Top, but Shusher + Krosan should handle it better too...
But there are a lot of decks that get hurt by well played needle... dunno if it's our focus thou.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
against NQG and Stuff, you don't need it because Shusher does the Job better...
against Decks packing mass Deeds, EEs, etc. you just dont need to overextend with your creatures...
against Goblins I named Vial, but we don't need to, because we are faster...
(same goes for Merfolk)
CotV is better against Combo than Needle is...
The only MU where Needle was great was against Survival...
I really see no MU except Survival where you really want Needle...
...it isn't a bad card, its an good allaround card, if you don't know, what you could play... but IMO not really needed
YawG
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
In my stompy version(i´ve playing this deck more than two years or so and i´ve tried lot of versions). While Cesar always liked monocolored i´ve always liked with a little splash of red and/or white. We had argued sometimes about that but always he has preferred the MONO_G version and i always preffered multicolored.
Currently i´m playing hidden herd. Everybody nowdays plays nonbasic lands (fetches are everywhere and duals too). Is a 3/3 for G so is basicly a nacatl but sometimes better. Because i play multicolored I´m playing in this deck nacatls too so i have 8 3/3 creatures for one mana. Beside of that i´m playing silhanas, kavus, qasalis and in the last version i was trying viashino slaughtermaster (they are good enough but not as impresive as they may look like on paper).
I´m trying to find a good replacement for them and i´m thinking on the new goblin (goblin guide because his haste a 2 power hability ) could be enough to have chances of winning on second turn.
My manabase has 8 (G-R, G-W) fetches and 8 duals(same) and 4 forest but i´m trying to improve it because i think adding more fetches (W-R and basics) could be better and reducing the land count could be good too.
Because i´m playing white i use Swords to phlowshares MD. They are great because pumps predators at the same time we remove the worst creature the oppoenent has. Believe me, they saved me lot of times and i think they are needed in the multicolored version.
I´m looking for another dude to play with. In the last two years I´ve tried:
Talara´s batallion (his drawback is heavy)
Jotun Grunt (Big body, helps against any decks, makes little goyfs and so) but in firsts turns where we need to play creatures they are not good at all.
VExing shusher : they are awesome, but more SDB material.
Watchwolf:they are good, if i don´t find anything more i´m playing them.
Slippery boggle: they are good but has a small body. They are only attacking when you can combo out and because nowdays there are lot of big creatures to deal with i´m not very sold about them because they can´t evade.
Skyshroud elite: a 2/3 is not imppresive at all. The left my list lot of time ago
Kird Ape: Same as elites but worse because R is their cost
Tarmogoyf:A middle-late game creature. I´ve played them and they are good but i´m trying to play a deck without them.
Nettle sentinel: Sometimes you run out of green cards in your hand. Sometimes this dude is unuseful and i don´t like this times so i´m not playing it anymore in this deck.
Skarrgan : Good and bad, Has an awesome evasing hability but it needs anybody to connect before they comes into play because a 1/1 is not as impresive and a 2/2 is not too. They are good with rancor, but nowdays there are lot of removal everywhere so i´m not playing them now.
Jungle Lion: very circunstancial creature. I´m never like them
Tattermunge: same a Lion
Scrib sprites: small body, evasive but very small.
Troll Ascetic:Powerhouse but lot of expensive. 3CC is much more than we want to pay for a critter.
River Boa: Not bad nor good. Evasive and regenerable but it´s still sords/path objetive and needs to keep open mana so not good for this deck.
vinde dryad, Rogue elephant,......They are not playable nowdays. Perhaps 10 years ago they were the beaters but never more.
Any ideas or suggestions?
For pumping now i´m using:
Might of old krosa
invigorate
Berserk
Vines of the vastwood(they were rancors before).
Note that because my creatures are bigger (3/3 as usual) i don´t need rancors usually to combo out, and since creatures are removed when you try to rancor them (2x1) i´ve tried to avoid that.
Ideas suggestions?
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Could you please list it? And results? Matchups? =)
EDIT: By what i've seen in your crossed-away list, you could use some cutting berserk and play Zoo =P
Right, kidding here, k?
No, seriously, I need the list to reach any conclusion... you just crossed like half of our basic list away...
As for now, I would just say rancor isn't good at all as part of the combo. But it's good enough for it and Great for the Aggro role. That's why it's there.
EDIT 2: My bad, seems like you almost already posted the list.
From what I can see:
20 or something Lands
4 Nacatl
4 Hidden Herd
4 Kavu
4 Silhana's
4? Quasali
4 Looking for something
4 Might of old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
4 Vines of vastwood
4 Swords to plowshares
Lightning bolts?
Well, what i can see is that you run Berserk as an alternate plan to a zoo...
Dunno about 4VoVW, maybe 2/2 split with rancor? with seal?
Hidden Herd is, indeed, a great card... there is no much walkaroud (and i indeed forgot posting it in the first page.). Just wish you are not facing much gobblins/merfolks, and you will be fine.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
...I think Berserk Stompy should stay Mono-G
...if we splash good cards from R and W, we build more and more in this direction, and then, we end in playing zoo...
YawG
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yawgmoth'sWill
...I think Berserk Stompy should stay Mono-G
...if we splash good cards from R and W, we build more and more in this direction, and then, we end in playing zoo...
YawG
Agreed. Not that I want to be a dick to people and say "get out of the thread" or anything, I'm up for discussion on it. But if there's going to be discussion, lets do it right. Someone needs to point out a good reason why G/r/w Stompy isn't just a bad version of Zoo. I think the default assumption that Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Price are better than Invigorate, Might, and Berserk is pretty solid -- who's on the other side of that argument?
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
My list is the following:
// Lands
4 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [U] Taiga
4 [U] Savannah
// Creatures
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
// Spells
4 [U] Berserk
4 [MM] Invigorate
4 [TSP] Might of Old Krosa
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
4 [US] Hidden Herd
4 [ZEN] Vines of Vastwood
This is my current list. I think the mix of stompy is better than burn because this way let me win matches that otherwise i never couldn´t won .
What do you think about my list?
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yawgmoth'sWill
...I think Berserk Stompy should stay Mono-G
...if we splash good cards from R and W, we build more and more in this direction, and then, we end in playing zoo...
YawG
To be honest, that would be my oppinion too, but we should respect the 3-c version with Nacatl, not only because it has higher power creatures, and optitions like swords, but also because they are playing the same core as we are.
If we intend this deck to reach somewere, even if they both look too different, we know that the idea is the same, and thus, we should work together.
I like the monogreen version for it's manabase stability, but the Gwr version may be better against few other matchups... We could then:
a) Analyse it; or
b) Play them.
Both are great for us =)
Anyways, I'm not the one who will say Grw is better than otherwise running Zoo.
Conidering that Zoo's badmatch should be combo (due to it's aggro nature), I would most likely say going berserk is a mistake for that shell...
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
shell....
hmm, what do you think is part of the Shell/Core of the Deck...
IMO its:
4 Nettle
4 Skarrgan
4 Bogle
4 Ledgewalker
4 Kavu
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Might
a minimum of 10 Forests
at least 6 other mana sources, fetches, etc.
SB:
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Seeds of Innocence
...this leaves us with 8 other cards to play around with, to complete this deck...
I know that are many cards, but that is my opinion of corecards for this deck...
What do you think belongs to the shell of Berserk Stompy?
YawG
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yawgmoth'sWill
shell....
hmm, what do you think is part of the Shell/Core of the Deck...
IMO its:
4 Nettle
4 Skarrgan
4 Bogle
4 Ledgewalker
4 Kavu
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Might
a minimum of 10 Forests
at least 6 other mana sources, fetches, etc.
SB:
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Seeds of Innocence
...this leaves us with 8 other cards to play around with, to complete this deck...
I know that are many cards, but that is my opinion of corecards for this deck...
What do you think belongs to the shell of Berserk Stompy?
YawG
This. =)
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yawgmoth'sWill
shell....
hmm, what do you think is part of the Shell/Core of the Deck...
IMO its:
4 Nettle
4 Skarrgan
4 Bogle
4 Ledgewalker
4 Kavu
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Might
a minimum of 10 Forests
at least 6 other mana sources, fetches, etc.
SB:
4 Vexing Shusher
3 Seeds of Innocence
...this leaves us with 8 other cards to play around with, to complete this deck...
I know that are many cards, but that is my opinion of corecards for this deck...
What do you think belongs to the shell of Berserk Stompy?
YawG
Same shell for me, filling in the manabase with 6 more Forests because losing to Stifle/Duress is awkward. My extra eight maindeck slots are 4 Skyshroud Elite, 2 Vines of Vastwood, and 2 Briar Shield. I didn't initially think that Briar Shield would be any good, but Boggles and Ledgewalkers just don't provide a clock unless you have Rancor, so having Briar is a nice backup plan for them. Whoever said that a page or two back, nice call.
I'm still not sold on Vines of Vastwood, it's so taxing on the mana and not always up when it really counts. I need to do a lot more testing on the thing.
The two cards I'm currently tempted most by are Scryb Ranger and Cold-Eyed Selkie. The former is just such great manafixing for casting post-board Seeds and pro-Merfolk is awesome. I can't help being interested in the Selkie: she's ForceOfWill-Walk, ignores CB, and if a deck was ever going to make her work, this would be it. I mean really, it doesn't get much cooler than hitting her with Krosa to draw five.
EDIT -- I might try something like 1-2 Selkie and 1-2 Vine Dryad so that I have some more landwalkers and I can throw the Selkies to the Dryad if I can't find three land.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
i thought on selkie too. Usually sshe was countered always or killed before she hits because with this deck you can draw an absurd amount of cards. Now with vines of the vastwood could be an option but i think they are lot mana intensive so i´m not very sold about it.
Anyways i think they are too slow forr this deck.
On the other hand, i understand you when you say you prefer Mono-G and i´m not trying to make you change your mind about that, but please respect the Grw deck. I´m only trying to help you to develop the most powerful stompy ever was created since my deck is like the big brother of yours (big because i´m using another colors, but call him like you wish).
Another idea i saw the last weekend on a shop was using uktabi drake (2/1 haste flying for G with echo 1GG). I think you can use this guy to make "Surprise Surprise" after the other player uses his mana to remove your dudes thinking you need two turns to attack or so. With this dude you can win in only one turn and with a nice evasive hability. The problem is that usually he is going to die on the next turn (echo 3??? OMG, ) but think of you are playing tattermunge who usually dies as well against almost every deck with creatures on it. I think it could be tested.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Otter
... and 2 Briar Shield. I didn't initially think that Briar Shield would be any good, but Boggles and Ledgewalkers just don't provide a clock unless you have Rancor, so having Briar is a nice backup plan for them. Whoever said that a page or two back, nice call...
Bria shield is nice, and play a role similar to seal of strength. I used to run 4 seal + 4 briar before krosa came up, so that I could play my pumps on turn a, and combo on turn b.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Otter
EDIT -- I might try something like 1-2 Selkie and 1-2 Vine Dryad so that I have some more landwalkers and I can throw the Selkies to the Dryad if I can't find three land.
I would appreciate a lot your test results on selkies, vastwood and ranger.
I fell like ranger is too slow and no removal-proof, so i don't fell like using it: I prefer running 18 lands and consider I'll most likely have 3 forest on table... that's also why I don't run fetchs and wastelands...
I don't think the 1-2 vine dryad plan is good at all... play 1-2 extra forest if you fell like you need, 'cos vine dryad is to be a first commer, so you either should play 3-4 of it and wish you have it in opening hand, or cut it from the list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zabuza
i thought on selkie too. Usually sshe was countered always or killed before she hits because with this deck you can draw an absurd amount of cards. Now with vines of the vastwood could be an option but i think they are lot mana intensive so i´m not very sold about it.
Maybe 4-of vastwood, 4-of scryb and 3~4 selkie, in a "manafix-draw-protect" combo, together with 18 lands, could handle it...
that would give us no much room though:
4 skarrgan, 4 boogle, 4 silhana, 4 kavu (16)
4 berserk, 3 seal (manafix), 4 invigorate, 4 VoVW (19)
3 selkie
4 scryb ranger
18 Lands
Seems ok, but a lot less "aggro" then the deck usually can be...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zabuza
On the other hand, i understand you when you say you prefer Mono-G and i´m not trying to make you change your mind about that, but please respect the Grw deck.
Yep, we shall respect it.(at least, I do.)
We are looking forward your testing resulsts too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zabuza
Another idea i saw the last weekend on a shop was using uktabi drake
I've tested it once, and I hate it. It's a mid-late game slot if you wish to keep him alive, or if you wish to combo him up. And it's a bad version of shock if you play it first turn.
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Double-post avoidance Edit:
Sweet, CHaPuZaS is going to join us at The Source =)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHaPuZaS
I'm César and I need your help a lot... I've been trying to post in the BStompy post since I've heard of it by you, but somehow I have not "enough privileges" or so... How could I do it? Can I contact a webmaster for solving that?Thank you very much!
And for now, all of you convinced me to run BS in a 157 people tournament last sunday
Here is the report:
http://launiversidaddelasartesludica...de-madrid.html
And here's the list:
http://launiversidaddelasartesludica...ubre-2009.html
Just for if you wanna tell as long as I can´t...
I contacted Nihil... Just can't remember the procedure to get the privileges... anyways, he always get some nice results =)
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gui_Brasil
Sweet, CHaPuZaS is going to join us at The Source =)
I contacted Nihil... Just can't remember the procedure to get the privileges... anyways, he always get some nice results =)
That's great to hear! I would like to know why he likes to play Tattermunge Maniac. I tested it and did not like it at all. Tattermunge forces you to throw away pump spells, i.e., combo pieces, while engaging in attrition wars. If you don't cast Might or Invigorate you usually get 1 for 0ed. The best you do is 1-1.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
umbowta
That's great to hear! I would like to know why he likes to play Tattermunge Maniac. I tested it and did not like it at all. Tattermunge forces you to throw away pump spells, i.e., combo pieces, while engaging in attrition wars. If you don't cast Might or Invigorate you usually get 1 for 0ed. The best you do is 1-1.
He aswers that in his blog. He didn't test nettle enough, that's why he decided for maniac. He didn't explain maniac over lion though.
About our sideboard issues, besides the shusher which seems to be the 61st~64th card of the deck against control, been considering:
What about dropping Seeds for Krosan/Naturalize? Seeds best is against Stax 'n' Affy, which can be hurted by Krosan/Naturalize that are far more versatile. Besides, they pawn Moat and Humility too.
And what about dropping tormods, which is best against loam, and some threshs, and use Needle instead, which is good against: Loam, CB+Top, Isochron, Belcher, Painter and any activation-based. Also, it's 1cc, which is affordable.
And what about using Shards of Amethyst against Combos?
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Hi, thread!
The primer is very nice and I'm glad people still playing this deck.
I want to offer you the direction I never saw: the use of creatures with Exalted, namely Noble Hierarch and Qasali Pridemage. This will allow us to run less lands and now we have a maindeck answer to problematic cards (like CB or Moat). Also, Swords to Plowshares is still the best removal in format and white offers Orim's Chant to help fighting Storm combo.
The downsides are obv:
1) Non-basic hate (wich is survivable due to Hierarch).
2) The deck becomes a little slower than mono-:g:
Now here is the sketch decklist of :g::wg:Exalted Berserk:
Lands (13)
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
1-COSTED DUDES (17)
4 Skarragan Pit-Skulk
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Slippery Bogle
2 Skyshroud Elite
4 Noble Hierarch
2-COSTED DUDES (11)
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
3 Qasali Pridemage
PUMP 'N' STUFF (19)
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Berserk
3 Swords to Plowshares
SIDEBOARD
3 Winter Orb
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
3 Tormod's Crypt/Jotun Grunt/another GY hate.
I haven't tested the idea yet, but I know for sure Noble Hierarch is very underplayed card in Legacy and unlike Birds of Paradise it strangely fits in agressive decks due to that little word Exalted.
What do you think of it?
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Welcome to the thread ;),
About your list i can say that is close similar to mine (because i play white too with swords, qasalis, etc). I tested hierarch but they weren´t as good as it promised on paper so i had to cut them. Lot of time you only have a little dude on play and this mana is not as useful as other nice habilities or a big body.
Swords are very good here. This is the deck which can benefit more from swords because removal and because kavu pumps itself a lot.
Sideboarding i don´t like winter orb. I prefer choke who usually close the game when comes into play.
That´s my opinion.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gui_Brasil
What about dropping Seeds for Krosan/Naturalize? Seeds best is against Stax 'n' Affy, which can be hurted by Krosan/Naturalize that are far more versatile. Besides, they pawn Moat and Humility too.
Definitely nothing wrong with this approach, having good answers to Moat could definitely be important, depending on your metagame. I would favor Grip over Naturalize, while it's less castable, it can actually get you out of Chalice at 1+2 and doesn't die to CB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gui_Brasil
And what about dropping tormods, which is best against loam, and some threshs, and use Needle instead, which is good against: Loam, CB+Top, Isochron, Belcher, Painter and any activation-based. Also, it's 1cc, which is affordable.
Needle doesn't stop Loam, Dredge is a replacement effect, not an activated ability. The best we can do with it is name Factory or Port to shut those off, but really it just sucks against Loam. The rest of that list besides Belcher dies to Naturalize/Grip/Seeds/Reverent, so I'm not very sold on Needle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gui_Brasil
And what about using Shards of Amethyst against Combos?
Thorn doesn't work. Dropping it turn two slows down our kill by enough that they'll have the chance to just pay one more to bounce it and then kill us. Dropping it later than turn two gives them a good opportunity to just go off before then. It's not remotely assured to give a good advantage in the matchup, save the space for something that will actually destroy a problematic matchup. The only way this deck is going to have a good combo matchup is if you're in Gw and have Teeg + Canonist.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Yeah, sorry, Pithing doesn't work against loam. =/
Since my meta is got manny loams, i'm back to tormods, and probably gonna use krosan grip
Among the splashs available, the one I like more is Gw with a little splash just for the qasali and the plowshares.
I don't like noble that much, but it can see some play.
About throns, we can always kill the aggro-way, we still run 1/3 of our deck in creatures, and we can pay some extra :1: for the pumps. I'm not sure if they can't kill us before we can cast our shards, but after we do, quite sure combo will have problems. They'll have to bounce it before combo-ing. Anyways, I can't figure out a better card against combo, at least it won't be an auto-loss...
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Thorn of Amethyst...
I played this card one year ago in my Board, without Berserks...
...the only thing I can say is, that I would only play it, if I play 4 ESG, to have a chance to play it first turn...
with Berserks, I think they're much more worse, cuz we aren't able to combokill fast enough...
I think we must play CotV or Mindbreak Trap to handle Combo...
I've also asked CHaPuZaS in the past, what he is thinking about Thorn in the board,and what he Answers was that. "I won't play Thorn in this deck (It's not THAT problem for a combodeck and you will lose a whole turn)"
YawG
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yawgmoth'sWill
Thorn of Amethyst...
I played this card one year ago in my Board, without Berserks...
...the only thing I can say is, that I would only play it, if I play 4 ESG, to have a chance to play it first turn...
with Berserks, I think they're much more worse, cuz we aren't able to combokill fast enough...
I think we must play CotV or Mindbreak Trap to handle Combo...
I've also asked CHaPuZaS in the past, what he is thinking about Thorn in the board,and what he Answers was that. "I won't play Thorn in this deck (It's not THAT problem for a combodeck and you will lose a whole turn)"
YawG
Yeah, I though about it, actually... I wanted to know what was the results against combo... nice that you already have done some tests... against which decks did you try it out?
Against TES, ANT, Painter, and less competitive like Solidarity or Belcher, or any other combo-like, Chalice @0 would be good only against TES/ANT, and even so, not extremely useful...
And we can't afford for chalice@1 or 2 anyways...
Maybe we could side Bounty of the Hunt for some creature, and try to combo faster? We would have 8 0cc growths, and like 12 1cc, and zerks.
No idea on how fast we can be w/out our protection and amount of creatures though.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Not only do we have a slower goldfish than ANT, but by default we also have exactly zero hate cards for the matchup. I'm sorry, but that's just not winnable unless we get sick draws twice in a row or they mulligan into oblivion. Aside from the perfect draws that can kill T2, we usually kill T3-T5, ANT has absolutely no problem pulling solid T1-3 kills while disrupting us. How do we even race them if they Duress and snag our Berserk?
It doesn't get much better postboard -- CotV is better against us than them, Thorn slows us down just as much as them, Teeg/Cannonist require a splash, and Mindbreak Trap is certified awful. Not only do none of those assure us a win, but we have no ways to protect them from Duress/bounce/Silence they still have a faster kill than we do. It doesn't change that you need to be something of a lucksack to win the match, so I think it's a lot more efficient to just spend the SB spaces on matches that we can actually win.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
You are saying that your opinion is towards ditching the machup and do some previous prayer so that we don't face a lot of them?
It's not exactly a bad idea, since Legacy is filled with control and aggro-control decks, which is also why we can afford to play this deck: we are somewhat good against them...
Although, I still fell like we should use 4-of whatever best option we get against those combos to try to amplify our chances, if it's a probable combo-infested meta. I mean, even if our option is not optimal, if it will increase our chances, we should use it, since, even in a combo-infested meta, aggro & control always has it's slice of the chart...
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Well Otter is kinda right. I think ditching the combo matchup is a good idea. You wont get a good matchup against combo even after boarding, so just let it go. And at least in my meta, you have a hard time finding combo players, so it´s better to go all out and get good cards into the sideboard against other matchups.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Combo is not THAT hard as a matchup for Berserk Stompy.
At least in Spain, the most played Combo decks are ANt and Elves! (and Ichorid).
I have thrown away the Tormod's just because you won't always win with a single Tormod's nor the game neither time enough to win the game. I prefer to play as fast as possible and win if the other player Mulls down/missplays or you combo him out of the game.
Elves are a favorable matchup, you can destroy them just by playing Skarrgan Pit-Skulk and pumping it twice or thrice.
ANT is the worst combo matchup, and even in that situation you can win them by taking most of his life out. Asume this: You are playing against a Canadian and you take him down to 4-5 life, wasting your hand/Berserk/Invigorates... You are surely going to lose. But if you are playing against an ANT and you take him down to 4-5 life (or let's say 8-10) in the second turn, wasting your hand/Berserk/Invigorates... and leaving a creture in the ground... The game is not that hard to win if you shut their Ad Nauseams.
At least, tha's what I think (And what testing shows). I have also sided 4 Mindbreak Trap to surprise them, but I didn't face any ANT last weekend... So I can't tell how good they are.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gui_Brasil
You are saying that your opinion is towards ditching the machup and do some previous prayer so that we don't face a lot of them?
It's not exactly a bad idea, since Legacy is filled with control and aggro-control decks, which is also why we can afford to play this deck: we are somewhat good against them...
Although, I still fell like we should use 4-of whatever best option we get against those combos to try to amplify our chances, if it's a probable combo-infested meta. I mean, even if our option is not optimal, if it will increase our chances, we should use it, since, even in a combo-infested meta, aggro & control always has it's slice of the chart...
Yeah, my line of thinking is pretty much that if we board for all the control and aggro-control decks and can just slaughter them, that's enough. Losing one match to combo and winning the rest can still get you T8. Of course, this only works if you only expect a little combo. If you expect to see a combo-infested meta, I just wouldn't play this deck, period. If it's the only deck that you have built, I guess that trying to board some Mindbreaks or something so that you have a chance is the best option you have.
But seriously, if your meta is combo-infested, play a deck that involves Chalice & Trinisphere or Countertop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CHaPuZaS
Combo is not THAT hard as a matchup for Berserk Stompy.
At least in Spain, the most played Combo decks are ANt and Elves! (and Ichorid).
I have thrown away the Tormod's just because you won't always win with a single Tormod's nor the game neither time enough to win the game. I prefer to play as fast as possible and win if the other player Mulls down/missplays or you combo him out of the game.
Elves are a favorable matchup, you can destroy them just by playing Skarrgan Pit-Skulk and pumping it twice or thrice.
ANT is the worst combo matchup, and even in that situation you can win them by taking most of his life out. Asume this: You are playing against a Canadian and you take him down to 4-5 life, wasting your hand/Berserk/Invigorates... You are surely going to lose. But if you are playing against an ANT and you take him down to 4-5 life (or let's say 8-10) in the second turn, wasting your hand/Berserk/Invigorates... and leaving a creture in the ground... The game is not that hard to win if you shut their Ad Nauseams.
At least, tha's what I think (And what testing shows). I have also sided 4 Mindbreak Trap to surprise them, but I didn't face any ANT last weekend... So I can't tell how good they are.
I'm completely with you about Elves, Skarrgan absolutely destroys their plan of "Play 20 guys and pass the turn." Not a terrible matchup as far as combo goes.
I agree with you that Berserking a guy as soon as possible to get the ANT player low on life is a very smart plan, but I think you're overstating its effectiveness, at least depending on their list. If they're going with the Silence/Chant plan, you have a good chance of being able to get them really low. However, if they are using Duress, taking a Berserk buys them a lot of time. Note that while Mindbreak Trap is kinda nice, it also turns their Silences from bad timewalks back into fully useful cards.
Another problem is that turning off Ad Nauseam isn't that good against the lists that only play 1-2 copies of it along with 1 IGG. Going with the Infernal -> IGG plan isn't going to cost them any life and they have plenty of tutors to search it up if they need it.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
I'd like to focus just for a moment on the mana base...strictly for Mono Green. The reason I bring this up is because the most common list is running 6-8 fetch lands with nothing else to fetch aside from Forest. I'm beginning to think that the potential deck thinning isn't worth the trouble. I recently lost to White Stax because of being unable to pay for Tabernacles and the sideboarded Ghostly prisons. I ended up fetching up every single land in the deck and was just cursing the uselessness of the fetches. I had two Kavus on board and Invigorate/Berserk in hand but could not get through the stall.
I'm considering upping the land count to 18-19ish with some newer tech that reduces the risk of a land light opening 7 and abandoning the fetchlands altogether...
12 Forest
4 Horizon Canopy
2-3 PendelHaven
I've been testing the PendelHavens already (3 with 14 Forests) and in well over twenty games it was well worth the spot. Silhana, Bogle, Pit Skulk, and Scryb Sprites(yes I play them still) love to see a Pendelhaven on the table.
I did notice occasional land flooding with this setup and some land screw too, which is why I started thinking about upping the land count and Canopy to smooth things out.
[edit] The side benefit is that you're not constantly shuffling the deck in every game. Beta Berserks thank you for this[/edit]
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
I don't play fetchlands either. I don't like to be more vulnerable to stifle, and don't like the shuffle effect. But I respect whoever runs it, I simply dont care.
I run 18 plain forest, which is more stable against almost every land-hate.
Also, I don't use extra non-basic for the same reason I stick to monogreen. I don't like wastelands slowing me down. But there again, it's an option. Just not the general option...
But Horizon Canopy seems quite nice...
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
I will always stick to basic lands in the monogreen version. Sure Canopy and Pendelhaven are "strictly" better than a Forest... In theory, but not in the format where Wasteland is the king. You'll be facing too many situations where your opponents can get rid of you just by taking out your Canopy (Not to say when you have a Pendelhaven in hand and in play, belive me, it happen me like 8 years ago in a 300 people vintage tournament).
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CHaPuZaS
I will always stick to basic lands in the monogreen version. Sure Canopy and Pendelhaven are "strictly" better than a Forest... In theory, but not in the format where Wasteland is the king. You'll be facing too many situations where your opponents can get rid of you just by taking out your Canopy (Not to say when you have a Pendelhaven in hand and in play, belive me, it happen me like 8 years ago in a 300 people vintage tournament).
What about Wastelands, ever considered running then?
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CHaPuZaS
I will always stick to basic lands in the monogreen version. Sure Canopy and Pendelhaven are "strictly" better than a Forest... In theory, but not in the format where Wasteland is the king. You'll be facing too many situations where your opponents can get rid of you just by taking out your Canopy (Not to say when you have a Pendelhaven in hand and in play, belive me, it happen me like 8 years ago in a 300 people vintage tournament).
Yes I understand that can happen but this is why you cant just continue to run 17 lands at that point. If you go up to 19 then you can afford to have something wasted and still expect to stick 2 or 3 on the table.
Now think late game. If your opponent manages to neutralize your early threats enough to stay alive, Pendelhaven cuts your clock in half if you're stuck with a 1/1 (hope it's Ledgewalker). If you topdeck a fetchland, it's a land no matter what, however, saccing a Canopy, topdecked or already in play, is more than two thirds threat, i.e., not land. Note, this is all of course just theorizing until I get s'more time and Canopies to test it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gui_Brasil
What about Wastelands, ever considered running then?
No. I've never considered it for a moment. Basically, If it does't tap for green, I don't want it...and yes, that includes fetchlands at the moment.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
@ CHaPuZaS: ...how were the Vines of Vastwood in the tournament?
Do you liked/disliked them? ...are 2 of them the right number? ...would be nice to get some feedback...
P.S. ...test the Nettle Sentinels, seriously... it's like I told you, that they are superior to Maniacs and Lions =P=P=P
YawG
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
If you play the multicolored version (Grw) you can play Pyrostatic pillar which is soo good vs ANT elves and combo ;) besides of any type of red removal clasm (cause your guys are 3 resistance or greater ;) ).
The bad thing is that stifle and wastes are bad for you so up the count lands to 20 (8+8+4)).
In the monocolored version the only thing you can do against combo is being faster than him, so be lucky ;)
I´ve tested pendelhaven and canopys. Pendelhaven falls from my list when i decided to use big monsters (nacatl, herds, etc), now the only little guys i´m using are silhanas and sometimes boggles so they are not welcome here. If i was playing MONOG, i only use a couple of them. More than that are too much. Canopys are good on paper, but not as good as you can think on the play because it´s wasteable, yo need mana to play critters and pump and can´t not spend time on drawing cards with them and have a low count of lands so it´s not as good as you can think playing them.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
umbowta
No. I've never considered it for a moment. Basically, If it does't tap for green, I don't want it...and yes, that includes fetchlands at the moment.
Well, wastelands are not to be a replacement of forests, I never said they were.
The main reason I would run wastelands is that it will see play situations in 90% of the matchs it comes into play. Basically, it tries to slow my opponent down to a land count similar to mine, while it can also be used to hate problematic ability lands, as rishadean or maze.
Raising the land count, let's say, to 17 forests + 3~4 wastelands, also will let you run krosan grip more confortably as sideboard...
But that's just my considerations about wastelands, which may not fit our game plan.
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Re: [Deck] Berserk Stompy
hello guys...
after a bit of testing, and a friend of mine playing this deck on a tournament, we found out, that you can easily run only 14-15 lands (without fetches) in the deck...
...we got only one time screwed to 1 mana, and we get the 3rd land drop on turn 3-4 over 90% of the time...
...just wanted to inform you about that
YawG
