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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Maybe. But Natural Order has been printed twice, while Show and Tell/ Dream Halls were printed only once and they are pretty scarce even back then. Also both of these blue cards can be broken in Vintage format.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Reading is tech haha. As a mainly Vintage player I don't think that people will play Show and Tell with Dream Halls as there are better things to do there and the metagame for the most part is more defined. The reason that Dream Halls has seen success is that the format is generally of lower power level than Vintage which opens the door to more new strategies. Dream Halls combo is one of these strategies that will likely not go on to Vintage especially when Time Vault Voltaic Key is in the format. I might be wrong, but I doubt that Dream Halls will see much if any play in Vintage.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
majikal
But I'm sure there are a good deal of collectors who would go absolutely apeshit if Tabernacle or some other ridiculously priced card like Imperial Seal were reprinted.
I gotta ask...so what? Honestly, let them eat cock.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I think that prices are going to stay high even when people realize that retainers is maybe not the new Dark Depths.
It's the Rishadan Port principle-a card that sees corner case play in maybe one deck but people are unwilling to value them at their actual utility.
That said, speculation really is its own antidote because without people being able to try decks cheaply, the growth of demand for the cards is dramatically stunted.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MattH
I gotta ask...so what? Honestly, let them eat cock.
Hmmmm. I, and eveyone I know playing Legacy, are willing to pay the price of duals and stuff under the dogma that these cards will never lost monetary value and can be re-sold. Seriously, do you own a Tabernacle or an Imperial Seal? If you do, then I'll respect you infinitely for saying such a thing.
But if I knew that tomorrow Wizards would be printing dollars in the form of M2011 Underground Seas I would quit playing this format.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
godryk
Hmmmm. I, and eveyone I know playing Legacy, are willing to pay the price of duals and stuff under the dogma that these cards will never lost monetary value and can be re-sold. Seriously, do you own a Tabernacle or an Imperial Seal? If you do, then I'll respect you infinitely for saying such a thing.
But if I knew that tomorrow Wizards would be printing dollars in the form of M2011 Underground Seas I would quit playing this format.
Baneslayer angel can still be "bought" in boosters, but that doesn't seem to keep the price down. Hell it's more expensive than most duals, so why do you think, that reprinting duals would lower their value? They would certainly not be played in less decks.
If wizards were to reprint tabernacle, I don't think it would lower the price of the original much. Maybe by $50-100, but isn't that as bad as if you sold off a moat 1 year ago? You would have "lost" around $50.
The old originals will still be worth quite a lot, mainly because they are originals (and quite rare), and that Magic is a collectible card game.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
godryk
Hmmmm. I, and eveyone I know playing Legacy, are willing to pay the price of duals and stuff under the dogma that these cards will never lost monetary value and can be re-sold. Seriously, do you own a Tabernacle or an Imperial Seal? If you do, then I'll respect you infinitely for saying such a thing.
But if I knew that tomorrow Wizards would be printing dollars in the form of M2011 Underground Seas I would quit playing this format.
word, one thing people seems to miss is that buying cards isnt a dead investment ... as they will always worth more by the time goes by .... and yes then again wizzard should NEVER reprint such staples even using the FTV crap. And people also seems to forget that Type 2 remain the most expensive format, as you always have to buy and rebuy new cards, in legacy u just have to buy them once and contrary to type 2 when u ll feel like reselling them, the price will be at worse the same, contrary to type 2 where cards lose like 50% if not more.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MattH
I gotta ask...so what? Honestly, let them eat cock.
Wow... that is exactly the attitude that makes me so upset when people talk about reprinting cards for purely financial reasons.
I assume you must feel entitled to have access to every card WotC ever made, and that's fine - everyone wants stuff. That being said, you do have to realize that there are those of us who have worked very hard to earn the money to buy the expensive cards out there that we own. I'm not saying I deserve a prize or anything - it was my choice to give up the fruits of my labor to buy cardboard. In addition, I know there is no guarantee that my cards will retain their value - they could tank tomorrow, and I'd be out my money. That's just life.
However, when people come along and say essentially "screw you and your hard work, I want those cards too, for cheap" it does irritate me. I think WotC does a good job contolling the release of cards to both maximize their profits (they are a business) and keep the game enjoyable for the most players possible. If at some point it became obvious that reprinting certain cards was necessary to keep the game going (not sure if we're there or not, that's another debate), I'd be fine with that decision. But please understand that when you make comments like yours you are treating my time and effort as being worthless, and that's not fair.
I'm not trying to single you out, as you most likely are a fine person (you do play Magic, after all :wink: ); rather it is that attitude that seems so prevalent in our society today that really bothers me.
Sigh... I must be getting old.
Take it easy,
Jared
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
The collector argument boils down to this:
You're a collector, you bought/traded/acquired cards for the sake of having a collection. Suddenly a card is reprinted. How does this diminish your collection? NOT ONE BIT. The true collector worries not about monetary value, because they are not collecting to sell. They are collecting to collect. I fail to see (logically anyway) how reprinting a card with that crappy new frame would diminish the sentimental value of the older card.
It is the speculators/dealers that are not going to be happy to see reprints ruin the value of their inventory; and that will be more than made up with more business from new inventory. This is also a risk of the market, and is totally within the bounds of the financial risk in investing in fluctuating markets.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I'm fine with high prices. It's ok, really. But what bothers me is, that the pillars of the format (Duals) aren't available to everyone. their number is too limited.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nidd
I'm fine with high prices. It's ok, really. But what bothers me is, that the pillars of the format (Duals) aren't available to everyone. their number is too limited.
This. Really, if it has been in any core set outside of ABU, it should be allowed to be reprinted, because these cards were at one point considered the core of the game outside of the initial launch.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rukcus
The collector argument boils down to this:
You're a collector, you bought/traded/acquired cards for the sake of having a collection. Suddenly a card is reprinted. How does this diminish your collection? NOT ONE BIT. The true collector worries not about monetary value, because they are not collecting to sell. They are collecting to collect. I fail to see (logically anyway) how reprinting a card with that crappy new frame would diminish the sentimental value of the older card.
This! THIS! THIS THIS THIS!
That's exactly what I was going to write, glad a lot of people look at this the same way. The same is true for all that "If they reprint USea I'm gonna quit!"-talk. People would QUIT the game if some of their cards would drop in value? What does that accomplish? People try to kind of blackmail Wizards to not reprint certain cards by threating to quit the game...but who cares? It's so ridiculous to quit the game because you're cards are now worth less. So why are you playing this game after all? Even if my cards would suddenly only be worth nothing anymore I'd continue playing Magic because I take joy in it! I guess people who threaten quitting the game are the same people who feel bad once their oh-so-exclusive mobile phone suddenly drops in price and everyone can afford it. I'm not talking dealers . I can totally see why dealers would move away from Magic if Wizards reprinted some goodies. But that's not the point...
Oh and by the way, although I sold a lot I still own enough stuff that might drop some of it's value if it got reprinted. Or would it?! It's clear that stuff like duals would be Mythic Rares. Look at Baneslayer, he's worth 40+ Euros. Even the most expensive dual isn't worth 40 Euros. If reprinting Duals would actually make them drop im price it would be to a much lesser degree than people think.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
This argument reminds me of Tom Lapille's recent article about blue in standard.
Basically a bunch of people posted in the article thread about what they want and not what's good for the game.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Julian23
This! THIS! THIS THIS THIS!
That's exactly what I was going to write, glad a lot of people look at this the same way. The same is true for all that "If they reprint USea I'm gonna quit!"-talk. People would QUIT the game if some of their cards would drop in value? What does that accomplish? People try to kind of blackmail Wizards to not reprint certain cards by threating to quit the game...but who cares? It's so ridiculous to quit the game because you're cards are now worth less. So why are you playing this game after all? Even if my cards would suddenly only be worth nothing anymore I'd continue playing Magic because I take joy in it! I guess people who threaten quitting the game are the same people who feel bad once their oh-so-exclusive mobile phone suddenly drops in price and everyone can afford it. I'm not talking dealers . I can totally see why dealers would move away from Magic if Wizards reprinted some goodies. But that's not the point...
Oh and by the way, although I sold a lot I still own enough stuff that might drop some of it's value if it got reprinted. Or would it?! It's clear that stuff like duals would be Mythic Rares. Look at Baneslayer, he's worth 40+ Euros. Even the most expensive dual isn't worth 40 Euros. If reprinting Duals would actually make them drop im price it would be to a much lesser degree than people think.
I agree with this to an extent. HOWEVER, I strongly feel that things that are highly expensive based solely on their scarcity (P3K, Legends, Arabian Nights, ABU, etc) should be left alone. Dual lands are not expensive based on scarcity for the most part. There is a LOT of Revised out there. Unfortunately, there are more decks that need dual lands than can be accommodated.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thulnanth
Wow... that is exactly the attitude that makes me so upset when people talk about reprinting cards for purely financial reasons.
I assume you must feel entitled to have access to every card WotC ever made, and that's fine - everyone wants stuff. That being said, you do have to realize that there are those of us who have worked very hard to earn the money to buy the expensive cards out there that we own. I'm not saying I deserve a prize or anything - it was my choice to give up the fruits of my labor to buy cardboard. In addition, I know there is no guarantee that my cards will retain their value - they could tank tomorrow, and I'd be out my money. That's just life.
However, when people come along and say essentially "screw you and your hard work, I want those cards too, for cheap" it does irritate me. I think WotC does a good job contolling the release of cards to both maximize their profits (they are a business) and keep the game enjoyable for the most players possible. If at some point it became obvious that reprinting certain cards was necessary to keep the game going (not sure if we're there or not, that's another debate), I'd be fine with that decision. But please understand that when you make comments like yours you are treating my time and effort as being worthless, and that's not fair.
I'm not trying to single you out, as you most likely are a fine person (you do play Magic, after all :wink: ); rather it is that attitude that seems so prevalent in our society today that really bothers me.
Sigh... I must be getting old.
Take it easy,
Jared
But, to look at it from another angle, the value of cards is hinged on the game, not collectiblity per se. Why is Baneslayer Angel at present worth more than any other M10 mythic rare? Why are the Masticores I bought at $15 a piece years ago now only $5 or less and dual lands are steadily rising? Players drive prices more than collectors, and I think that was the point Matt was trying to make (not that I can speak for him, but I kind of share this view). I think "let them eat cock" was a harsh way of putting that availability and health of the game is more important than maintaining card values for a few people. That, of course, implies that card values would necessarily plunge, which isn't always the case.
Even old staples we expect to maintain value – I'm looking at you Mana Drain – have felt the effects of tournament play. At the end of the day, we are all speculators, and we all gain some and lose some. Saying "I work hard for my cards and therefore none should be reprinted" is just as glib as "let them eat cock." The health of the game (including card availability and format affordability) are essential for a healthy secondary market.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
The only reason that I see for reprinting is to make the format available to everybody and I see no harm in that. More players means the format will evolve more and more + bigger tournaments!
I myself though have collected a playset of every dual, fetch and expensive playable rare (except Moat etc which you barely play as a 4-off). I spend time searching for these at reasonable prices/trades. Spent time playing tournaments to win them or paid cash to acquire them. I can understand that people who have gone through similar effort are against the reprinting.
It's much like real life though. You buy a new pc, something new comes out a while later and your pc decreases in value. Only here, the pc you bought is the best of the best and will never be made again so you'll have to do with the ones that are available. Pc's are known to malfunction, people who have one don't sell etc so the availability decreases and the price increases.
But is the availability really so low? And even if you can't buy them for yourself, is there no one you could borrow them from?
I share my collection with my team and even other people that ask me if they can borrow cards. I don't think the time for reprints has arrived yet but feel that eventually it will become a necesarry evil.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Another point I would like to add: Do you really think that Duals are that costly because they are so rare? or are they that expensive because nearly every deck needs them?
If you think you have the answer, look at Tarmogoyf. Or BSA. They aren't expensive because they are that rare, there are enough of them. They are expensive because they are powerful.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
godryk
Hmmmm. I, and eveyone I know playing Legacy, are willing to pay the price of duals and stuff under the dogma that these cards will never lost monetary value and can be re-sold. Seriously, do you own a Tabernacle or an Imperial Seal? If you do, then I'll respect you infinitely for saying such a thing.
But if I knew that tomorrow Wizards would be printing dollars in the form of M2011 Underground Seas I would quit playing this format.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MMogg
Even old staples we expect to maintain value – I'm looking at you Mana Drain – have felt the effects of tournament play. At the end of the day, we are all speculators, and we all gain some and lose some. Saying "I work hard for my cards and therefore none should be reprinted" is just as glib as "let them eat cock." The health of the game (including card availability and format affordability) are essential for a healthy secondary market.
I'd like to clarify my earlier comments as I may sound too radical due to linguistic limitations. It's a fact that the format is seeing more and more play this year due to 2 GPs and all the SCG $5k thing, I think that more and bigger tournaments imply a healthier format. But this also makes Legacy staples more demanded what means prices raising (with a little help speculators). I understand that this process may end up with Legacy being so expensive that exclude new players. I have to agree that some form of reediting some staples has to be found, so that Legacy doesn't die as Vintage is pretty much doing.
I just wanted to raise a very common thought of most of legacy players I know and that has to be considered and respected. That hypothetical reprint of Legacy staples should be carefuly studied.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nidd
Another point I would like to add: Do you really think that Duals are that costly because they are so rare? or are they that expensive because nearly every deck needs them?
If you think you have the answer, look at Tarmogoyf. Or BSA. They aren't expensive because they are that rare, there are enough of them. They are expensive because they are powerful.
Tarmogoyf might be cosidered rare if we look at the fact that a LOT of people a conserving their playset and don't want to trade them, even if they have more than four. Therefor, there is not enough supply for the demand and creates rarity.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Good Morning,
For what it is worth, here are my thoughts. As a long time magic player and supporter of the game, I have been blessed with a pretty reasonable collection of staples. I will not quit the game if we see reprints of duals or other sought after staples of the format but I will be dissipointed.
Wizards has created several formats that get far more press and tournaments than legacy which contain only cards that are currently available in booster packs. Legacy is a format that allows almost every card ever printed and in general; to own a great legacy deck, you should buy in to the format (literally). If you want a format whose best cards are currently available in packs, perhaps legacy is not for you. That is part of the appeal of the format. I just puchased a tabernacle for over 2 hundred because I will appreciate it and play it. I saved for a while to get that card and I will enjoy it more for that.
If legacy matters to you and you really want to play it competitively, spend your money acquiring legacy staples rather than buying baneslayers for 60 bucks. It has been said more times than I want to count but legacy is less expensive over the long haul than standard. Instead of saying that WOTC should pave the road for you by reprinting expensive staples of an old format, save and trade your way into a deck you can truely be proud of.
-Peace
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I see you don't adress the point of card availability.
What do you think is the logical evolution of the Legacy scene expanding, if WotC decides to not to reprint old staples like the Duals?
The format stagnates because it can't expand anymore. There won't be enough Duals for all people.
I have a vision of Dragon Stompy and Merfolk being the most-played decks in the format...*shudders*
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Availability,
It is not that there may be no duals available it is that they will cost more. It is true that as more people become interested in the format for various reasons that cards that have a defined print run will increase in value markedly if they are used in a legacy deck. What is also true is that almost everyone has his/her price.
There will always be duals on the open market because some fraction of the owners value the money they can get from a dual more than the dual itself. When underground sea reaches 120.00 US there will be people that will sell off thier underground seas because 480.00 is worth more to them then having a playset. Conversely, there will be people that would like them enough to pay that much for them.
The point I am making is that there will always be staples available at places like ebay and that if you want a card and are willing to pay marketvalue, then you will have little trouble making a legacy deck. Make no mistake, legacy staples will always be available for new players, but thier price may not be easy to swallow.
-Peace
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
godryk
Hmmmm. I, and eveyone I know playing Legacy, are willing to pay the price of duals and stuff under the dogma that these cards will never lost monetary value and can be re-sold. Seriously, do you own a Tabernacle or an Imperial Seal? If you do, then I'll respect you infinitely for saying such a thing.
I own 16 blue duals, 10 other duals, 12 FoW, 4 LED, 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, 1 Sea Drake, 3 Tarmogoyf (I know, I know, wtf), plenty of fetches, and playsets of other non-cheap cards like Survival, Mox Diamond, Jitte, Natural Order, and Wasteland. I bought a Loyal Retainers recently, too.
And I would rejoice if these cards were reprinted, because I didn't buy these cards as an investment, I bought them to play with. In that light, a reprinting that crashes prices makes my cards MORE valuable to me, because if the format grows, I get to use them more often!
I'm only able to play this format seriously because I managed to buy those cards cheaply, so I know from personal experience that the price of the format is a serious barrier to entry. Why should I deny to others the opportunity that I had, to buy these cards cheaply? If speculators get burned, well that's the fucking risk of speculating now isn't it.
Quote:
But if I knew that tomorrow Wizards would be printing dollars in the form of M2011 Underground Seas I would quit playing this format.
This is so dumb. Why would you quit playing? Your cards don't suddenly not work just because there's new versions around. It's not suddenly any less awesome to fight through a counterwall, or to bash with dudes, or to bait out a Force, or to break new tech, or to salivate while flipping through your deck finding the perfect thing to get with Survival. This stuff is awesome regardless of how much I paid to do it. Do you really dislike Magic so much?
Quote:
However, when people come along and say essentially "screw you and your hard work, I want those cards too, for cheap" it does irritate me.
As above, I have pretty much everything I need to play any deck. True, I don't own a Tabernacle, but as I have no desire whatsoever to play any deck with that card it doesn't matter much to me. I have plenty of money put into cards specifically for this format to make the statements I do. This is a conversation between Haves about the Have-Nots - some Haves want to pull the ladder up behind them, and some (myself included) think that's a bad idea.
If there is a prevailing attitude today that is bothersome, it's "I got mine, fuck you."
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
While I am much more heavily invested than Matt, (60 duals, etc. etc.)I wouldn't mind a card reprinted if a deck or strategy that called for 4 of a card that was say over $100 or $150 was dominating the format.
I.e. if Imperial Painter was taking first in every tournament then I would say do we need to ban a piece of imperial painter or reprint recruiter so everyone could play it?
I also feel that speculators should severely be punished every once in a while by reprinting something that disappeared from stock all over, all of a sudden i.e. Loyal Retainer (probably reprinted as a Mythic).
This would serve 2 purposes:
1. Make wizards more money by selling packs i.e. whatever stupid boxed set they come up with.
2. Curtail the artificial inflation of prices by a few individuals. Things like dual lands are apparently too hard to do otherwise I am sure we would be seeing $500 Revised Underground Seas
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nidd
I see you don't adress the point of card availability.
What do you think is the logical evolution of the Legacy scene expanding, if WotC decides to not to reprint old staples like the Duals?
The format stagnates because it can't expand anymore. There won't be enough Duals for all people.
I have a vision of Dragon Stompy and Merfolk being the most-played decks in the format...*shudders*
That's already showing, Merfolk, Storm and LED-less Dredge make way more appearances then they should if you go after Top 8-finishes. Decks like Aggro Loam and Lands had much better results yet they don't show as often.
At some point Wizards will have to make the decision to reprint Legacy stables or let the Format die. Luckily we are not there yet, Legacy keeps growing, but with limited acces to Stables this will not last forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MattH
because I didn't buy these cards as an investment, I bought them to play with.
QFT
Most cards on the secondary market are bought by people who want to play with them. Sure, my Duals might loose a little value (even with reprints I highly doubt that) but many more players would have the opportunity to play Legacy, so thats a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MattH
I own 16 blue duals, 10 other duals, 12 FoW, 4 LED, 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, 1 Sea Drake, 3 Tarmogoyf (I know, I know, wtf), plenty of fetches, and playsets of other non-cheap cards like Survival, Mox Diamond, Jitte, Natural Order, and Wasteland. I bought a Loyal Retainers recently, too.
And I would rejoice if these cards were reprinted, because I didn't buy these cards as an investment, I bought them to play with. In that light, a reprinting that crashes prices makes my cards MORE valuable to me, because if the format grows, I get to use them more often!
I'm only able to play this format seriously because I managed to buy those cards cheaply, so I know from personal experience that the price of the format is a serious barrier to entry. Why should I deny to others the opportunity that I had, to buy these cards cheaply? If speculators get burned, well that's the fucking risk of speculating now isn't it.
This is so dumb. Why would you quit playing? Your cards don't suddenly not work just because there's new versions around. It's not suddenly any less awesome to fight through a counterwall, or to bash with dudes, or to bait out a Force, or to break new tech, or to salivate while flipping through your deck finding the perfect thing to get with Survival. This stuff is awesome regardless of how much I paid to do it. Do you really dislike Magic so much?"
I'll eat my words as I think I misunderstood you, maybe because that "eat your cock" thing (in my defense I will say that I wrote that half asleep). I've never considered MTG as an investment, but we all like the financial value in playing Legacy, as cards usually keep their value. But after thinking a bit more about it I came to the conclussion that reprinting things like duals (as mythic rares maybe) wouldn't be as harmful as I previosly thought and wouldn't low the value of the original ones so much, at least for non speculative purpose. So I must admit that this thread is changing some of my previous predjuces about this topic.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I like the treasure idea too so that even though you don't print new ones they are redistributed to people that are much more apt to play with them.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jazzykat
I like the treasure idea too so that even though you don't print new ones they are redistributed to people that are much more apt to play with them.
that's the best way indeed, let's just hope blizzard have tons of old stocks.
Anyway i am not that sure a reprint would drasticaly reduce the duals lands/Fow/MD/LED prices as the only way to reprint them is in a FTV box (u don't wanna see them in T2/Extended right?), so they ll be foil, and as most of MTG player are completely tasteless (understand it like this "OH SHINY(ugly but yet indeed subjective) CARD ME LIKE ME PAY 3/4/5/6/x TIME THE PRICE I DONT CARE" but in the meantime they complain about P3K cards prices), they ll rush to get those foil duals/fow/whatever, so don't expect the new price to be lower than the current one at all.
P3K, Arabian, Legend, antiquities, or anyother Non-foil edition, should never be reprinted as u want your format to evolve, not to be stucked in old metas.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I guess this call all be translated to "what if the Black Lotus and moxen were let back into Legacy?" Not that this would happen, but hypothetically if it did, what would you think of having to buy $1000 sets of cards (because you know the price would skyrocket instantly) just to keep up? Yeah, that would suck.
Eventually, it may come to that point with some of these cards. Especially Three Kingdoms as they are the least printed from what I knew. Can you imagine having to dish out $8000 for a card that makes it quite hard to compete without? Think about an amazing deck coming out that uses some rare from that set? Ouch! You know it would be bad if the uncommons are nuts just in fringe decks.
What some people fail to remember is there are still collectors out there that do not play at all. Eventually, there will come to be a shortage when people realize that sitting on some of these cards is an investment and a large one. I have more than a set of the 80 duals for a reason. They do not go down in price, ever.
Also, sheer luck plays into it some. What about the multitude of cards that are lost or accidentally destroyed making the supply even less as time goes by.
These cards will eventually be horrendously expensive and make Legacy be a format of the rich only. Vintage is already pretty rough to get into with the power. Legacy is headed that direction with the Duals. At least for us, you can partially make do with Ravnica duals.
I just hope they decide that this is the fate of these formats they care little about and decide to cut us some slack by making some FTV sets with the much requested cards.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I'm for the intelligent reprinting of Dual Lands. If it was done well in a mythic rare (incredibly hard to get, even if you buy a box of cards) or as a Judge Promo, where it is again extremely hard to get but still increases the quantity by quite a few, I would be extremely happy.
I don't think this would make the old duals drop in price, just look at the analogy of Final Fantasy 7 (One of if not the the best game ever made). On ebay you can see the discs for the game going for over 60$, but if you own a PS3 you can buy and download the game for 10$, in the comfort of your own home. You would think that it would drop the price of the discs some, but they have stayed at over 60$ from before the release of it on PS3 to now. It's a collectible, just like the old duals are. Hopefully they would drop the price 10$ from where it is now since that's where it was a year ago, but either way is fine.
Even the old Fetchlands aren't dropping almost at all in value after Zendikar is I believe the most successful and widely printed set ever. That may not be a good analogy because the new fetchlands are not exact copies of the old ones, but they serve almost the same purpose and you can easily make a Legacy deck with just new fetches.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Now I'm not entirely sure if what I'm abou to say is correct but...
I don't have staples. Hell, the most I've got is like, 3 Pithing Needles and a ADN deck that is missing LED and Tutor.
So if you asked me - fuck yes, reprint all them good staples.
So yeah this might seem like another Have-not whine, but think about it.
Did STD go down in price when FtV got printed?
How 'bout Chrome Mox as the GP promo last year?
I'll also bet money that even with Jitte being the GP promo this year it's price will remain the same.
How much did the old fetches price change with the release of the new ones?
Just maybe two dollars.
What I'm trying to say is - reprints won't(in most cases) fuck your little price tag over.
What they WILL do is bring many more players into the format - more innovative minds and more players an just more fun in general. So yeah.
And whoever said the thing about "I play 'cause it's fun" you're my fucking hero.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Possibly I'm stating the obvious, but it seems like everyone is in one of two camps. People who own the cards and do not want them reprinted because the price could drop and then there are those who want cards to be reprinted in some way to allow more people to play.
I am sort of sitting on the fence with this issue in the sense that my friend has 80 Duals 8 Goyfs Power etc. and will let me borrow cards whenever I want, and he definitely does not need all of those cards but I wouldn't want him to lose hundreds if not thousands by something that WoTC did on a whim. However, I kick myself for getting rid of my 10-12 blue duals I had when I played Vintage the first time around. If the price was what it had been when I first bought them I would buy back in immediately.
If all of the old/ hard to find cards do continue their upward spiral it should reach a plateau and then fall back towards normalcy. As format interest decreases because you could not play without the astronomically priced cards the price would drop because no one would want to buy them for that price. This vicious cycle of supply and demand should keep the format reasonable, but that theory does not always work. If supply and demand does not hold up then it becomes haves vs. have nots, and format growth completely stops as no one can afford to buy into the format.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Phoenix Ignition
I'm for the intelligent reprinting of Dual Lands. If it was done well in a mythic rare (incredibly hard to get, even if you buy a box of cards)
No, no, no, 1000x NO! This is a terrible idea! It would create even MORE demand for duals in two formats that didn't previously have access to them while only increasing the supply by an insignificant amount. Prices would skyrocket instantly. If the duals are ever reprinted, it needs to be in something like the Duel Decks or FTV.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
majikal
No, no, no, 1000x NO! This is a terrible idea! It would create even MORE demand for duals in two formats that didn't previously have access to them while only increasing the supply by an insignificant amount. Prices would skyrocket instantly. If the duals are ever reprinted, it needs to be in something like the Duel Decks or FTV.
Fine, or as some version of Priceless Treasures. Although I couldn't give a shit about what Standard people have legal to them, from what I hear it's all Jund vs Vampires vs crappy decks anyway. Demand would go up a ton, but there would be so many people buying boxes that it might cancel out with supply.
Nice temper tantrum though lol.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Duals will not be mythic Rares. I think Wizards said that only case Rares that are needed by certain Archetypes but not in the majority of decks will be mythic.
But i guess as long as the Reserved List exists we don't have to worry bout stuff like that =(.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
As someone who has invested enough in this format to build more or less any deck, I'm pretty comfortable in saying that I would rather WotC reprint those cards than let Legacy whither and die (if it ever came to that). Obviously we're not at that point right now, but if the day ever came (and some day it will) when players simply cannot find staples like FoW and Duals then I'd hope they would reprint them in some fashion... I mean what's the point in playing if 70% of the field is running sub-optimal decks due to availability? What's the alternative... sanctioned tourneys with proxies? Banning everything that's too hard to find? Suck it up and play a strictly worse deck? All would be even worse for the value of our cardboard, and more importantly, the health of the format.
I think we can all safely agree that as of right now there really isn't any threat of WotC redistributing anything that sits on the reserved list in a way that would be devastating to the value of the originals - and that the necessity of such a move is in the far distant future.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmagzoo7
Possibly I'm stating the obvious, but it seems like everyone is in one of two camps. People who own the cards and do not want them reprinted because the price could drop and then there are those who want cards to be reprinted in some way to allow more people to play.
I bet most people are in between those two camps. I have about half the dual lands (the ones that see the most play), but I'm still looking for two Seas, two Volcanics and a couple of other ones. I'm concerned that the increasing price of duals and Forces makes it even harder for players to get into the format. To pick up any sort of blue deck, for example, new players are looking at a set of Goyfs, Forces, 7 or 8 blue duals, and 7 to 8 fetchlands. That's $900 at SCG; that means probably about $700 or so if you hunt around. That's a pretty steep starting point. Yes, those cards go into a million decks. Yes, they never rotate. Yes, etc. It's still a very steep investment for someone just starting to play the format, so it seems very reasonable to print some more duals to lower their price.
On the other hand, widely available black-bordered NM dual lands would decrease the value of the old ones considerably. That makes mine worth less, but makes it easier to pick up more. The ones I have would still be worth more than I paid for them, and would still represent a fair amount of money. So I'm ambivalent.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
paK0
Duals will not be mythic Rares. I think Wizards said that only case Rares that are needed by certain Archetypes but not in the majority of decks will be mythic.
right, and they've already ignored that how many times already.
as for reprints, did anyone own a set of psionic blasts before they reprinted them ? what are they worth now compared to before, yeah exactly. BOPs and pithing needles used to be hot. but how much are they worth now ?
also, if they reprinted duals, they'd be blackbordered. so chances are unlimited/revised duals would drop. also, if they were in a core set, they would also have to print them as foils. how much do you think a set of foil u.seas would run ? $400 ? that would drive the price of standard through the roof.
a lot of players commenting more based on biased personal opinion here than actual facts. I dont see as many actual hardcore collectors offering their thoughts. Im a player AND a collector. I buy the cards to play with, but I dont want them to go down in value either. some of you see to be forgetting its a collectible card game, not a trading card game. there is a lot more at stake here than what a handful of people think should happen with the game.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jazzykat
I also feel that speculators should severely be punished every once in a while by reprinting something that disappeared from stock all over, all of a sudden i.e. Loyal Retainer (probably reprinted as a Mythic).
I think this would be severely detrimental to Wizards. Causing sudden drops in the prices of cards would scare collectors away from Magic all together. Collectors would invest their money elsewhere since MTG cards suddenly became a very volatile market. A decrease in demand for their cards is not what Wizards want.
It's simple economics (As others have mentioned) that an increase in supply leads to decrease in price. The only way to offset this (while still increasing supply) is to also increase demand.
If Wizards heavily focus on pushing the legacy format (with tournaments, prizes etc...) as well as reprint legacy staples (with decent rarity, i.e. Mythic) this could keep both collectors and new players happy, boosting the format but not drastically altering the price of the cards. Though it would be a balancing act and collectors may lose faith in MTG at even the mention of reprints.
(as mentioned the reprints couldn't be standard/extended legal or this would increase demand and thus price even moreso).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Magus of the Lolis
right, and they've already ignored that how many times already.
Yep, anyone who says that Mythic Rares were not created for a purpose other than more $$$ for Wizards epic fails.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nizmox
I think this would be severely detrimental to Wizards. Causing sudden drops in the prices of cards would scare collectors away from Magic all together. Collectors would invest their money elsewhere since MTG cards suddenly became a very volatile market. A decrease in demand for their cards is not what Wizards want. blah blah blah blah blah blah
I don't think you get it. For Wizards, there is no "collector". Wizards doesn't sell singles. They sell Booster Packs. Are collectors buying booster boxes to sit on their shelves? Are they buying a case of the newest standard set to crack all the packs? Not likely. They buy/trade singles to "complete" a set.
Players are by far the largest demand for new product. Create a neat set, say M10, with over 50% new cards, and you'll see record sales.
The myth of the collector is bubkis. It is a myth from the time of Chronicles, when printing was small and demand was high. Now we have large printings; granted, still below the demand - but that's good business for WotC (pack sales) and shop owners (singles reselling).
Believe me when I say this, not all are fortunate to be in large metropolis with lots of game shops. In my small town of 40,000, we have 2 game shops that can barely keep enough product to support a single FNM. How is such a phenomenon good for the health of Magic?
