@ E-Tutor:
IBA runs 2 and not 4 is because he also runs Sensei's Divining Top.
@K-Run:
Good luck tomorrow. I'm gonna be greedy and expect a tournament report :P
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@ E-Tutor:
IBA runs 2 and not 4 is because he also runs Sensei's Divining Top.
@K-Run:
Good luck tomorrow. I'm gonna be greedy and expect a tournament report :P
Match 1 vs Maverick
Game 1: I do not draw either Swords or Terminus.
Game 2: I misplay, not casting Humility when I can to keep my land count under opponent's. Gaddock Teeg then enters the battlefield and I'm unable to Terminus.
0-1-0
Match 2 vs Maverick
Game 1: I easily win.
Game 2: I misplay, not ordering my cards correctly with Top.
Game 3: Time is called early on.
0-1-1
Match 3 vs... Maverick
Game 1: Cursed Totem on 2nd turn proves to be enough.
Game 2: My Karakas keeps Thalia out of play and my opponent lacks mana.
Match 4 vs High Tide
Game 1: I think I might have my best possible main deck board vs High Tide (Mistveil Plains and Scroll Rack) but my opponent has Blue Sun's Zenith to kill my dream.
Game 2: I have my hoser (Rule of Law) countered. My deck seemed irrelevant in this matchup.
1-2-1
Some thoughts:
- I really liked having Tithe.
- I think I need a better sideboard vs High Tide, i.e. more Leylines + Greater Auramancy.
- Luminarch Ascension was good too.
- I need to learn to play correctly.
Rule of Law and Ethersworn Canonist are much, much more effective against High Tide than Leylines.
I have some new modifications. I have feeling that deck is still more and more consistent...
EDIT: I have tested today a I did some updates before tournament (* = changed)
DECKLIST v4.1:
Mana Base (17+5+2)
11x Plains
*2x Wasteland (removed 1x Mistveil Plains & 1x Kor Haven)
4x City of Traitors
3x Mox Diamond
2x Chrome Mox
*2x Tithe (new added, seems to be good, but more testing needed...)
Kill (2)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant (in 4 tournaments I have used Elspeth only once to kill opponent...) :smile:
1x Luminarch Ascension (good kill condition under scepter/chant lock, solitary, moat)
*3x Land Tax (one removed for 2nd Tithe based on K-Run's list...)
3x Scroll Rack
1x Humility
1x Moat
1x Zuran Orb
1x Story Circle
2x Isochron Scepter
4x Orim's Chant
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Ghostly Prison
4x Enlightened Tutor
3x Swords to Plowshares (I have decided not to use PtE anymore as it was very often disadvantage for me when opponent put another land and accelerated...)
1x Pithing Needle
2x Noxious Revival (very good with Terminus, killed Elspeth, Wastelands, ...)
*3x Terminus (with Revival's perfect, I have completely removed Wrath of God)
*1x Ethersworn Canonist (1x Powder Keg moved to sideboard, hope Canonist will be better in my metagame...)
*1x Sensei's Diving Top - Based on K-run's post below (removed Solitary Confinement (used only rarely))
Sibeboard:
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Pithing Needle
1x Cursed Totem
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Surgical Extraction
*1x Powder Keg (removed from main deck)
*1x Ethersworn Canonist (one moved to main deck)
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
*1x Aura of Silence (one removed for 2md Timely Reinforcements)
*2x Timely Reinforcements (new added, not yet tested)
From big list of possible maindeck cards I'm thinking about to test maindeck some of these cards after finishing with testing of the current new added cards. What do you think about these cards and please share your experience with them:
Mana Base & Lands: (possible remove -1x Kor Haven, -2x Wasteland, maybe -1x Plains - how many Plains is needed for Land Tax (minimum)??? )
- 1-2x Tithe
- 3-4x Scrying Sheets + SnowCovered Plains
- 1x Serra's Sanctum - I have tested a bit, but seems to me not very helpfull in early game phase as my enchantments are mana expensive, so I had usually Sanctum for 0-2mana. In late game it was good, but I had often already everything under control... I vintage I never played Sanctum too, I used to play Tolarian Academy. With moxen, zuran and another cheap artifacts great from beginning to pay my mana intensive cards (charbelcher, jester's cap, decree of justice, ...)
- 4th Mox Diamond
Kill Conditions:
- 1x Mistveil Plains (maybe backup kill condition, but comes into play tapped...)
- 2x Painter's Servant + 2x Grindstone
- 2x Batterskull (only without Mystic...) (5mana is too much for me I think)
Searching & other:
- 1-2x Sensei's Diving Top (not sure about benefit as I have scroll rack/enlig.tutors...)
- 2x Abeyance
Board Control:
- 2x Suppression Fileld
- 1x Aura of Silence (maybe I will put one copy back to main, but now it seems to work without...)
- 1x Cataclysm
- 3-4x Mana Tithe
- 1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
- 1x Nevermore
- 1x Karakas
- 1x Maze of Ith
- 1x Ethersworn Canonist
- 1x Porphyry Nodes
@Pelikanudo
- Reito Lantern is good, but it is one slot which I don't have, so Mistveil Plains is better for me
- I have removed Charbelcher as it was a bit slow with non-basic land I play now. I don't know about you guys, but I usually win game one not by killing opponent, but because he resign. :laugh: Sometimes it seems that I really don't need any kill conditions... So I have decided to cut my kill conditions to minimum. Currently for me Elspeth+Luminarch is enough (plus very rarely scroll rack or scepter+noxious). While Argivian Find in main I prefered to play Charbelcher over Elspeth as I had no chance to take it back from graveyard but Noxious solved this issue...)
Some tips for discussion to all of you:
- is 4x Scroll Rack not too much?
- is Sensei's really needed?
- is 4th Mox Diamond needed?
- is Solitary Confinement needed?
- is Serra's Sanctum needed?
- is Wasteland needed?
- is Abeyance needed?
- what is your experience with Batterskull?
- have some of you tested Kor Haven/Maze of Ith?
- have some of you tested Mana Tithe?
In next 3 weeks I'm going to play in 4 local and 2 bigger tournaments so I will have chance to test much more than before.
No. This card is central to the strategy (Terminus).Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
In my opinion, yes. Resolving a Top is easier than a Scroll Rack and it makes it possible to Terminus during an opponent's turn. I'm thinking about adding a 3rd to my decklist, actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
Possibly not. This is the card I might cut for the 3rd Top.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
I'm not sure. It's super strong in the right context but unless you have the Tax/Rack engine going, it's only a destroyable Time Walk. I think a deck packing four of these with A. Finds, Skull of Orm and tricks like that might be feasible, but this would be another deck altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
No. Too conditional.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
I don't think so. I use Pithing Needle when needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
Cool card, but I don't have the slots for something like that. I'd play Orim's Chant over this anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
It's been good so far! The only downside is the mana cost. That's why I went from 2 copies to a single one.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
Since we don't have a way to fetch for these early on, it's rather weak I'd say. I'd rather kill the attacking creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
I think this card is too conditional. I didn't test it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
Been working on this for a while now, and have done 2 local tourneys and a big 1.5 with probably 40+ players. List I ran was mono-white. I've gone 2-2 every time sadly (EDIT: Big 1.5 was 2-2-1). Been a couple weeks since I last played it so I'll just list experiences with a few decks and individual cards.
List I ran was:
1xKarakas
17x Plains
3xPath to Exile
4xSwords to Plowshare
4xOrim's Chant
3xArgivian Find
3xEnlightened Tutor
3xIsochron Scepter
1xGoblin Charbelcher
1xIvory Tower
1xPithing Needle
3xScroll Rack
2xZuran Orb
2xHumility
1xMoat
2xAura of Silence
3xRuned Halo
4xLand Tax
2xElspeth
SB:
1xKarmic Justice
2xAura of Silence
2xRelic of Progenitus
1xTormod's Crypt
4xMana Tithe
2xSilence
1xGrafdigger's Cage
1xArgivian Find
Show & Tell: Played against 3 of these, amazingly ran into 3 different versions. Sneak/Show, Show/Omniscience, Show/HiveMind. I won once having Orim's chant on a stick + 3 more chant effects in hand, but other than that got smoked. Against Hive and Omniscience both first games they Show & Tell'd and I'm like "Cool I have Karakas/Humility.....oh...thats a Hive Mind/Omniscience... :( "
Played Canadian Thresh 3 times. Went 2-0 against one of them, went 1-2 against other 2. Runed Halo's were pretty useful here, and often ate a pierce for something else. This matchup really made me want a 4th Argivian Find. Really nice against this. Also the high mana curve really hurt here. I hated drawing Elspeths in my hands, Aura of Silence was terrible of course, as was Pithing Needle. Really wanted a CoP green or something in board.
NIC Fit: Played against 3 of these and went 2-1 each time. Not a bad matchup at all. Liliana doesn't do much at all against this, and Runed Halo makes her pretty much worthless. I Pithing Needled Deeds and brought Karmic Justice from board. Humilty + Moats pretty easy to get against it and Vet Explorer can help too. Most importantly Chant/Stick is auto win.
Elves: 2-0 Humilty/Moated and Chant/Stick. Stalled with swords and stuff
TES 1-2 Felt I could have pulled this off but had to mull to 5 two times, just some tough luck drawing lots of lands or silence effects with no lands :( Had one Leyline of Sanctity main at the time I played against this and tutored for it game 1.
Maverick: Played against it twice. 2-1 each time. Chant/Stick was auto win as was Humility Moat.
Lands: Won 2-0. Land Tax was always active, Belchered fairly early both games
U/W Miracle: 1-1-1 Pretty fun match, close games. He won game two from a sideboard Purify o_o and a followup Entreat the Angels. He did have Serenities but never got them active because of Aura of Silences (which were very nice this matchup) Cant remember how I won game 1, pretty sure I double orim's chanted into a Belcher or Isochron + Orim's.
Can't remember other games.
Individual card thoughts:
1. I did not like Elspeth. I got her ult off once vs NIC Fit once and still lost. Charbelcher was the superior win condition by far. Her mana cost really makes things difficult.
2. Runed Halos were mixed bags. Most games they were mediocre and almost always named a creature in play. As I mentioned, pretty nice against Canadian Thresh.
3. I always wanted Argivian Finds.
4. Ivory Tower is cool, but worthless. While I got it active a couple games, its really situational.
5. Belcher was fantastic, never had any issues running just 1 and it never let me down.
6. Scepter/Chant got me many stupid wins and scepter is good at baiting counters. However it is clunkier than I would like.
7. Not having saclands/sol lands wasn't an issue. I almost always chose to draw first which was enough to be one land behind. Show & Tell was the exception, not that it helped.Canadian Thresh had no trouble with this of course.
8. No Wrath effects for me. I had 1 Wrath in earlier and 4 mana was too much most of the time. Terminus I dislike more because it relies on Scroll Rack, otherwise its even worse than the Wrath.
9. Aura of Silence: I really did like having these against some matchups, but doesn't deserve a maindeck slot. Too dead against a lot of stuff.
Currently working on RBW Parfait with Duress & Burning Wish mb, with Gemstone Mine, Undiscovered Paradise, and Mox Diamonds for mana fixers. I like it a lot so far and if I can nail it down a bit more & if there's interest I'll post it.
Someone was playing this deck at SCG Portland yesterday. I didn't see much of what was going on, aside from the last few minutes of a match that went to time. The parfait player then whiffed with Charbelcher, getting his opponent to 1 life before the Turn 5 made it a draw.
Regardless, pretty rad to see this deck at a big event. I'm curious to hear how it did.
Hi Guys, I haven't seen any post here during last week. No new experience, tips or decklist updates?
There are no Legacy tournaments in Quebec City I can play in until October. I might play on Tuesdays though. I'll let you know if I have anything new to share.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
Hey Raphael. Today, I was bored and was playtesting against Goblins. We played for 4 games and went 2-2. Not sure what I'm doing wrong by I would expect it will be a blowout in favour of Parfait.
Krenko was just a beating.
Granted, I wasn't running Cursed Totem (I am running Humility instead). Any advice on outside of the "Plow the Lackey" sermon?
Also, I was checking your list. What's with the changes and what are you trying to improve in? (-1 Land Tax, Tithe and the rest).
Thanks man. I wish I can help right now with the deck's development (as I was intending to) but I've been busy.
I haven't played vs Goblins in a while, but I'd say having 4 wrath effects would help a lot. What killed you exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
The deck needs a way to Tax more efficiently. Land Tax is best played when your opponent already has more lands than you. However, there are many many ways to make the land count even (opponent wastelands his own land, Quirion Ranger, etc.). An opponent won't restrict himself if Land Tax isn't in play. Tithe allows to get a land and to shuffle in any circumstances. It's less powerful than Land Tax but more reliable.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Luminarch Ascension is there to help winning vs control pre-board.
The Cursed Totem came in to help vs Maverick, which is a very popular deck around here.
I played yesterday in small local tournament against some not very common decks:
1st round DeadGuy Stoneblade 1-2, but it should be 1-1 (game1 scepter-chant, game2 I had bad cards and he was to fast, game3 first turn scepter-chant followed by disenchant...and than my misplay in last added turn!),
2nd round Infect 1-2 (game1 he was to fast, I think kill turn 2 or 3. game2 first turn swords, 3rd turn moat and than wasteland to nexus. killed by luminarch. game3 first turn scepter-chant followed by Viridian Corrupter. next turn Sensei, than topdeck 2x Swords but always had instant protection...)
3rd round MonoBlack 2-0 (easy game. first game moat, than scepter/chant. second game first turn scepter/swords)
In general I can say, that game one is very often win for me (scepter-chant lock), but 2nd game: serenity/disenchat/krosan grip, ... Scepter/Chant is usually destroyd and it slows me down a lot.
I have tested Tithe last week and played it yesterday in local tournament. I fully aggre with K-Run, it is very good for taxing and especially shuffle effect is great under sensei/rack.
Sensei is good too, but you need any land tax/shuffle effect to make it better.
As K-Run wrote above, with Land is sometimes hard to tax, so what I see as an issue is lack of shuffling effect in my deck...
My experience with Ghostly prison is that it is not very good by itself as 1-2 creatures can still attack (those with equip, ...). I have discussed with one my friend and we have agreed my new test change should be 2-3x Armagedon main. I have tested today a bit and it seems to be very very good. armagedon/prison/luminarch was great. or maybe catalcysm?
My question to all of you:
What is you experience with Oblivion Ring. I still play it due to the flexibility, but it is more expensive than Swords or Needle and is not doing much more. I really hate her hide ability, as after disenchant/or board reset (serenity, ...) it is only great shield for opponents card! Is it really needed 1-2x or it is not needed anymore? Do we have better choice for it? I have searched Parfait's builds and I see tendency in last 2months to reduce/cut her amount in decklists...
Oblivion Ring is just more flexible than other disenchant effects (deals with creatures and Planeswalkers) and is a tutorable anti-creature. You can always side it out game 2 for more dedicated removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
Armaggeddon? I guess it makes the deck more Prison-esque. It's a bit situational, as you don't want creatures on board unless you have Ghostly Prison out.
I run both Ghostly Prison and Armageddon in my current build. I think it suffers from Solitary Confinement syndrome in this deck as they are awesome but only under certain circumstances. Also, the problem with going prison is that the deck just doesn't have enough win conditions to steal certain wins.
I think the deck right now is at the verge of being "established". With Raphael constantly working on it, along with ideas from TaxMan and Pelikanudo and insights from IBA. Personally, I think the deck needs the right mix of cheap disruption and late game bombs while operating under a low number of lands.
Also, proper play is needed for the deck. I find that most of the games I lose, I try to get Tax/Rack going without real means to control the board. I think the deck should play like Quinn where you're going to try to control the board early on and use the Tax/Rack engine late game when you're down on cards.
This theory is evident with Raphael's (K-Run) reduction of Land Taxes in the main.
what about adding 1-2x fetch lands for better shuffle effects. i hope it makes rack/sensei much better. On saturday we have bigger tournament. I will test 2x fetch land (2 wastelands removed) and 2x armageddon (if i get them untill saturday).
Also maybe I will put 4th Scroll Rack, but than I have to remove last Oblivion Ring - this i'm really not sure...
my next question is, most of parfait decklists play (without armageddon) 2x ghostly prison? we run only 1x humility and 1x moat and it is usually enough as we have 4x enl.tutor, so why 2x ghostly prison? by itself it is not so great, you need another card for lock (maze of ith, kor haven, armageddon, story circle, ...)
Ghostly prison by itself is usually not enought to stop completely an opponent. However, when you add-up the ghostly prison effects, they can become very effectives. 4 mana becomes a lot to pay for attacking with only 1 creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
That's exactly why it's bad: you need many copies on board for it to matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by mordraid
I also have removed Ghostly Prison from my list. Although mine has a singleton Solitary Confinement.
I find that Solitary Confinement is only helpful when you have the Tax/Rack engine going backed up with Zuran Orb to make sure you always have less lands than your opponent.
@K-Run:
When you first conceived Parfait, what was the Vintage meta like? I think one of the problems I have is I'm trying to port old-lists into what we have now. Times have changed since 2000. While the engine is still relevant, I feel that half of the pieces of the deck isn't as relevant.
Don't get me wrong, I think the deck is almost there, but I needs something that we haven't really thought of.
I built it to win vs Sligh. Then I tweaked it to deal with other matchups. Mono-b was played a lot and Land Tax was just an incredible card vs it. Mono-u was also there, but at that time it had lots of trouble dealing with Sacred Mesa if it resolved. The Workshop decks were more aggro than prison. Green didn't have Naturalize at that time too. I also ran Blood Moon, as good fetchlands didn't exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Enchantments were way harder to deal with. Nowadays, good answers exist in most colors, making games 2 and 3 harder to win. You don't win by resolving your silver bullet as you used to. That's the challenge of today's Parfait: how can one win with silver bullets if they are not as lethal as before?
That's the rationale behind a card like Timely Reinforcement in my sideboard. It's not as powerful as Moat, but it is way harder to deal with, in a sense. Unless something changes drastically in Magic, I expect Parfait to evolve towards a permanent-light version.
I post my updated deck list for saturday's tournament (estimated metagame 1 : 2 : 2 control:combo:aggro). I did some changes (inspired by my & others old vintage parfaits) to make it more simple and consistent, I hope :smile:
significant changes from my last list:
removed: 2x Wasteland, 1x Mistveil Plains, 2nd Chrome Mox, 1x Luminarch Ascension, 2nd Oblivion Ring, 2nd Ghostly Prison
added: 1x Plateau, 1x Plains, 4th Mox Diamond, 3rd Tithe, 2nd Elspeth, Knight-Errant, 2x Armageddon, 1x Goblin Charbelcher, 1x Blood Moon
LEGACY PARFAIT v6.0
MANA BASE (16+5+3)
11x Plains
4x City of Traitors
1x Plateau
4x Mox Diamond (with Tithe I hope I can affrod to have 4x Mox)
1x Chrome Mox
3x Tithe (two were good, so three should be much better :wink: - I tested 2x fetch lands, but it was not good for Charbelcher and under City of traitors on board)
KILL (3)
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant (2nd added for Luminarch which was very good, but mostly after lock scepter or prison/armageddon lock. Elspeth is very strong before lock, so opponent must react... only issue is that she is not tutorable...)
1x Goblin Charbelcher (in previos version it was removed as I played lots of non-basic lands. now with armageddon I have removed Wastelands, 3x Tithe added too, so kill time was reduced. Usually it takes me 4-6 turns to kill before strong taxing. after taxing it is still 3-4 turns, but that's ok.
(as a fast kill I have tested Painter's Servant+Grindstone, it is excellent, but too fragile and 4 slots...)
ENGINE
3x Land Tax
3x Scroll Rack (still thinking about 4th scroll rack...)
1x Zuran Orb
LOCKS
2x Isochron Scepter
4x Orim's Chant
1x Humility
1x Moat
2x Armageddon (not too much tested, but hope it will be good, maybe +1x in future)
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Blood Moon (not yet tested, lot's of multicolor decks in legacy metagame. I hope my red mana sources are enough to cast it in first turns)
BOARD CONTROL
1x Oblivion Ring (thinking about to remove completely...)
1x Pithing Needle
3x Swords to Plowshares (not sure if 3 or 4)
2x Terminus (is good, but not in opening hand :rolleyes: still not 100% sure that it's better than Wrath of God. 4mana is no problem in 3rd turn, so not too big difference from terminus (as you almost never want to play terminus in turn 1or2) and no need to flip via Scroll Rack when on opening hand)
1x Powder Keg (maybe one more sword, but for now I will keep it like it is)
SEARCH
2x Noxious Revival
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Sensei's Divining Top
SIDEBOARD:
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Abolish
1x Aura of Silence
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Story Circle
1x Noxious Revival
Your experience, tips and comments are welcome... and I fully agree with (nameless one) - PROPER PLAY, I still do often mistakes in my play...
EDIT: sideboard added, main change -1x Ghostly Prison, +1x Blood Moon
Powder Keg is strictly inferior to Ratchet Bomb, right? I'm also not sold on Chant / Scepter. How did you like it?
yes, I'm thinking about Ratched Bomb. But Bomb for 1 will destroy my Land Tax too. I have to testQuote:
Originally Posted by Hisa
Scepter/Chant is excellent in first game. it locks 80% of the field. After sideboard it is quiet week, but I will keep scepter in my list...
to all: what do you think about red splash. I would like to test it next weeks... I think red should be the best color to add.
I would like to know your opinion to this cards in current legacy metagame:
Blood Moon
Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast
Ajani Vengeant
Gamble
Lightning Helix
Firestom
Pyroclasm
Goblin Trenches
Vexing Shusher
Reroute
Burning Wish
I'm not convinced about a red splash. Back in the days, Blood Moon was really strong but the advent of fetchlands made it much less lethal. In my opinion, the cards you list add nothing to the strategy because they don't solve any problem a mono-white version couldn't. I'm also concerned about the availability of red mana. You would need Mox Diamonds, Plateaus and Tithe to make it work.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
last tournament: 1-4
Match 1 Melforks
Game1 (1-0): tax/rack/orb engine on board, needle - Coralhelm and Moat on 6life, than Charbelcher
Game2 (1-1): early Vial, Coralhelm, turn 2 Chalice for 1, ...
Game3 (1-2): turn 1 Vial, turn 2 Chalice for 1, later I reset board with Wrath of God, but he killed me with Mutavaults
Match 2 Affinita
Game1 (0-1): he was to fast, I put Moat but he had Vault Skirge + Cranial Plating...
Game2 (0-2): I put Elspeth and Charbelcher, he had Tezzeret and few creaturs. Charbecher to Tezzert for 0! (topdeck land) and Elspeth tokens were blocked. Killed by Tezzeret ultimate, however he had in play Cranial Plating too
Match 3 Aggro Elves
Game1 (1-0): scepter chant lock than Charbelcher
Game2 (2-0): moat and charbelcher
Match 4 Combo Elves
Game1 (0-1): I have tutored for Humility, so he had to start the combo with big risk as he knew that next turn Humility is almost over for him...
Game2 (0-2): I had Orim's Chant and Moat in hand. his quirion sworded, next quirion stopped with needle. his natural order for Progenitus, I put Moat but he had Krosan Grip...
Match 5 MUD
Game1 (0-1): early Chalice for 1, than Lodestone Golems, ...
Game2 (0-2): I sworded Welder, he put Chalice for 1 again, I reset game with Terminus, put Moat and stabilized on 5 life. than Chalice for 2. With Sensei I put on top of library Humility and Abolish.... But he put Kuldotha Forgemaster, sacrificied 3 artifacts for Steel Hellkite and put Lightning Greaves. game over
Lessons learned:
- Chalice of the Void for 1 is really horrible!
- you can NEVER rely on Goblin Charbelcher, even if you need only one damage :mad:
- I usually need only one more turn to stabilize the board
- what this deck is really missing is lifegain!!! :rolleyes:
- 3x tithe is too much, sometimes I had no land in opening hand
- as K-Run mentioned above, Blood Moon is not as good as it used to be...
- Armageddon is not very effective...
- One Ghostly prison on board is almost dead card...
- Abolish is very good sideboard card
- Terminus in opening hand is really terrible
Deck modifications: (I have removed all situational cards for instant answers)
-1x Tithe +1x Plateau
-1x Plains +1x Mountain
-1x Ghostly Prison +1x Path to Exile (maybe Swords/Terminus or I will test Firestorm too)
-1x Blood Moon +1x Ajani Vengeant (can save/gain some lifepoints and stop one attacker)
-2x Armageddon +2x Lightning Helix (lifegain, I used to play it in my specter/chant extended deck in 2006 and it was excellent)
red mana sources: 4x mox diamond, 2x plateau, 1x mountain, 2x tithe, 3x land tax. after testing it seems enough. only added 1x plateau and mountain, but this will help Charbelcher too.
I have distilled your list down to every card capable of actually killing a creature. It is six and a half cards (counting Keg as a half.)Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
It is very easy in a deck like this to focus too hard on trying to do cute things and trying to shore up every conceivable matchup, so that you lose sight of the actual reason to play the deck, which should be to beat up on creatures. You are not beating up creatures very effectively right now. I mean you lost to Affinity and Merfolk.
Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals. Land Tax/Rack doesn't matter for shit if you're just drawing into cutesy crap while failing to control the board.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
@Taxman:
In my testing, running Timely Reinforcements was very good vs any creature-based deck. I encourage you to try it. It buys you time.
You can see the limits of Moat. A board sweeper is usually much better.
I run Banishing Stroke vs Chalice and Counterbalance. Abolish is good as well. Powder Keg is an option too.
Question to everyone:
If you checked the Return to Ravnica spoiler, you may have spotted the following card:
Rest in Peace 1w
Enchantment Rare
When Rest in Peace enters the battlefield, exile all cards from all graveyards.
If a card or token would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.
What about running this over Tormod's Crypt/Grafdigger's Cage and a single Helm of Obedience for a pseudo-instant kill? Obviously, the helm is worst than Charbelcher when used alone, but the kill seems more consistent and way faster. Anyway, this is only an idea I had when checking the spoiler...
I will test Timely Reinforcements tomorrow in local tournament.
New potential card: 1x Horizontal Conopy
I have tested this card today and it seems to me very good.
White mana in early game, draw a card in late game and when land tax in play you can reduce your lands... what do you think?
I like Rest in Peace, just the fact that not only it provides utility, it also shrinks a lot of the format's beaters and can provide another win condition (along with Helm of Obedience)
There's another card that caught my eye:
Soul Tithe :1::w:
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant non land permanent
At the beginning of the upkeep of that enchanted permanent's controller, that player sacrifices it unless he or she pays X where X is its converted mana cost.
It might sound janky but it helps Land Tax active, deals with permanents when your opponent is down, can be ETutored for, can be recurred by Argivian Find, and can deal with all non-land permanent.
It can be fit in more prison-based Parfait.
I have modified my decklist after last tournament and your comments and I finished today on 2nd place. I put more creature kills and removed conditional cards, now I have 10-11 creature kills: 4x Swords, 2x Terminus, 1x Wrath of God, 1x Oblivion Ring, 2x Lightning Helix, 1x Ajani Vengeant. I put one Moat and Humility into Sideboard.
Match1 (Elves):
game1 (1-0): early Humility, than Elspeth, next turn Terminus, than Moat...
game2 (2-0): 1st turn Canonist got Krosan Grip. Natural Order stopped by Humility, than Wrath of God and Elspeth.
Match2 (Belcher)
game1 (0-1): I stopped 2storms in early turns with Orim's chants, after several turns he got mana for Charbelcher + LED...
game2 (1-1): massive sideboard (in: 4x Leyline, 2x Canonist, 1x Needle, 1x Keg, 1x Moat, 1x Wrath og God, 1x Abolish, 1x Aura of Silence). first turn Canonist, second E.Tutor for needle. Canonist damage race stopped by Tinder Wall. Than I put Leyline and Elpseth. His Burning Wish for Shattering Spree. He destroeyd Canonist and Needle and killed Elspeth with Charbelcher. He stopped on 2 lifes. I killed him with Lightning Helix.
game3 (2-1): first turn storm for 6goblins. I put Needle and than Moat in turn3. Than Scepter with imprinted Lightning Helix.
Match 3 (Standstill Counter-Top)
game1: He put 1st turn Top, I have taxed several times. maybe 10 turn I draw only dead cards. Than he put 6 4/4 angels. One killed with Swords, but my 2x terminus and wrath of god were canceled
game2: his top stopped with needle. than long time nothing. I tried to put Elspeth and Charbelcher, but both were canceled. Hi put Jace, in my turn I put Scepter with Helix but it got Needle next turn. Hi Disenchanted my Needle, than he put Counterbalance and killed me with Jace.
Is there any chance to beat Counter-Top? I think this is one of the worst Matchups.
I can say that Lightning Helix was very good. I didn't have chance to test Ajani or Timely Reinforcements in play yet. Horizon Conopy was as well ok.
Hi all
The deck now beats mainly:
- Merfolk
- Miracle
- Maverick
- Sneak Show
- Still in testing phase vs canadian, due to increased of non b. lands and useless of l. tax this match up is still tough, althouth with the pyroblasts effects can be winnable if the bombs come in.
About REB Effects In general
The REB effects is gold in Blue match ups and for the rest it is not, but the deck plays so ma ny useless cards for so many match ups that I think we can fit in here as ti serves to prevent threats from being countered mainly, so REB effects are for me and n the current meta keys in a deck like this. abeyance is too slow in that role and orims is card disadvantage, althotuh, orims serves to other roles,
therefore having in mind the meta and REB effects they're not that bad and for the rest of Match ups we simply will find the appropiate Key card.
Thats mainly the argument to play or not REB effects, I can say that if you play them you need them 6 or greater to be effective, as in conjuntion with Auras will make the bc.balance match ups incredible winnable.
Archetypes on which REB is good (merfolks, canadian, seneak, reaniamator, TES, ANT, etc. and definately anything playing blue)
that was my main goal.
Some tips:
One of the Tips:
Aura of silence in 3 number is great all the time, thinking on 4 of.
With O. ring is never useless vs planeswalker or legendary non land card. important point.
It is good vs:
- Sneak Attack , omniscience and counterbalance.
- Annoying artifacts, nedle,
- Combo - A.Nauseam (TES and DDFT) - because of LEDs and petals
- Avoids cards like E.Explosives and Pernicius - preventive role.
I finally included c. moxen because:
- the number of useless cards, althouth keys in some mutch ups is big so c.moxen is gold in here.
- we need acceleration but also mana colored in first turns - for mainly auras and b.whishes, so I changed from 2 city o. traitors to 2 c.moxen.
The idea around match ups like maverick is:
- play numility ASAP and next Moat OR story circle nedle to quasaly is good also
- They can land gaddog teeg. - For gaddog teeg we have - Karakas and burning -> perish
- the match up at least in first game is sealed in a very easy way so we don't need cards like swords or terminus just accelerartion to find the keys and of course finding them same is applicable to merfolk, canadian, goblins and agro in general.
Some important point:
Beacuse of the raise of the Abrupt Dacay card, I know this will take out c.balance from the meta, (not miracle) now it will have nonsense playing c.balance if it can be destroyed somehow... you all boys need to agree with me.
So the list will need to change again, but I'm very happy with the list as it is withouth:
- Aprupt Decay and
- Rest in Peace.
Other point to discuss - Rest in Peace.
This card is great, but makes the deck not using cards like replenish (broken card) or argivian or noxius revival (other IMHO Not The Way builds), so we need to think about this:
It incorporate the Helm O Obedience Combo -here i'd like to ask is this combo stopped by progenitus or emrakul or gaeas blessing or likes?
I think from side can be ok, but the base for me is ok with elspeth and reito lantern and grfdiggers.
Some conclusions to questions done about the forum
- 4 moxen diamond is for me at least a must.
- abeyance is in deed not needed, as much as I'd like, maybe in mono W builds its needed.
- Sincerely, I don't understand why you play m. tithe and EVEN not 4 Land Tax, that is an error.
- Solitary confinement not needed its also too dependant on the engine.
- I'm thinking in adding also the 4th s.rack, it is key and you want to land it ASAP, but the idea is that the 4th is not needed because of the 4 e.tutor. 3 I think is the correct number but I'm not sure.
Regaridng to Serras santum , I first played 1 next 2 and next I take out b.moon, IMHO I'm liking more and more s. santum, it can provides lot of mana and if it at its worts in can be used once to get a large amount of mana if played well.
- Yes, to play specifically this deck you need to play it not properly -perfectly, there are lot of odds and puzzle with this, thats why I/you like it. But it can win and make top 8, that's my main goal.
Some quiestions apart from above:
- I need suggestion about the proper manabase - 9 red sources, I'm not sure if consider s. santum as a land, it gives no mana in 1 turn Please Help!!
Here you'll see the encarnation of my V.5 Parfait that can win and will win:
// Lands
2 [IA] Mountain (1)
8 [7E] Plains (4)
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
2 Plateau
2 Karakas
2 Arid Mesa
// Spells
1 [LG] Moat
3 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [AL] Reito Lantern
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [TE] Humility
4 [4E] Land Tax
3 [TE] Scroll Rack
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
1 [9E] Story Circle
3 [10E] Aura of Silence
4 [V10] Mox Diamond
3 [JGC] Orim's Chant
1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage (Edit: Next Replacement likely Rest In Peace)
1 [CMD] Oblivion Ring
3 [IA] Pyroblast
3 [IA] R.E.B.
2 Chrome Mox
2 Elspeth Knigh E. (Edit: Next Replacement likely +1 Helm -1 Elspeth Not Sure)
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 3 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [MOR] Idyllic Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Ritual of Restoration
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 2 Swords to plshares
SB: 1 [ISD] Nevermore
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
A note recently deiscovered:
If you play 6 REB effects and Rest In Peace in main, you will be able to win Canadian much easier than with grafidiggers, so I likely include at least in side and considering to replace grafdiggers... Seriously thinking in Helm combo.
Acclaration It makes Tarmo and Nimble 0/1 and 1/1 respectively and for delver you have REB effects, apart from bombs.
Question:
If you destroy Rest In Peace with Aura: Which one is retired and wich one in gy?
Exactly what i thought when i first saw the card spoiled. It's as good as any graveyard hoser there is and you can pull out the combo out of nowhere with just 2 slots in the maindeck. Surely worth it. Two combo cards in legacy are the standard for reliability. The fact that both pieces can be tutored via enlightened tutor is a really good thing. It's also easier to pull since you can stay mono-white. If you decide to go all in with the combo you can even put some orim's chant or silence to protect it.Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Run
I disagree. Many u/w lists only run Counterbalance in the sideboard. I don't think Counterbalance will disappear at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
No. This is a replacement ability, so those cards never touch the graveyard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
We're not playing Mana Tithe, we're playing Tithe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Both are exiled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Related To: 1.:Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Run
it is a fact that c.b. will be less played, playing it on side or not it does not worth it.
Scenario Before Abrupt Decay:
An oponnent has c.b active and you are forced to play around c.b. looking at which cost can be played, this the only resignation to a resolved c.b. IF you do not have a way to destroy it.
Scenario After Abrupt Decay:
Now the oponnent simply can keep spells until he/she reaches the Abrupt decay, therefore c.b. will only stop playing things assuming that in some time it will be destroyed. I'm not counting that Abrupt Decay is in hand, I don't count this is a card that will be played in whatever deck that plays that mana as RUG in main.
I can see the rise of Canadian Black with this new gem...
I'm a TES player and as TES player I've fallen in love with this card.
Also I don't say miracles will extinct, I think they simply won't play c.b. main.
Apoint to have in mind is that it can be redirected, so, if the miracles player prevents this, it can play cunning->misdirection or like. but this is to think too much.
I hope to convice you.
Related To: 2.:
I referred to Tithe, I'm sorry, still don't understand.
3 Land Tax and 2 Tithe? Really?
I can consider this card IN ADDITION to Land Tax, I really considered it long time ago, this card takes you plateau for example. however I don't find it in my main, if i need L.Tax I simply tutor for it and play it, I have 6 REB effects so I don't mind really the counters if I really need it as a vital.
Any help related to mana base?
Let me know K-Run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
What I'm saying is that Counterbalance will still be used vs decks that do not play Abrupt Decay, i.e. Parfait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
So yes, we might see less Counterbalance, but no, it won't disappear completely, and we still have to prepare vs it.
I'm trying to make the deck less Land Tax-dependent for getting mana and shuffling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
I can confirm that Tithe is very good card. You can shuffle your library after scroll rack/sensei OR simply search for land when Land tax is inactive, it finds Plateau. I play against lots of aggro/combo decks running with minimum lands so Tax is often deactivated.Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Run
And I really like to have 1x mox diamond, 1x land and 1x tithe in hand. When opponents starts new game, he put land, so I can put mox and search with tithe for 2 lands and one of them drop and use for 1mana instants (tutor, swords, ...) and turn 2 I have 3mana! With land tax you are one turn behind because when you put first land and your opponents stays one land you cannot tax...
I have removed 1x Land Tax and 1x Plains for 2x Tithe, that's better for charbelcher too.
I brought my list to a tourney last weekend. I went 2-1-1, beating Elves Combo and Dredge, losing to Goblins and tying to Affinity. I thought it was a good meta call since it was one of the $4 tournaments. I ended up winning the Izzet/Golgari Duel Deck.
I'll post more later when I get home.
I was in small tournament too. This time not very good result (metagame has changed from aggro/combo to control/combo), but I did a lot of testing...
My observations:
- deck is always beating Elves,
- Belcher or Storm shouldn't be an issue too,
- I have problems with Infect - it is often too fast (without Humility or Moat in play),
- UW or UB controls are very very difficult to beat at this moment for me,
Decklist changes/news:
- I have removed Horizon Canopy
- I deffinitely go with Red splash (Lightning Helix main, Pyroblasts in side)
- I removed Ajani (slow and mana intensive) for 3rd Lightning Helix. Helix is really great, lifegain was what I was missing. Under Scepter it is another kill condition. It allows me to cut Goblin Charbelcher. With non-basic lands and non-active Land Tax it was quite slow - time to kill with Scepter/Helix and Charbelcher is simillar.
- I have to agree with K-Run that Wasteland is not needed, we have Needles
- I'm testing one fetch land (Arid Mesa).
- for Charbelcher slot I added 1x Buried Ruin (not yet tested). I had feeling that I should add one more land as I run 4 Mox Diamonds.
Questions to All:
- this question is here again. Swords OR Path to Exile? When I play against control decks I would prefer rather Path over Swords as the lifegain is horrible, but in general Swords seems to be better. What do you think?
- What do you thing about 1-3 fetchlands?
- Do you have experience with Buried Ruin?
- As I use red splash, I'm going to test 1x Goblin Trenches for 1x Zuran Orb. For lifegain I have Helix and I think tokens are good against control decks or to block aggro creatures (Timely Reinforcement is better for lifegain/tokens but I use Trenches primary for sac-lands). I think Trencher is alltogether more powerfull card than Zuran Orb, but mana intenstive. Do you have experience with Trenches or what is you opinion for this switch?
- what do you think about Mikokoro, Center of the Sea?
@K-Run:
I checked lots of Legacy Parfait decklists created in last months. Average from 15 usefull decklists:
Total Mana sources: 22.7
Lands: 18
Artefact mana: 4.7 (usually 4x Mox Diamond + some use addional Chrome Moxes)
- You use 21 lands + 4x Mox Diamond + 1x Borderpost + 2x Tithe + 3x Land Tax. Is it not too much?? (I added one more, so now I run 19 lands (with one fetchland) + 4x Mox Diamond + 2x Tithe + 3x Land Tax).
- Why do you still prefer Crystal Vein over City of Traitors?
- Why do you don't like Isochron Scepter?
Here it is as promised:Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
First the list:
2x Batterskull
4x Extraplanar Lens
2x Pithing Needle
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Scroll Rack
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Tangle Wire
2x Humility
4x Land Tax
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Path to Exile
3x Terminus
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4x Crystal Vein
3x Ghost Quarter
13x Snow-Covered Plains
I did not bring any sideboard to this event. Why? Because I wanted to see how the deck works in general. I am not expecting to win really.
Anyways, the games:
Match 1: Affinity
Game 1 - I am on the play. I open with 3 lands along with Land Tax, E Tutor and Path to Exile. I don't recall the last card. He mulls to five. He wasn't really explosive in the beginning. I Path'd his first creature (he only played one in his first turn). I Ghost Quartered his artifact land. I then went to Tutor for Scroll Rack. I soon get Tax/Rack with only one land (because of Crystal Veins). He followed that up with Cranial Plating with enough artifact on the field but he didn't have enough mana to equip it. I took advantage of that and set up a Terminus to sweep his board. He then tries to slow-beat me with Blinkmoth Nexus. I quickly find answers with two Pithing Needles naming the Nexus and Cranial Plating. I then Tutored for Batterskull and it started cleaning up from there.
Game 2 - Keep a 3 land hand with Land Tax and Scroll Rack. He opens with three artifacts on the field. On my first turn, I topdeck a Terminus with no land in play. I Path'd soemthing, setup a Terminus but he still has Galvanic Blast and Shrapnel Blast as an answer to my answer. Eventually time is called. I tried finding my answer but the rest of robots actually cleaned it up for him.
0-0-1 (1-1)
Match 2: Goblins
Game 1 - I'm on the draw, I keep a hand with 3 lands and a Path to Exile. I Path'd his first turn Goblin Lackey, then O-ring his turn 2 Goblin Piledriver (with the help of Crystal Veins). He then followed it up with turn 3 Goblin Warchief, turn 4 Warchief and Krenko, Mob Boss. He landed another Piledriver next turn and I am dead.
Game 2 - I got greedy and kept a one land hand, along with Path and E-Tutor. My opponent mulled to 6. I respond to his first turn AEther Vial with a Tutor for Needle (I soon named Vial on that Needle when it hit the field). His Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader got him the edge he needed while I was waiting for that second land. I sure got greedy with that.
0-1-1 (1-3)
Match 3 - LEDless Dredge
Game 1 - I am on the draw and keep a hand with two lands, two Path and a Scroll Rack. My opponent goes for the turn two Careful Study with already key cards in the graveyard from the first dredge. I Path both his Ichorids but he just kept hitting the nuts. He eventually Dread Returns a Griselbrand and shortly wins. when he dredged most of his library, I noticed that he wasn't packing Lion's Eye Diamond. This made me happy since he's technically not that faster.
Game 2 - I keep a three land hand with Land Tax and Relic ( XD). I turn one Relic. He plays a turn one Putrid Imp which meets a Path the following turn. He tries to bait my Relic which I actually bite. But I followed it up with Humility, then Elspeth, then just to have the quick win, Batterskull.
Game 3 - I keep a two land hand with E-Tutor and Needle. He mulls to give. He goes for a turn 2 Breakthrough to dredge half of his library. Fortunately for me, he only dredged one Narcomoeba. He Cabal Therapys for Relic but I don't have it (yet). I then E-Tutored for it. I Needled his Cephalid Coliseum. I bomb his graveyard, then topdecked Elspeth. She soon took over.
1-1-1 (3-4)
Match 4: Elves Combo
Game 1 - I am on the play. He combos and win by turn three.
Game 2 - I mull to five with two lands and SDTop. He had a quick start with mana elves but he didn't have Glimpse of Nature for the combo win. He managed to beat me to 10 by turn 4 but with the help of SDT, I miracle set-up a Terminus. I had Land Tax but he Krosan Grips it (now having more lands than me). I responded by Tutoring for another Land Tax. I soon set up Tax/Rack. Tangle Wire slowed him down, while Humility is keeping his elves in check, all with the help of Extraplanar Lens. Batterskull soon took over.
Game 3 - I keep a hand with three plains with SDTop. He tries for a turn 2 combo but he fizzles (I guess he got too greedy). Although he did have tons of Elves on the field. I miracled a Terminus with the help of SDTop. That was then followed by Elspeth and she soon cleaned up.
2-1-1 (5-5)
Surprisingly I made top 8. We didn't play it out and put it on store credit instead. I had enough store credit to get the Duel deck.
A couple of things I want to discuss:
Extraplanar Lens - this card is awesome. It enables me to hit my early land drops and play it to turns 3-4 to keep my land count in check. I know Zuran Orb does the same thing but Lens keeps it so that I am not behind mana. I get to play my 3-4cc bombs with ease.
SDT w/ Scroll Rack - Scroll Rack is good in the early game (or with the Land Tax engine) when you have a lot of cards in your hand. In the late game, SDT is better as it actually fixes what you draw.
Relic of Progenitus vs. Grafdigger's Cage - While they almost do the same role, Relic is actually useful against Canadian Thresh. While the Cage is good against Green Zun Zenith, a lot of cards the deck has can actually answer what the Zenith searches. I find it harder to answer Nimble Mongoosed or a 4/5 Tarmogoyf that has permission back up.
Tangle Wire - This card is awesome. It taps down whatever threats my opponent is playing. If my opponent doesn't, then it taps down their lands. Either way it slows them down while it doesn't really slow me down since the deck is a permanent-based board control. I just tap down my static ability artifacts. It also makes the opponent play more lands which helps Land Tax's cause.
Path to Exile - This card is shit. I thought it would be good as it will help enable Land Tax but it ended up helping my opponents (that are running basic lands). Will definitely switch to Swords to Plowshares
Elspeth - This slot used to be Balancing Act but Balancing Act didn't really do what I wanted it to do. I was hoping that if my opponents have more permanents than me, he's screwed and if I have more, I just end up sacrificing my lands. My opponent would just sacrifice his non-lands permanents to keep Land Tax at bay while making me discard my hand since he's already played most of his cards, having less cards in hand than me. I was hoping the dream play would be: My opponent has less permanents than me but has a bigger hand, so I sacrifice my lands to get Land Tax going while making him discard his hand. I will still consider Balancing Act though against the control and combo matchup.
Also, I needed Elspeth as additional win condition, which I didn't regret for that tournament.
Ghost Quarter - My friend suggested this to me last minute. It's still debatable. I can use it to destroy my opponent's utility land (its not for mana denial), destroy my Plains to get Land Tax going or even just a shuffle effect doing for SDT and Scroll Rack. I might switch them for a Fetchlands (Flooded Strand) but I am not sure yet. Testing is definitely on the way.
As for my new list, its almost the same as above with the inclusion of RIP/Helm combo.
4x Extraplanar Lens
2x Helm of Obedience
2x Pithing Needle
4x Scroll Rack
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Tangle Wire
2x Humility
4x Land Tax
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Rest in Peace
4x Terminus
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4x Crystal Vein
3x Ghost Quarter
13x Snow-Covered Plains
A couple of things that I've tried and want to try:
Balancing Act - I already mentioned it above.
Cataclysm - I feel that we can abuse this card. Resolve it, sacrifice everything but a Scroll Rack, Land Tax and a land. Profit? I feel that this is more for spell-base versions of the deck (like what K-Run mentioned a couple posts back).
Lotus Vale - You have to sacrifice lands to play this. My friend suggested this to me. I told him that you just get 3 for 1-ed if your opponent Wastelands it, then he told me that I already run Pithing Needle in the main. I might try it in place of Ghost Quarter or Crystal Veins.
RIP/Helm vs. PainterStone - I like RIP/Helm better since it only replaces pieces that does almost the same thing from my list (Relic and Batterskull). Also, not being a creature makes it less vulnerable.
- Using my proposed list above: If you're primary win condition doesn't involve life, then StP is better than Path. Also, see above.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxMan
- I wouldn't mind trying Fetchlands. Right now, my "fetchland" is Ghost Quarter.
- I was thinking of Buried Ruin but with the new win-combo, I think Buried Ruin won't be needed. That is also the reason why I am not running Agrivian Find/Noxious Revival
- No comment on the red splash. Definitely needs to be tested.
- I don't like Mikokoro, Center of the Sea. The deck is supposed to be grinding the opponent down. Mikokoro is counterproductive to this cause.