UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

This is awesome! I love all the interest and discussion so far, I've gotten a lot of ideas to refine through testing. I agree, I think Karakas is now worth it because it can deal with Teeg, Thalia and Clique (sort of). This deck has a goal of hitting pretty much exactly five lands, so I don't want to play more, but I think having Seat of the Synod is actually necessary (I've tutored for it with E tutor and won games with it there, and been frustrated when I couldn't tutor for a land).

Here's my current list:

// Lands
8 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [LG] Karakas

// Spells
2 [AL] Helm of Obedience
2 [US] Energy Field
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [RTR] Rest in Peace
2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [US] Back to Basics
1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
1 [RTR] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Energy Field
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [COM] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension


Another idea I had was to simply SB into Miracles! So same MD with the sb of:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 1 [FNM] Counterspell
SB: 1 [LG] Moat
SB: 2 [AVR] Entreat the Angels


It's surprisingly portable, as the combo is very compact and doesn't require too many pieces of it due to E-tutor.

Nice list, akatsuki, it's very close to what I've been testing. One question: why did you cut the Leylines of Sanctity? They have been pretty good for me in testing, having utility against both discard (which seems pretty bad for us) as well as Ritual combo. I also prefer Humility in the main but I can see moving it to the board depending on your expected field.

Also:

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Originally Posted by akatsuki

SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

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Currently I am playing 1x Jace main as an alternate win condition, to blow up opposing Jaces, and so on. An additional Jace probably wouldn't be the worst, but I can't see ever wanting 3x in the post board. What are you using these 3x Jace for?

Maybe it's just me, but I think this deck should be focusing a little more on the combo, and little less on filler. I'm also seeing a lack of the best anti-aggro tool available to this deck; Ensnaring Bridge.

Leyline of the Void doubles the amount of pieces for half the combo. It also costs no mana if its in the opener, reducing the cost of the combo significantly. At 4cc, it dodges Abrupt Decay, and it cannot be discarded by Cabal Therapy or countered by Force of Will (since it comes into play before the game starts). Enlightened Tutors can then be focused on finding Helm of Obedience, or whatever toolbox target is needed. I'd also be running 4 RIP and 4 Helm.

Crystal Vein seems like a pretty good land to run. Unlike City of Traitors, you don't need to sacrifice it until you actually need the extra colorless mana. Traitors isn't benefiting you when your casting the majority of your spells anyway, since only a few require more than single colorless.

Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond could also be really good. This combo is pretty expensive, compared to the other alternatives in the format. With multiple Counterbalances, RIP's, Energy Fields, Leylines, etc being redundant, Chrome seems like a good choice. On the other hand, Diamond provides all colors, which is great for mana fixing. The card disadvantage point seems moot; you're already running Enlightened Tutor, and Ensnaring Bridge actually benefits from it. If going the Diamond path, a singleton Crucible could be good.

With 4 E Tutor, the deck should only need 1 Detention Sphere to tutor for, to deal with whatever is causing a problem for your combo (like Teeg or Needle). This deck is better off using spells like Ensnaring Bridge to stop aggro from attacking; slow spot removal and mass removal just seems kinda silly, when Miracles is just alot better at that gameplan. This deck only needs to shut down aggro long enough to assemble the combo and win.

Just my 2 cents.

EDIT:

tldr: why dilute the deck to try and play a better control game, rather than making the combo more consistent and resilient? Miracles is better at the control game... so why not just win, instead of durdling around?

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Maybe it's just me, but I think this deck should be focusing a little more on the combo, and little less on filler.

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I don't know if I'd call the non-lock pieces "filler"--this is definitely a control deck with a combo finish. Frankly I would not want to be including 4x uncastable black enchantments in a UW shell that already has a slightly low blue count at ~20 cards. I personally would rather not reduce the amount of control elements in a deck that is going to be inherently slow no matter what. Ultimately you have to win on the back of a 4-mana artifact, a Jace, or a Luminarch Ascension--so I'd rather have a sturdy control shell to support this win than increase my number of lock pieces which don't win the game per se.

What you're describing simply sounds like a different, more combo-oriented deck--but I really think that Helm of Obedience lends itself more to a slower control angle than a faster combo approach.

I've tried the all-in combo version, and I don't feel like it packs significant enough disruption to make it a better choice than other combo decks like Show and Tell. You can feel free to keep experimenting though. :)

The 3 Jace are for siding into a deck with more win-conditions basically. (Surgical Extraction decks, decks with a limited number of creatures that Jace just shuts down). The 3 Jace have been great, I would definitely keep them in.

I didn't test Leyline of Sanctity that much, I just felt like discard wasn't THAT terrible for us since our combo consists of permanents, which can just be played. Plus we have E-tutor. I guess I just felt as though I ran out of room, but perhaps it can be justified. The other issue I have is that it costs 4, and does very little if it's not in your opening hand. But to ensure it's in the opening hand, you need to play more copies, which is hard to fit in the sb for something that doesn't necessarily help that much.

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Originally Posted by akatsuki

This is awesome! I love all the interest and discussion so far, I've gotten a lot of ideas to refine through testing. I agree, I think Karakas is now worth it because it can deal with Teeg, Thalia and Clique (sort of). This deck has a goal of hitting pretty much exactly five lands, so I don't want to play more, but I think having Seat of the Synod is actually necessary (I've tutored for it with E tutor and won games with it there, and been frustrated when I couldn't tutor for a land).

Here's my current list:

// Lands
8 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [LG] Karakas

// Spells
2 [AL] Helm of Obedience
2 [US] Energy Field
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [RTR] Rest in Peace
2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [US] Back to Basics
1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
1 [RTR] Pithing Needle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Energy Field
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [COM] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension


Another idea I had was to simply SB into Miracles! So same MD with the sb of:

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 1 [FNM] Counterspell
SB: 1 [LG] Moat
SB: 2 [AVR] Entreat the Angels


It's surprisingly portable, as the combo is very compact and doesn't require too many pieces of it due to E-tutor.

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This list looks incredibly solid. ReinVos was describing the problem of CB decks as dealing with too many threats, but Energy Field quite nicely deals with a losing board position. My suggestion, though, would be to go -1 Porphyr Nodes and +1 Energy Field, since Field is a significantly better vs. a losing board position than Nodes. Plus, if you have 2 Energy Fields in hand, then they have to deal with one,
then somehow deal with the second! (Plus that can free up a SB slot.)

I think the 2nd Detention Sphere should be cut, perhaps for a Threads of Disloyalty, Story Circle, Humility or possibly even Land Tax. Though I understand wanting enough 3cc's for CB.

I do think that the 2nd Detention Sphere and the Porphyr Nodes are the only weak cards in the deck, the rest is like a work of art as it all has so much synergy so well together. I'd also recommend a SB Nevermore.

I'm thinking that having the choice between Energy Field and Web of Inertia seems like a highly interesting option, allowing you to make a metagame choice. Web also allows for immense synergy with RiP.

Also suspecting that manabases are going to have a base of:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Blue or White Fetchland
3 Plains
2 Island

With 7-9 slots left over for mana.

I'm also highly interested in what ETutor packages people are looking at using. I think that the Essential Tutor targets are (beyond the combo):

1 Pithing Needle
1 Detention Sphere
2 Web of Inertia/Energy Field
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Humility

There's definitely a strong deck here. I'm just not sure if it's right for the current time.

Leyline of the Void, aside from being uncasyable, does not have synergy with Energy Field. To me, thats the deal breaker.

Im inclined to run Back to basics and drop a few Tundra for more basics. It boosts the 3 cmc slot and gives more disruption, plus its Amazing.

Leyline could be good in the SB... It's more hate and it's a relevant combo piece

Why is Back to Basics Amazing in this deck?

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Originally Posted by Snap_Keep

Leyline could be good in the SB... It's more hate and it's a relevant combo piece

Why is Back to Basics Amazing in this deck?

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Because

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Leyline of the Void, aside from being uncasyable, does not have synergy with Energy Field. To me, thats the deal breaker.

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I'm thinking that having the choice between Energy Field and Web of Inertia seems like a highly interesting option, allowing you to make a metagame choice. Web also allows for immense synergy with RiP.

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Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond could also be really good.

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I'm also seeing a lack of the best anti-aggro tool available to this deck; Ensnaring Bridge.

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EDIT: I'm not sure what the fascination with Energy Field is. The only matchups where I can see it being better than either Web of Inertia or Ensnaring Bridge (which I'm not even sure why you'd need Web with Bridge), would be against Burn and Tendrils Storm. You already have Counterbalance.

I realize how fun the synergy with Field and RIP is, but... is it maybe just a danger of cool things? Field itself is pretty awful without RIP.

EDIT 2:

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What you're describing simply sounds like a different, more combo-oriented deck--but I really think that Helm of Obedience lends itself more to a slower control angle than a faster combo approach.

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I've tried the all-in combo version, and I don't feel like it packs significant enough disruption to make it a better choice than other combo decks like Show and Tell. You can feel free to keep experimenting though. :)

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tldr: why dilute the deck to try and play a better control game, rather than making the combo more consistent and resilient? Miracles is better at the control game... so why not just win, instead of durdling around?

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I realize that this combo is slower than Show and Tell. I also realize that the control is worse than Miracles. There is nothing wrong with a combo/control approach, but you need to find the right balance of combo and control to make the deck successful. If you go too much into the combo route, you become worse than Show and Tell. If you go too much into the control route, you become worse than Miracles.

Counterbalance, Swords to Plowshares, Ensnaring Bridge, and Detention Sphere are something that Show and Tell is not running. At the same time, Leyline/RIP + Helm + accel is a much faster "win" compared to Miracles using Jace and Entreat.

Energy Field is leagues better than Web of Inertia. Web is only better if you have a RiP out and it gets destroyed.

Assuming you do not have RiP out, then most decks play a bunch of fetchlands plus instants/sorcerories, etc. so they have no prob exiling one card from their GY. However, Field has an immediate effect on the battlefield. To stop it, they'll have to Waste a land or destroy an artifact/enchant of yours. Assuming you do have RiP out, then Field is simply better due to costing 2 instead of 3 (which is very relevant in a mana-intensive deck).

Let's face it: Energy Field does a much better job holding down the fort than Web does. Imagine facing hands like:
UR Delver - T1 Fetch, Goblin Guide. T2, land, Goblin Guide & bolt.
Mav - T1 Fetch, Mother of Runes. T2, Savannah, Thalia.
Canadian - T1 Fetch, Delver. T2, land, Goyf.
Goblins - T1 Cavern of Souls, Goblin Lackey. T2, MWM.
The point is, these decks:
(a) apply fast pressure, making Web, 3 mana enchantment that gives them an easy option to escape, pretty easy to fight around. Sure, a lot of decks won't exactly enjoy getting rid of a card, but they'd rather do that than lose the option altogether as Field would.
(b) they have mana denial! Stifle, Thalia, Port! These make the 3-mana enchantment less feasible as an effort to stabilize.

When you don't have RiP, Field is simply better. It's not the best card in the world, but it's usually a multi-turn Fog as they struggle to find a way around it.

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Originally Posted by gkraigher

Someone suggest Path to Exile, I think that is the wrong choice for the deck. Giving someone a land is much better than giving them life that you don't care about.

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Don't think anyone suggested PtE in place of StP, only in addition. Definitely a good SB option against aggressive / tempo decks, imo.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

EDIT: I'm not sure what the fascination with Energy Field is. The only matchups where I can see it being better than either Web of Inertia or Ensnaring Bridge (which I'm not even sure why you'd need Web with Bridge), would be against Burn and Tendrils Storm. You already have Counterbalance.

I realize how fun the synergy with Field and RIP is, but... is it maybe just a danger of cool things? Field itself is pretty awful without RIP.

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I have to agree there. Testing the deck out I never found myself in a situation where I wanted to tutor energy field, much less web of inertia. If you have RiP on the board and enough mana, why not just win? If you don't have RiP then you probably don't want to waste a tutor on that when there are much more impacting cards you can get (the aforementionned RiP, top or CB if you have the other piece, humility / bridge, ...).

I don't think going full-combo is the right approach for this deck. As I said I see it as CB-thopter with an improved win-con.

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Energy Field is leagues better than Web of Inertia. Web is only better if you have a RiP out and it gets destroyed.

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I don't agree with Web either, I was only pointing out that it also works with Leyline of the Void.

Aside from lacking Awesome (this card can pitch to Force of Will), I think Bridge is straight up better than Web and Field. Field is better in some niche cases, such as against Burn decks or Tendrils Storm, but this deck has Counterbalance already. On the other hand, Field requires another card to not suck, where Bridge stops aggro by itself.

When I say 'not suck,' I realize that it can stall the game if your not casting spells like E Tutor, Brainstorm, Force of Will, Spell Pierce, cracking fetchlands, and you aren't being hit by Wasteland or discard. However, doing so limits you from advancing your own gameplan in many ways, and is susceptible to other various strategies. Why go through all those hoops when you don't have RIP on the board, when you can just drop a Bridge instead?

The difference between 2 mana and 3 mana is valid, but I also suggested running more accelerants like Moxes, Crystal Vein, and so forth. A 2/2 split on RIP/Helm makes assembling that combo a battle in and of itself, and I don't think Thalia alone is worth running a much worse card than Ensnaring Bridge when you have Swords to Plowshares and Force of Will already.

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I don't think going full-combo is the right approach for this deck. As I said I see it as CB-thopter with an improved win-con.

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That's how I see it too, except Thopters required several turns of Thopter/Sword to generate the inevitability to win, whereas RIP/Helm just wins on the spot. That means this deck should be alot faster at winning if it is able to accelerate its mana sufficiently, and therefore doesn't need quite as much control elements to secure a win.

Again, finding that proper balance is going to be key. Going forward, if this deck is to become a competitive tier deck, it's going to need to find the proper mix. There is an optimal configuration to be had here, it's just going to take alot of trial and error to find it.

EDIT: As some additional content, Painter/Grindstone also becomes an interesting alternate win con (maybe postboard). Leyline/RIP help avoid a major problem with that combo (Emrakul), Painter can allow the deck to pitch excess crap to FoW (like Leyline), and that combo dodges some problems Helm may face (like GSZ and Thalia). It's an interesting idea, although I'm not sure if it would be worth it or not.

I do believe Energy Field could play a crucial role in this deck. It ups the cmc 2 count in this deck, is tutorable and solves a strategic problem CB decks usually have. It doesn't solve the board, but it does solve the most important part of the problem, which is dying. Supreme Verdict, as awesome as I think this card is, should be in the side and should probably be played over Path there. Two seems like the best number.

When I said Oblivion Ring earlier, I meant Detention Sphere. Forgot about that one for a second. I like one Sphere in the main.

I agree with Back to Basics too. It's another three and works together well with the rest of the deck. Partly because of Energy Field we're playing many basics, which in turn is excellent for Back to Basics.

Although I think Porphyry Nodes is pretty good, I don't think it's better than the fourth Swords to Plowshares. It's a bad tutor target because it takes forever before it eats a guy. At that point you might as well tutor for Detention Sphere if you desperately need to kill something, because you're probably dead if you have to wait for Nodes to kill more than one creature. So the fourth Swords just seems better and if you really want a fifth Swords, but don't want to give them a land, then Porphyry Nodes does seem like the go to card.

Although I can see why Pithing Needle main is totally fine, and I'm not against it or anything, but I personally don't like it main, because it's too reactive and restrictive for my taste. Maybe that doesn't seem to make any sense because you can name any card but that's how I feel about Needle.

I agree with Greenpoe that akatsuki's list is nearly perfect. I'd make the following changes:

-1 Detention Sphere
-1 Pithing Needle
-1 Porphyry Nodes

+1 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Jace

More fours for Counterbalance instead of even more ones, although we would now lose a three. The two threes in there are both tutorable though. Jace is your second wincondition when your opponent is needling down your helm. This gives the deck a huge boost in the resiliency department. There needs to be additional removal in the board if you're leaning towards plan B. because of match-ups or something but it's much better to bring in extra removal instead of extra removal AND jaces. That's taking out a lot of cards and it takes up a lot of space in the board. I think it's best to move the Jaces (well, two of them and leave one in the board) to the main, and then have additional board control elements in the board to support Jace.

Maybe something to get around Abrupt Decay. What about Meddling Mages in the board? Naming a removal spell with Meddling Mage protecting himself sounds pretty good. Because we're going to have a hard time dealing with that card. Having Jace in the main is a step in the right direction, but I fear we need an answer from the board for this card, which is going to revive all kinds of BUG decks, even Eva Green maybe.
Mage also doubles as powerful combo hate, so you don't need 4 Detention Spheres in your 75.

EDIT. Hanni does raise a good point about Ensnaring Bridge being better than Energy Field in many instances. Maybe both should be in there. Bridge as the third three and then 1 Field and 1 Bridge instead of 2 Fields. The flexibility of Enlightened Tutor allows us to play both, which is almost always better than two of each at that point...

Started testing the deck on cockatrice. First game against Elves:

http://i.imgur.com/O4uK1.png

Awesome deck.

He comboes me out on turn 3, after losing his only Viridian Zealot trying to kill my Counterbalance... He tutors Gadock Teeg with GSZ (for my Terminus?) and proudly says go...

I untap, play land, Rest In Peace, Energy Field.

Opponent: "GG".
Player has left.

how did the Viridian Zealot fizzle?

anyway: no one still considered an EOT Abrupt Decay on RiP.
That kills both RiP and Energy Field. Seems like a major loss for cmc2, uncounterable, instant that will just become more and more popular in next meta.

imho we should pack some protection in case we see black (green is safe). Again, Sterling Grove and Greater Auramancy 1x..?

something better?

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Originally Posted by Poron

how did the Viridian Zealot fizzle?

anyway: no one still considered an EOT Abrupt Decay on RiP.
That kills both RiP and Energy Field. Seems like a major loss for cmc2, uncounterable, instant that will just become more and more popular in next meta.

imho we should pack some protection in case we see black (green is safe). Again, Sterling Grove and Greater Auramancy 1x..?

something better?

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I cast CounterBalance with one white mana up. He tries a 1 cmc elf, I blind reveal a 1 cmc card. He plays Viridian Zealot, I respond with E tutor for Energy Field, which counters his zealot (his only maindeck answer to artifacts / enchantments). He then proceeds to combo out and play a ton of 1 cmc elves (thanks to the countered Glimpse of Nature he recurred with Eternal Witness on the previous turn). I untap and play RiP + Energy Field. GG.



Misdirection and Divert are possible answers for Abrupt Decay. I'm testing them in my UWR aggro deck, and I really like them. Bolt my Nivmagus / Delver? I divert it to your Delver. It can also help in counter wars (change the target of a counterspell to your Misdirection). I even had a game where I misdirected a Hymn To Tourach :)

It might be less interesting in UW Sanctuary though, because opponent might not have a target you can misdirect too (e.g. opponent plays disenchant with no Artifact / Enchantment on board).

imho the shroud route takes less slot than the Misdirection/Divert one. More solidly, too

Misdirection their disenchant effect onto a Top, then tap Top always works if they don't have a target.

Abrupt Decay on Rest in Peace will not destroy Energy Field according to official ruling;

If Rest in Peace is destroyed by a spell, Rest in Peace will be exiled and then the spell will be put into its owner's graveyard.

Not to be a wiseguy, but just saiyan! :wink:

Do we know if anyone tried playing this at scg this weekend?

I mentioned Meddling Mage earlier as an answer to Abrupt Decay. It's useful in lots of combo match-ups and it's especially good because you probably name their number one removal spell. Junk decks will have both Swords and Decay so that will be rough but BUG lists or straight GB lists will have Abrupt Decay as their main removal spell and have a few outs to a resolved Meddling Mage naming Decay.

Meddling Mage is at it's best when you're trying to beat a card, rather than a strategy. Abrupt Decay is an example of this, as is Show and Tell.

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Originally Posted by Spigore

Abrupt Decay on Rest in Peace will not destroy Energy Field according to official ruling;

If Rest in Peace is destroyed by a spell, Rest in Peace will be exiled and then the spell will be put into its owner's graveyard.

Not to be a wiseguy, but just saiyan! :wink:

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Really? to break RiP would "exile" it because of the effect of RiP itself?
can we have a confirmation?

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Originally Posted by ReinVos

I mentioned Meddling Mage earlier as an answer to Abrupt Decay. It's useful in lots of combo match-ups and it's especially good because you probably name their number one removal spell. Junk decks will have both Swords and Decay so that will be rough but BUG lists or straight GB lists will have Abrupt Decay as their main removal spell and have a few outs to a resolved Meddling Mage naming Decay.

Meddling Mage is at it's best when you're trying to beat a card, rather than a strategy. Abrupt Decay is an example of this, as is Show and Tell.

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good but risky calll. Who will play AD for sure? BUG and other black decks.

BUG plays 4 Innocent Blood as a must, Smallpox Ghastly Demise, Snuff Out

imho a creature is not an heavy answear. not to mention that any (just any) deck packs answears to creatures (StP, Lightning Bolt, REB, just infinite...) so that would be a natural target and it would "revive" lots of their dead cards..

Meddling Mage could be enourmous if only it was an enchantment (fetchable, playable 1x, safer, etc.)

edit: FOUND IT!! Nevermore just 1 mana too much argh!

Meddling Mage is going to be alot better in the sideboard than in the maindeck. If someone isn't siding out their removal going into postboard games, it's only because they don't have anything else relevant to bring in.

A strong answer to Abrupt Decay is to just run more RIP's, and replay another one if the first one gets destroyed. Why durdle around tutoring for a protection enchantment? Shroud on enchantments doesn't even stop the bigger issues, like EE and Deed.

Nevermore does look like a nice addition though, since it can be tutored via E Tutor and gives you another 3cc spell for the Counterbalance curve. It's also much, much more versatile than Greater Auramancy.

I do have to question, at a certain point where people start dipping way too much into the enchantment control game, why one wouldn't just play Enchantress instead.

this is much more solid to me. massive use of blue, counterbalance, fast and reliable combo..

RiP(ped)Helm > Enchantress

more than pure control, my call is on the necessity of keeping our permanents on the field. this deck can't win in 1 turn, it needs 2 turn to set up the combo..

I'm also questioning myself what's the correct number of Helm

I ran 1 yesterday in an SCG IQ, and tutored for exactly once to win. I didn't feel I needed more than that. Playing with 20 lands will mean you rarely have 5 mana for Helm+activate unless you're already in a winning position. (ie, RIP + Energy Field)

With this deck you could easily drop all the spot removal and just go to 4 Energy Field - after all, it increases the blue count, and if you have all basics, fetches and just 2 Tundra, they'll have a hard time dealing with just one Energy Field, let alone the second or third, or just one with the RiP online. Why bother with removing just one creature when you can invalidate their entire strategy, regardless of shroud/hexproof/protection? The answer is creatures like Dark Confidant, but because of that you'd still have SB removal and for the MD, I would increase the countermagic (adding either Daze or Counterspell) to deal with these problematic creatures as well as whatever else you might face along the way. I think that despite the drawback of Daze, you're still countering a spell for free, you can still hardcast it and it's still blue. The fact is that this deck just needs a little time to set up, then you can lay down your lock pieces and win.

because with Gaddock we can't land Helm and win...

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Originally Posted by Hanni

...why one wouldn't just play Enchantress instead.

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Honestly, I think this is just comes down to what you are comfortable with playing.

An Enchantress deck with this combo is going to be relatively close to the competitive level of this deck.

Some days each one being higher than the other pending the meta.

I for one will be rocking the enchantress version because that is (at least for now) what I enjoy playing (a great deal.)

What I don't get is how are people considering Jace an acceptable wincon?

Typically you don't want an alt wincon that looses to the same hate. Jace can not be dropped under Gaddock Teeg, still looses to player shroud, and is weak to boards with tons of creatures with nothing to do (ahem! Energy Field)

...so what am I missing there?

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Originally Posted by Koby

I ran 1 yesterday in an SCG IQ, and tutored for exactly once to win. I didn't feel I needed more than that. Playing with 20 lands will mean you rarely have 5 mana for Helm+activate unless you're already in a winning position. (ie, RIP + Energy Field)

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Just an FYI I know I'm not going to convince Non-enchantress players to port this into an Enchantress shell, but enchantress naturally runs the ramp necessary to power a 5CMC win with relative ease. This is done for engine purposes, which just happen to overlap with this win.

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Originally Posted by Freggle

What I don't get is how are people considering Jace an acceptable wincon?

Typically you don't want an alt wincon that looses to the same hate. Jace can not be dropped under Gaddock Teeg, still looses to player shroud, and is weak to boards with tons of creatures with nothing to do (ahem! Energy Field)

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Jace is definitely clunky, but IMO we do need a second win condition in the main. And I think it's a huge plus that Jace doesn't die to Enchantment removal, unlike the rest of the deck. I also like him for blowing up opposing Jaces.

As for your concerns, we do have Swords/Karakas/Porphyry Nodes/Detention Sphere to remove their creatures, including Teeg. If they do manage to get a creature on the board, as long as it's only one we can with with Jace/Humility, since we'll net +1 loyalty counter every turn with the fateseal ability. It seems like kind of a tall order, but this deck is so grindy and you have so much time to find your cards that Jace actually ends up being a bit better than he seems. But, yeah, still pretty clunky.

I like Luminarch Ascension out of the board as another win condition, but I don't know if I'd run it in the main. Regardless, I don't want to get blown out by Serenity or Reverent Silence and I can't think of a non-Enchantment win condition I like better than Jace.

I'm of the opinion that a manland plan is actually a pretty good idea in this deck. The reason being that if a deck like this wants to succeed it has to be tuned against creature strategies primarily. When you face another control deck, manlands really shine.

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Originally Posted by Poron

Really? to break RiP would "exile" it because of the effect of RiP itself?
can we have a confirmation?

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Rest in Peace on Gatherer

I like akatsuki's latest list at #82.
Still I think the full package of Tutor is a bit overdone. I really need to test the list and see what's up. Didn't have much time to play yet. After next weekend, I can feed some tournament reports to this thread.

Any other people who are having good results when taking this deck for a spin?

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Originally Posted by Poron

Really? to break RiP would "exile" it because of the effect of RiP itself?
can we have a confirmation?

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It's the exact same way that Samurai of the Pale Curtain works. The exact same way.

After some test, Energy Field is a 4 of.
We want always to see 2 in a match. (one is lost somehow, always)

Also Porphyry Nodes is not that helpfull unless it is landed at turn 1-2.

but packing just one makes this almost impossible (unless you waste a tutor. but to tutor just to gain time? mm)

Overall I find Energy Field, very often, even too often, not to be better than a Propaganda (goblin, tribal, maverick, etc.) + (4 Swords to Plowshares anyway)

Perhaps a split 2 Propaganda 2 Energy Field?

and yes: Jace and any other planeswalker are just terrible. EF and Propaganda just keep you safe, not your walkers... also after SB, when you pack 4 Leyline of Sanctity you are the only one safe from burns...
definitly no walkers here

last one from tests: I can't decide myself between Pithing Needle and Cursed Totem (both as 1x in MD). Perhaps I'm more prone to Totem
Did someone else lose his sleep here? :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

and yes: Jace and any other planeswalker are just terrible. EF and Propaganda just keep you safe, not your walkers... also after SB, when you pack 4 Leyline of Sanctity you are the only one safe from burns...
definitly no walkers here

last one from tests: I can't decide myself between Pithing Needle and Cursed Totem (both as 1x in MD). Perhaps I'm more prone to Totem
Did someone else lose his sleep here? :D

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This is incorrect. Leyline of Sanctity WILL protect your planeswalkers from Burn spells, since they initially have to target a player before being redirected at a planeswalker you control.

As for Needle/Totem - I ran one Needle maindeck, and boarded a Totem for Maverick/DnT's. Didn't need to use it since i got paired up against 4 RUG Delver decks -_-

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

After some test, Energy Field is a 4 of.
We want always to see 2 in a match. (one is lost somehow, always)

Also Porphyry Nodes is not that helpfull unless it is landed at turn 1-2.

but packing just one makes this almost impossible (unless you waste a tutor. but to tutor just to gain time? mm)

Overall I find Energy Field, very often, even too often, not to be better than a Propaganda (goblin, tribal, maverick, etc.) + (4 Swords to Plowshares anyway)

Perhaps a split 2 Propaganda 2 Energy Field?

and yes: Jace and any other planeswalker are just terrible. EF and Propaganda just keep you safe, not your walkers... also after SB, when you pack 4 Leyline of Sanctity you are the only one safe from burns...
definitly no walkers here

last one from tests: I can't decide myself between Pithing Needle and Cursed Totem (both as 1x in MD). Perhaps I'm more prone to Totem
Did someone else lose his sleep here? :D

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But Propaganda sounds weak vs. Maverick. They just need to swing with one huge Knight.

I've been testing 4 Energy Field and been pretty happy with it. That said, there's no Karakas for the sake of the stronger manabase to make it harder to deal with the Field - which is reasonable given how common Wasteland is anyway. It's also really amusing to watch the struggle to deal with one Field, then I just drop another one. Field is a skill-intensive card, though - you have to figure out when the optimal time to play it is in each matchup.

Propaganda is way weaker and you're right. But also infinitly more solid. Also my version plays 4x Swords and 4x Rest in Peace.
the big Knight is never a problem.

At least 1xMD Propaganda for me

also great news about the planeswalker.. didn't really know that.
So, Leyline of Sanctity will save our planeswalkers from burns too? I start reconsidering the whole strategy then.. (with Web of Inertia it becomes a total lock)

the best part in the fun of playing this deck is how many players are not prepared to deal with enchantments at all..