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You might even want to shave a Grindstone or two, if you're dedicating to the control side of the match up. That would leave room for the off-chance Moon effects to stay in the main, and you side in your control bidness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malchar
Not a bad call against Storm. I have always kept the Stones in for the potential quick combo but we should prevent them from winning as a first priority. I'm going to test this when possible.Quote:
You might even want to shave a Grindstone or two, if you're dedicating to the control side of the match up. That would leave room for the off-chance Moon effects to stay in the main, and you side in your control bidness.
That's the idea. Since you're dedicating to control in the Storm matchup, leave the Stone to the topdeck and ensure the game goes long enough for you to find one and win from there. Jaya can get it done, and if you get Welder shenanigans going with Top it's only a matter of time before you see it. By the way, probably a dumb question, but can Spellskite interact with Tendrils?
I'm not sure about taking out the grindstones. In my testing, that was the only realistic win condition, and it's already kind of hard to find them quickly. I think I prefer taking out a lotus petal first and then a simian spirit guide if you need another slot. I'm willing to concede that they are the faster deck, so the one-time-use mana sources don't really make sense for us.
I can perhaps see taking out one grindstone since you don't really want multiples. Assuming that they keep their hand disruption and bring in some artifact removal, it shouldn't matter because they ought to be focusing their hate on the painters rather than the grindstones since the painters make the blasts live. There's also the thorns for them to waste their disruption on.
And I'm hesitant to shave mana sources, as this deck can stumble hard with little filtering for its mana. Cutting one, maybe two stones still seems to be a good line of play.
Please do not shave grindstones in the Storm match up. That actually may be the worst thing you could do. You could cheat on mana as you have to be aggressive on the mulligan. I almost always side out the moon on the draw against storm. Burnin wish is red and they only need one petal of crack LED for black and your moon is a waste. It is still an ok play on the play as you can slow down their cantrips or force them to go off without duress due to mana issues. The fact that your control element relies on two cards leaves you very vulnerable and it is not a reliable way to win. That and this deck is at it's best a shitty aggro deck. Without something like a second tuen Koth it is really hard to put the preassure on them through aggro means before they reload and go for combo two or another duress/silence effect. That is why you need the combo and more of them. This is why I have been stressing E tutor. We are a little more than a half turn slower than storm decks when you account for protection. The E tutor allows you to have a more consistent combo and still allows mana open to blast their important spell. The way to battle storm is with mild disruption (bc that's all we have) and a fast consistent combo and aggressive mulligans. Rarely will you be able to dick around with top and looting to draw into cards. Hope this helps.
Seth
Fair points. I think all this conversation revolves around the fact that faster combo decks that use red aren't very favorable matchups, and we're willing to try anything to shore up those odds.
@jandax- I understand that. My point was thinking about cutting down on grindstones doesn't shore up that matchup at all. We can't play the control match up. You can control a turn or interrupt their cantrips but if you go the control root they will eventually beat you. Our clock is too slow against them. The best way to beat them is to either combo first or slow down their combo long enough to do yours. Using blasts correctly can buy you that turn or two to get your combo turn faster than theirs. Thorn does the same thing it is a permanent that buys you approx2-3 turns at best.
Seth
Cutting mana, especially fast mana, against Storm seems bad. First-turn Thorn of Amethyst (or Trinisphere) is THE IDEAL play against them unless you're playing Mindbreak Trap (for mono-red builds at least). And playing multiple Thorns is awesome, so you want mana.
I'm not sold at all on taking out Grindstones, but they certainly are not the only win conditions against Storm. Dork beatdown works just fine. A Revoker under a couple of Thorns is probably your game, and so is Revoker + Servant and some Blasts, etc.
The point about Moons not being at their best against Storm is a good one. They can play around even a turn 1 Moon fairly easily. That's why I've typically sided out a Moon or two before Grindstone, but it does seem possible that the extra potential disruption from Moon is worth it. I don't plan to be the combo deck most of the time in this matchup, even though it is nice to end the game asap if you can.
It's not one of my favorite opponents but I have not had bad results against Storm Combo. The die roll seems to be the biggest factor to me.
This is the main logical problem that I run into against storm. Moons are generally the worst card against them, but they are far from being completely dead. In fact, the only realistic way to win by attacking is to completely lock them out of the game with a moon and revokers.
However, I'm starting to think that some moons should just be sided out to make room for the extra red blasts.
I usually board the thorns in for the blood moons.. you'll want magus for the moon-beating, but thorns is easier for us to get around early game... Get painter online, counter all the OPs shot and swing/combo FTW ;)
Alright time to end the storm discussion since people will board whatever they think is correct.
To change the subject, who plans on going to Grand Prix Washington, D.C.?
Top 4 split a tourney yesterday going 6-0-1 (12-1 in games) using my standard list found on the first page.
Beat Lands, Junk, MUD, UR Delver, Stoneblade, and Affinity (lost game 1). I won't delve into details but will instead touch on my unique choices others seem to shy away from. Looting on the day was phenomenal as always, digging for lands when needed, going deeper in the deck, and pitching unneeded shit. Manic Vandal killed 2x Chalice on 1 and a Jitte. Martyr of Ashes singlehandedly saved my my top 8 match against Affinity. I had to mull to 5 on the play and drew a jaya that began controlling combat. My opponent dropped a revoker on jaya and a confidant which would have won him the game but my slowrolled martyr killed off both and freed up jaya for pinging duty again.
My version is not graveyard dependent and operates perfectly fine even in the presence of hate. I would even say that running more welders provides insurance against grave hate and if people are boarding anything other than surgical then congrats, you have your opponent boarding suboptimally. My choices make the deck more synergistic and based on my results, I really think people should try it out and learn the welder lines of play that make the deck so crazy.
So OP list is the latest and most tested? Gonna give it a whirl
The short version of how the new legendary rules affect our deck (mostly for metamorph users):
Metamorph is no longer a catch all answer to random legendary nonsense your opponent plays. Jitte becomes a much bigger hassle. It cuts off the removal aspect of metamorph against show and tell.
Besides that, moon will always handle whatever crazy brews people have and painter is largely the same. Someone can try brewing with mox opal if they want but it seems most people have lowered chrome mox/petal counts for more consistency and that seems the most logical replacement spot in the deck.
Please don't anyone try mox opal in the deck. It doesn't fit. Moon effects might be a little stronger and Jack now if we do get paired up its a race to who can keep their Jaya active;). Otherwise who gives a fuck.
Seth
Well goodbye Metamorph once the rule sets in, you protected me from Jittes and Emrakul's for long enough.
So what's the new tech now, Runed Halo?
Hello People,
I just got my Playset Recruiters and I am starting to build the deck now. :) I am not yet sure about a final list, but I will post it here as soon as I have decided what to play. What do you guys think about Duplicant as a tech against Emrakul? Granted it's really expensive, but with Show and Tell that's less of an issue. It can also be fetched with Recruiter.
Jack and I have each taken a different approach to Eldrazi. While a second turn show and tell into an Eldrazi is really tough to beat, with the new legendary rules Wr don't have a valid way to really fight it beyond things like stingscourger, active Jaya, or ensnaring bridge. Drew, Jack, and myself all run 4 plus bridge effects and I highly recommend that for anyone. This goes for all versions of the deck.
After this it becomes how can you win with the deck with all the Eldrazi. Bridge buys you plenty of time but attacking isn't an option. For me I have gone the three card combo route. My card of choice these days is Rest in Peace as the card has great splash damage against numerous decks in the field. It also let's you run a singleton Helm of OBEDIANCE for more combo pieces. I run a single bridge or peacekeeper main. This let's you slow roll their attack and then still keep your combo pieces live.
The other win con is Koth. He allows you to win under bridge is really strong against esper and junk( not so much jund due to burn and haste). I currently am running none bec jund is really popular in the area and firebolt has proven better for me in that match up and other junk has largely disappeared due to people finally realizing Nic Fic blows donkey dicks.
Seth
Hi there,
i started to play the deck too since more and more players in Germany do not play any basics anymore and beside that i like the concept of the deck very much... The point of not having brainstorms or any library manipulation (i tested top and hated it since you dont have that mush shuffle-effects) i compensated with lootings, but not with 1 or 2, but straight 4 copies of them: Looting into looting is insane since you have every turn the ability to get 2 fresh cards without further card-disadvantage. Results:
Annecy 8:2
Nuremberg 4:1:1 (not funny to loose with active painter against 2 piledrivers^^)
Now here the list with explanations to every card which needs explanations in my opinion:
"Moonraker"
//lands:
4x ancient tomb
4x city of traitors
8x mountain
2x great furnace
//creatures
4x painter's servant
4x imperial recruiter
1x goblin welder (would like to have 2. or even 3. but dont have room for it)
1x jaya ballard
3x magus of the moon (i don't like the idea of cutting magus 2 and 3 since the strategy of 1. turn moon just wins too often alone)
1x phyrexian revoker (too good not to play 1 in the main, looking at sneak attack, hierarchs, qasalis, deathrites, equipments, vials etc.)
4x simian spirit guide
1x manic vandal (originally i had 1 squee in this slot for real CA with lootings, but i like the idea more not to loose vs. chalice 1 preboard or having an out vs. enemy equipments)
//other spells
4x grindstone
4x faithless looting
3x red elemental blast
3x pyroblast
4x blood moon
2x umezawa's jitte (why not play jitte by myself and win really many games just by t1 painter t2 jitte equip attack - but i have to admit that jitte gets worse with the upcoming rule-changes, since it's not more jitte-removal...)
3x chrome mox (again i don't think one should cut theese, ecspecially since in my build you have more red cards to imprint or to discard unnecessary moxes into looting)
//sideboard
3x thorn of amethyst
2x tormod's crypt
3x ensnaring bridge
3x cursed totem (i really like this card in metas where you face elves, maverick or multiple deathrites - beside that the card is a real good out against tin fins)
2x shattering spree (there might be something better, i just hate to loose against affinity or chalice 1)
1x faery macabre
1x duplicant
For any further explanations or discussion, post in this threat or PM me :-)
Greetz from Germany
Marius Hausmann
First off, welcome to the deck.
Second, unlike mtg salvation or other forums that have absolutely no worthwhile information regarding Imperial Painter, we don't really need explanations for recruiter targets. Sorry if that sounds harsh. As sad as it is, there is only a small subset of cards that actually work well with IP and they have all been listed on the front page and discussed ad nauseum in the first thread and the few pages we have so far. Targets just come down to personal play preference. In the future I would suggest asking players for opinions and past experiences with certain cards.
Third, to critique your card choices, I am sorry to hear that you don't like SDT. I won't try to convince you to play any since I still believe knowing how your specific build operates is the best way to play well. Just know that everyone else usually settles in on at least 3 copies. I have never even considered cursed totem and think it is a terrible choice since Jaya and Welder are the best creatures in the deck. If you are that intent on shutting down abilities just run more revokers or burn spells. I am also surprised that you haven't tried out Phyrexian Metamorph at all. He does get slightly worse in a month's time but at the moment it is another must include.
Besides that good luck playing
@Jack- it's ok to be mean. People have to start reading and not think they are actually teaching many people about a deck that is five years old. I'm going to post my new list here in the next couple days. I know you and I have a different approach but I ally love the entire 75, and yes Goblin Settler has found a home.
In regards to SDT, I really don't see how you can't use it in the deck. I'm still not sure if 2 or 3 is the right number, as it feels like it should be 2.5. But the card is objectively the second strongest card in the deck, the first being welder. With the exception of them and Boold Moon in certain matches and timing, the deck is a collection of sub par cards that have amazing synergy together, which make it better than the sum of its parts. That being said SDT helps hold it together, add consistency, dig for answers, and allow you to grind out games you should never win. Sometimes it isn't good, like against tendrils based decks, but overall I feel safe saying if you dont have some in your list it is wrong.
Seth
Marius made it sound like he had picked up the deck only by chance whereas in fact he has been tuning it for quite a while.
One should mention that Top does in fact not dig for answers in this deck — as sroncor1 puts it. Hence the replacement with Faithless Looting.
@ Julian- it most certainly does dig for answers. It with somewhere between 8-12 shuffle effects over numerous turns is the definition of digging for an answer. And he may have been tuning his list but it is an inferior build. I could list the reasons and it may deal with his meta.
Seth
Looting is a reasonable replacement for sensei's top. They are pretty similar: Top digs 3, looting digs 2. Top is reusable if you have shufflers, but looting lets you trade dead cards for live ones, and this deck can have a lot of dead cards. I'm not sure if you tried using fetchlands, but they do make sensei's top a lot better. I will actively hold off on using fetchlands until I can get value from the top since this deck usually has extra mana floating around anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasteland
Looting also helps welder a lot, but I'm not convinced that that's a good place for this deck to go.
As probably one of the few players who uses both Sensei and Looting, I am going to have to disagree with you Malchar about Looting being a reasonable replacement for top. Looting is a reasonable supplement to top but cannot fully replace it.
@Marius one reason you draw so many dead cards that you feel the need to loot away is because of your lack of card selection with top and subsequent shuffles from recruiter and grindstone activations that clear away the top two cards of your deck, effectively a 'shuffle effect'. Plus looting is a sorcery and ties up mana on your turn which is extremely relevant.
I really like this summary of the deck by Seth:
"the deck is a collection of sub par cards that have amazing synergy together, which make it better than the sum of its parts"
And Malchar I know you are a skeptic of Welder/looting, but I will repeat that even though my version (compared to all other builds) gets the most value out of the graveyard, in no way is it ever focused or reliant on it. All it does is increase the synergy of the 'sub-par' cards.
What i tell is not a "perhaps" looting is better then top - the choice was tested in multiple tournaments and in my opinion looting has been proven to be MUCH better then top.
1.) looting lets you keep hands that you could not really keep with a senseis top (for example hands with 2 chrome moxes 3 lands 1 looting and 1 good business-spell) - and yes i know that you cut the moxes down to 1 but the big strength of the deck IS (as you said in the 1. page), that you can win games by simply play t1 blood moon - i would not cut down the chances for doing so (for the same reason i never would cut the 2. and 3. magus)
2.) @sroncor you really want to talk about shuffle-effects with painter? you mentioned 8-12... even IF you have 4 recruiters and 2 fetchlands (which do not work under a moon, which you always want to have) you have 6 shuffler - not that much compared with brainstorm-based decks like bug, canadian or stoneblade. Beneath that the phrase "it's an inferior list and i COULD list the reasons" (but you don't) isnt't quite helpful -.-
3.) i never said sdt is bad and if i had the place, i would perhaps add 1 or 2 to the deck, but there is just no room - and testing has shown that sdt is just inferior to looting (in my opinion) - believe it or not, but the argument "everyone i know plays 3 tops" isn't quite strong (ecspecially since the deck does not really have that much top8 appearances). So just test the playset lootings instead of sdt and if you still don't like, change them back (i for surelly won't). Sidenote: You really have the time / mana to activate top, grind away 2 cards and look into top again? It really sounds slow... (while looting, ecspecially when revealing another looting does the job much better)
4.) you are perhaps right about the metamorph but as you said, it's all about the matchups you have to play and at the moment i consider the 2 jittes a bit stronger...
5.) if you dislike cursed totem, elves might not be a metagame-factor where you play, but in the matchups, in which you board the card, its not that important to have an active jaya or welder (jaya vs. elves / maverick way too slow, welder primary good against control-oriented decks)
By the way, for references... http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10881 - from annecy there was only posted top8, so the painter does not appear, but is on the 9. place at the first 400man legacy tournament...
Greetz,
Marius Hausmann
Congrats on your finish. The deck is good and worked for you. We are here trying to help you make it even better
The only reason the deck doesn't have many top 8s is due to the scarcity of recruiter. Drew has top8d numerous big tournaments. Grymer top8d a GP. Other Texans have top32d consistently. Seth has been playing Painter for 5 years now to extreme success around the DC area. My win percentage is around 70%. So yes, the people who consistently do well in multiple tournaments and who actively play the deck all play tops.
You are entitled to your opinion and in case you forgot, I said the biggest indicator of success is knowing how your deck plays with your personal preferences. So yes, you like looting and it works. The others on here are just explaining why we like top and our opinions on why it is better than looting. Also, as Phoenix4 eloquently put it a few pages ago, "Faithless for me, doesn't cut it alone... When you have no cards in hand, Looting is shit :("
Seth also plays enlightened tutor so 8-12 'shuffles' (counting grindstone activation clearing top) is not far off. Grindstoning yourself really isn't that slow. It is pretty similar to how you use faithless looting to flashback, except we can use do it at instant speed.
I won't go into Elves strategy since everyone seems to have differing opinions.
Lastly, if you believe Welder to only be useful in Control matchups I strongly urge you to use it more often against a variety of decks to realize how good it is. A small sample: 1) against Elves they abrupt decay your combo piece 2) against Dredge you use a Crypt and weld it back for a 2nd use 3) against Show and tell they put in Emrakul you put in recruiter, get Metamorph. Now you kill Emrakul even through a counterspell 4) against Storm you grindstone yourself to hit a painter and weld out stone for painter saving 2 mana. 5) against any tempo deck you activate Grindstone, they kill painter in response with a burn spell/removal, you weld back in. It really is amazing and you need to re-evaluate how you are using him.
@ Wasteland- if you looked at my list you would see I run five fetches and also have 3 E tutor. That is where the shuffle effects number comes from. Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon are great and the real reasons to run this deck. But for as good as they are there are times you don't want them in play. Often games two and three your opponent will( now this is assuming they are a decent player) get a basic or keep a hand hat will not fold to moon. In this situation holding back is better. So many people forget that Moon just hurts us less, we still feel the effect as it slows us down and that is relevant
In response to that hand you mentioned. Without a bunch of cantrips, which looting is not really that, you should never keep that hand. You can have people think that something good could come from it but you are more likely to draw more blanks and then you are fucked. Now if you ran top and the fetches I mentioned you would see 5-6 cards vs your 2-3. Without sounding like a dick, I was a mathematics major at Johns Hopkins, then 5>2 at least to me. Thus where I come up with the fact that top DIGS for cards. So really you have a better chance of doing something with a shit hand that you never should have kept with SDT than looting.
The problems with your list are that you do not maximize the discard effect by running only one Welder. If you go all in on looting Welder count should be 2 maybe even 3. It really is the strongest card in the deck and if you are playing pseudo draw effects that feed him he mitigates the card disadvantage. You also have a large amount of card disadvantage in the deck with minimal increase in consistency of finding the combo and other lock pieces. Too often you would be living off the draw. SDT helps prevent this. Your ability to win against Show and Tell decks is also questionable. The meta in Europe is different than the US for sure, but I struggle to see how you can consistently beat decks running Eldrazi.
And I want to finally touch on top 8 numbers. Legacy as a format has such high variance that the diffence between top 8 and 32 is so small. Somewhere people get off on top 8 without understanding he meta game and other factors. The deck has a higher variance bc we run less cantrips. Your list has even higher variance than mine, which needs more aggressive mulligans, which with all the card disadvantage should make it harder, not easier to put up numbers. I personally have done quite well with the deck. I have gone 5-1 drop at SCG events bc I have a real life and that often takes more importance. I play the deck in MD, VA area and have put up solid if not better results for over five years with it against some truly great legacy players. Over that time all of my thoughts on deck construction are based in numerous testing, events, and the experiences I have gained from the deck. Too often people pick up the deck, play for a bit and start to question numbers and cards lots of people over the past five years have come to agree on. Some cards we don't agree on. I think people should run E tutor, Jack goes heavy on the Welder plan, and Drew has had great success with Magma Jet, with Kim having great success with a more stock list. But all to often people are new to the deck, pick up a card and think back to when they first learned to masturbate, thinking they were the only one in the world to have this totally awesome idea. I miss the old source anymore. I look like a scrub as I lost 200 posts somehow, but there was a time when people took the time to read all posts and post thoughtful replies instead of just dropping their deck and pretending they now have the biggest dick in the room.
Seth
Ok so here is my most recent list
4 Recruiter
4 Painters servant
4 SSG
2 Goblin Welder
2 Magus of the moon
1 Peacekeeper
7 blast
1 lotus petal
3 SDT
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
5 fetches
2 plateau
5 mountain
1 goblin settler
3 enlightened tutor
Side
3 SoLS
4 Firebolt
4 rest in peace
1 helm
3 ensnaring bridges
Notes about the deck, yes it's 61 cards. Goblin settler is my 61 card. The card has been really strong against Jund and red based decks allowing me to totally lock them out of colored lands and then grinding out the win. The E tutor have really given the deck consistency. Peacekeeper allows us to sometimes pull games out against decks hat we never should game one. I picked it over E snaring bridge bc I have more tutors for dudes and with newer storm decks they are using Empty the Warrens a little more and sometimes you can't empty your hand fast enough for the bridge to stop their attack.
I played the deck to a disappointed 3-3 finish today.
Round 1 I beat Sneak and Show. Lost game one and use Peacekepper and Ensnaring Bridge to prevent some big monsters from smashing face. It is important to not that with a Peacekeeper and Bridge Echoing Truth is not an out for them.
Round 2 I lost to UR delver. I won one game on the back of rest in peace and helm. Otherwise it is really tough to use painter as the burn was always on hand. Probably made a misplay, but I can't remember much of the match.
Round 3 I beat Bant. Blood Moon is really good here. That is all.
Round 4 I beat miracles. Again Blood Moon was key. Here was a match up where I almost got the settler, but since I was worried about slow rolling the shitty aggro plan due to him having Batterskull as a possible out.
Round 5 I lost to RUG delver. Jack caught the third game. It was a one land keep on the draw with a top. I landed top, drew two lands and had a Blood Moon double forced. Followed by a wasteland on my city. Had I drawn a land over like five turns I had a chance as my hand was full of recruiters and blood moons. Sometimes the cards just aren't there. I still think the one lander was solid and if he didn't have the double force I think I get there. I don't think I would do it differently.
Round 6 I again lost to UR delver. All three games were super close. I def made two misplays that cost me the round in the last game. I was playing around forked bolt and his own REB, but to be honest I don't think most lists are running those cards anymore.
Notes about he deck in general. The deck still has game. In terms of the white splash, I doubt looting would have performed better than top, or E tutor. I would not have beaten Sneak and Show without the white splash. My duals never got waste landed, and I never lost a game by one life due to a fetch land. So I think the value they give is worth the small risks. Clearly I built the deck with graveyard hate and Jund in mind. I played no Jund and I will not lie, my board didn't give me the best chances against UR delver. With tat in consideration I don't think here is much to be done with my version of the deck. My misplays def cost me at least a round. Otherwise sometimes the deck bricks, the cost of stomps decks. I don't know where I would take the deck. My gut tells me Jund is still the deck to watch out for. It seems stronger than UR delver which seems terrible right now. With that in mind I am not sure what I would change.
Seth
I also played in Baltimore to a depressing record of 4-4-1 (most likely would have ended up 3-6 with competent players)
R1 Tinfins (0-1)
He killed me turn 2 as a I kept a slower hand that could get there against a slower deck. Game 2 I keep dropping hate pieces and weld out his pithing needle on grindstone to combo with crypt. Game 3 is turn 3 tendrils that should have happened turn 2.
R2 U/B planeswalker deck? (1-1)
Game 1 I had to break 2 standstills but got a moon to lock off black and manlands. I countered a Clique and killed his jace and then assembled the stone. Game 2 he led tarpit to my hand of welder, stone, top, blast, mountain, tomb, petal. I played welder and he played turn 2 chalice on 1. I let top get countered and welded out petal to check top 3. Played grindstone (countered) welded top out. From there just grindstoned myself, found a painter, and welded stone for painter to win. Welder actin a fool.
R3 Sneak show (1-2)
I kept 2x mountain, tomb, painter, 2x stone, recruiter on the play. Played turn 1 painter so that if he was running discard i would still have a stone. he turn 1 emrakuls so I grab metamorph with recruiter but he forced it next turn so i die. Game 2 I play out 2x mountain with revoker on sneak with bridge in hand when he through the breach emrakuls me. We play draw go and he plays show, i put bridge but draw next turn and can't play anything so he attacks with grisel.
R4 against Bug control (arianrhod's pimp as fuck deck) (1-3)
He plays delta go, I play welder. He disfigures eot and drops a standstill. From there I get all moons countered and he lands a deed so that locks up anything im going to do. Game 2 I had to mull terrible hands down to 4 but peel mire, ssg, ssg, moon so it is a snap keep. He mulled to 6 but had the force.
No point in dropping since my ride was money contention
R5 Dream Halls SnT (2-3)
G1 He plays islands and fetches and cantrips. I played grindstone and turn 3 recruited, he forced, I blasted. Got Painter and he scooped. Game 2 he did the same thing and stifled an activation for stone but I beat down.
The entire match I had no idea what he was playing so I asked after and he said the omniscience deck. I asked if he had emrakuls and he said 3. Oh well. Should be 1-4
R6 Sneak attack (2-4)
Game 1 I knew what he was on but still died a horrible death. Game 2 I landed a bridge and hid under that while I waited to combo off with crypt. Game 3 I again looked at unkeepable hands in any scenario and went to a blind 2 and died.
R7 Goblins (3-4)
Both games were simple combo turn 3
R8 Bant (4-4)
Game 1 combo with monkey-blast backup. Game 2 Welder went to town welding painter's and grindstones back to play as he pridemaged and k-gripped. Eventually I metamorphed his sylvan safekeeper and played a bridge to end the nonsense.
R9 Sneak Attack (draw. 4-4-1)
We both knew that it didn't matter and what each other was on. We played game 1 for fun and I got sneaked.
Obviously Emrakul was everywhere and I got destroyed. I had chances in each eldrazi game but was slightly unlucky with mulligans but thats what happens. Against any non-eldrazi deck I feel my list is optimal and I went 3-1 (6-2 games). Bug control comes down to if you can resolve a moon and I couldn't. If you can't, deed and counters and removal will make your life miserable. But clearly I struggled with eldrazi and R/w enlightened tutor (especially with top to put into play whatever you want) is flat out better against show and tell than mono-red. With the legend rule changing in a month I feel that some changes will have to happen and new testing will have to be done to see if Metamorph is still worth it.
Any reason you play goblin settler over avalanche rider?
Why not use Orcish Settlers for more landdestruction? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Wasteland
I can actually answer this as we discussed it yesterday at Baltimore. Riders' echo cost is more prohibitive to your post-LD game plan. The extra +1/+1 and extra 2 damage from haste is irrelevant since Painter is a bad beat down deck anyways. Also Seth boards in Sword of Light and Shadow so Settler actually is better equipped to pick up a sword the turn after it hits play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasteland
Consider the following sequence of turns against a Jund player: Turn 1/2 play a Blood Moon. The Jund player may have fetched a basic forest or swamp turn 1 or turn 2 in response. Turn 3 play Recruiter, grab Settler. Turn 4 Settler their only basic land. Turn 5 play and equip Sword onto Settler and win from there.
@Phoenix
Regarding Orcish Settlers, I would say its drawback is that you may not get any activations out of it before it gets bolted, similar to Viashino Heretic vs. Manic Vandal as artifact removal. Also, you would need 5 mana available to make it better than G. Settler which sometimes is hard under a moon effect.
That's definitely a tempting idea. I'm also very intrigued by your 3x Sword of Light and Shadow. How has that been? Can you discuss where it's been especially good, and whether or not you plan to continue to use it in the future?
@Wasteland- Jack gave a great reason behind Settler vs the other cards taht have similar effects. In the end the mana, and having a body to stick around are the most important things. It can still trade with Bobs, and Snapcaster. Although I will concede against Jace.deck Avalanche Riders is stronger. Overall the card is best at augmenting the Moon plan, in another way to strengthen it especially when on the play. It is best against Jund, and Jace.deck. However it is a nice way permanently handle troublesome lands with all the lightning bolts floating around.
In regards to the SoLS, it was played in anticipation of Jund. It is best agaisnt decks that use burn as removal. The lifegain, return of creatures, and +2 toughness are just what you want against them. It also shines against BUG and RUG decks when you get going. The last legacy SCG open I didnt see a bunch of Jund. Not sure what happened there as it seems to have more game against Show and Tell and combo variants, along with beating decks that use Jace. If it remains a force in the meta I would consider using the SoLS still. Jitte is another option, although that would be best in a tribal meta which just sounds miserable to be part of anymore.
Seth
PS Jack made a note that with E tutor I should run an artifact land so that it can serve as a mana source searcher. He is totally correct, and I would immediately update my above list with -1 mountain and +1 Great Furnance.
Hey guys, I’v been following the thread and playing painter for a bit now. Most of my experience in on modo, but I did play the deck at one of the GP Portland side events were I went 6-2 and ended up in 9th.
Here is my most current list:
2 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Painter's Servant
4 Blood Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Chrome Mox
2 Scalding Tarn
8 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
Sideboard:
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroclasm
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Manic Vandal
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Avalanche Riders
This list has been working really well for me in the last couple weeks, bringing in a lot of tickets. The Avalanche Riders is an experiment you guys have inspired me to try out. Up until last night it was as Orcish Settlers, which I did board in and resolve against Miracles. Unfortunately it was quickly sworded and my dreams of value were crushed.
I can’t make up my mind if I want to add a 3rd or 4th fetch, top work with top. That is likely the next thing I want to be testing.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Nick your list looks fine. Pretty standard. 3-4 fetches in mono-red is just based on preference I think. Maindeck 1-of ensnaring bridge seems kind of random since you can't tutor for it, you can only top/stone for it. I have never liked Mindbreak trap in Painter but do what works for you. What is your mtgo name? I am wondering if you are the one I've played the mirror against.
For everyone else, pretty soon I will try out an extremely small white splash (only 2 enlightened tutors). The change comes from Seth always saying how much flexibility it offers, the expected metagame of higher show and tell/emrakul decks, and I want to begin experimenting now since in a month I don't feel Metamorph will be good for a maindeck slot.
The changes I am thinking about are: out: 3 bolts, 1 looting, 1 metamorph and in: 2 e tutor, 1 blast, 1 revoker, 1 bridge. I haven't played with a splash ever but I anticipate the tutoring ability will compensate for the lack of burn spells to stall the game out longer. I will have to reconsider the sideboard after getting a feel for how the small tutor package plays out but will report back with my findings
Just picked up the deck and started playing. Looking forward to participating in this thread. Here's where I'm starting.
Creatures:19
2 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
Spells:23
2 Chrome Mox
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Magma Jet
4 Blood Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Lands:18
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
6 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn
Sideboard:15
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroclasm
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Forcefield
4 Trinisphere