You do understand why, though. Right? If Trygon Predator said "Destroy Target Land", then maybe we could have a discussion about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
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You do understand why, though. Right? If Trygon Predator said "Destroy Target Land", then maybe we could have a discussion about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
Not only "Destroy target land," but remember that playing against Shops (one of the big three), this reads, "Unblockable. When this deals combat damage to a player, destroy target PERMANENT."
Yes. That was partially in jest. Hitting Moxen and Time Vaults... basically everything versus Workshop decks is great. In Legacy I find the problem versus UWR in particular to be how they can nerf our 8 of our 14 or so threats with one card (RIP). Predator not only takes out all of the equipment but also help us with this divergent sideboard tactic. And it is pretty decent in a handful of other matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Yep. Against MUD, Painter, Enchantress and Affinity this is pretty close to the same. It does still have some value against decks like UWR post board where we have to deal with RIP.Quote:
Originally Posted by T-101
I haven't been a huge fan of Null Rod in my testing, especially against Equipment. The problem is that it's only really good if you get it down before they can get it onto a guy. Otherwise, it does very little against a Sword or Batterskull other than inconveniencing them some.
It shuts off Jitte and makes it so Batterskull can only be played one time. Once you get a Goyf at 4/5 or above, Batterskull becomes a one-time lifelink blocker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
I've liked Null Rod a lot, but versus more fringe decks like Affinity, Tezzeret Control, MUD, and Painter.
Against Miracles, Pithing Needle is probably better (because it can hit Jace and Karakas in addition to SDT), so long as the Miracles player is not running Engineered Explosives. Once Miracles runs EE, Null Rod becomes awesome.
PS - Null Rod is also awesome vs. artifact mana like Lotus Petal, LED, Chrome Mox, etc. Anytime you can bring in 1 card to potentially blank 10+ of your opponent's cards, that 1 card is worth consideration.
Sure it shuts off Jitte and hinders Batterskull, but it doesn't do anything if you're behind and draw it (unlike Grip, for example, which actually deals with equipped Equipment that you're losing to).Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
While Null Rod is pretty hilarious vs Imperial Painter and Storm decks, I don't feel that we generally need much help to beat Storm nor is Painter a common enough matchup to really focus too much of the sideboard upon.
Starting to think my 1-1-1 grip/rod/needle package was accidentally the right call
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
Hah yeah if you run all 3, you should have most bases covered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Well I'm definitely running grip; card is stupid good. The other two are iffy stillQuote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
To me, running Null Rod / Pithing Needle on top of Grip + 4x Abrupt Decay was a little overkill. They just weren't doing what I was wanting them to do in the matchups I was facing, so I eventually cut them and haven't missed either of them at all except against the odd matchups like UB Tezzeret.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Played this list to a crisp 5-0, position 1/62, today:
9 Fetch
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Sylvan Library
SB:
3 Spell Pierce
3 Disfigure
2 Submerge
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Winter Orb
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
My matches:
Bant Fish (2-1)
Junk (2-1)
UG Infect (2-0)
Jund (2-1)
DnT (2-1)
TNN felt very strong. Submerge in the board was really good, and I never faced Miracles, so I only brought WOrb vs Jund.
Very interesting without Liliana. Did you miss her? Why weren't you running her in sb either?
I think Null goes in the Pithing needle spot and the grip is the maelstrom pulse slots. Otherwise your board will be thin like Esper here...who only had 1 surgical and a cage in his sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
He should say...Thank god i didn't run into dredge
To be honest, I don't own any.Quote:
Originally Posted by phi
I won a game agains Infect thanks to Dismember not being Liliana instead.
She belongs somewhere in the 75 for sure, I just haven't been assed yet.
I wouldn't be happy vs Dredge, sure, but 1) it's pretty uncommon these days, 2) Having Needle and Null Rod don't really help vs Dredge either.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Its probably more common on the lower tables. But with a competent dredge player, in this meta, he can go quite farQuote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Definitely on the same page as Esper here. I like Needle over Null Rod because it's a proactive answer to Stoneforge into Batterskull as well as planeswalkers, but on the whole I'd just rather have Pulse. As he mentioned, the highest-impact sideboard cards are ones that allow you to catch up from behind on board - it's not what the deck's strongest suit game 1 so the cards you bring in should try to compensate for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
#scoreboard. Just sayin'...Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
For real though, I think you need another 1-mana counterspell for when you board out Daze but need blue count (Miracles, Elves), as well as just to gain back some percentages against Sneak and Show. I think I would play the third Disfigure over Deluge, haven't been impressed with a 3 mana wrath that is bad when you're behind on life.
Triangle Predator is pretty spicy. I think it's a bit too cute thought. It's pretty soft to the 8 removal spell UWR Delver deck, it gets eaten by Serra Avenger, and most embarrassingly, it's mediocre against Enchantress. The deck runs 4 ways to prevent damage, 2-4 ways to give their permanents shroud, and 4+ ways to tax your combat step.
#scoreboard? I don't follow...Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmutant
Deluge has been great at regaining presence (similar to pulse) and given DRS' "worst" ability, life is not such a huge deal. I do agree with your comment on the needed 3rd counter; currently I am fiddling with library main. I may try envelop, pierce or fluster (pierce being top dog) or maybe even Swan Song (maybe).
Oh, how I wish trigon was good. You are correct, though, I think.
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
IMO Swan Song is not that good, because the token stops your Delver. In most MA were you need Swan Song, Delver wins by making pressure.
PS: Thanks to Dragonslayer_90 for the new Primer! I love it^^
Swan Song should stay in control or combodeck as they don't care about a bird.
In tempodecks there are way better cards than Swansong,namely envelop and flusterstorm
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
Hi Team players,
today I went 4:0:1 with The Team. We were 17 players and I played the standard list exept for 1 Pierce instead of the 4th FoW.
My MU were:
Round 1: Mono R Burn
I won 2:0 easily.
1:0
Round 2: Grixis Delver (The list from the last SCG Top 8er)
Game 1 I lost against Stifle + Wasteland because I saw only Sea & Shaman. Game 2+3 I won with 3 Wasteland & pressure.
2:0
Round 3: BW Deadguy
In the 1st Game he kept a greedy hand with 1 land & Top and got punished for it because he drew his 2nd land in TV I think and I was way ahead with Shaman, Delver & Goyf plus Daze backup.
In game 2 we had a discard & resource war which I won because of Hymn. Null Rod took care of Jitte & Top and my Goyf went to town.
3:0
Round 4: Junk (With Mother & Mindsencor etc)
Game 1 I resolved more creatures than he drew removal for it. 2 Tombstalker raced his 2 Shaman with Jitte :wink:.
Game 2 went in his favour because of 3 Wasteland + Sword for Shaman.
Game 3 was a close and really intensive game! I resolved a creature, he destroyed it, I dropped a land he wasted it etc...In the end my 2 Shaman could burn out his last lifepoints (I love damage shooting Birds :-)).
4:0
Round 5: ANT Storm Combo
My opponent was on 3:1 so he didn't exept my Draw offer.
Game 1 lost to a error of mine after he resolved a Past in Flames :rolleyes:
Game 2 he got crushed with Null Rod, Pierce, Hymn + pressure.
After Game 2 thought it would maybe better for him to draw because its a bad MU for him and he must leave because he had a date, so we drew because no other was on 4:0:1 :tongue:
So, I went 1st with 4 wins & 1 draw and picked a Nm German FWB Plateau :smile:
My Sideboard was :
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Null Rod
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Will
I never used Pulse today and I missed my 3rd copy of Charm & Disfigure so maybe I change a bit. Null Rod was good against Jitte & Top but sadly I never faced Miracles or DnT...
Greetings
This is my decklist. Some guy was flaming me for bringing in daze on the play game 3...when i dazed his TNN. Did i board wrong? I took out my 3 force of will, 1 daze, 1 library, for 2 charm, 1 disfigure, 1 liliana, 1 null rod against RUW delver
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dark Confidant
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library
SB: 3 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
No you didn't, bringing Daze back in is definitely acceptable. Against some people, I actually don't board them out if they play right into them. If he was raging about being Dazed he was just mad, you obviously caught him off guard.
Yeah in g2, if they're not playing around Daze, I think bringing them back in is fine.
Lets just say I never took out the dazes...what other card can i board in in place of daze. Its not like I would ever bring FOW in this matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Actually, you do. I was on a huge losing streak to UWR Delver where I never won a game on the draw mostly because they tempo'd me out. I started leaving in a couple Forces on the play and it's been better (3-0 I think). It's critical to be able to regain tempo just to claw yourself to a position where your 2-for-1s like Hymn and your fat creatures can take over.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
I took out the hymns for seizes because I play a lot of blade decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmutant
I also don't like how i don't do anything turn 2 and all i do is a hymn without something to follow up with the DRS.
I very often keep in some number of Dazes regardless of being on the play or draw. Their curve is about the same as ours but in general they are playing fewer lands. We also have Deathrite which helps make our mana base more stable. I think that Daze is typically fine against them. It also forces them get to 4 mana or 3 mana plus a Daze to be able to cast TNN safely. Then there is the question of a particular player's skill level. If they play around it, it may be worth siding out. If they play headlong into it, keep them in.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Lol. He madQuote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
Whats the strategy against Jund(with punishing fire)?
My list user BOB instead of Tombstalker/True-Name, so i have biggers problems to punishing fire.
I suppose it is to run tombstalker or TNNQuote:
Originally Posted by order
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
I run 2 surgical extractionsQuote:
Originally Posted by order
In my experience, Winter Orb is a beating vs them.Quote:
Originally Posted by order
I'm picking up BUG Delver and giving it a go. I played to a 2-2 today at my local 4 rounder.
Round 1 Miracles 0-2
Round 2 U/B Tezz 0-2
Round 3 Pox 2-1
Round 4 Tin Fins 2-0
This is what I am currently running:
Mana-20-
Fetch X9
Wasteland X4
U/G Sea X4
Bayou X2
Trop X1
Creatures: 14
Delver X4
DRS X4
Goyf X4
Bob X2
Black: 6
Thoughtseize X4
Lilli X2
Blue: 16
Daze X4
Ponder X4
Brainstorm X4
FoW X4
Gold: 4
Abrupt Decay X4
I cut the Hymns for TS today after playing as it seemed like the deck really wants more turn 1 plays. I played horribly so I'm not taking the record too seriously, but Miracles seemed very tough. The Miracles player I played against was very good, so the gulf may narrow with some experience, but the mu seemed pretty rough. I wish there was a better way to increase the threat density. I am still unsure of the sideboard, but 2 Clique seems good for now. Would love some Miracles advice. I'l take this back to the local next Sunday so hopefully I'll improve with some practice. I'll post results as they go.
I'm looking at SCG Detroit and I saw that one of the guys cut the Lillis. That seems unorthodox, but the deck would love some threat density increase. I don't know how I feel with TNN as it seems lie American Delver is the better TNN deck, but I may be wrong. I wonder about two cliques main, swapping the Bayou for a Trop and having Daze a lil more live, I'll test allong that line and see what i get.
cheers
defector
Recently I've been thinking about splashing red in the sideboard mainly for Red Elemental Blast and potentially some Fire Covenant or Grim Lavamancer. I'm not proposing we go full on BURG with Bolts in the main because BURG's mana base is awful. I just want to board the red against Sneak and Show and other decks that aren't going toW Wasteland us (Miracles, other blue combo decks, Elves). Sneak and Show can be difficult to tech against with only BUG colors, and Red Blasts improve the matchup significantly. I know that black already has a lot of removal, but some of the best options like Massacre and Perish are obviously awkward, and Dread of Night and Virtue's Ruin are too narrow for my taste. Golgari Charm is good, but not every creature has 1 toughness. Fire Covenant is an incredibly efficient mass removal spell. It shines against Elves, but can be awkward against the other tribal decks I suppose. Overall, Red Blasts might be the only card worth splashing, but that is still a worthy addition in my opinion.
Toxic Deluge (provided you are not playing into it yourself) is far more effective than covenant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachronism
REB is nice, but how do you propose we play them? A singleton volcanic/ badlands main? In the end, I still feel like spell pierce and discard will get us there
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
I feel the mana base is stretched as it is, needing U for Delver and cantrips, BB for Hymn, Lily and Stalker and G for Goyf.
Adding red will wreck it even further, causing you to lose games just because of the awkward mana base.
Why do you want red? Maybe we can solve your question within our current colours.
Toxic Deluge is generally difficult to play around because this deck thrives on tempo plays. Sure, some games against creature decks you will be kept busy in the first few turns countering and killing things, but generally you want to stick a threat early and kill stuff just long enough to sneak a win in. Deluge will typically kill anything you play other than goyf if you are getting your money's worth out of it. Fire Covenant may not always be as efficient as Deluge, but it is instant and always one-sided which are both huge pluses. But again, access to Fire Covenant isn't nearly as important as REBs, since black has access to a ton of great removal already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
A singleton badlands or volc in the side (or main) will be sufficient against most decks you want REBs against and some decks you want Fire Covenant against.
Red is primarily for REBs, which improve the matchup against Show and Tell decks significantly. Spell Pierce is an on-color option but has obvious disadvantages if the game goes long at all, although hitting Sneak too is nice. Even with a large number of Spell Pierce I still feel unfavored against Sneak and Show. Maybe I would be better off siding Envelop (in addition to needle) against Sneak and Show instead, which would also provide some splash hate against Miracles...but REB is clearly the more powerful spell and would be the obvious choice if you didn't have to splash for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Generally, I think in the scenarios where I want Deluge (eg Mirran Crusader, Brimaz) Covenant is strictly garbage, to say nothing of Mom or Sword of F&I. While it will suck if we lose a DRS or Delver, if we play smart we should have a follow-up threat, while D&T (or what have you) is stalled out or at the very least slowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachronism
I still fail to see how eating up 4 sideboard slots for the off chance you may have reb + a red source is a sound plan
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
All y'all cutting Hymn are giving up free wins. Thoughtseize is fine, but it'll never straight-up cripple an opponent. It's a way to get needed card advantage and staying power in tough matchups, and it furthers the land destruction strategy. Yes, having turn 1 plays is important, but there's better things to cut than Hymn - perhaps the 4th Decay for Disfigure? Also, Thoughtseize is good against Blade, but Hymn is the nut too.Quote:
Originally Posted by defector
I'm not saying you want all 4, but I would be sceptical of a list with fewer than 3.
Defector, Clique is very good, you're right. I usually cut the Tombstalker for a Clique. As far as threats, you should have plenty - Lili and Sylvan are insane against them, and all the other creatures put up a respectable clock. Basically don't go all in unless you need to. Sorry that's not better advice, but it's a really situational matchup.