Ruby Storm

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

So it's entirely possible that a different thread could be opened for a legacy UR gifts deck, with some better mana and fixing, cantrips etc.

I think for the mono red thread we should stick to seeing what the most optimal builds are. The deck is still in its infancy, and its highly suspect to change quite a bit.

If you start a new thread for UR gifts, I'd be happy to help contribute.

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Sure, but I think Fury is what makes the deck viable at all. I think mono-red would be, by nature, much more stable. I think once you start splashing colors it inevitably leads you to TES/ANT, which are established decks. Gifts is a known quantity, if there was a competitive Gifts storm deck for Legacy I think it would already have been done (I could be wrong, but I've never heard of it.) I'd rather try and break open Fury, and have a red-based deck that naturally preys on a primarily blue format.

The lists I've been running can go through up to 5 counterspells, but you do need to hit a few land drops. What's great is when you have a Ruby out then almost all non mana sources / rituals are threats. That's the key to my approach.

Unfortunately it's hard to maintain consistency with the lands. I suppose the spirit guides could be reduced in favor of some lands. This would make the deck likely a 1/2 turn to 1 turn slower, but the payoff is that you would do better Vs the force of will decks, as you can recover faster.

Edit: I regularly talk to vieko on slack, mostly about this deck these days. If you're interested just pm me with your email and I'll add you.

Cool, thanks.

Oh I'm sold 100% on Ruby Medallion, no doubt. It's what makes the payoff/threats in the deck so much better. The power level with PiF, RtS, and HUF is enough on its own to include 4.

I don't think the Simians can be cut, for the simple reason that if the mana runs out to resolve a Reforge we need free mana to continue the chain. If we haven't played a land that can help, but having 8 other free mana sources (SSG/Petal) seems critical to me. I think the place to cut for lands is Helm of Awakening.

EDIT: Whatever happened to Wildfire? I think having some sort of haymaker disruption seems really strong. Blood Moon/Chalice have been mentioned but Wildfire seems as good, if not better. Doing a search for uncounterable red spells ATM...I messed around with Obliterate at one point in time

i never got to test wildfire. laziness i suppose.

the current list i'm trying has cut the helms in exchange for chandras and squeezing in some extra lands. hazoret's still has ~12-15 hits including chandra. i do agree about the spirit guide working with reforge, however it's just not as explosive without 8 reduction. you would need to have the ruby already in play when you cast reforge in order for spirit guide to really do anything great.

i think my recommendation for at least this iteration of the deck is that it should aim for a turn 3-4 win with the ability to win on turn 1 with some huge luck. this will give you some opportunities to get FoW'd, discarded, thalia etc.

it's also pretty easy to take this list and just find 1 slot for the 4th spirit guide. probably an act on impulse, past in flames, or 1 desperate ritual. totally up to you. spirit guide is also much better for playing turn 1 berserker vs storm/reanimator or whatever deck you think it would prey upon.

i usually use goldfish links for the deck, but i'll post here to keep a mental note as that link's list keeps changing daily.


12 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

1 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Desperate Ritual
4 Hazoret's Undying Fury
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose

3 Past in Flames
4 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Seething Song
3 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Defense Grid
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
2 Magma Jet
1 Past in Flames
1 Rending Volley
4 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Tendrils of Agony


the haymaker cards that would support this list well with chandra would be wildfire and jokulhaups. both are pretty easy to cast with chandra's RR ability.

Some good updates with the deck. Will let vieko update.

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Originally Posted by 10leej

I actually really like this list. Was there any consideration something like Commune with Lava? or is that too mana intensive? I haven't tried it in legacy, but it's done well enough in modern.

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Just an update here. We've tested this card and it's quite good. It does push the deck to play, LED, which is never a bad thing.

Hazoret's is now more likely a 1-2 of, and most of the lists we've been testing are just running 4 medallions, relying on led, seething song and rite of flame. The Medallion is still a huge edge, but the deck can win more consistently when it doesn't draw one than in prior versions just running desperate ritual, song and manamorphose.

Still need to do more testing but am quite happy with list right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

Just an update here. We've tested this card and it's quite good. It does push the deck to play, LED, which is never a bad thing.

Hazoret's is now more likely a 1-2 of, and most of the lists we've been testing are just running 4 medallions, relying on led, seething song and rite of flame. The Medallion is still a huge edge, but the deck can win more consistently when it doesn't draw one than in prior versions just running desperate ritual, song and manamorphose.

Still need to do more testing but am quite happy with list right now.

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I'm very happy with the list. Consistently getting 3-2s with a handful of 4-1s and ALMOST 5-0 twice. The learning curve is similar to TES / ANT. I would say we are about a week away from landing 5-0s on MTGO and putting down some primers for everyone :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vieko

I'm very happy with the list. Consistently getting 3-2s with a handful of 4-1s and ALMOST 5-0 twice. The learning curve is similar to TES / ANT. I would say we are about a week away from landing 5-0s on MTGO and putting down some primers for everyone :)

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I played against you twice on MTGO, vieko. I'm "Pathy" on MTGO.

I think I beat you once with Trinispheres/Chalices, and then the next match you broke through the lock with anti-hate in G3.

I have to say the deck seems pretty fast and resilient. Do you think it's better than ANT?

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Originally Posted by MGB

I played against you twice on MTGO, vieko. I'm "Pathy" on MTGO.

I think I beat you once with Trinispheres/Chalices, and then the next match you broke through the lock with anti-hate in G3.

I have to say the deck seems pretty fast and resilient. Do you think it's better than ANT?

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YOU DID INDEED! It is very resilient, with higher redundancy than TES / ANT, bit slower than TES, bit faster than ANT, with some angles / tricks the other storm decks don't have access to... I believe this could be (one day) on par with other Storm variants.

To our matchup: tax effects are difficult to deal with but not impossible. Storm is by far the hardest matchup to navigate against followed by a fast Reanimator (Depths / BR). Leovold... Leovold... can be an issue sometimes but nothing a bazzilion Goblins won't absolutely wreck. Ethersworn Canonist is the creature I like seen the least (we've got answers for you lady). Control decks are easier to handle with this list than with other Storm variants if only because we often have more aggression than they have counters. For example, I won against an opponent holding double Flusterstorm, Pierce, Force, double Stifle (peeked with Probe). In a different occasion, won after Surgical, Snapcaster into Surgical, Force, Daze, Daze... Most wins come in the form of Tendrils or Goblin War Strike.

Most of my loses have been against myself :) I've made some top-shelf / laughable mistakes seeeeeveral times! Mistercakes and I have tweaked this list SO much, it's been an ever changing learning curve... probably the reason I'm so hooked on this monster right now.

Anyways, looking forward to playing against you again soon "Pathy"!

EDITED: Speaking of lists, here's my latest (mistercakes is working on a slightly different approach):


UNDYING STORM 3.1

14 LAND
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb

10 RITUAL
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
2 Desperate Ritual

8 MANA
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

8 EXILE / PLAY
3 Commune with Lava
3 Act on Impulse
1 Mizzix's Mastery
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury

4 PEEK / DRAW
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 MANA / DRAW
4 Manamorphose

4 TUTOR
4 Burning Wish

4 REDUCTION
4 Ruby Medallion

1 DISRUPT / DRAW
1 Reforge the Soul

1 FLASHBACK
1 Past in Flames

1 STORM
1 Empty the Warrens

1 COPY
1 Reverberate


SIDEBOARD
2 Abrade
2 Defense Grid
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 By Force
1 Pyroclasm
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot

How critical is LED? I have all of the cards, or can get them, except for LED. Does it just make the deck a turn slower without it?

Call me crazy, but is Brain Freeze worth testing? The deck would naturally have to lean on Past in Flames much more, but dumping 15-18 cards into your graveyard seems like it would almost assuredly give you enough material to win with PiF.

EDIT: What role does Reverberate play in the deck? Are you simply copying a payoff spell like HUF/Act on Impulse?

hiya.

i think with vieko's commune version you do need LED's. i haven't really gotten too much into that version, other than goldfishing it at home.

i've been going in a slightly different direction with the deck. i'll answer your questions then post my latest version.

"How critical is LED? I have all of the cards, or can get them, except for LED. Does it just make the deck a turn slower without it?

Call me crazy, but is Brain Freeze worth testing? The deck would naturally have to lean on Past in Flames much more, but dumping 15-18 cards into your graveyard seems like it would almost assuredly give you enough material to win with PiF.

EDIT: What role does Reverberate play in the deck? Are you simply copying a payoff spell like HUF/Act on Impulse?"

LED is not critical in every version, but in a AoI/Commune version, it should be in there. the deck is not necessarily a turn slower. i'd say both versions are turn 2-3 decks that can win on turn 1.

I'm not sure brain freeze is really necessary, it seems like it's doing mostly what gifts ungiven would do. generally the deck can feed itself enough.

Reverberate is a 1 of, which can also be that 1RR guy that also forks a spell. he's in there just as a random goodstuff card that can copy a powerful spell, copy countermagic etc. it's by no means necessary and i've only been testing it, but i've never drawn it yet.

here's my latest list:


//lands
12 mountain
4 ancient tomb

//ramp
4 lotus petal
4 simian spirit guide
4 rite of flame
4 seething song
4 manamorphose
4 ruby medallion

//big spells
4 reforge the soul
3 hazoret's undying fury
4 burning wish
4 chandra, torch of defiance
3 past in flames

//flex spots
2 magma jet

//sideboard
3 tormod's crypt
3 defense grid
3 scab-clan berserker
1 tendrils of agony
1 grapeshot
1 cave-in
1 by force
1 empty the warrens
1 past in flames


sideboard is pretty flexible. berserker is very good vs storm, and decent vs cantrip decks. grids are great. could go to 4 on either one, especially if you don't like tormod's crypt. crypt is in there for ANT and obviously reanimator. the others are wish targets. with this list don't be afraid to side out a reforge and/or hazoret's as they become pretty useful wish targets. if i had room for another slot i'd probably consider running 1 hazoret's in the sb (or 1 wheel, but i like the miracle ability so i'd prefer to keep 4).

i would also consider fiery confluence in the main/sideboard depending on metagame. i might have to drop 1 crypt for one just b/c it's great to kill goblins/elves/stompy decks pretty easily. if your local metagame doesn't play that much storm, you can probably even consider blood moon for those 3 slots. it's another must counter for many decks and it can cripple them.

the major draw back of this version is that it is a little weak to leovold. chandra can kill it, which is nice, but he turns off manamorphose draw and reforge, which is quite powerful in this list. the other list more or less ignores leovold b/c of all the exile style "draw" effects. you can also consider sb rending volley if there's a lot of leovold decks.

i like this version b/c it has 6 maindeck outs to creatures and chandra is a pretty strong threat on her own. it's pretty easy to turn 1 her in this deck. she also gets you to 5/6 mana very easily with her +1: RR ability. if you don't like magma jet then the flex spots are probably:

a maindeck grapeshot, a maindeck empty the warrens, desperate ritual, fiery confluence.


if you have other questions let me know.

Thanks for that. I like Magma Jet over Reverberate for sure. This is where I ended up for a rough list:

4x Ruby Medallion
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Manamorphose
4x Burning Wish
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Desperate Ritual
4x Reforge the Soul
1x Past in Flames
3x Empty the Warrens
2x Hazoret’s Undying Fury
3x Act on Impulse
4x Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain

Sideboard
1x Past in Flames
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Grapeshot
1x By Force
1x Pyroclasm
1x Hazoret's Undying Fury
1x Tendrils of Agony
4x Pyroblast
3x Lightning Bolt

This is where I will start testing. Again, very strong emphasis on EtW. I waffle back and forth on multiple copies of Past in Flames maindeck (its so much better when drawn instead of tutored!) I really think PiF is the resiliency plan, with the primary plan of just blasting a big Warrens, maybe BW-ing into War Strike or Grapeshot to finish off. Another great point of resiliency is that Tendrils for 4-5 can gain us multiple turns to rebuild. I would definitely play that angle against decks where I know I will need to slog through multiple angles of interaction. Against decks that are goldfishing (storm, sneak and show, elves, etc.) I think a turn 1-2 big warrens is really the only thing that will fight through that (barring a nut draw into Tendrils ftw.)

I really need to just settle into a list and play 15-20 games with it so I can get beyond theory-crafting.

I'd highly recommend at least 15 lands. The 4 probes don't really make up for the 2 lands. Maybe cut 1 AoI.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

I'd highly recommend at least 15 lands. The 4 probes don't really make up for the 2 lands. Maybe cut 1 AoI.

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Easy-peasy, thanks for the suggestion. Will drop 1 AoI for an 11th Mountain.

I'll prob run my list tonight at my local. I also brought elves and miracles in case I audible.

Will try to take some notes and provide a decent report.

Nice! I ordered all of the missing cards I needed to flesh this out in paper. I have it loaded on Magic Workstation as well, which is easier but less reliable for actual data.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Nice! I ordered all of the missing cards I needed to flesh this out in paper. I have it loaded on Magic Workstation as well, which is easier but less reliable for actual data.

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I've been down the path you are about to embark on before so, here's a few notes to keep in mind:

• Two Hazorets means double the chances of whiffing with it: Haz is a fantastic card to find early and force your opponent to counter. If they don't counter it, it tends to whiff early in the game (lands) so be ready for the possibility and plan accordingly (you'll be tapped out for a turn). It truly shines after your opponent has ran out of answers (turn 4-5), you've got a solid manabase in play and you happen to top it.
• LED is almost a must-have when running 3-4 Act on Impulse. It makes AoI exponentially better. If you don't have access to LEDs, my suggesting would be to drop the AoI to a max of 2 copies and bump up the number of Past in Flames to 3.
• Triple Empty is awesome for most matches BUT Storm... just be aware of this... if you have a line to early Goblin pressure: take it and hope for that Wish into Goblin War Strike.
• I would swap Lightning Bolt for Rending Volley or Abrade as either deals with: Cannonist, Leovold, Teeg, DRS, Thalia, Scooze... Abrade also handles: 3Balls, Spheres, Cages, etc. I like Abrade best because it gives me instant solutions postboard and leaves room for wishable answers (By Force / Pyroclasm / Cave-In)
• If there's Storm in your meta: Scab-Clan Berserker is (so far) the best answer to them. Cannot stress enough how good this girl is!

Good luck.

Thanks for the response! I will definitely trade into/buy the scab clans. I get the uncounterable clause of Rending Volley, and I have them so that seems fine. Bolt going to the dome isn't nothing either however, especially if you have a big PiF chain going. The list of creatures you mentioned are all also dealt with by Bolt (with the possible exception of Scooze if its big enough.) Abrade does two things, but both of them inefficiently. I'll have to do testing, I'm not sold yet (sorry!) I'll definitely drop the AoI count.

Went 2-2 tonight. Beat ANT and DNT. lost to bant with kotr and dark depths, and 4 color control.

Full report tomorrow.

Mengucci posted a video today playing against mono red storm, it was you?

Enviado de meu SM-G900MD usando Tapatalk

Just watched it. That was me. It's an older version of the deck. Whiffing on hazoret's happens. Perhaps in that game 3 I should have baited with the hazoret's and then cast bringing wish for either empty or Reforge.

Hope it was entertaining, and sorry for playing slow. Newborn in the house so it's likely I was not just playing magic during the match.

here's the list i played last night to a 2-2.

//lands
12 mountain
4 ancient tomb

//ramp
4 lotus petal
4 simian spirit guide
4 rite of flame
4 seething song
4 manamorphose
4 ruby medallion

//big spells
4 reforge the soul
3 hazoret's undying fury
4 burning wish
4 chandra, torch of defiance
3 past in flames

//flex spots
1 magma jet
1 fiery confluence

//sideboard
2 tormod's crypt
3 defense grid
3 scab-clan berserker
2 rending volley
1 tendrils of agony
1 grapeshot
1 by force
1 empty the warrens
1 past in flames


Round 1: Daniel with ANT:

Daniel and I talk a bunch on facebook, so he's pretty familiar with the concept of the deck...but not so much specific numbers and he has no idea about the current sb. I won the dice roll and my opening hand was pretty sketchy, but knowing he is on ANT and knowing he knew what I was playing I kept.

Game 1
SSG, LP, RoF, Seething Song, PiF, Reforge the Soul, Hazoret's. I played out all the cards I could and cast reforge. I didn't get an amazing hand but had a turn 2 ruby followed by a turn 3 kill. Unfortunately for me he was able to kill me on his second turn. At least my reforge revealed his opening hand of Dark Ritual,2 land, LED, infernal tutor and a Past in Flames.
Game 2
I cut 2 Chandra, 1 Reforge, 1 Magme Jet, 1 Confluence for 3 Berserker and 2 Crypt.
Starting hand was: 2 SSG, Hazoret's, Ruby, 2 mtn. (top card was berserker from Mulligan scry)
I start with a turn 1 ruby. He plays Underground Sea, Duress. Then a petal and another duress. (he was on starting 6). I draw a Scab-Clan Berseker and he can't recover.
Game 3
Now he knows some of my SB plan. Opening hand is: Ruby , Mtn, LP, BW, PiF, RoF, SSG.
He plays a probe, then ponder and shuffles. I draw Berserker. Later he told me that he shuffled away his bounce spell because he saw that the coast was clear and wanted to find a faster combo hand.

Round 2: Johannes with Bant

This is the first time I've met Johannes, and he seemed to be a nice guy. I saw he was playing a bunch of countermagic from the previous round.
I won the die roll and started with a hand of:
Song, Tomb, RoF, Ruby, Hazoret's, 2 Mountain.

I play turn 1 ruby and there's no counter. He plays a turn 1 Misty and passes the turn. i played my 2nd land and a petal and passed the turn. (i always like playing petal in case i hit my miracle). He brainstormed and then got a tundra.

On my turn 3 I play the Tomb following by the rest of the hand and went for it. He didn't have the force (later he showed me a handful of daze and stifle), but unfortunately for me Hazoret's completely whiffed and revealed Petal, SSG, land, land.

He played KotR on turn 3, and on turn 4 he Tutored up the dark depths to kill me.

Game 2:
I mulliganned a reasonable hand but with only 1 land and ruby, but also a rending volley. My 6 is much worse. I didn't really take notes on this one, but he had a turn 1 noble, turn 2 kotr, turn 3 stage and tutor up dark depths. he also had 2 force of will, 2 daze, 1 flusterstorm and a stifle.

Round 3: Jan with DNT

I also speak w/ Jan regularly and he's a nice guy. He's always playing DNT, pox, or aggro loam. I knew he was on DNT because he is preparing for Prague. (I'm not going b/c I just had a baby and my wife would kill me!....life's priorities!)

I didn't take notes but I'll try to remember what happened here:

Game 1
I had a turn 1 ruby. I know I had manamorphose and a hazoret's but I needed another mana source. He started with Vial, then port, then he played recruiter on turn 3 to vial in a thalia. (canceling out my ruby). I unfortunately never drew another land until it was too late. Sometimes DNT does what it's supposed to do!

Game 2

I start with a turn 1 Ruby. Turn 2 I go for a Hazoret's which hits 4 non lands, including a Ruby, Seething Song, and Reforge The Soul and a Chandra. I won that turn.

Game 3
I have another turn 1 Ruby on the draw. I remember preemptively getting a Burning Wish for Canonist. I also drew a Rending Volley while we both durdled for a few turns and then killed his Thalia, and then killed him. I remember Chandra being pretty good here as well.

R4 Alex

I've met Alex a few times and another likable guy. He's always playing some kind of Control Brew. This time he's playing 4c control with lots of snapcasters, khologans, flusterstorm, fow, DRS etc.

Game 1
I start again with a turn 1 Ruby. (wee) He starts with a ponder. I play a tomb, cast seething song, Burning Wish (it resolves) and I go for 6 goblins. He played a strix, takes 5, plays a DRS, takes 4, then i draw my fiery confluence. I get excited b/c I initially think it can deal 1 damage to only his creatures (stupid german card..or stupid me!) When I play it, I realize what it actually does and choose to deal 6 to him, then attack. he goes down to 3 life, but can gain 2 from the DRS.

I think had I attacked first then wiped out his DRS and dealt 4 to him I would have been a lot better off. After that turn he killed both of my ruby medallions with khologan's command + snapcaster, played a fluster, FoW, and a Leovold. ouch!

Game 2
I start with a defense grid on turn 1. He FoW's. I play another Defense grid on t2. He FoW's. Then he Hymns me discarding ruby, pif. I play a land and Ruby medallion. I miracle a Reforge. This game goes back and forth a lot. He casts 3 FoW's, counterspell, and flusterstorm 3 times and Toxic Deluge for my goblins. He also played surgical extraction twice. Once on my Chandra and once on my ...I have no idea.

Then board position at the near end was the following

My Chandra (6 Loyalty) + Ruby + some lands + Petals. vs his DRS, Snapcaster, and Jace TMS with 3 Counters.

My hand is Chandra, and I draw a burning wish. He's tapped out too with all sources. If I can resolve Wish to get Past in Flames I win easily here.

I start my turn by +1 chandra and reveal nothing good. I cast Simian Spirit guide as a blocker to protect Chandra. Then I cast Burning Wish, he FoW #4. This is not so insanely lucky b/c I did wheel at least 2 or maybe 3 times at this point and he was cantripping like crazy to find more counters. (he had about 20 cards left in his deck, I had counted).

Then I played the next Chandra to see if I can hit the PiF naturally from the deck. I whiff and deal 2 to Jace, then I cast a Simian Spirit guide. It wasn't enough and I died.

In hindsight what I should have done was create a threat to his Jace. Chandra, deal 2 to his Jace, set it to 1. Then play the 2nd Chandra, he would likely FoW this to protect his Jace. Then I was free to cast Wish into PiF into a win.

I also chose not to board in the Berserker, which was maybe a mistake. I boarded in rending volleys and grids, which are great, but I could have also boarded in the 3 guys and taken out some of the more All in combo stuff. Hazoret's is still really good with berserker grid chandra etc.

We played a third game for fun without SB and I was able to overwhelm his countermagic and discard. That felt nice.

Fortunately in Berlin the players are good and it's always a good learning experience. Carsten Kotter, Alex and Daniel was there as well and we discussed the deck a little bit on the train ride back. Carsten is pretty innovative so I like to hear his opinions. He said that I should really consider Blood Moon in this version, and the ability to steal game 1's randomly is probably worth it. I don't really have a good argument to that especially now that I am running 4 Chandra. I feel in the other versions, especially the LED version, blood moon is too often a dead card.

with an update this deck has 4 blood moon, 4 chandra and then the rest is a combo deck. i still need to test it, but it feels like if not going for the other plans it could be a solid option.

This archetype could really go 3 ways.

Midrange with blood moon and chandra. it can still win with turn 1 hands if you're super lucky. (something like turn 1 hazoret's into wheel + seething song can easily get there). it can also end a game with t1 blood moon or even t1 chandra can steal a lot of games. it's also got some good topdecks with 3 reforge, hazoret's, chandra and past in flames.

LED combo. This version is trying to abuse as much as possible with exile cards temporarily so that they can be cast with LED or other rituals. It's by far the fastest version and is also likely the most fun to goldfish. Deck is not as resilient as midrange, but if you can hit your land drops Commune with Lava can easily keep blue decks under control. I feel like this deck is likely to win mostly on turn 3, but it can still win on turn 1 as well.

8 rock. 4 ruby and 4 helm of obedience. This version is trying to maximize the amount of spells that would be broken if they cost 1 or 2 less. It's also the most budget friendly version, but it is quite capable of turn 1 and likely has the most turn 2 kills since a turn 1 rock is very easy to accomplish. Consider this the turn 2 deck.

midrange = turn 3-5
LED = turn 3-4
8 rock = turn 2-3

the deck is still in its infancy but it is super fun to play. it's also nice to play a storm deck that doesn't run counterspells or discard and isn't a glass cannon like belcher, spanish inquisition, or oops all spells.

here's my latest version of the midrange. vieko is the expert on the LED version, and I feel like the 8 rock should be somebody else's baby if they're willing! they can start with some of the other builds in the thread.

4 Seething Song
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Blood Moon
4 Lotus Petal
3 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Manamorphose
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Ancient Tomb
12 Mountain

sb:

2 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 By Force
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Rending Volley
3 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Tormod's Crypt


this is not a 100% set in stone list, and is still in testing phases. depending on the meta as well, empty the warrens maindeck over some of those numbers could be correct.

if stealing games w/ blood moon isn't your thing, i'd recommend this configuration for the midrange:

4 ancient tomb
12 mountain
4 lotus petal
4 rite of flame
4 burning wish
4 manamorphose
4 ruby medallion
4 seething song
4 simian spirit guide
3 empty the warrens
3 past in flames
3 chandra, torch of defiance
3 reforge the soul
3 hazoret's undying fury
1 reiterate

sb:
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Past in Flames
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 By Force
1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Rending Volley
3 Scab-Clan Berserker
2 Tormod's Crypt


notice that reiterate can allow you to get infinite storm with a Ruby and a seething song. also copying a hazoret's seems reasonably unfair.

Just curious: how many games have you played out where you had the choice between EtW or Reforge the soul? It happened to me several times in testing (I also play 3 maindeck warrens) and I had to choose. I only had a storm count of maybe 3, with 5 mana floating (no Ruby) and I had to choose 8 goblins or Reforge and hope I don't brick. Both times it was turn 2, trying to force a window against DnT (their turn 2 would be Thalia, with a port already online to lock me out turns 3+.) I thought the warrens would help with speed, but instead it became too awkward. My thought is to have more mana spells (Desperate Ritual up to 4) to enable fast Warrens games and to trim down a bit on the ancillary cards (Hazoret's, Act on Impulse, both as singeltons maybe.) Currently I am just trimming an EtW for another DRitual.

How about Gamble, searching out PiF? Have you tried that?

EDIT: Chandra is looking sexier and sexier in this deck...does everything you want. Interaction, removal, mana, and an ultimate that kills opponents. I might have to buckle down and trade into a set.

so when i played it on tuesday i wasn't running any maindeck Empty. that decision never really came up for me!

i'd say treat it like TES. with TES you probably won't beat DNT with 8 goblins. just figure out the math if they get a turn 2 stoneforge, turn 3 batterskull.

depending on your metagame you can choose to play with chandra. i like it b/c it's good vs the midrange/tempo decks that normally prey on combo. being able to shoot down a creature is also a benefit, but ramping or getting a card each turn is great. it's not as backbreaking as jace TMS, but it's close. just remember, you can't play lands off of her exile ability. i'd say start with 1 or 2 chandra and you can definitely run some more mana/gambles and try to get there. gamble is certainly a lot better if you're tutoring up past in flames most of the time.

i honestly haven't tried gamble before, you could definitely replace the 3rd maindeck PiF with a gamble and see how it goes. it's definitely better with chandra if you're limited on mana and get flooded in one way or another.

hazoret's is definitely in it for the gambler in me. sometimes you whiff, but sometimes you win the game. i'd say it's about 50/50 if you have about 15 hits. even if i tap out for 5/6 mana and flip only a chandra, that's usually enough to off-set the lands not untapping for a turn.

if you're more into just having a faster combo deck, then check out the LED list. i'm sure vieko will update soon.


testing 2 gambles, and it seems pretty good. will continue testing them. (non blood moon version)

list i'm screwing around with looks like this:


4 burning wish
3 reforge the soul
3 hazoret's undying fury
3 chandra, torch of defiance
3 past in flames
2 empty the warrens
2 gamble
4 seething song
4 manamorphose
4 ruby medallion
4 rite of flame
4 simian spirit guide
4 lotus petal
12 mountain
4 ancient tomb

sb:
3 rending volley
3 scab-clan berserker
2 tormod's crypt
1 cave-in
1 by force
1 past in flames
1 empty the warrens
1 grapeshot
1 reforge the soul
1 tendrils of agony

Acceleration
4x Ruby Medallion
4x Rite of Flame
4x Seething Song
1x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Desperate Ritual

Draw/Storm Boosters
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Manamorphose
1x Act on Impulse

Engine
2x Past in Flames
2x Hazoret’s Undying Fury
4x Reforge the Soul

Threats
2x Empty the Warrens
4x Burning Wish

Lands
4x Ancient Tomb
12x Mountain

Sideboard
1x Past in Flames
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Pyroclasm
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x By Force
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Rending Volley
4x Pyroblast

Trying this out before I get too deep into testing Chandra or Gamble. I think the right way for me to approach it, Act on Impulse/Hazoret's are simply Reforge the Soul #5-6. They just aren't reliable enough to go all-in on. I like Gamble, it's like a Gifts for 1 instead of 4, which is ultra efficient when searching for PiF, but its only good if I already have a sizable amount of mana in my pool. I need to be prepared to pay 5 for PiF, after paying for Gamble, and I would still need at least R floating to continue the chain. So 7 mana...that's quite a bit when I haven't hit PiF yet.

Chandra would inevitably be x2-3, dropping AoI, a Hazoret's or Pif, or a Mountain/SSG. Ditto for Gamble if I work that in, but I don't think I can do both. Gitaxian Probe would also be a spot to incorporate interaction, as its the least productive of the spells in the deck (aside from information.)

Mostly I think I need to be more patient. I keep trying desperately to jam a t2 combo and this just isn't a turn 2 deck, it's definitely a turn 3 deck (on average.) Sometimes it will blast a big EtW t1-2 but that shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be an inevitable t3 Warrens/big Grapeshot.

i think it's a fine approach you're using, but keep in mind you might want 3 empty the warrens since you're so determined to ramp. it's also possible you want to leave 1 wheel in the sb so it's a viable target. other than that i'd say just test test test.

-Rob

Has anyone tried out Overmaster in here? Cheap cantrip for digging and offers some protection for a Reforge or PIF vs decks that can counter you. Not sure what you cut for it, but it could be worth testing.

Yep we tried overmaster. It's good with Reforge, but that's about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

i think it's a fine approach you're using, but keep in mind you might want 3 empty the warrens since you're so determined to ramp. it's also possible you want to leave 1 wheel in the sb so it's a viable target. other than that i'd say just test test test.

-Rob

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Agreed

Hey everyone! First time using The Source. I was directed to "the forums" by an MTGOer earlier today, so here I am. Anyways, my decklist (a rough idea that I came up with one late evening) is all about rituals, eschewing the mana reducers that the fine fellow I played against earlier used. My meta is very light on counterspells, so I'm preying on that and praying I don't run into too many FoW while playtesting. The actual list is a mess, as is the sideboard, but I'd like to contribute to the Mono Red Storm forum any way I can. Anyways, here's my list. Constructive feedback is appreciated. Thanks!

Maindeck:
16 Mountain
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Burning Wish
4 Seething Song
4 Reforge the Soul
3 Past in Flames
2 Grapeshot
3 Empty the Warrens

Sideboard:
1 Past in Flames
2 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Chain Lightning
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Molten Rain
1 Banefire
1 Goblin War Strike
3 Tormod's Crypt

Hiya, that was me today. Thanks for posting. I think we just need some more data from you. Mostly because if you're hoping to avoid fow decks, I'm not sure why I wouldn't just play Belcher. Also more than 50% of the meta is fow decks, but I suppose local metas are excluded.

To move the dialoge a little, what is your local meta?

My "meta" is really just a group of friends that play Legacy occasionally, and because we're all broke college students, the decks are budget versions of the real things. We've got a diehard Burn player, some janky ramp brew that functions similarly to 12-Post, Elves, and me. It feels like practically the textbook meta for Storm to take root. Regarding results— I can't tell you matchup percentages of anything, but I can give my impressions on the matchups I routinely face. Burn is a straight-up race that (if I have a good hand) I can win easily. The ramp deck usually gives me plenty of time to go off, but Elves puts pressure on the ground that can make winning with Empty difficult (when I'm on the draw, that is). I hope that helps.

Ah ok. Just seems like casual. Totally fine with whatever list you want then.

Try to experiment with the cards listed through the thread, even if you try 1 card at a time.

hi at all.

I'm trying a quite different list from the original mistercakes' one. I try to use directly md a 3x of Defense Grid. I play in Lucca and the meta is heterogeneous: for this reason, i prefer have a little protection md and goes off with constant at t2.

this is the list that i'll test:


// 60 Mazzo
// 12
12 Mountain

// 11 Artifact
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ruby Medallion
3 Defense Grid

// 4 Creature
4 Simian Spirit Guide

// 8 Instant
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song

// 4 Land
4 Ancient Tomb

// 3 Planeswalker
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

// 18 Sorcery
4 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Hazoret's Undying Fury
2 Past in Flames
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Rite of Flame


// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Creature
SB: 3 Scab-Clan Berserker
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction

// 2 Planeswalker
SB: 2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

// 7 Sorcery
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
SB: 1 Hazoret's Undying Fury
SB: 1 Anarchy/Anger of the Gods
SB: 1 Pyroclasm


i've a couple of questions:

1) why md is played only ssg and not chrome mox?
2) why not splash for cantrips? if our opponent has 1-2 cpells we are litteraly at the top deck.

thx if u want awnser ^^

cya, Hadhod

don't mind answering! can use as much help from other players to get this deck on the radar.

so i think it's possible with using chandra that mox could be played over simian spirit guide. i haven't tested it enough, but usually mox is a lot of card disadvantage. if you were to test it i'm pretty sure you would need to cut the guides (i like them b/c they also function as possible blockers for chandra and don't waste an additional card).

(note you have 5 chandras in your list)

the other question is about cantrips. you could potentially play cantrips in a deck like this, but unfortunately the other decks that cantrip well are TES, ANT, and high tide. they unfortunately just do the job of cantripping a lot better, and I think the manabase is better as a stable one. vieko does run probes, which are probably the best cantrip for this deck (compared w/ any of the other blue ones).

you could also run act on impulse, if you have out a ruby medallion it's a perfectly fine topdeck for only 1R.

because you're on 3 grids maindeck, i would try to trim hazoret's to at most 2, you could potentially go to 1. i'd run 2 act on impulse in place of them. up to you though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mistercakes

don't mind answering! can use as much help from other players to get this deck on the radar.
(note you have 5 chandras in your list)

---

i see it in a test i did now xD

i think it is By Force.

I think the deck was pretty good if u want go storm at t1, but it's only a first feeling.

Quote:

---

the other question is about cantrips. you could potentially play cantrips in a deck like this, but unfortunately the other decks that cantrip well are TES, ANT, and high tide. they unfortunately just do the job of cantripping a lot better, and I think the manabase is better as a stable one. vieko does run probes, which are probably the best cantrip for this deck (compared w/ any of the other blue ones).

you could also run act on impulse, if you have out a ruby medallion it's a perfectly fine topdeck for only 1R.

because you're on 3 grids maindeck, i would try to trim hazoret's to at most 2, you could potentially go to 1. i'd run 2 act on impulse in place of them. up to you though.

---

Act on Impulse can be good, like other tested it, but with "only" 4 ruby and 8 rite i'm not sure i want it. In the case it's resolve and u find a Hazoret?

for now, with 3 grids, i'm quite good with them, but i don't have a lots of test for now. I want test against delver before i cut them, but 2x seems the right choose for the md

believe it or not the big card in the deck is not hazoret's, it's reforge the soul. there's a reason wheel of fortune is banned, and we're more or less playing 7 copies of it. hazoret's can be great if you hit, but it's miserable if you whiff. i think the effect is powerful enough to continue running it, although vieko told me he has moved past it.

so i played two leagues with my latest list:

beat UR (2-0) delver
beat BR (2-1) reanimator
beat DNT (2-1)
lost DNT (1-2) (same guy)
lost eureka show (0-2)

beat ANT (2-0)
lost DNT (0-2) (pleasantkenobi)
beat loam (2-0)
beat 4c control (2-1) pellenik
beat 4c control (2-0) jacetmsst

overall 7-3

I'm pretty satisfied with these results given that the players were all pretty competent (especially the 4c control decks, i've seen them on mtggoldfish with 6-0 challenge finishes. My 2 losses to DNT were to pretty standard DNT losses, however i think me running 3 rending volleys (in fear of thalia and leovold) could have been maybe 2 rending volley and either another grapeshot, or if i just plan on boarding in another card it's entirely possible that it could be a kozilek's return. it's also possible a 2nd cave-in would be great here. i lost to a phyrexian revoker on my chandra in 2 of the 4 games that i lost.

my other loss to eureka show just feels like a pretty tough matchup. we are just racing, but they run counterspells and they win with a 3-4 mana spell. it's not impossible, but i'm not confident in that matchup. the blue decks felt fine, even without defense grids. loam was a bit tricky, but by force hit his chalice and rending volley killed his thalia/knight b/c of its non counter clause.

hazoret's was fine, it didn't do anything crazy. i think two is the right number, it can steal games and due to the randomness, it's usually a must counter for opponents. the big innovation in this testing was gamble. i was pretty skeptical of it at first, as i had tried it in much older versions, but it does feel good.

the other major change from the version where i went 2-3 and 1-4 was that i increased my lands from 14 to 16. this change really makes the deck viable.

if i were to make a change to the maindeck, i would probably cut 1 chandra (playing 2) for something else. i'm not sure what it would be at this time, but it would likely need to be a big impact spell.

here's the list:



4 burning wish
3 reforge the soul
2 hazoret's undying fury
3 chandra, torch of defiance
1 commune with lava
3 past in flames
2 empty the warrens
2 gamble
4 seething song
4 manamorphose
4 ruby medallion
4 rite of flame
4 simian spirit guide
4 lotus petal
12 mountain
4 ancient tomb

sb:
3 rending volley
3 scab-clan berserker
2 tormod's crypt
1 cave-in
1 by force
1 past in flames
1 empty the warrens
1 grapeshot
1 reforge the soul
1 tendrils of agony


suggestions for 1 chandra, and sb 1 rending volley?

Did we play today? I thought I was so dead game 1 but I slipped through with ports and a token just in time after an underwhelming hazoret's. Game 2 the berserker almost got there but I drew so much of my board that I was kind of lucky that game as well.

Fun deck!

I don't recall a game like that. Could. Be vieko or someone else playing the deck. The account I play on is called "saturn".