[Deck] 43 Lands

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by noobslayer

I've recently begun to think this deck could benefit against combo (mostly Solidarity) and control decks by using a set of Devastating Dreams in the board. The suggestion could be way out there. I also think a full set of Cabal Therapies should be in the board for the builds using black. I'd actually like to see someones take on a four color build of this deck.

---

I believe you are right about the addition of Therapy. The best way to do it is drop all the red spells and lands. This would disable a bit of the utility and search that red offers, but add black aggro into it. I would work something like this: (I'm only going to use the 43 deck primer because I LOVE the Batman utility-belt aspect of it....plus, i'm not too fond of using multiple colors).



SPELLS: 20
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
4 Life From The Loam

LANDS: 40
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Maze Of Ith
3 Mishras Factory
3 Nantuko Monestary
3 Savannah
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Treetop Village
2 Cabal Pit
1 Tabernacle At The Pendrell Vale
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Slippery Karst

Anyone have a board that beats belcher yet?

4 Oxidize could work. You'd have to aggressively mulligan for one, like you would Zuran Orbs for a burn deck.

If you are playing red, you can add Ancient Grudge.

How does artifact removal beat belcher... they activate the belcher in response and kill you most likely

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know

How does artifact removal beat belcher... they activate the belcher in response and kill you most likely

---

They aren't always capable of dropping the belcher and activating it on the same turn.

With instant speed removal you can always shoot a Lion's-Diamond when they put the next spell on the stack. This works if like, they needed to set up for an infernal tutor or burning wish.

In the black version I would play a single copy of Nether Spirit. It can also be "played" via Manabond and it has a high synergy with therapy.

I won't be able to test my Laom deck this week :(

I'm trying out Gamble instead of Mulch alongside Burning Wish. It's working retardedly well. I did about 10 tests and about 7 of the 10 games got the Manabond/Exploration with Loam in hand/graveyard by turn 1/2.
Mulch just came off as a 'win better' card that contributed to the combo ONLY when you have the combo going. Unless anyone can convince me otherwise. I'm going to gear mine more towards stronger combo execution.

Gamble is the NUTS topdeck right after a Manabond.

I'll give it some more test runs tomorrow. Still iffy on the maindeck Vesuva as I drew it 2 times in 10 games. As much as I LOVE more Ports and making it a 4th Treetop Village (both come into play tapped, so who cares). It's not bad, but I'm not too terribly impressed with it either. I think it's going to be one of those 'it NEEDS to be field tested against people that are not me'. So as of right now, it stays until proven crappy.
I'm at the conclusion that 4 Fetchlands are SUPER EXCESSIVE. When you get the Loam going off the chain, you end up picking it up one in the graveyard at least 2 more times just to get the bang for your buck and actually draw 3 lands.
I have NEVER played a deck where I DON'T REALLY want to be drawing fetchlands.

Also need to do tests with Horizon Canopy because Slippery Karst is plain garbage to me. Seriously, I draw it and wonder 'WTF IS THIS HERE FOR?!'. Amazingly, that 2 colorless to pay for it's cycling REALLY hurts. The deck seems like you need as much utility open as you get it. With Riftstone Portal and several ways of pulling (G), it's useless.
I'm going to try 2 Tranquil Thicket and 2 Horizon Canopy. I think Canopy can make Loam run a little more fluid.

I had taken out the Slippery Karsts because I couldn't see the point in it either. Then a random kid played a Blood Moon on me. You quickly realize you can't win maindecked, so you board in something like Ray of Revelation like I did. When he played it again, I was waiting and Rayed it away. Then he plays another right after it. I realize I can't search for a Nevy's Disc without green for the Thickets. Ray is turned off so I had to have disc and got screwed. The two colorless sucks until you get in situations like that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dahcmai

I had taken out the Slippery Karsts because I couldn't see the point in it either. Then a random kid played a Blood Moon on me. You quickly realize you can't win maindecked, so you board in something like Ray of Revelation like I did. When he played it again, I was waiting and Rayed it away. Then he plays another right after it. I realize I can't search for a Nevy's Disc without green for the Thickets. Ray is turned off so I had to have disc and got screwed. The two colorless sucks until you get in situations like that.

---

True, but with Burning Wish, you can side in Demonfire in case of Blood Moon. I was considering Landslide, but Hellbent w/ uncounterability and unavoidable = the nuts.

WHO PLAYS BLOOD MOON?

and if they are dont playa deck with all nonbasics !

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know

WHO PLAYS BLOOD MOON?

and if they are dont playa deck with all nonbasics !

---

I've seen blood moon played. There are those who are actually deathly afraid of Loam.

That's when you lay out Landslide. If all you have is mountains, send them right to their dome.

hello,

I would like to give a french version of 43lands :

- 2 Exploration
- 4 Manabond
- 2 Recoup
- 4 Gamble
- 3 Burning wish
- 3 Life from the loam

- 1 forgoten cave (Terrain)
- 2 barbarians ring (Terrain)
- 2 Wooded Foothills (Terrain)
- 3 Tranquil Thicket (Terrain)
- 2 Windswept Heath (Terrain)
- 4 Maze of Ith (Terrain)
- 3 Nantuko Monastry (Terrain)
- 4 Rishadan Port (Terrain)
- 1 Glacial chasm (Terrain)
- 3 Savannah (Terrain)
- 1 Secluded steppe (Terrain)
- 4 Taïga (Terrain)
- 4 wasteland (Terrain)
- 4 Mishra's factory (Terrain)
- 2 Treetop village (Terrain)
- 2 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale (Terrain légendaire)

sideboad :

- 4 Chalice of the void (Artefact)
- 1 Zuran Orb (Artefact)
- 3 Krosan grip (Ephémère)
- 1 Armaguedon (Rituel)
- 3 Pyroclasm (Rituel)
- 1 Devastating Dreams (Rituel)
- 1 Hull breach (Rituel)
- 1 Life from the loam (Rituel)

Gamble is really a very good card to search anything. Recoup offer the possibility to play again a burning wish. My own version play one mox diamond (for playing armaguedon) an a riftstone portal. Glacial chasm is a very good card against belcher. But, i recognise that combo decks are really too strong.

That's my two cents.

SPELLS: 17
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
4 Burning Wish
3 Life From The Loam
2 Gamble

LANDS: 43
4 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Maze Of Ith
4 Mishras Factory
3 Nantuko Monestary
3 Savannah
4 Tranquil Thicket
3 Treetop Village
2 Barbarian Ring
2 Tabernacle At The Pendrell Vale
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Vesuva

SIDEBOARD:
4 Angel's Grace (in case of Flash...plus, can't be countered)
4 Chalice Of The Void
3 Zuran Orb
1 Demonfire
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Life From The Loam
1 Wildfire

I lost all the games I played this weekend (I'm chalking it up to inexperience.). I went up against Threshhold and 9 Land Stompy. (3rd round was a bye. Might as well be a loss since I received no experience from it). Both experienced players. I don't believe I mulliganed enough, but I always went with hands that had pretty good potential. Here's what I got:

Burning Wish: EXCELLENT idea. Poor execution, this was mostly a dead card in hand
Gamble: FRIGGIN AWESOME IN THIS DECK
Glacial Chasm: Is a lifesaver. Whudathunkit for a 50 cent card.

Here's where blasphemy comes in:
Nantuko Monestary: I had a LOT of problems getting Threshhold. This was a dead card in play too, as I needed colored mana, not colorLESS...this is where Treetop village kicked Monestary in the nuts.

Vesuva: Call it gimmicky. But having that extra port or Maze of Ith HELPS. I'm confident to say that it's the equivalent of the lone Twincast maindecked in Solidarity: Not exactly the BEST draw you can get, but it'll definately do something cool when you use it.

I'm thinking of running 4 Roar Of The Wurms and some more Gambles. I believe this build was far too focused on acquiring combo pieces rather than just actually making an effort to combo off. I think the Wurms would make the deck more versatile. Either getting Loam off OR RotW. This would make Manabond that much more vital, but ah well.

I did some testing against TES, and let me say that Rishidan Port + Vesuva is the NUTS against it, they only need a couple mana sources open to go off, don't get me wrong. But they REALLY REALLY REALLY need those sources open. Plus, tapping City Of Brass with Port is FUNNY FUNNY stuff.

Yeah, lately I've been wondering if running White is really necessary for this deck. In my build, it's only good for Nantuko Monasteries, a single Karakas, and sideboard material. I'm considering dropping it, and go GR or GRB.

With Flash gone, does 43 land loam stand a chance in the Legacy format again? Or will it be overshadowed by Replenish/Pandeburst variants?

I believe it stands a chance. The deck's weakest match-up is combo, but a lot of people don't seem to be playing combo (looking at data pre-Flash). I think the deck would be a good option as you can beat aggro and control but have a worse combo match-up. Combo can at least be even I think if you splash black. I would not give up on this deck.

A little UP for this deck.

Quote:

---

hello,

I would like to give a french version of 43lands :

- 2 Exploration
- 4 Manabond
- 2 Recoup
- 4 Gamble
- 3 Burning wish
- 3 Life from the loam

- 1 forgoten cave (Terrain)
- 2 barbarians ring (Terrain)
- 2 Wooded Foothills (Terrain)
- 3 Tranquil Thicket (Terrain)
- 2 Windswept Heath (Terrain)
- 4 Maze of Ith (Terrain)
- 3 Nantuko Monastry (Terrain)
- 4 Rishadan Port (Terrain)
- 1 Glacial chasm (Terrain)
- 3 Savannah (Terrain)
- 1 Secluded steppe (Terrain)
- 4 Taïga (Terrain)
- 4 wasteland (Terrain)
- 4 Mishra's factory (Terrain)
- 2 Treetop village (Terrain)
- 2 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale (Terrain légendaire)

sideboad :

- 4 Chalice of the void (Artefact)
- 1 Zuran Orb (Artefact)
- 3 Krosan grip (Ephémère)
- 1 Armaguedon (Rituel)
- 3 Pyroclasm (Rituel)
- 1 Devastating Dreams (Rituel)
- 1 Hull breach (Rituel)
- 1 Life from the loam (Rituel)

Gamble is really a very good card to search anything. Recoup offer the possibility to play again a burning wish. My own version play one mox diamond (for playing armaguedon) an a riftstone portal. Glacial chasm is a very good card against belcher. But, i recognise that combo decks are really too strong.

That's my two cents.

---

It is me :).

The beginning base is an idea of Yamaelle with 4 gamble, 4 manabond, 2 exploration and recoup. I add burning wish (very good because the sideboard is not essential in this deck) and test a little the deck so I change a little the mana base (but all the deck is a mana base ^^).

That is my 43 (42 in reality) lands after udapte :

4 Manabond
2 Exploration
4 Gamble
3 Life from the loam
3 Burning wish
2 Recoup

4 taïga
3 savannah
3 wooded foothills
2 windswept heat

4 wasteland
4 rishadan port

4 mishra factory
3 treetop village
2 nantuko monastery

4 maze of Ith
2 The Tabernacle At pendrell vale
1 glacial chasm

4 tranquil thicket

2 barbarian ring

sideboad :

4 orim's chant
3 pyroclasm
3 krosian grip
1 zuran orb
1 devastating dreams
1 life from the loam
1 hull breach
1 obliterate

The problem of ristone portal is when you have in beginning hand he can't give to you a green or red mana for pay your first (and regulary lonely) spell. So you mulligan hand with it. And when you reveal it in mid-game he may be give to you 3 manas but it is too regulary an overkill. So I prefer add a fetchland. He give to you 3 lands in the five first turns.

One thing that seems like a good plan against combo is SBing the two additional Tabernacles. It's a card you'll want to bring in against Wasteland-aggro like Goblins too, but most importantly, being able to deal with Empty the Warrens makes life VERY hard for the dirty combo-player as he HAS to go off with Tendrils/Belcher, which results in a high possibility of fizzling and even lots of forced mulligans, which you can capitalize on with other hate like Chalice of the Void.

Of course, the deck would really love artifact hate to beat Pithing Needle, but it can't run Ancient Grudge, since the second most important threat is Chalice at 2, which Grudge unfortunately doesn't answer. Shattering Spree is too mana intensive to be any good, how about just simple Oxidize or something?

Engineered Explosives deals with Needle, Chalice, and Empty the Warrens. This deck can easily bring it up to three, and so on...

Engineered Explosives is good in the current meta.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eldariel

One thing that seems like a good plan against combo is SBing the two additional Tabernacles. It's a card you'll want to bring in against Wasteland-aggro like Goblins too, but most importantly, being able to deal with Empty the Warrens makes life VERY hard for the dirty combo-player as he HAS to go off with Tendrils/Belcher, which results in a high possibility of fizzling and even lots of forced mulligans, which you can capitalize on with other hate like Chalice of the Void.

---

I can see it in a theoric aspect but it is out of question I buy two others tabernacle for this deck.
Against ETW pyroclasm is a great solution too.
Goblin is a bye. Add more tabernacle because he have waste is not intelligent : I can't have two in play because it is legendary and with life from the loam tabernacle return in play the next turn. pyroclasm slow up goblin the necessary time for install the lock.
But in my last tournament I play against ichoride and I want a tabernacle and I don't find it so I loose. But it is the job of gamble.

Quote:

---

Of course, the deck would really love artifact hate to beat Pithing Needle, but it can't run Ancient Grudge, since the second most important threat is Chalice at 2, which Grudge unfortunately doesn't answer. Shattering Spree is too mana intensive to be any good, how about just simple Oxidize or something?

---

oxidize is not better than krosian grip : he can't destroy a problematic enchantement (pillar, confinement, counterbalance, aluren, survival), he can be countered, is not a sorcery (a bonus in this deck). I tutorise fastly my taiga so shattering is really better. The difference in CC is not important.

Quote:

---

Engineered Explosives deals with Needle, Chalice, and Empty the Warrens. This deck can easily bring it up to three, and so on...

Engineered Explosives is good in the current meta.

---

Yeah. Instead of krosian grip it is a great idea. Aluren and moat can't be destroy but it is probably better than krosan.

Allosaurus Rider

really

back to the shadow!

I couldn't explain why it is totally stupid, just look the deck and try to understand her functioning

Here's my sidboard. I play 43 lands a LOT. I just personally love any deck that beats the crap out of goblins on a regular basis. We have a few combo decks in the area with one guy playing them just about every tournament so I keep some goodies for him.


3 Aegis of Honor - We still have a few die hard Sligh players who insist the deck is still good. Well considering Price of Progress can mean game real quick-like for this deck I had to put these in. Handy for a few other random cards, but price is the main reason.

3 Children of Korlis - anti-Tendrils card. Delays the game enough to win. Makes combo a reasonable matchup. Solidarity isn't played anymore here so I don't worry about that one. Just let a few copies resolve, then gain a ton back. Usually no one will attempt it with one out much less two, but it's enough to stall out the game enough to swing in.

3 Pithing Needle - for annoying cards like Crypt and Withered Wrech. Wretch is a serious pain he's hard to deal with since he needs to be dealt with by Barbarian Ring and Threshold is a little hard to keep with him out. Crypt at least can be played around pretty easy.

3 Nevyrral's Disc - For Back to Basics and Blood Moon basically. there's not much use past that.

3 Chalice of the Void - Dedicated Extirpate hate. Handy for other stuff also, but Extirpating your loam is bad so I needed something, this is the best defense I came up with.

I haven't had a problem against much of anything else. I never saw the need for Armageddons or Zuran Orb's especially.

zuran orb is the best card fot the gain life. Polyvalent, put in 0 and pay 0 for active, gain more life if your opponant want make a double tendrill (because you put more land in play).

I have burning wish for all the graveyard hate.

I never see a BtB or a blood moon in a legacy table. And if a guy put one in play a day against me I accept the loose but keep 3 cards in sideboard only against that is useless.

But I have a wish sideboard so you can't compare mine side and your side.

Children of Korlis sounds interesting, but it is only good against Tendrils. I think Chalice is more flexible becuase you cans ide it against Burn, Threshold, Fish, Belcher and Solidarity too.

I agree that Zuran Orb is also very strong Anti Price of Progress tactic because you can sac the lands in response. But Aegis sounds also cool.

Aegis only requires you keep one mana open for price and that's pretty easy to do in this deck. It's also handy for random burn. As a side note, it actually can deflect Psionic blasts from Faerie stompy, it doesn't mention it has to be a red spell, just damage. I ran into that once. He was sure surprised to notice it after he shot himself for 6.

I never had a use for the Zuran Orbs because of the Shield. I guess that's why I don't use it.


The Chidren I agree is really narrow, but i needed something fast for the "nuts" draw TES can dish out. 1st turn kills aren't that hard to pull out of that deck and second turn is more likely. I needed a super fast answer other than "scoop". It was either that or Orim's chant. Both are pretty useful for the same purpose.

I tried Burning Wish, but it kept driving me nuts. I wanted to use it, but I'd have Manabond in the opening hand and would ditch it more often than not so I eventually tossed it. Crypt is really easy to play around and Extirpate is only used by Deadguy around here and that falls over and dies to 43 land even if you end up in topdeck mode.

Maybe it's just my luck, but that's how it works out up here. If I lose, it's to TES's speed every time.

I think its time to necro this thread up. This deck wrecks new forms of combo, nearly all forms of aggro control, and a majority of control decks. This deck also can easily pilot around most hate that is brought in against. In my list i dropped the red splash (seemed a little underwhelming) and added more tabernacles, mulches, and im currently testing out a singleton vesuva. Here is my list

44 Lands
Non-lands:
4 exploration
4 manabond
4 mulch
4 LFTL

Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Maze of ith
4 Rishadan port
2 Tabernacle
1 Vesuva
4 Tranquil thicket
2 Secluded steppe
4 Mishra's factory
3 Nantuko monastery
3 Treetop village
4 Savannah
4 Forest
4 fetches

Sideboard:
15 ______

The mainboard has been working extremely well for me. I have yet to lose a single game in any of my matches against aggro and against the new forms of combo (ichorid and breakfast... im pretty sure noone plays TES or belcher anymore) it does realy well against. Im pretty sure that this deck is easily strong enough to be moved to the established forum... and since i have mos of the cards for this deck i might just throw it together.

Is there any benefit in dropping red? The deck doesn't exactly fear Wasteland (as a minor note: ironically, the G/W version loses to Magus of the Moon outright whereas the 3c one doesn't), and at the very least being able to run >4 Life from the Loam (with Gamble or Wish, your choice) should be a good thing.

Dropping red is not an option. Gamble adds in this decks consistency. Also, Barbarian Ring is extremely good at finishing games. I do think a Forest should be added to the GenCon list in place of a savannah I think. Mulch has been underwhelming for me in the main, but there really isn't anything that could replace it. Mulch is still better than Burning Wish I think. Testing will reveal more, but that's my initial impression.

The sideboard needs the most work. I really haven't come to a consensus on what belongs and what doesn't. This is my most recent sideboard:

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Armageddon
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Ancient Grudge

The only new cards for me are Explosives and Grudges. Explosives, in theory, are awesome. However, Engineered Explosives, just doesn't have a positive effect on the game. The sideboard cards, in general, have to be proactive if possible. The obvious exception is crypt. Chalices are awesome, Geddons are necessary, and I loved the 2 Grudges...I will most likely make them three. However, I don't know what else to put in the sideboard.

I'm open to input. However, the maindeck is ridiculously tight.

Regards,

Ryan Trepanier

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by technogeek5000

I think its time to necro this thread up. This deck wrecks new forms of combo, nearly all forms of aggro control, and a majority of control decks.

---

Without a significant clock, can not combo just bypass EtW and hit Charbelcher/Tendrils to kill you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by etrigan

Without a significant clock, can not combo just bypass EtW and hit Charbelcher/Tendrils to kill you?

---

"New" form of combo is Ichroid and Cephalid Breakfast. Neither runs storm cards. If you talking about CRET Belcher or TES, yea, it will be trouble.

I recently decided to build this deck and actually managed to do so through my friends' constant shit-giving. At first I really loved it, but the more testing I did, the more times I would stall out after a great start (which makes complete logical sense. More games played = more bad games). I mean even after going land -> exploration -> land -> manabond -> drop 3 lands on the table. Then I proceed to draw really unhelpful lands / more manabonds or explorations for like 10 turns while my opponent lays some beats and kills me right through my nonrecurring manlands and mazes of ith. I found that I was winning only if...
a) I manascrewed my opponent with wasteland and port and was able to follow it up with manland beats,
b) I managed to get a sizable army of manlands on the table within the first 2 turns and outrace my opponent,
c) I got loam and all of its crazy shit online.

Perhaps it is my own fault that I keep hands which entice me with exploration + manabond without one of these plans ready, but I can't help thinking that there has to be an easier way to make the deck more consistent.

This train of thought of course led to me Burning Wish, which I have just started testing. Perhaps my assumptions are incorrect and will be proved thusly through testing, but Burning Wish seems to have tons of synergy in this deck. It can...
a) get loam if you don't have it already,
b) get mulch if you just need more lands on the table,
c) get gamble if you need a specific land aka maze of ith against breakfast,
d) get regrowth to grab any non-land card you may need from your graveyard aka exploration, manabond, and even mulch or gamble if the one from your board has already been used.

This card seems extremely powerful. My only other quarrels with this deck are the low # of tabernacles and the deck's vulnerability to graveyard hate. I will address the latter first. If an opponent can effectively institute graveyard hate (let's say leyline of the void), not be hindered by your mana disruption, and outclass your manland beats (which at this point consist only of 4 factories and 3 treetop villages) then you are pretty much screwed, and frankly, that isn't that hard of a thing to achieve. At that point you have no recuring land destruction, no recuring threats, no card advantage engine, and no real way of winning the game. Seems bad. How do we fight this? I cannot stress this weakness enough, especially with Breakfast, Ichorid, AND Threshold being major contenders in the format right now and therefore making graveyard hate in the sideboard a complete necessity. In terms of tabernacles, I think I would go up to 2 just to make them easier to find. We don't have crop rotation to insta-tutor them up, all we have is gamble (which will most likely be finding loam, and if it already has then you are probably winning anyways), therefore I think 2 coppies are justified in order to make it more consistently available in the matches that it shines.

WOW, that was a long post!

Kronicler

I think that you are correct in adding burning wish to the deck. In my meta I have been having a lot of problems with extirpate lately. Once they extirpate loam, it is pretty much game over for 43 lands.

I think the non-land cards in this deck should be

4 Exploration
4 Manabond
2 Gamble
3 Burning Wish
2 Life From The Loam
2 Mulch

This way you can

Gamble for burning wish or LFTL

Gambling for burning wish seems incredibly poor. If we are going to run burning wish, we should definately run 4, and considering the biggest reason to run it is to find loam, we should definately run 3 of those in the main too. So from your non-lands card list we need to -2 gamble or -2 mulch and +1 loam, +1 burning wish.

Kronicler

I am fairly confident Assassin's nonland configuration is close to optimal; the numbers on the red spells may be tweaked, but not anything else. For reference:

4 Manabond
2 Exploration
4 Gamble
3 Life from the loam
3 Burning wish
2 Recoup

- Exploration is almost pointless if you have Manabond. Its purpose is mostly as a backup; six Fastbond effects are enough to consistently see one in your opening hand.
- Gamble and Burning Wish are definitely warranted. The second gives you an out against Extirpate, which is otherwise a rout. The former is a Demonic Tutor, since for every time it grabs a LftL there are two when it just gets you the exact land you need (usually Chasm, Wasteland, or Maze)
- Recoup is great utility, giving an extra purpose to all that dredging and allowing Gamble to tutor for spells (such as postboard Pyroclasms).
- Mulch is subpar. It's a one-shot LftL that gets you 0-4 random lands, instead of the three you want: it's only a bit better on turn 2 when you have no lands in your graveyard and a Manabond in play. Otherwise, Gamble/Wish -> LftL is way better.

Actually 6 are NOT enough to consistently see them in your opening hand. 6/60 = 1/10. Your sample size is only 7, so there is a gap between sample size and probability.

Honestly, for speed purposes I find Exploration to be much stronger than Manabond due to its ability to allow you to use the lands you bring up right away, as opposed to have to wait until your turns end.

It is also much better in multiples.

Mulch is not as bad as you seem to think it is. It is often a draw 3 or draw 4 for just two mana, Life from the Loam takes more time to get where it needs to go.

Besides, Mulch is an outlet against Extirpate.

If you really don't like Mulch, I would suggest Devastating Dreams. It wipes the board, but thanks to your Gamble ---> LftL plus incredibly high land count makes recovery a snap.

I would try out:

4 Exploration
2 Manabond
3 Life from the Loam
2 Recoup
3 Burning Wish
3 Gamble

with Dreams in the Wishboard.

Edit: Honestly, I have never seen a need for Gamble/Burning Wish/Recoup/All this other stuff and still don't see much of one. You could argue for Gamble replacing Mulch, but outside of that I am not seeing a great difference, in test or out, except that now you have to be able to handle a robust amount of red and green, instead of just a splash.

how do you guys beat survival? i think armeggeddon helps but is there anything else? The main problem is that they have rofellos which makes info mana Survival to get magus of the moon and burning wish for ruination. The only way i can see it is possible to beat them is that they keep a bad hand mull to 4 or u wasteland them outso rofellos is useless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cait_Sith

Actually 6 are NOT enough to consistently see them in your opening hand. 6/60 = 1/10. Your sample size is only 7, so there is a gap between sample size and probability.

---

While that's true, I tend to mulligan aggressively with this deck, because with Loam online you end up getting 2/3 cards a turn fairly soon. Also I consider Turn 1 Gamble->Manabond a viable play, if I already have a LftL.

Quote:

---

Honestly, for speed purposes I find Exploration to be much stronger than Manabond due to its ability to allow you to use the lands you bring up right away, as opposed to have to wait until your turns end.

---

That could only matter if you were tight with mana to cast Wish and LftL. Manlands can't attack anyway, and Waste/Port/Maze/Tabernacle/Cycling lands

Quote:

---

It is also much better in multiples.

---

Manabond is much better in singleton.

Quote:

---

Mulch is not as bad as you seem to think it is. It is often a draw 3 or draw 4 for just two mana, Life from the Loam takes more time to get where it needs to go.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nihil

it's only a bit better on turn 2 when you have no lands in your graveyard and a Manabond in play

---

Quote:

---

Besides, Mulch is an outlet against Extirpate.

---

So is Burning Wish (+ Recoup, and Gamble to some extent).

Quote:

---

If you really don't like Mulch, I would suggest Devastating Dreams. It wipes the board, but thanks to your Gamble ---> LftL plus incredibly high land count makes recovery a snap.

---

I play it as a Wish target already ;)

Quote:

---

Edit: Honestly, I have never seen a need for Gamble/Burning Wish/Recoup/All this other stuff and still don't see much of one. You could argue for Gamble replacing Mulch, but outside of that I am not seeing a great difference, in test or out, except that now you have to be able to handle a robust amount of red and green, instead of just a splash.

---

Well, I see a ton more consistency with those cards. My games all play out basically the same way - fetch LftL somehow, hold off their mana and/or their attackers, win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know

how do you guys beat survival?

---

They have shitty mana bases. Hit those. Game 1 you have Wasteland, Tabernacle (shuts down Birds) and Port, but Game 2 you can bring in Pyroclasms for some real pain.

Quote:

---

The main problem is that they have rofellos which makes info mana

---

It dies to Clasm, and it doesn't make infi mana if their Forests (almost all of them nonbasic) get Wastelanded.

Quote:

---

Survival to get magus of the moon

---

Dies to Pyroclasm.

Quote:

---

and burning wish for ruination

---

Ruination is seven mana.