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i havent encountered burn decks on any mayor occasion, and neither on a large scale, yeah its not a good matchup but you can race them often. i dont see the need to change the deck thats working so nicely for a deck that barely represents itself in major numbers in tournaments.
I haven't tested, but I'd see any decks with many amounts of burn (Sligh and even Boros) to be able to crush this deck. Maybe this deserves a decent amount of sideboard cards, depending on the meta. And I don't really think this deck can often outrace a burn deck.
I played against Stax recently and I had to include Angel of Despair to be able to get rid of extremely annoying permanents (it may cost 7 life, but it's better than to cost you the game). In this kind of MU, you have enough time to cast an Intuition and search for it and, if there are no discard outlets on the board at that time, Gigapede would come handy -- in fact, it does for any 1-of crits that are essential to your play when getting them off an Intuition --, be it because of a Needle or for the simple fact of not having PImp or Prowler alive.
Rebuild seemed essential on the SB. Chalice at 1 + Chalice at 2 completely crush your game. For the same reason, Necromancy deserves to be looked at as a SB card. It works well with CIP stuff that can be reanimated again later for a doubled effect, as with Angel of Despair. It also dodges CB.
Finally, Tombstalker as an alternate win condition is totally awsome.
burn decks that rely on their creatures like boros will often be overwhelmed by this deck. as those dont kill as fast. and its very hard for them to waste 2-4 burn spells to kill one of your critters that just come back. haven't tested much, i have played against a couple, but nothing more than just fun games. ill make sure to do some thorough testing wih boros decks.
Kiddie burn on the other hand is a bad matchup, yet people dont play it as often and therefore its not really considered in the sideboard in my case. if you do have alot of them in your meta add chill, or blue elemental blasts to your board and done deal.
and if you fear chalice, then run rebuild, yet ive to encounter a deck that has locked me out that easy. and stax decks are about even. it all depends on who goes first and what gets played.
dont play the angel. hes not that good except for those random matchups that you most likely will win regardless of him showing up.
also gigapede is BAD! please... read the opening post.
What about Ghosts of the Innocent against burn...?
I did read, but I felt it was necessary against Stax.Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgon666
@ Ghosts of the Innocent: Imagine this scenario, which is the common burn with reanimation scenario: You have taken damage from fetch lands (0-2 dmg) and may now be using a Reanimate to bring Ghost back (0 or 7 dmg). If you are on the play, you've taken one turn of damage (3 dmg); if you are on the draw, you've taken 2 turns of damage (7-9 dmg). Add all this up: on the play, 3-12 dmg; on the draw, 7-18 dmg.
So, if you bring Ghost with Reanimate and you are on the draw, you are already dead anyway. Still, there are 8 revive spells that will get it on turn 2. With any of them, it might be a nice reanimation spell. The big problem is you won't be able to fetch it, so you'll have to play it as a 4-of, which sucks. To win the race, you'll need to revive another creature, as they will draw around 2 points of damage per turn, but they are way ahead. Again, you can't use Reanimate.
Maybe it's not worth the effort to try and push too hard to win against a single deck, unless it's the deck to beat in one meta.
exactly. unless your meta is full of burn ( in which case i would just switch out some critters like the bringer and some others for a full set of phanthom nishobas. and then i bet you you wont loose anymore. or at least a lot less.
he is really the only answer to burn, and you already have him to be fetched.
also reanimate is only 1/3 of your reanimation suite, so i wouldnt worry too much about the life loss.
For the burn matchup: Maybe Arbiter of Knollridge can do the job. It is 1 turn faster, than Nishoba, concerning the life gain. Though I dont know if it is really good enough.
no trample means that he will be chum blocked all day. by little things like mogg fanatic, and in boros decks by isamaru and some knights... and against most decks youll be the one with the higher life total, and you dont want to be ever in a position where you have to ask yourself if you want to bring the creature out or not... it should almost always be a hell yeah.
...how is he a turn faster than nishoba?
I had some major success with a re-animator build last year (came in 4th at KDLD III). Check out this thread for reference:
The Polar Express
No matter how you slice it, a well timed Extirpate will hurt. So will a Tormod's Crypt. You must have the necessary tools in order to protect yourself from opposing hate games 2 and 3. Take some of those ideals and apply them to your strategy. The idea is to hit them for as much as possible, as soon as possible. So a 24/24 trampler turn one is about as good as you're going to get.
Edit: Make that a 26/26 hasty trampler turn one.
I'll be condisering for a full set of nishobas. Seriosly, they are one the best creatures ever printed. To argument that statement, I would like to sum up some vital importances:
1. Lifelink. This is probably your only way to race a slowly set up tendrils combo deck, a fast aggro deck or burn.
2. Trample. Holy moly, this is just awesome! Even though it becomes 6/6 after combat, It's still nice to kill goyfyboy and inflict even more damage.
3. Pseudo indestuctible. This is the best ability, IMO. The fact that it doesn't die to cookie enourmous creatures, some extremely overpowered burn spell, or some other effect that would have killed any other creature is a huge plus.
The only thing most enourmous dudes miss are pro white or am I missing something?
True, additional 3 phantom nishoba's in the board will be good for burn or superfast aggro.
What are the latest lists that we have for this deck?
just thinking, has tolarian winds been tried in this deck? I think it would be really good!
non selectively discarding your hand is bad, ive tested with it. it not that good.
I've been testing this deck on MWS and I think that chain of vapors is better than repeal. simply because if I have a recursion spell in my hand (which is semi-common) I can use chain vapor on my hellkite, or my nishoba. Then discard those cards and exhume them back into play, which clears some creatures and refreshes nishoba counters. also you can target your own imp and sac land to get rid of a leyline turn 2, and your opponent most likely cant play it before you get a fatty out.
When this deck was posted in the other forum, I tossed in the idea of Blazing Archon MD as an auto win preboard vs Ichorid. It was aptly noted that that is true, but it is supbar in other matchups. I tend to agree.
However, today I noticed that Blazing Archon is an auto win vs Dragon Stompy pre and postboard. This leads me back to the potential single copy of Archon as it randomally becomes very relevant against certain decks.
Chain of vapor is an awfully limited card. It will only work when you target your own permanent or when you have no revived crits on the table. Even if the idea is to bounce a crypt, it would limit itself solely to these situations.
If you want to recur things, then just use another bounce spell. There are so many to choose from that won't ruin your day.
chain vapors as a side board option is not that bad if you have a lot of black in your metagame... but i would only put it there IF! and only if your cluttered with decks with leyline of the void. the card itself as described before is good but very situational. its affected by counterbalance on a bigger scale than repeal and it doesnt net you a card. it is true that you might be able to get some extra use from your critters, and plays like this.
i play exhume...
i crypt you...
i chain vapors my dragon to my hand after the resolution of your crypt and before the exhume resolves..
i discard it to an Pimp/oonas prowler..
let exhume resolve take 5 more to the face.
but other that those very awesome situations it will most likely end up bouncing your critter from your opponents bouncing the spell back to ya.
once you have a creature out youll never want to bounce a spell an opponent plays. well almost never...
With a GOD Hand:Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Ex: opening hand: 4 (R 3 damage) 1 POP (for 4) 2 mountain
turn one: mountain, bolt
life total: 17
turn two: (draw fireblast) mountain, bolt, lava spike
life total: 11
turn three: (draw mountain) mountain, chain lightning, PoP, fireblast
life total: 0
nice hand, idiot.
More often, burn kills on turn 4, and turn 5s much, much more frequently than turn 3s, even on the draw.
If you can get a nishoba turn three vs burn, you should be fine. Forcing/dazing a spell like fireblast will likely buy you enough time as well, as even with the above situation, your opponent would have to topdeck a (r for 3 damage if you forced, two if you dazed) spell against you if you countered price or fireblast. As they DO run 30-33% lands, and their avg CMC is like 1.6, it is likely if the GOD hand had its fireblast countered, you'd still live until turn 4-7.
The thing is we don't use counters in this deck. Not in the "main" or "most used" version that is discussed here. Also, you can't use Reanimate against burn or you stand no chance.
my apologies, i was mainly just refuting the claim of the consistent turn 3-4 burn kill.
Whats the plan against countertop-goyf decks?
Cry.
It's Chalice at one and two, for almost all intents and purposes. It has already been admited that the deck rolls to chalice at one and two, which is unlikely, I will readilly conceede, but assembling the counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top engine is actually quite likely.
The deck could always change the sideboard to Wipe Away and Annul. I've done that.Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
Or maybe pack some Necromancy SB against Chalice and CB. Also, Tombstalker increases the chance of beating these decks. It is a very solid alternate win condition.
people.... necromancy sucks... for the fourth time...
you dont have that bad of a matchup against goyf or counterbalance decks. and if your that worried just add more repeals and wipeaways.
I was building a reanimation deck and using yours as a skeleton, but I really wanted to have 2 or more akroma.. and I saw this post of yours as one of the reasons not to include her as a 2 of.
:she cant be brought back with 1/3 of your reanimation suite, animate dead and her are a no go once again.
So I was being hard headed and went to check on the rulings at starcitygames.
Q: Akroma, Angel of Wrath is in the graveyard. I cast Animate Dead. What happens? I've been told two things: that Akroma will remain in play without the Animate Dead, and that she will go to the graveyard. I've also been told that one of these rulings is old and was changed. Which is correct now?
A: Here is how it currently works. Animate Dead resolves and comes into play. When it does, its comes-into-play ability triggers. You target Akroma with this triggered ability. When this triggered ability resolves, Akroma is put into play and Animate Dead become an Aura. It will try attach itself to Akroma, but will not, due to Akroma's protection from black ability. Then, because it is not attached to anything, this Aura will go to the graveyard, but Akroma will remain in play.
It is true that this is not how this interaction has always worked. The rules that govern what an Aura can be attached to were tweaked last summer when the Aura subtype was introduced. In the past, local enchantments could become attached to a protected permanent; now they cannot become attached at all.
Just a thought
This ruling is out of date. From the Gatherer updates on Animate Dead:Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
Quote:
If the creature card put into play has Protection from Black (or a similar effect that prevents Animate Dead from legally being attached), then it will fail to become attached and it as per Rule 212.4k, which states that an Aura trying to move onto an illegal permanent will stay where it is. Then the Animate Dead will go to the graveyard as an Aura that is not enchanting anything. This will sacrifice the creature as well, as stated by the card text. [D'Angelo 2007/10/20]
Very out of date, you can exhume, or reanimate her, or if you really want to use animate dead on her stifle the sac'ing part and you can do it
hahaha, using a stifle on that would be bad too...
hahahaha
seeing as this is yet another page in the books of this thread ill post up my latest list.
Rod's Reanimator
by Rodrigo Gonzalez
61 cards.
Spells:
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
4x Careful Study
2x Intuition
3x Brainstorm
2x Repeal
Enchantments
4x Animate Dead
Creatures:
4x Putrid Imp
4x Oona's Prowler
4x Bogardan Hellkite
1x Simic Sky Swallower
2x Sundering Titan
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Phantom Nishoba
1x Bringer of the Blue dawn
1x Tombstalker
Lands:
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
5x Swamp
1x Island
Sideboard
3x umezawas jitte/ tombstalker/wipeaway
1x Repeal
4x Echoing truth
4x Stifle
3x Show and tell
Just edit the opening post, it's easier IMO.
And that 61st card...
I don't know if you have to make it 61 cards, but it's just so strange and awkward. Can't you cut i.e. a brainstorm? It has literally nothing to do with the reanimation plan anyway :)
Other than that, it's a good deck for sure. What I'd like to see is more protection and some better creatures :P But that's up to you, I don't play the deck...
Why only 1 Tombstalker? You can always cast one from hand if you need to... I think you should raise that to 2 or something.
the reason theres only 1 is because you never want to see more than one in your opening hand. i mean you could always reanimate one, yet most of the time his advantage is to play him form hand, and its not likely that youll get 12+ cards in your yard early on in the game to count.
61 cards is my preference and has worked out for me, i consider it more of a lucky streak charm.
but dont cut a brainstorm for it, cut the watery grave. brainstorm is good specially with 8 fetchands to shuffle what you dont need.
i would recommend taking out the therapies for 2 more fatties.
specially including sundering titans to the mix.
with only 9 critters youll often find yourself fetching very deep until you get one, cutting an oonas prowler hurts your secondary win conditions.
so -2 therapies and + 2 critters, at least one of them being the sundering titan.
and isnt that an awfully large SB?
24 cards?....
Another tourney tonight, im going to run the decklist i last posted. ill post up a tourney report ASAP.
After 5 rounds of swiss today I have learned one thing about this deck. Sundering titan is not that good except against 3 or 4 color decks. I never once found him to be very effectice against anything really. THough he was a nice roadblock for all the goyf and crushers I had to deal with. For refernce I use Rodgon666's most recently posted list minus the watery grave and i swaped the bringer for a furry Akroma to a rather splendid effect. I found red akroma to be better in testing on MWS in comparison to the bringer mainly because it either tended to bite the bullet almost immediately or simply sat back giving me cards that would have been unneeded if it had been something else. The major boon of FAkroma is the abundance of swords running around here.
I lost one round the whole day and that was due to horrid luck on my part and my oppoent have triple sinkhole on the play game one and me not drawing a card and him going swamp rit sinkholeing my island and then thoughtseize ripping out my study after seeing that i had an island in hand and no swamp in hand thus cutting off my other discard enablers. I didnt play the study turn one due to no fattys in hand but instead an army of prowlers which i had thought would fight to the bitter end but they never showed up. In hindsight knowing he was playing essentially a green variant of deadguy for goyf I shoulda prolly mulled but...
In hindsight maybe i shoulda studied turn one instead but then again he woulda sunk my island and ripped out one of the 2 exhumes i woulda drawn in all likely (the exhumes were my next two draws as i got the shit kicked outa me followed by an animate dead at which point i concedded).
Sundering was cool when i used him... but he just really didn't seem to be that productive.Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgon666
The SB is combined, for cereal tourneys, it will probably look like,
SB: 1 Oona's Prowler
SB: 1 Repeal
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 3 Stifle
SB: 3 Show and Tell
SB: 4 Annul
For fun:
SB: 1 Oona's Prowler
SB: 1 Repeal
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 4 Stifle
SB: 3 Echoing Truths
SB: 3 Layline of the Void
Still working on it =/
Next tourney is the 23rd
Instead of the Red Akroma, I much rather use another Simic Sky Swallower or a Quicksilver Dragon.
Let's hope that shadowmoor gives reanimator some more goodies =]
I don't know if this would work, it says "when you play" so I think it needs to be casted from your hand to get the special ability other than reanimating it...
Looks bad ass though...
http://www.germagic.de/news/demigod_rev.jpg
That won't work. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but reanimating creatures means "putting them into play" as opposed to "playing" them. I'm lovin' the B/R split cc Avatars, though. Play an Avatar of Discord, toss a couple o' these, play a third (This is nonsense as it would never fuckin' happen)...But you could Intuition for them, get one, toss 2, play it and have 3x 5/4 Flying Hasters that are out of smother range? Since with haste, that's a pretty likely 15 damage, and one turn to pull off a wrath/Damnation , on what, turn 4 with accel.? Not bad...
Anyway, I'm curious as to why this deck doesn't run countermagic? Blue and no FoW's, dazes, or anything? I saw some Annuls in a board, but other than that...It would seem like you would want to. Protection, graveyard hate, etc. Do you scoop to Ensnaring Bridge game 1 and count on bounce for games 2/3? Same with Humility? how do you get around Chalice at 1/2? Your bounce cardsa are 1 and 2 cc when it comes to bouncing CotV's. Why isn't Wipe Away played instead?
I'm sure these have been tested/suggested/questioned, I'm just curious.
pce.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
True about the demigod of revenge =[ but if it was otherwise, it would surely be kickass! hehe...
About the countermagic not being present in this deck, according to the pioneer of this deck, this is designed to be an aggressive deck. reanimator should be the one doing the harassing, not defending nor protecting (well there are some key sideboard cards depending on the meta ahehe). I agree on the aggressive approach and putting maindeck countermagic to this deck
will somehow make this deck slower...
But still... it is a fun deck to play with =]