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Quoted for truth. There seems to be the conviction among some o da peeps on this thread that loosng to storm with this dec has something to do with lacking playskill. I for my part am convinced it only has to do with lacking Counterbalnce/Top skill in the first 10 or so cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Well, I am not afraid of combo (my metagame prediction), but today I got stomped 5-1 by friend's RGb Goyf Stompy with maindecked Price of Progress and few Fireblasts. Counterbalance is too slow, Pernicious Deed .. well ... almost too. PoP deals me 6 at least each time, Fireblast can't be stopped by CB. Goyf, Confidant and Lavamancer are very dangerous even alone, and I am running out of removal if trying to kill each of them. And the deck can come out of gates so quick that I can't even remotely match its speed.
Honestly I was surprised, I didn't expect this matchup to be so bad. Maybe I was just unlucky... and to mention he sideboards 4x Blood Moon - geez.
So, because I expect field full of aggressive decks I switched maindeck Counterspells for Spell Snares. I was trying out a single Kitchen Finks but it was terribly underperforming. I have no way to sacrifice it, so in the late game he is just a sitting duck that gains poor 2 life. And to Intuition tutor him, it costs 3(Intuition)+2(LftL)+3(Volrath's Stronghold)+3(Kitchen Finks itself)+draw. 11 mana and a draw is probably too steep price to gain 2 life :D There will be Shriekmaw in his place, it's better.
Sideboard so far looks like:
quite sure:
4x Hydroblast
3x Engineered Plague
3x Krosan Grip
still in testing phase:
2x Threads of Disloyalty
3x Leyline of the Void (sorry lego army man, no more room)
in contention:
Extirpate
Thoughtseize
Stifle
So to sum up my SBing plan:
Ichorid +3 Leyline +3EPlague. -4 CB -2 almost anything(spell snare?)
Goblins +4 Hydroblast + 3EPlague -4 CB -3 Spell Snare
RG beats variants (not loam) +4 Hydroblast +2 Threads -3 Intuition (no time for cute tricks) -2 EE -1 Witness (well, I dont like removing EE for Threads. Feels like wasted SB space. Still Threads are there mostly because of this matchup. Anyone has better idea?)
Dragon Stompy +4 Hydroblast +3 Krosan Grip -4 CB -3 Spell Snare ... and pray :D
Treshol_d +3 Grip +2 Threads -2 Vedalken Shackles -3 ??? (I can't find card to remove -_- - StP seems to be a most likely candidate, as I am replacing it with Threads and I already have enough removal for Tresholds 12 creatures)
Landstill +3 Krosan Grip -1 Shriekmaw -2 Vedalken Shackles
How good are Vedalken Shackles? They seemed too slow in almost every game I played. I know that they are great against Goblins, but shouldnt 7 SB cards be enough? I will certainly have to think about it, there are still 2 days left :)
Quoted for absolute truth! If you don't run Swords your MU preboard is terrible! And that is if you DON'T lose the die rollQuote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
I play both of them:Quote:
Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund
3 Grip
4 BEB
4 Plague
4 Extirpate
Plagues are really flexible and additionally give you a better Combo MU postboard (be it Storm Combo, Ichorid or Cephalide Breakfast).
Well I did have a ton to type out to show that you obviously havn't played a blue deck against a good combo player yet but....... Bryant Cook beat me to it. He said it quick and short and 100% true. And to add more to it playing blue and black, you can actually slow down ichorid, soo you don't have to have 4 for it all the time, learn to play ichorid and learn how to slow it down and if you don't have it in opening hand just learn to stall till you get it or just counter the dread return and drop a deed, its actually not that hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man
Spare parts, I also have problems with a boros deck like yours but It was because of the fact that both games I got a balance out and didn't get a top and got really unlucky, For you to win this matchup, you have to win with countertop, theres also some cool tricks to pull off if you need it like putting a goyf on top with stronghold to counter a helix, swords your own goyf to gain life, being at 4 life, stealing their confidant then swordsing it to gain life, There are many tricks to get around the burn, but you win this matchup with countertop plain and simple.( oh and don't take out shackles, its way to good if played right.)
Since people seem to be dredding this matchup soooooo much, I think we should talk about the stax/dragon stompy matchup, What in those decks are sooo horrible that you can't stop??? the only thing in stax is well smokestacks because it costs 4 and you can't counterbalance that, this deck has a high amount of 3 mana costers, which makes you life very easy against those, granite its nice to have a force for those first turn trinispheres but if you can get countertop out you should win the game. It worked for me really well on wednesday.
Yes you can slow them down, but deed doesn't do shit against ichorids, who are just going to give them more tokens... not to mention, a good ichorid player will get rid of your entire hand before trying to dread return (unless they go for broke), they'll at least hit all your countermagaic so they can kill you that turn... and don't you are say CB, if you are wasting time setting that up, you are going to loose to ichorid anyways.Quote:
And to add more to it playing blue and black, you can actually slow down ichorid, soo you don't have to have 4 for it all the time, learn to play ichorid and learn how to slow it down and if you don't have it in opening hand just learn to stall till you get it or just counter the dread return and drop a deed, its actually not that hard.
Isn't this a compelling reason not to cut Meddling Mage?Quote:
Originally Posted by landstill101
Well now I didn't say that I would try to get counterbalance out, that is worthless, I'm talking about countering first turn breakthrough, countering the dread return, swords the ichorids, that is the way to slow them, I didn't say it would win, just slow them. If you swords ichorid, they have to kill you with tokens which Die to deed everytime. Your Message is saying that I sit back and only counter returns, I meant to counter early stuff to stop the first/ second turn kill to hopefully drop a deed on turn 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefreakaccident
Nydaeli, A good Tes player knows how to get around it and if they need to they run pyroclasm side for wish. Plus when you play mage, next turn they go off because you don't have mana to counter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spirit of the wretch
Pardon me, but this seems like exceptionally weak reasoning. If I've done the math correctly (and I may not have), it looks like you have a 34% chance of having an opening hand capable of casting StP (so... StP plus a Tundra or fetchland). Your chance of drawing StP, of course, is 40%--but without white mana, that's irrelevant. With only two white-producing lands, that means that your most important piece of removal, as you call it, is easily nullified with Wasteland or Port, depending on the Goblins build. This means that as the game goes on, your ability to cast StP with only two Tundras is going to get much worse. Perhaps those odds present a reasonable risk--you're better players than I, so you tell me. Personally, they aren't odds that I'm comfortable with when it's a card choice that has significant ramifications for the deck (in terms of the manabase and consistency, especially in the face of attrition).
I have no doubt that some sort of one-drop is necessary for the deck to do well vs. Goblins. Likewise, I have no doubt that removal is essential. That's not at issue. The point that I would like to raise--that I tried to raise earlier--is simply whether Swords to Plowshares is really the best use of that slot, given the other in-colour options (as one-drops, Vendetta, Ghastly Demise, and Pongify are the only real options that I can think of, and each has its own limitations. Deathmark too, I suppose, for what it's worth--which isn't much. Hell, if Lackey was your sole concern, REB would even work). Granted, each of those has strict limitations that Swords does not have. On the other hand, they put far less strain on the manabase, which means your odds of being able to cast them turn one (depending on the card... Ghastly Demise suffers from similar limitations turn one) go up. Alternately, perhaps some other form of turn one answer should be considered (Nimble Mongoose springs to mind as a possibility, sure, but there are others).
Essentially, I do not feel that the Goblins matchup presents an adequate reason on its own for the inclusion of StP over and above other forms of removal/answers, and I would like to know if other options have been considered in its stead and, if so, what the results were. It's entirely possible that StP's lack of inherent limitations makes it the best choice--what I want to know is if it really is the best.
As for Genesis, the most compelling argument I've seen you guys make against him is Stronghold's synergy with Counterbalance. That's not to be ignored, and I'd like to thank you for pointing it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaswerfraiejen
To start this off, I'm not gonna talk too much about the goblin matchup, mainly because the 4 tournies I have played this in, I have not played a single goblin player before, but as a experienced threshold and landstill player, a sturdy first turn answer to lackey is needed. If lackey lands and gets a good drop, a goblin player can kill you by turn 3 and average turn 4-5 which if they went first, you don't have time to drop a deed to blow and 1 tarmogoyf at this point is worthless with the new cards ran in goblins(the first strike goblin and the edict) having 1 tarmogoyf is not enough anymore, but I do know is that if you can get out shackles and have decent life you have the game pretty wrapped up, shackles combined with everything else is just as good as 2 plagues out.
Now after finishing a 25 man tourny and taking first, with the 4c list(with some tweaks of my own) I took down, white threshold, 2 different dark boros decks, a strange bounce land deck, belcher(twice), Rock, astral slide. After going 3-1-1 in tourny(losing to belcher and tieing rock) go into playoffs and win it all no prob. I really don't think this decks has to worry about the manabase, it doesn't matter if you have 3 different duals or 3 of the same, you can still use intuition to get the loam engine going to help smooth things out. All that matters is to get to 3 mana, it doesn't matter what 3, it just needs 3. And having a 4c build or 3c it doesn't make a difference.
Stp is an autoinclusion, not just because of the goblin matchup, but against ANY CREATURE IN THE FORMAT(cept goose of course), this is def. worth it just to add the best spot removal, also it helps with the explosives.
The one thing I have decided is that this deck does wonders with tog, tog is almost an auto inclusion too, its really amazing how much damage you can do with a tog, loam, and a top: it has won me many matches.
Also don't forget that the acadamy ruins does the 1cc for you, so that gives you 1-3cc for counterbalance.
Actually since I'm typing alot as it is, I would just like to explain a situation I used to counter a helix that should have killed me. I had countertop out, with like 4 mana, he plays helix to kill me, I top and see a land, deed, brainstorm. I draw the brainstorm and play it, for the first draw, I dredged life from the loam instead, dredged the top 3, drew 2 more then put back the loam on top to counter the helix which won me the game. The guy looked at me and just scooped.( he was at 8 life with me having a tog on table)
Well thats all for today, this deck is the best deck for my format right now and will be playing for a long time, hope to see everyone else do just as well.
I think you got me wrong here. I wasn't arguing pro StoP (I don't play white in my build and still think it's the better option in my metagame), I argued pro Plagues/BEB in the sideboard, as you probably need to win the two games postboard against Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goaswerfraiejen
I took "It's the Fear" to the local tournament (22 players, part of the national PoY series) yesterday and split the finals with Welder Painter, I lost only two games against B/w Pikula Homebrew in which I got terribly manascrewed and mulliganed a lot. I won the rest of the matches 2-0, even against 43land.dec in the quarterfinals but I have to admit it was pretty hard to win against. Today I'm judging national qualifiers but well I may write a short tourney report and my deck analysis to show changes to the decklist I made etc.
This deck works pretty well, but it needs a good player to start with. And Landstill101, I made the same play with Brainstorm into dredging LftL into putting it on top into CB countering a spell yesterday, my opponent was looking pretty hopeless at that point :laugh:
Hey guys.
This thread is...well, not worth reading through. So I'll post my thoughts and if I say things that have already been mentioned, sorry.
Me and 2 friends tested this deck out on Friday night for a few hours. We played this build:
8 Fetch
4 Trop
3 Tundra
3 Sea
1 Island
1 Stronghold
1 Ruins
4 Goyf
1 Eternal Witness
4 Brainstorm
3 Top
4 CBalance
3 Counterspell
4 FoW
4 Intuition
3 Deed
2 EE
2 Shackles
1 Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares
Exactly Gearheart's list on the first page. We played about 10 games against Thrash, preboard.
Here's what I noticed.
What the hell is up with Counterbalance and this decks curve? You almost never blind hit off CB. Let's check the number of cards in this deck that suck with Balance.
2 Shackles
3 Deed
4 Intuition
1 Eternal Witness
2 EE
21 Lands
That's...half the deck. Yeah. Basically, Counterbalance sucks in this deck without top in play. That shouldn't be.
Deed is incredibly clunky in this deck. EE is usually better, and Deed can almost never come down fast enough to get the job done.
Shackles is really strong, like usual.
Also, what's up with LftL and no draw engine? This deck literally cannot develop card advantage, which is going to hurt you in a lot of MUs.
With those thoughts in mind, we cut from the original list:
3 Deed
1 Intuition
1 Shackles
and ended up with this list:
8 Fetch
4 Trop
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Stronghold
1 Ruins
1 Lonely Sandbar
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Top
4 Counterbalance
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Intuition
1 Shackles
2 EE
1 Loam
This list can much more consistently abuse Counterbalance and still has a very strong Intuition plan later in the game. Hierarch is a good target against aggro, since recurring it with Stronghold is downright nutty.
This list was very strong in testing, however, it often felt like a crappy version of Black Thresh.
I'm just not sure ITF is where it's at right now.
Comments?
Mental, I'm not exactly sure that your reasoning is correct. I do agree that blind CB chances are not exactly bright, but I don't think that adding Ponder will affect them somehow drastically. Ponder is still only a sorcery speed cantrip, thus making your opponents able to outmaneuver CB effects.
Now to my tiny report, excuse my poor English.
My deck:
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness
Spells
2 Hoofprints of the Stag
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard:
2 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
4 Hydroblast
2 Threads of Disloyalty
I cut the Counterspells as they were always turn too slow, added Spell Snares instead and replaced missing 2cc cards in the deck with Hoofprints of the Stag.
As to cutting Vedalken Shackles and not cutting any Pernicious Deeds, I know that Shackles tend to be far better in the late game. I AM the late game. If i get there. But first, I need to make it there, and that's where Pernicious Deed really shines. That's why I need to keep all Deeds in the deck, to make sure I get there.
Also, always think when dropping CB during the 2nd turn - what are the chances that I will have to use the Deed first, and CB staying blind and/or destroyed?
Short report from the tournament:
1st round: Bw Deadguy Ale
I kept 2 land hand and never drew any other, while getting slaughtered by flurry of Wastelands, Sinkholes etc. 2nd game I mulliganed to 5 in attempt to have more than 1 land in the opening hand, and I failed. Bad luck.
2nd round: Ug madness
Although it may look easy, it's a pretty hard matchup actually. Madness has 4cc and 5cc cards (Deep Analysis, Roar of the Wurm, Arrogant Wurm) and Wonder nullifies any attempts on blocking with a goyf.
In the first game I didnt allow any discard outlet to stick, even though I had to Intuition for 3x Spell Snare to do so. 2nd game was close, with him having Wonder and attacking for 5 with Rootwalla and Mishra through my CB+Top, which eventually got destroyed by double Krosan Grip. I drew Deed to stop the bleeding and my goyf was in the meantime working on his life total. Then we traded the board (his aquamoeba + wurm vs. mine goyf), I topdecked SDT -> shriekmaw and bited his last 3 life off.
3rd round: Ub Fish-like-faerie-something
Something like Faerie Stompy, equipments + bitterblossom = bad times. I won 1st game thanks to double FoWing his creatures, and 2nd game thanks to resolved Plague naming faeries. Splash damage rules.
4th round: Rifter
Pretty easy, nothing to say. I had to stop Boil second game, and Abeyance which I did with already mentioned play Brainstorm -> dredge LftL -> put it on the top -> reveal with CB.
5th round: ID
quarterfinals: 43land.dec
Now that's where the real fun begins. 1st game I played it totally tight and had to make absolutely no mistake, at 8 life I started racing his Mishra with my goyf. He had Exploration, LftL and 3x Wasteland in the GY against my nonbasic manabase, but I still managed to make it on the wings of SDT and Intuition->LftL.
2nd game I sideboarded in graveyard hate (splash damage ftw!) + krosan grips and won it pretty handily, as i drew 2 stp for his 2 treetop village, extirpate for his LftL, FoW for his Crucible and he drew no Wasteland.
semifinals: the same Bw Deadguy Ale that I lost 1st round to due to manascrew. The games weren't interesting, as they all revolved around me trying to get manabase up and ready against his manadenial attempts. The only interesting moment was when he Extirpated my Tropical Islands only to find out I play single Breeding Pool as protection against such attempts.
In the finals I splitted it with the Painter Welder deck.
---------
So, what were my impressions from the deck and from the changes i made? Everything felt perfectly right. Hoofprints of the Stag were awesome even without Ponder, seems to me that SDT and Brainstorm abuse them enough. Also they have the much needed manacost of 2 and give +1/+1 to the goyf (being tribal, to grand total 7/8 from this deck alone).
Spell Snare was huge as well, I used it much more than Counterspell, only problem being decrease in 2 mana slot.
I didn't feel loss of Vedalken Shackles at all, confirming for me the impression that it is just a win more card in this deck. During first few turns sweep with sweepers, afterwards drop CB+Top - why use Shackles?
3 Intuitions may be right, I hate drawing 2 in the opening hand.
I didn't use the Academy Ruins during the day even once, and although with SBed Tormod's Crypt it may be working wonders, Wasteland may still in fact be better. Sometimes reviving Wasteland may help more than anything else.
Stronghold was pretty huge.
I hate Eternal Witness, but it's probably the neccessary evil.
You should try the second list that he used that actually won in a huge tourny.( and of course add an off land like breeding pool or bayou to get out of extirpate range like spare parts says.) The togs if used right are a huge win, I don't know how many times I have won with just having a loam in grave and a tog in play, its pretty nuts how the dredge works with tog. Truly it sounds more like you just havn't been playing the deck right, I mean mental you're all over the landstill thread and your bashing deed? That seems strange when really this deck can play like landstill only it has a better late game with crazy recursion. When it comes down to it, this deck is like landstill as it slows the game down till late game then just owns, it just uses a different engine to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
Mental you are really looking at this deck the wrong way, counterbalance in this deck is a must have or you might as well throw the deck away. The curve is actually one of the best in the game. It has a ton of 3cc, and if I recall 90% of the hate against counterbalance is ummmm well...... 3cc.( deed krosan grip, O stone, trygon predator.) so if I get to choose what random blind stuff I hit, I would like to hit the 3cc to stop the things that will blow up balance. Your worried to much about getting top out when realisticlly you have 7 tops with the inclusion of intuition.
The one big problem I do have with your list is the fact that if goyf gets extirpated you just scoop instantly. You cut down on shackles which ruins the chances of getting that, you don't have tog, and you run a 2/1 that can't get goyf after extirpate, and a 4/4 life gainer which gets swords so fast it doesn't get a swing in. Your deck is too vunerable to a single black mana.
ITF is the where it needs to be and can win a big tourny... It just needs the right pilot.
IF you truly want to tweak this deck, you don't play against a player who has played thrash alot and has huge experience with it when you don't have experience with ITF. You have to play against a variety and play against many players, its hard to get a feel for a deck when you only played one matchup. Also you might want to try and counter different things to see what the deck can do. In my testing threshold should sweat when they see you coming(this isn't saying you have a huge advantage, but the 2 decks are both good, and it usually comes down to the better skilled player and getting the other to fall into the traps.) Threshold players fear playing goyf against you, as well they should with shackles, but your list takes that fear out and lets them swing free because you also took out deed.
Stay close to the tourny list he used on the first page and you will be able to win.
I was looking over the different vesions of the deck that people have been playing/testing and drew some ideas to at least consider.
I was wondering anyone has considered replacing tarmogoyf in the deck with bitterblossom? I don't think the life loss is that relevant in a deck like this one which can also speed up the wins instead of goinig into the long game.
I'm not sure what the correct number would be to play, but its something to at least consider on how broken that card is. I actually rate bitterblossom higher than tarmogoyf in control style decks.
What do you think?
I don't think that BB is a control style card. It's aggro-control card, providing you with "forcefield" effect while your other creatures and disrupt are working on opponent's life total and cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
Tarmogoyf is important in that he can shy away the attackers. If your opponent has two 4/4 attackers, he won't attack into a goyf, but he will attack into a BB tokens. Tarmogoyf can stop attackers, whereas BB only "forcefields" them.
Majority of games take 10 turns at least. Damage from BB stacks really fast.
BB cannot be recurred with Volrath's Stronghold, which is a big downside.
All in all, why not use Hoofprints of the Stag as I did in my deck this weekend? I was really highly satisfied with them. They generate (at worst) the same amount of P/T as BB per turn, and almost always much more. They are "tribal" as well, thus enlarging your goyf. They don't make you lose your own precious life.
Bitterblossom is certainly an interesting card, but only in an aggro-control strategy. Something like "equip SoFI/Jitte to 1/1 faerie, attack for 5, draw a card".
Well spare parts hit the big reason that BB shouldn't be in the deck because of stronghold and that it doesn't actually stop attacks. But this card also doesn't work because it doesn't help in any way possible against an aggro deck like the burn aggro decks or goblins because you still take damage each turn and they will just over run you, and also goyf has somewhat bad synergy against deed but BB has even worse. Against decks like threshold or landstill, you games can easily go on longer than 20-25 turns which in turn will force you to blow a deed just to hit your own bitterblossom so you don't lose the game and in turn blow your countertop setup. But with goyf out, you arn't take damage and you can race someone or just block until you get board control.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
You use Bitterblossom the same was you use goyf. You wait until the late game when you have the board under control and just win. Maybe its not a good card in the deck, but it should be explored as a possiblity. In control decks, I believe Bitterblossom is better than Goyf, if I ever put a 3 color landstill deck together, I would add the black splash for sideboard cards in addittion to the main deck Bitterblossom.Quote:
Originally Posted by landstill101
It's just another card to win you the game late, I think it has some merit. It should at least be explored. Remember, you play the card late, not early in the course of the game.
That's one of the problems. You want Tarmogoyf early in order to discourage your opponent from attacking, and to block more effectively. The late game is less important than the early game. Especially considering Vedalken Shackles. That card is insanely good the longer the game goes. Don't get me wrong, I like Bitterblossom a lot and want to find a good deck to put it in, but I don't think it's this one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep6er
I understand completly where you are coming from. I didn't think Bitterblossom would be a better choice in your deck, but just wanted people to start thinking about it how good the card is. I would love to make a legacy faeries deck viable.
Keep up the good work and hopefully we will have the opportunity to play again in a tournament soon.
Just played a tourny with about 15 ppl. Here is the list of decks for the meta:
UGR threshold
UGW threshold
RBG goblins
RG goblins
2 RBW burn aggro decks
42 land.dec
TES
chain of mesphotofdfasofjsdfk whatever deck
stax
rock
white weenie
dragon stompy
and a couple of others that I don't remember
My first 4 rounds went like this.
Rock
He wasteland and extirpated tropical, wastelanded bayou, and extirpated tog. which by this time I was able to then control the board with 2 shackles and countertop and then stalled out. Eventually I had him down to 3 cards in deck with 3 minutes left, and he took the longest fuckin turn in the world and said go as time ran out to become active player to force a draw.
0-0-1
RG goblins
Don't remember much other than I completly owned with shackles
1-0-1
RGB goblins
The same thing as last
2-0-1
chain deck
He left of something and didn't show up for 25 mins and expected me to be ok about it and still play, soo I was nice and only make him take 1 game loss, then smack him hard core for the second.
3-0-1
first playoff game TES
Both games I draw the perfect countertop force blue card and 3 lands both game and he couldn't go off until turn 3, and by this time I was set up and won( he got bad hands and mullugens both games)
Split for top because was to lazy and went to play the cube.
The deck has now won me 4 tournies in a row and has performed more than up to expectations, have only truly lost against 2 players so far in the last 2 tournies, 1 was from belcher which he got 2 first turn kill and I didn't draw shit.(then beat him in top 4) And then against a burn deck which I got horrible countertop reveals(bad luck does happen every once in a while. But came back and beat him in top 2)
That's where you generally get your five extra turns or get the judge to give him a warning/GL for retarded slow play.Quote:
he took the longest fuckin turn in the world and said go as time ran out to become active player to force a draw
Relevant rules:
*If the match time limit is reached before a winner is determined, the active player (as defined in the Magic game rules) finishes his or her turn and five total additional turns are played. For example, time is called on player A’s turn. Player A finishes his or her turn. Player B takes extra turn #1, Player A takes extra turn #2, Player B takes extra turn #3, player A takes extra turn #4, and player B takes extra turn #5.
*Players who take longer than is reasonably required to complete game actions are engaging in Slow Play. If a judge believes a player is intentionally playing slowly to take advantage of a time limit, the infraction is Cheating — Stalling.
*If Slow Play has significantly affected the result of the match, the Head Judge may upgrade the penalty.
*(Cheating - Stalling) If it is clear that a player is stalling, the integrity of the match is compromised and he or she will face a serious penalty. [DQ without prize]
Game Loss, tardiness.Quote:
didn't show up for 25 mins
Relevant rules:
*A penalty will not be given if a round started early and a player arrived at his or her seat before the originally announced start time. At Regular and Competitive events, or in tournaments where matches consist of a single game, the tournament organizer may elect to give players the amount of time allotted for the pre-game procedure (3 minutes) before a penalty is issued. Otherwise, the appropriate penalty is issued as soon as the round begins. At any REL, if a player is not in his or her seat 10 minutes into the round, he or she is issued a second Game Loss (or two Game Losses at Regular REL). A player receiving two Game Losses for Tardiness in the same round (or one Game Loss for single-game matches) is dropped from the tournament unless they report to the Head Judge or Scorekeeper before the end of the round.
Yes, having a judge around could be useful at times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijorre
the stalling does not count if the player is actually playing actions during his turn, it doesn't matter if he is stalling or not if he is playing things during his turn, which he played a spell during his main phase, attacked, played a couple of more spells during the second main phase, and then extirpated and did a couple of other things, which in the rules of the game it is not considered stalling even though we both know that he was doing it to waste time....Which Kind of sucks becaus I could have called stalling but Decided against it because it was a friend and nothing would have happened
And on the game loss, I was being nice and only gave him 1 game loss Which if I didn't have complete faith that I would win, I would have just made him take 2 losses. But I also hate the kid with a passion and it always feels better pounding those kind of people in to the ground so I can rub it in his face.
Anywaze I wish we had an officialy judge around to help rule things but we onl have a judge that has passed the first test but didn't follow up because he went to college instead.
Slow play still applies, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by landstill101
Here is my deck, I am very happy with it….
This is what I have decided to run for my one-of intuition targets:
Genesis/ Gigapede/ Eternal Witness/ Life from the Loam/Ruins./Stronghold
There is no question why this not to run these cards. But If you need something… It forces to get the card you want. Also do not forget about the hot synergy between the recursive land and Counterbalance.
Viridian Zealot:
This is the only card that is reasonable that can destroy artifacts and enchantments with a self-supporting sac-outlet for Genesis/Stronghold. Yes, Capashen Unicorn is easier on the colored mana, and has a bigger “butt.” Yet the tap in the cost makes it less useable.
Shriekmaw:
Same as Zealot, only for creatures.
Morphling:
Amazing! Really. Makes man lands almost useless. Attacking and Blocking in one is awesome. I honestly could go on and on about how good it really is. Also I think that Psychatog does not play well with Tarmogoyf or this deck at all. If Superman is not your style that is fine by me, yet I think it is a great solution for the “I win game” clause in the deck.
Side: Silent Arbiter
It is for the beats, not sure yet if it keeps it place. But for now I am happy for it. I am willing to discuss/advise about this choice.
Here is my list for reference:
Lands
1 Academy Ruins
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Island
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
Creatures
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Shriekmaw
1 Morphling
1 Eternal Witness
Spells
3 Intuition
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Life from the Loam
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
Sideboard
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Duress
1 Silent Arbiter
2 Pernicious Deed
Sidenote:
Faerie Macabre is awesome… It is nothing like crypt or jailer or anything else. It is nuts. Play some in every deck you make
Big Selling points:
Zero mana for effect And Uncounterable
Three mana casting cost
Can Chump if needed.
Duress, I am not sure about this spot… I want to cut it…But can’t. HALP.
Meddling Mage? Thoughtseize?Quote:
Originally Posted by Giles
See thoughtseize would just be a worse duress. It really is the lack of black mana in the deck that makes me worry about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
Meddling Mage has the same problem, but with white mana.
Tog is an awful card. It's decent with the loam engine, and only with the loam engine. I'd rather play Shackles for a good late game.Quote:
Originally Posted by landstill101
Countebalance is horrible in this deck. It's hits 3cc way to often. You think that's good, but it's bad against most of the tier 1 - Threshold. Protecting balance when it doesn't do shit because it needs to flip 3cc to often to protect itself is, well, awful. Plus, Deed has horrible synergy with it. Sure I like Deed in Landstill - but not here. There are too many important permanents in this deck.
Goyf getting extirpated sucks, sure, but you still have intuition for Academy Ruins/Loam/Shackles. Heirarch isn't for the thresh MU, hes for random other MUs where 4 Life and a body is really good, and even better with Stronghold.
BTW, me and my friends all took turns playing this deck and thrash. So it wasn't "bad ITF player against good thrash player." And ITF did win some games - but the new incarnation won a lot more. I'd bet my version also has a better thresh MU.
There is no content to this part, pls stop blasting this deck for no reason. This card is a good card, if it wasn't there wouldn't be decks build around it duhhh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
Counterbalance is the key in this deck. Without it there is no deck, if you don't like it, stop posting, your just bashing a deck because you can't play it right, This deck wins because of countertop out to keep a soft lock and the recursion of any card you need. This deck is kind a mix of threshold and landstill, and if it not played that way then it wont win, but if piloted right, it can dominate, it wouldn't be here if it didn't win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
By your saying that deed is not good in this deck is practically the same as saying its bad in landstill, there are soo many similarities from this to landstill that you could almost put them in the same thread. Learn to play deed right or go back to playing thrash.
Most decks that life gain is needed are the boros decks and fast red burn aggro decks, which by the time you get heriarch out its to late to matter, and you still lose because you gave up half of the deck to play a completly different deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
No duh the new incarnation won, you changed it to beat one deck in the format, and you changed it to play more like threshold, no duh you will be able to play it better. If you don't like the deck DON'T PLAY IT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO POST.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
Jesus, calm down. I'm not allowed to bash a deck? Why not? I'm bringing up intelligent points. If you don't like it, go deal with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by landstill101
Tog is a bad card. Here's why:
It's bad in the early game.
It's 3 mana for a 1/2.
Goyf trumps it unless you want to create massive card disadvantage or it's the fairly late game.
Again, if Tog is good, Shackles is probably better.
I agree that Counterbalance is the key to this deck. However, you can't plan on having both Balance and Top in your opening hand every game. So you need Balance to function on its own - that is, blindly countering Goyf, Geese, Cantrips, and other such things. If it can't do that without Top in play, it's not worth playing, IMO.
Deed is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT in this deck than it is in Landstill. Observe:
Landstill runs up to 6 cards that have disynergy with Deed - 4 Goyf, 2 Shackles. Probably never anything more than that.
ITF runs at least 10 cards that have disynergy with Deed - 4 Goyf, 4 Balance, 2 Shackles. I see a difference.
Hierarch is also good against Goblins because it usually takes out a Driver and buys you a turn, which is nice. Against Thresh it trumps Geese. Anyway, it could become Shackles #2.
I changed the deck to play more like Threshold, sure, and to beat THE BEST DECK IN THE FORMAT more consistently. Beating the best deck in the format much more often (I don't see the even MU you guys claim against Thresh) and keeping other MUs good (I think the addition of the cycling land helps the Landstill MU, which is already probably decent based on Loam + Stronghold/Ruins) isn't a sin. Stop talking like innovation is bad.
You do realize that the reason why the three casting cost cards are in the deck is so that you can still function under an opposing Counterbalance, right? As it turns out, if you make a deck that will blindly counter things at 1-2, YOU'LL NEVER RESOLVE THOSE CARDS UNDER AN OPPOSING COUNTERBALANCE.
Do you understand? That's why Counterbalance is the trump card in game 1 of the Threshold mirror. The three cost cards in It's the Fear mean that you can still play Magic under an opposing Counterbalance. Additionally, Threshold is not the ONLY DECK IN THE FORMAT. As it turns out, people play other decks as well. Often, those other decks play cards at three in order to combat Counterbalance as well.
Landstill101 isn't making innovation out to be a sin, he's defending one of the core ideals of the deck, which is to be able to play Magic under an opposing Counterbalance. He probably said it a bit harsher than intended, but whatever, it's the internet, people are mean.
I've been testing a little ITF these days and I'm really liking the deck, it's incredibly versatile playing both control and aggrocontrol roles. I've played against some Threshold and aggrocontrol players and I have the feeling that this deck is only composed by cards the opponent cannot let resolve. If Counterbalance sticks you can softlock your opponent and win with Goyf. I know CB doesn't hit blindly so often as Threshold does, but you have much more control elements than Threshold. If CB gets handled, then I have Swords (I really think this deck has to run it) or EE to get rid of his stuff. Afterwards, you drop a Deed and blow it all. And of course there are Intuition locks. I mean, I don't want to be redundant, but this deck has too many threats the opponente has to answer.
Deed may blow your own stuff, but, besides you can even get some card advantage, I found that this deck's access to recursion in form of Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins can minimize the effect of this. I mean, if I get a Intuition to resolve I will get access to not only 3 but ten cards in my graveyard.
About Intuition targets, I have tested Tog and Shriekmaw. As many others have stated, Tog is usually just a 1/2 which can't fly or trample, most of time I'd rather have a 6/7. Shriekmaw is nice but a little redundant and many times Intuition for EE does the same job. Now I'm thinking of testing a second Witness, Witness for Pernicious is too good to not abuse of it.
@Giles: Why did you cut an Intuition to add more Intuition targets? Also, why the 3 basic Islands?
@landstill101: I see that you smashed Gobs twice on the strength of Shackles. How do/did you answer a t1 Vial? I've found that once they get Vial going with Matron/Ringleader/SGC et al, Shackles is not even close to enough and you're praying for Deed. Has anyone else had trouble with the Goblins matchup?
I agree with godryk 100% about the deck's versatility. Every card is so potent that it usually becomes a must-answer for your opponent. Whatever they don't answer determines how you play the deck. On top of that, ITF packs answers for all their must-answer cards, making it an incredibly fun deck to play.
To me, this deck is easy to play but difficult to play optimally. The Intuition decisions alone have me clicking the "Thinking" button way more often than usual. I'm probably just a poor control player though.
Lastly, someone mentioned before the strength of Bob in the deck. Bob wins games and is one of the biggest 'must-answer' cards in the format. I've been testing Gearhart's list -3 Counterspell +3 Confidant, and so far I have been very pleased with the results.
Deep6er: Thank you, Yes I'm a tad bit harsh but hey whats the internet for if I'm not aloud to shout out a little anger that I'm not aloud to do in public without getting thrown in jail.:tongue:
Godryk: misplayer already said it.
Misplayer: Well against the goblins players I think I only saw vial once and it was late game and didn't matter. I did see lackey 3 games out of 4 which gives me relief That I was able to stop first turn lackey. I'm planning on meeting with a bunch of buddies for the huge legacy tourny coming up I think next week to do alot of play testing, soo I'll check out how the first turn vial turns out.
It's not a trump against Thresh because it barely does anything against them Blind. And against opposing Counterbalances, you can still Intuition for Ruins, Loam, and EE. It's a paradox that in order to make Counterbalance good against Counterbalance you have to make it bad against Thresh, sure. But I'd rather not play sweepers that, at least in my testing, this deck has trouble supporting and are anti synergistic with it's gameplan, like Pernicious Deed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep6er
Ok Deep6er, what are the cards that cost 3 mana you're afraid of, that are played by other decks in the format?
Matron, Warchief, Cunning Wish, Intuition, Crucible of Worlds, Deed, Countryside Crusher, and Terravore. I could be missing a little bit.
Well, it doesn't seem to me like those cards are a reason to make Counterbalance bad against the best deck in the format unless you're in a heavy Goblins/Landstill meta, which I'm not, and I think most people aren't.
Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, Krosan Grip, the list goes on and on.
What I think you're missing, is that Threshold is not the ONLY deck in the format. Sure, it's the best deck, but you have solid game against them anyway. My testing has definitely shown that It's the Fear is favored against Threshold. Why warp the deck so badly to get a possible ten percent, when it ACTUALLY just screws you out of playing Magic if they land a Counterbalance before you?
You have a bad case of tunnel vision. Take a look around. The top 8's aren't completely dominated by Threshold. Chill dude. The Threshold match is fine.
Yeah, you're probably right. I still feel like Deed is clunky in this deck, and that Intuition could be better abused in every MU, not just the Thresh one. But my changes probably were a little too drastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep6er
Yup, Threshold matchup is already in our favor, I don't think we have to make heavy adjustments of the maindeck for the sole purpose of raising our winning percentages against it. So far I think that this deck is favored against all kinds of aggro-control and control decks, running on par with pure aggro decks (if properly built) and having problems against decks that don't need non-land permanents to actually win the game (combo, Ichorid, forty-something-land.dec, burn). And against Dragon Stompy, quite obviously, but I don't think we can ever get our matchup against Dragon Stompy to being better than even.
Ichorid: we maindeck some solutions to bridge tokens, this matchup should be addressed primarily by the sideboard (I know I know, I am a genius or something - use your sideboard against Ichorid!! what an idea!!) - I think Extirpate is the best choice because it also has its uses against other decks, disrupting their GY based strategies - LftL recursion, Genesis recursion etc. You almost can't ever hit LftL with Crypt, you know, and Leyline is too narrow. (excess Extirpates may address another threats, while excess Leylines are well ... excess).
Combo: t3h problem, we can't expect to get CB+Top going by the time they try to go off backed up by Orim's Chant, Xantid Swarm or discard. SB Meddling Mage or Thoughtseize/Duress? Discard may give us time to complete CB+Top lock, especially if combined with Extirpates I mentioned in the paragraph right above. Also, Extirpate can pretty much screw IGG based combos.
Aggro: that's why I changed Counterspells to Spell Snares in my version of this deck, aggro should be handled by the maindeck. There's almost no place to address it in the SB, other than omnipresent BEB.
Well, this is the SB:
3 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt (Intuition into crypt+Academy Ruins+LftL)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
Yes, no Krosan Grip. It doesn't solve any of our bad matchups, and we already have 3 Deeds + 2 EE + sexy Intuition into EE recursion. My sideboard against combo is quite heavily "black" based, but I don't expect combo decks to disrupt my manabase.
Maindeck I use is still the same as I posted 2 pages or so ago (the one I won with, if someone still does remember my little tourney report back there).
All this "It's the Fear" deck is somebody figuring out that Threshold is too tempo based and Landstill needs a better early game and so he merges the strategies, makes some personal card choices according to his experience and plays the deck. This is the natural evolution of control.
This is what happened:
-Somebody was brave enough to use his brain and make a good metagame control deck.
-He had the skill to play it.
-He did well at a tournament.
-Everyone flocks to the "new deck" because they think it's some kind of new tech to help them.
-Everybody sucks and cant take advantage of the tech because they didn't personal come up with it themselves and do not understand it so they show there version of tech and like allot of control deck everybody ignored eachother and just rambles pointless opinions hoping people agree but they dont because they have there own decklist and opinions and everyone is stubborn and nobody understands eachother and most players on here suck or cannot learn new things and blah blah blah.
I just cannot understand why this deck has its own thread.
I have made many decks that are a pile of good cards like this and perform just as good or better.
For example "The Rock" thread is practically 50 different decks and if they gave them a new name and people on this forum liked them enough and they top 8ed they would get there own decklist for a variant of something else that is nothing new but supposable some newly defined tech.
BTW This includes "Eva Green" as all it is, is Sui with Goyf. Oh but they didn't play Tombstalker, Thoughtseize, and Goyf! Ummm thats because they werent printed! Decks evolve as the format changes and there are new playable cards. "Eva Green" is somebody trying to make a new deck realizing it was bad and slowly realizing it to the point they take the bad cards out and it becomes somebody aknowledging that the format changes.
The only reason why there are so many decks in legacy is because people dont realize certain decks are bad or don't test enough to have there version refined so the format is a billion variants of 20 different decks. People dont follow the format and people are stubborn and keep playing outdated decks untill somebody figures out Legacy does change and makes the "new list" with a "new name" to go get people to realize that there deck changed.
The fact is though there are no set decks and any good player can throw together a pile of good cards after taking a look at the format and then outplay everyone with the pile and win.
People lose because:
- They don't know the format.
- They choose a bad deck.
- They play a deck thats bad in the metagame.
- They don't know how to play there deck.
- They don't know how to play there match ups.
- They just plain suck.
Excuse my rant but I thought I had some very good point running through my head and this thread seemed like a good place to vent it and start a healthy disscusion.
Sooo Is this post ment for everyone on here, or are you just venting off and just randomly choose this one. Anywaze I think more or less he is perfectly right, As it has been talked about a couple of times and has a thread soley to talk about it, almost every deck says it has a favorable matchup against threshold and in almost every case that is completly wrong, the decks actually have a good matchup against bad threshold players, Right now I have not lost to threshold yet with this deck, but many of the people that play it around me do not play it well at all.(Yawg is starting to play threshold soo we will have a good player soon.) But it also works the same the other way around, a great threshold player can easily beat any good player no matter the deck, it doesn't matter if the play dragon stompy or this deck, they will still win from shear skill. Ok back to the deck....Quote:
Originally Posted by darkalucard
I played in a 12 man tourny last night and split first place by going 3-1 for swiss. I beat Thrash, chain of mepho deck, and white stax and lost to enchantress, then beat a eva green deck for playoffs and split with the enchantress deck, which then we left and played cube the rest of the night. Right now the deck is still performing.