[Deck] The Rock

@ Aggrosteve

I'm still alive. :) I haven't tested Stoneforge, but I did test Inquisition at a small tournament (21 players) a couple of days ago. Decklist looked like this:

23 LANDS:
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Treetop Village
1 Wasteland
3 Forest
3 Plains
1 Swamp

19 CREATURES:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Knight of Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks

7 DISRUPTION
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy

11 REMOVAL
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate

15 SIDEBOARD:
3 Extirpate
2 Engineered Plague
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Crime/Punishment
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Ghostly Prison

I went 3-2. I lost to UB Reanimator (tournament winner) and Dredge (finished 3rd). Both losses were 1:2 after severe misplays -e.g. I Extirpated Troll instead of Bridge from Below because I didn't look at his graveyard properly.

Inqisition proved to be an excellent choice. Every time I played it, opponents were hard pressed. For instance, in R1 a guy had to play force of will (paid for with Daze) in order to prevent me from discarding his Nimble Mongoose.

Conclusions I made after the tournament were:

Canadien ******** is a bye for this deck. It can't hope to win.
Reanimator and Dredge are 30/70 but can be beaten with accurate play.
Goblins are 50/50 with chances in our favour after SB.
Rogue MBC-s are very difficult to play against, but can be beaten with accurate play post-sideboard.
Inquisition of Kozilek is an adequate alternative for Thoughtsieze. I completely don't care about FoW. It will get discarded with therapy eventually or one of my spells will be exchanged for 2 of his.

*breathes* I played against a guy in Atlanta with the mystic package. It was cool but it didn't seem to do anything important to me. I asked him what he thought of it and he said that Fire/Ice wasn't that good in his matches and wanted another light and shadow instead. I didn't ask what he played though.

Personally, I'm not convinced on the Swords. They seem clunky and more intense than they're worth for us. Jitte is a possibility of that for Aggro Rock. I personally don't think it's enough though.

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aelius - Where there times you wanted to grab something else that Inquisition couldn't grab?

@AggroSteve: I'm currently testing the Stoneforge Mystic package in this build:

Lands (23):

3 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland

Creatures (13):

3 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Disruption (8):

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

Removal (11):

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Smallpox

Miscellaneous (5):

2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sensei's Divining Top

So far the Jitte package has been amazing, it definitely shores up the tribal matchup. Like damionblackgear, I feel the Swords don't deserve a spot, Jitte is almost always better.

I guess we can just say GG to most noninteractive decks out there, like Reanimator, Belcher, ANT and Dredge most of the time.
Of all the rest, we can have decent game against aggro and maybe sometimes against control /w combo. Pure control seems bad mathup (like MBC control/aggro whatever jank im facing), but it is not like it's reallly viable at the moment. The way midrange always worked- crushed aggro, struggled against control (resolved CB/FoF anyone?) and died like shit against combo. Except that we don't always crush aggro now.
So i guess it's a metagame deck, if you expect a lot of little men coming your way, like Zoo and tribal.

@Jitte /w Stoneforger: i tried 2/1 split and it was meh. But i guess it's still better than 3/0 split..
Anyone had any sucess building something remotely playable in a meta full of Reanimator/CB decks?
@Bojuka Bog MD: i think its bad. If i get time to actually play the Knight, then i think im in pretty good shape.
@brianw712: how has been Smallpox/Engineered Explosives main? I play Vindicate/Pulse ATM and i don't really like them. Is Smallpox pulling it's weight in UB Reanimator or is it just good on paper but meh otherwise? What about other matchups?

Smallpox I think is amazing, it actually does work well against Reanimator since you have Hymn and Thoughtseize to strip them of their counters and Top and Confidant to find Smallpox. Obviously Reanimator still isn't an easy matchup by any means. In my tests, for some reason, people keep naming black with Iona before they even see Smallpox=/. And then I see like three Smallpoxes on the top of my library with Top and can't find a Swords. But anyway, it's always good to know that you have outs in your deck. As an additional bonus, Smallpox kills Progenitus.

I've also found it amazing against decks like Bant Survival or CounterTop Bant, which rely on Noble Hierarch. Turn two Smallpox on a turn one Hierarch is pretty crushing for them. I've found that the only way that a midrange deck like Rock can beat a deck with so much card advantage like Survival is to keep them off of their mana. It's also not dead against decks like Zoo, where two mana removal is still decent.

Engineered Explosives has been OK, I haven't tested much after I put in the Stoneforge Mystic package so maybe I now have too many 2cc permanents for explosives. I thought about Vindicate, but I feel like it would be too slow. I want to limit the number of 3cc+ cards in the deck, especially since I'm running 4 Smallpox.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zalachan

I guess we can just say GG to most noninteractive decks out there, like Reanimator, Belcher, ANT and Dredge most of the time.

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Why? Drop Swords and let them fight Knight and Edict. Dredge isn't as popular since Lands and Reanimator rekindled the Graveyard hate boards. An active Knight beats Reanimator and if they name white you edict.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

Why? Drop Swords and let them fight Knight and Edict. Dredge isn't as popular since Lands and Reanimator rekindled the Graveyard hate boards. An active Knight beats Reanimator and if they name white you edict.

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Yes, but Knight needs to hit the table first. It's not like Reanimator is slow or something, many times Mystical just owns your permission plan and then you are in a word of pain.

Knight is good if its online to fetch Karakas, yes. And "maybe" to fetch bog, but i just don't like that plan. Getting Knight on the table would require me to play BoP/Hierarch, and i'm not a fan of manamen in my rock anymore.

Its not like you have many options if Iona resolves on White (StP, Vindicate, Knight off), and finding/resolving Edict may be just as challenging as them finding Toughtseize/FoW/SP f. And i'm still on the verge if I should play Edict MD.. Smallpox on the other hand.. hmm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zalachan

Yes, but Knight needs to hit the table first. It's not like Reanimator is slow or something, many times Mystical just owns your permission plan and then you are in a word of pain.

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Yes, if Iona names white, she's gotta be on-board already. That's why I'm promoting cutting swords for edict. As far as force goes, you have hand disruption as well, your chances improve. I have a Bog in the board but it's been on the chopping block. And the 0/1's, we're in the same boat but, I do have exploration.

Edict or Pox? I'm a fan of easier to cast. I like being able to grab fetches turns 1, 2, and 3 to have all basics. Personal choices though.

Cutting swords? Nooooo, I think that's a really bad idea. Edict is only really better than Swords against Reanimator, and maybe Pro Bant, and maybe Canadian Thresh. Merfolk? They sac a Cursecatcher instead of their Reejery. Goblins? Siege-gang tokens instead of the commander itself. Bant? They sac that Noble Hierarch instead of the Rhox War Monk you desperately need to get rid of. There are enough creatures played in Legacy that there will often be more than one on the opponent's side of the table at once, and Swords is so much more versatile than Edict in those situations. The life-gain is not all that relevant, since Rock I see as more of a control deck against most decks in the format than as an aggro deck. And the difference between two mana and one mana is very, very relevant. Turn one swords a Nacatl turn two Hymn is so much better than having to use your mana on turn two for an Edict. Not to mention it's more easily Dazed (or at least makes the other spells you cast that turn more easily Dazed). If you really want to have enough tools to fight Reanimator, I would either just run Edicts/Smallpoxes in the board, or run both Swords and Edicts/Smallpoxes main. But either way, I consider Swords to Plowshares a must.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brianw712

Cutting swords? Nooooo, I think that's a really bad idea. Edict is only really better than Swords against Reanimator, and maybe Pro Bant, and maybe Canadian Thresh. Merfolk? They sac a Cursecatcher instead of their Reejery. Goblins? Siege-gang tokens instead of the commander itself. Bant? They sac that Noble Hierarch instead of the Rhox War Monk you desperately need to get rid of. There are enough creatures played in Legacy that there will often be more than one on the opponent's side of the table at once, and Swords is so much more versatile than Edict in those situations. The life-gain is not all that relevant, since Rock I see as more of a control deck against most decks in the format than as an aggro deck. And the difference between two mana and one mana is very, very relevant. Turn one swords a Nacatl turn two Hymn is so much better than having to use your mana on turn two for an Edict. Not to mention it's more easily Dazed (or at least makes the other spells you cast that turn more easily Dazed). If you really want to have enough tools to fight Reanimator, I would either just run Edicts/Smallpoxes in the board, or run both Swords and Edicts/Smallpoxes main. But either way, I consider Swords to Plowshares a must.

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Why does everyone think it's terrible to remove swords? It's not that big a deal. I 6-2'd ATL without swords and lost to a lands deck (mulled to 5 game 3 and couldn't force the draw on the last of the 5 turns) and enchantress with main-decked blood-moons (I was not expecting that). EVERYONE else was crushed, including Pro-Bant and Merfolk (how do you lose this match?!). Swords is good but it's not going to make you lose. In both those matches swords were irrelevant.

Also, On swords side, the life is important. Burn decks hurt. but that's another story entirely.

Nice showing, Damion! Mind posting the list you went to Atlanta with, and what decks you ended up facing? (A short tourney report would be cool just so we can see where the deck is lagging, and where it's not).

-Matt

@damion:

Yes, I too would like to see your list. I don't know how a list without Swords could consistently beat Merfolk, since Stifle/Waste hurts a lot, and Edicts can't reliably get rid of Sovereigns/Reejeries/the new Coralhelm Commanders that can swing past your guys. Pro Bant is also not necessarily a good matchup, a Progenitus with CounterTop backup pretty much nullifies Edict.

And you're right that the Swords life gain is relevant against burn/Zoo, but that just gives another reason to run it instead of Edict.

I've done a little bit of testing with a terrageddon build...seems decent. You have the horizon canopy/crucible engine which is a lock with solitary confinement.

4 savannah
4 windswept heath
4 wasteland
4 horizon canopy
3 marsh flats
2 scrubland
1 bayou
1 forest
1 plains

4 knight of the reliquary
4 tarmo
3 terravore

2 solitary confinement
4 cataclysm
4 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozilek
4 swords to plowshares
4 crucible of worlds
4 mox diamond

sorry but i think you are in the wrong thread (but i have to say i like your build kinda)

either way, lately i was quite unsatisfied with my confidants (i play only 3), lately i havent been drawing any of them, and i noticed that most of the time i would have wanted a utility creature more often than to draw into a confidant, wouldn't it be an idea to cut confidants completely in favor of stoneforge with all 3 equipments, since it would also improve some matchups, specially since lately again i'm losing a lot against goblins, and the only games i win against them is when i got a thoughtsieze to take their vial or their biggest thread in hand, in that case i do not even have to worry about lackeys

right now i'm considering to cut my 3 confidants completely, cut 1 of 3 witnesses, play a 3/3 split thoughtsieze and inquisition, and add the stoneforge mystic package, since with stoneforge i get cardadvantage immideatly, and the swords i pick can protect my guys from removal. most of the time confidant was just in to lure out one of my opponents removals (which is good no doubt about that)

gosh, i'm right now quite not satisfied with my list, probably cause of this i'm thinking of changes
and me too would like to see the list with the edicts instead of the swords, i was wondering if some magor changes were made to the list, or were the swords just replaced with edicts

I took this from my Facebook wall since I don't remember a lot of it. I took the names of people I played out. The last round was terribly played. I'll pm the list to you both as I don't feel like getting flamed again yet.

Round 1 vs rock... :D. Game 1 I Armageddon when he's tapped and have a Knight in play... and a crucible... and an exploration... Yeah.
Game 2 I keep 5 land Bob and seize.. I don't know why. It just seemed fun... Until he Thoughtseized me turn 1. *Turns Timmy mode off*
Game 3 I keep 3 land, goyf Bob seize vindicate... yup...

1-0

Round 2 vs Zoo: Game 1 I stabilized at 3... wishing for that stadium I cut the whole time? But I got Armageddon instead... knights finish.
Game 2 he curves and I get priced for 12 (him for 8)
Game 3 I drop all 8 (top included) on the second turn and top sees the Baneslayer... get there much?

2-0

Round 3 vs 43Lands: game 1 I mull to 6 he plays exploration into loam. I thoughtseize a manabond and draw dead.
Game 2 I mull to 6 and keep a 2 land leyline Bob goyf hand... I draw 2 lands and Armageddon *he had put me on an awkward build of lands.
Game 3, from the mull to 5,I keep a hand that is Bob top fetches and a basic. After solving Meloku, his tokens, a wastelock, & his graveyard once, we go to time. He gets dark depths and hexmage and is finally able to get it out on turn 4 after time. I have no answer since he ported Karakas and wasted the Kor Haven. I knew I was aiming for the draw after I solved the Meloku but I'm not a slow player. If I was, we would've gone to time.
2-1

Round 4 vs pro-bant: game 1 I open with 2 lands an exploration crucible lock and vindicates. .. don't draw land after I'm for sure dead. So I bait him into thinking I'm another deck and play the crucible.
Game 2 he bit and goyfs and BBSAget there.
Game 3 I get a wastelock and see tabernacle...
May 2 at 1:35pm ·

Round 5 merfolk. (if you're looking for a tournament report... I don't write them for this match. They need bob to win) I loved this match. My opponent was so much fun. I sent him the list afterwards. I wish all my opponents could be like this guy.
May 2 at 2:36pm ·

Round 6 enchantress w/moons mained!: game 1... you see the exclamation point? Left field... pants down bend over and prep for insertion... I was fetching duals cause I though I was safe.
Game 2 Armageddon gets there when you have 2 goyf.
Game 3 he sandbags 2 lands as I Armageddon. The 3 enchantments in play and the second land cast replenish... which also got the moon I had just deeded the turn before. I had 2 basics but no swamp... 2 vindicates in hand... then he played karmic justice and I was done for.

X-2

Round 7 vs 43 lands: game 1, since I had just bit it to moon, I fetched out basics played Bob and Knight... Bob flipped Armageddon. ..
Game 2 Knight shows up again. He starts to really recover and as he casts life I fetched bog. Win.
X-2

Round 8 vs Aggro rock/hybrid Eva green/dead Guy ale: Both games we did stupid things (I armageddoned dropped 2 lands and had active Knight but neglected to fetch tabernacle which was awkward) and I won. It wasn't glitzy but it happened the hard way... end results x-2.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

I took this from my Facebook wall since I don't remember a lot of it. I took the names of people I played out. The last round was terribly played. I'll pm the list to you both as I don't feel like getting flamed again yet.

Round 1 vs rock... :D. Game 1 I Armageddon when he's tapped and have a Knight in play... and a crucible... and an exploration... Yeah.
Game 2 I keep 5 land Bob and seize.. I don't know why. It just seemed fun... Until he Thoughtseized me turn 1. *Turns Timmy mode off*
Game 3 I keep 3 land, goyf Bob seize vindicate... yup...

1-0

Round 2 vs Zoo: Game 1 I stabilized at 3... wishing for that stadium I cut the whole time? But I got Armageddon instead... knights finish.
Game 2 he curves and I get priced for 12 (him for 8)
Game 3 I drop all 8 (top included) on the second turn and top sees the Baneslayer... get there much?

2-0

Round 3 vs 43Lands: game 1 I mull to 6 he plays exploration into loam. I thoughtseize a manabond and draw dead.
Game 2 I mull to 6 and keep a 2 land leyline Bob goyf hand... I draw 2 lands and Armageddon *he had put me on an awkward build of lands.
Game 3, from the mull to 5,I keep a hand that is Bob top fetches and a basic. After solving Meloku, his tokens, a wastelock, & his graveyard once, we go to time. He gets dark depths and hexmage and is finally able to get it out on turn 4 after time. I have no answer since he ported Karakas and wasted the Kor Haven. I knew I was aiming for the draw after I solved the Meloku but I'm not a slow player. If I was, we would've gone to time.
2-1

Round 4 vs pro-bant: game 1 I open with 2 lands an exploration crucible lock and vindicates. .. don't draw land after I'm for sure dead. So I bait him into thinking I'm another deck and play the crucible.
Game 2 he bit and goyfs and BBSAget there.
Game 3 I get a wastelock and see tabernacle...
May 2 at 1:35pm ·

Round 5 merfolk. (if you're looking for a tournament report... I don't write them for this match. They need bob to win) I loved this match. My opponent was so much fun. I sent him the list afterwards. I wish all my opponents could be like this guy.
May 2 at 2:36pm ·

Round 6 enchantress w/moons mained!: game 1... you see the exclamation point? Left field... pants down bend over and prep for insertion... I was fetching duals cause I though I was safe.
Game 2 Armageddon gets there when you have 2 goyf.
Game 3 he sandbags 2 lands as I Armageddon. The 3 enchantments in play and the second land cast replenish... which also got the moon I had just deeded the turn before. I had 2 basics but no swamp... 2 vindicates in hand... then he played karmic justice and I was done for.

X-2

Round 7 vs 43 lands: game 1, since I had just bit it to moon, I fetched out basics played Bob and Knight... Bob flipped Armageddon. ..
Game 2 Knight shows up again. He starts to really recover and as he casts life I fetched bog. Win.
X-2

Round 8 vs Aggro rock/hybrid Eva green/dead Guy ale: Both games we did stupid things (I armageddoned dropped 2 lands and had active Knight but neglected to fetch tabernacle which was awkward) and I won. It wasn't glitzy but it happened the hard way... end results x-2.

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Really Armageddon and baneslayer? Why not terravore?

Baneslayer is a 5/5 lifelinker with evasion and a built-in combat trick, additionally she's Pro demon (which usually isn't relivant) but Tomb stalker can be pumped by a hierarch.

Vore can die to graveyard removal. and can't be played all that well against gobs. Knight, on the other hand, has more synergy with the deck as a whole. The downside is that you're giving up 1/2 of the power but, she's a more consistent beater and able to be utility against the field. A land toolbox is solid.

To be honest the only slot I really saw to try and fit a Vore in was in place of Goyf... and that wasn't going to happen anytime soon.

The list you sent me seems interesting, not your traditional rock list, but more of a New Horizons/Rock cross-breed. I love Exploration and Crucible to death, and am playing them in an Eternal Garden-esque deck, but with Terravores and Knights. I'll definitely give your build a try, though. Seems solid.

I was hoping though that your list would give me insight into how I could improve my list, but it was off in a completely different direction, so no DIRECT help there :P

I'll post it hopefully later today or tomorrow and we can work on it. I posted an old list a while back, but I'll post my comments and what I was aiming for.

Again Damion, good showing!

Regards,

Matt

Bah, I lagged out horribly and it accidentally double posted. Sorry!

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

Baneslayer is a 5/5 lifelinker with evasion and a built-in combat trick, additionally she's Pro demon (which usually isn't relivant) but Tomb stalker can be pumped by a hierarch.

Vore can die to graveyard removal. and can't be played all that well against gobs. Knight, on the other hand, has more synergy with the deck as a whole. The downside is that you're giving up 1/2 of the power but, she's a more consistent beater and able to be utility against the field. A land toolbox is solid.

To be honest the only slot I really saw to try and fit a Vore in was in place of Goyf... and that wasn't going to happen anytime soon.

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I can't tell if you're serious...