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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
Depends what you look for. With a free slot I would add the forth Shambling Shell, because mulliganing is not an option. Additional removal might be ok.
@Flayer: It also kills those Peacekeepers and cleanse the path for you ;-)
Greetings Mindlash
There are disadvantages to Dryad Arbor as well, regardless of being an option when you draw a Dryad Arbor as opposed to not being an when you draw a Chancellor of the Forge to put a creature into play, you have to physically put Dryad Arbor into play from your hand where you get to keep Chancellor of the Forge in your hand and put a token on the board. Not only do you get your creature a turn earlier, not only do you get to attack with said creature two turns earlier (Haste) but you also get to keep 7 cards in your hand to either keep DDDing the same Dredger (Golgari Grave Troll to maximize your Dredging) but you get to discard an additional card if you're chain Dredging instead (a Cabal Therapy for example)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Ofcourse, the Goblin Token doesn't activate Bridge from Below, but Chancellor of the Forge is a much more attractive Dread Return target, so trade offs, trade offs trade offs as they say.
I think in Hollywood's build its better to play dryad arbor than chancellor of the forge because if u dont start with them its better to return other target for dread return. The arbors are superior during the sideboard because your chances to cast an artifact/enchantment hate is better than starting with 4 chancellor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Yeah. I'm just sold on Dryad Arbor for its overall utility. It's a very attractive card with Dread Return, and as previously stated it alleviates some pressure when you move to the sideboard when boarding in lands and such. Keeping Chancellor in hand is nice, but the bonus of creating tokens and adding mana is what I'm after, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Hi everyone,
Very interested in this deck.
I have a couple question's;
I get why Grisel & Flayer are so killer, not just for SnT matchups, but could you guys explain some thing for me?
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur draws you 7 cards at end of turn, but also nukes your opponents' cards in hand, killing their chance to prevent you just winning next turn if they can't win straight away.
After going through this thread (that took a while! Cheers for the read), even before Grisel was around, Jin wasn't making much of a mention.
Given it's a guarauntee'd way to Dredge your deck when your life is lower than 7, is it playable?
Cards like Contagion, Shoal etc;
When you cast those, you have to have a Dredger in the GY or it's just a very nervous and possible scoop right?
Finally, is anyone still playing Gitaxian Probe anymore? IS the extra consistency it provides really needed?
Being able to see their hand turn1 just seems pretty handy to me....
Thanks!
I think the biggest problem with Jin is that you have to wait a turn after you return it to nix thier hand and win.
The Grisel option just lets you win outright with a flayer-->troll kill off 3 dread returns if your opponent can't interact.
Older options were things like Sage or Sphinx to try and simulate similar options with a flame-kin kill, however Grisel Flayer is so explosive there is little reason to play the alternatives unless you're worried about having the life to pitch to Grisel. Jin might be playable as a 1-of sideboard card if you were using a manaless build that had silver bullet slots. If we're talking about hollywoods list you don't really have that flexibility unless you're cutting Rev Silence or Shoal/Contagion. Cutting the artifact destruction would likely be a mistake with cage running around.
I see Contagion/Shoal as cards that you play on T3-T4 rather than things you're going to play before dredge engine is running. I think that once the new W/G 2/1 gets printed it will make things significantly more difficult to deal with.
Did you mean see their hand T2? Don't you normally use Probe similarly to street wraith to accelerate your DDD? I'm considering bringing probe in for extra consistency in Game 1 because the decks I play against don't have that many annoying creatures that need to be removed in Game 1. GSZ takes an extra turn to fetch an answer and I'm willing to rely on that timing and a potential Therapy. I appreciate Therapy is strong when you're familiar with what's running around, but given that probe also accelerates DDD and lets you know what line of play you can go all-in on I think it's possibly better to be proactive in Game 1 rather than reactive.
Cheers.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwis
Yeah I thought that was the thought behind Jin. He's a beast in Reanimator, but then with SnT running in those decks now Jin seems to have lost his place to the Grisel.
You're right :wink: - Gitaxian Probe is far better once a dredger is in the yard, so it would be turn 2.
I'm actually thinking about running Hollywoods' list (Thanks Hollywood!!) except with a slight change.
Opting the creature hate out for game 1 and running Gitaxian Probe instead for a higher chance of having either that or Street Wraith in hand, making my dredge on turn 2 more explosive. Whilst I see Sundering Titan as a very valid choice, I think I might just go for another Shambling Shell.
I'm sure this isn't gonna be as resilient as Hollywoods' list, so I'll try both this and his list against a variety of match-ups and see how I go. I'm pretty keen to see how both versions fair against heavy counter, storm and Show'n'Tell decks.
I just wanna thank everyone here for their contribution to this thread - very good read, very informative and well thought out. Thanks heaps!!
Guys...i had the idea of runnig this deck tomorrow in a big tournament here. A friend of mine who know the meta better than me told me that i will be full of burn, goblins and maverick. Do you think that is wise going with manaless??
Sure, why not? If you peruse around and see a lot of Burn, you could even flex the Titan slot for an Iona or Ancestor's Chosen. Contagion also helps against Goblins and Maverick. It's at least something to consider - and it depends strongly on the list you opt to run.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
one very similar to yours but with sphinx instead of griselda because of burn...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Don't underestimate a 7/7er lifelinker in this matchup. I'd stick with Grinselbro, as you can eihter go for the combo kill once he's tapped out ( or once you got rid of cards like Fireblast, etc. via Therapy) or simply grind them out with his body ( boy that sounds creepy).Quote:
one very similar to yours but with sphinx instead of griselda because of burn...
As Hollywood allreaddy suggested: Rather go for an Iona / Ancenstors Choosen in the flex slot and don't worry about the matchup at all ( while also improving your other matchups, as Grinselbro is better in each of those, compared to Sphinx).
Quote:
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur draws you 7 cards at end of turn, but also nukes your opponents' cards in hand, killing their chance to prevent you just winning next turn if they can't win straight away.
You had allready answerd your own question with the underlined parts, turning your whole deck upside down eot, only to run straight into hate , kinda sucks.
I'm going to play Manaless next wednsday ( Hollywoods list with a little tweak: Maindeck -1 Titan +1 Vizzedrix ( because I have to rum him, at least once) and SB -2 Forest +2 Bayou (I'll explain that choice later).
cheers
Cutting Griselbrand vs Burn is like cutting Force of Will vs Storm, don't do it. Seriously, people shoudl just cut all of the bullshit Dread Return targets from their deck and just play Griselbrand and Flayer of the Hatebound, there's no reason to play anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Hs anyone tried running more than one Flayer?
I'm thinking two Flayer, three Grisel at the mo'. I did about 3 hours with this deck last night goldfishing/playing - five Dread Return Targets feels good.
For some reason with a single Flayer I just never find it, and my mate just kept extracting my Grisel (proxy).
Getting your Griselbrands Surgically Extracted isn't the worst thing that can happen to you.
However, two Flayer seems like a reasonable number to me - with three Griselbrand.
What about Realm Razer?Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
It deals with all the lands on the field, even lands without basic types. It also gets mono-color decks.
Also, would Iona, Shield of Emeria be good? She can randomly shut down a lot of decks by herself.
I've posted this at the other Dredge thread:
I'm also looking for advices here.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
If you guys are looking for dedicated targets, I would keep it simple; Griselbrand and Flayer do the job perfectly. They are the best at what they do and effectively win the game on the spot. You really don't have to worry too much about Burn being an issue with Griselbrand and Therapies.
Certain games can be an issue, and if your meta is flooded with good Burn players then you could consider an Iona or Chosen. Aside from that, you really don't need to worry too much about it.
That being said, here is my current list:
//Dredgers
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[3x] Shambling Shell
//Recursive Threats
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
//Combo Enablers
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Phantasmagorian
//Utility Cards
[4x] Dryad Arbor
[3x] Contagion
[1x] Sickening Shoal
//DR Package
[4x] Dread Return
[3x] Griselbrand
[2x] Flayer of the Hatebound
//Sideboard
[4x] Nature's Claim
[4x] Reverent Silence
[3x] Sickening Shoal
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest
[1x] Contagion
Obviously interchangeable utilities with each of these cards. I'm also really liking the versatility of the second Flayer.
As for Bayou, eh. I don't really like it in the sideboard and I think it's more of a liability against decks running Wasteland. I think you should take advantage of a hand opening with a fetch against those decks so you can reliably have something to keep in play while playing or drawing into anti-hate. It's not worth risking the blowout or deepening a hole you could (potentially) be in.
I've also thought about trimming down the Contagion out of the board. What would go in its place is anyone's guess, but it's just a thought. I really like opening with removal and it gives you some breathing room when you have a slower start.
EDIT: Mindbreak Trap is also helpful against Storm.
Hey Hollywood, why not have Ancient Grudge in the SB? It seems a lot less awkward to cast from the grave than to cast by hand since we are not going to mulligan anyways. Nature's Claim also does nothing against MUD sometimes because they play Chalice @ 1. Seems to be an overall better artifact hate. Though, I guess we still need enchantment hate in some form. I fear Rest in Peace will see use once RtR comes out.
Ray of Revelation is also a flashback enchantment hate option. Obviously does nothing against LotV or RIP, but still a SB choice to consider.
Ancient Grudge does nothing against Leyline and Rest in Peace like you already said.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
In Hollywoods Deck is green mana only...so it also does nothing against Cage (no flashbacking Grudge for green when Cage is active).
Chalice 1 does not hurt much. You can still recurr all your creatures and sac them into DR for Griselbrand into Flayer or something like that. Chalice 1 only permits the use of Cabal Therapy here and of course the Anti-Hate in form of Claim.
Greetings Mindlash
If we're talking about games two and three, I don't know why an opponent would keep Chalice in to begin with. It counters Therapy and that's about it. And that doesn't stop tokens off Bridge, anyhow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
i think you're in the wrong thread mate!. you're referring to manadredge. this is manaless dredge thread lol
manaless is not afraid of chalice as mentioned above we can still play our creatures for free