[Deck] Jund

People say 'you don't want to pay 4 - 8 life' about library, but as a matter of fact some matchups do not care about your life total. Most significantly all the Show and Tell variants, against which you can easily fire library four times and you're gonna love it. To some degree against control decks you are fine with dropping to single digit life as well. Finally mirror and other grindy matchups are often more about CA than life total, and often times you find yourself in a position where entire game can turn around if you can pay 4 life to get removal and threat in same draw.

The 'no need to pay mana later' is a fine aspect of library, but additional draw is what makes this card huge (and why people don't just play mirri's guile instead). It is great against both storm and s'n't combo, very good against control, often useful against grindy mirror and only bad against decks like Canadian *****, against which you don't have mana to play with top anyway.

With library you do not initially want to pay four life to draw cards unless you are already ahead on board, or so far behind you need to get certain cards to catch back up. I remember reading an article Todd Anderson wrote where he explained how library can be good. It is really good against decks that play swords to plowshares. One in the main is good and one in the sideboard can be pretty good as well. I had been using it for b/g deaths shadow which is similar to jund, but I think I finally got tired of playing the same deck and switched to ant. Anyway, I wonder if using the library is better than using a shardless agent. The meta game is starting to reward decks that can create a board presence.

I'm a huge supporter of Sylvan Library over Sensei's Divining Top. Top demands constantly feeding mana to be of any use whereas Lib is a much stronger "free" effect. Life is a relative resource in MTG and being able to use it to gain you real card advantage when you need it the most is what makes the advantage engine, in Jund, so strong. Mana, on the other hand, is precious in Jund. I hardly ever have mana left over at the end of my turns, between casting things on curve, BBE with Wastelands in the deck and the Punishing Fire combo I likely wouldn't be triggering Top until turn 5+ (or missing out doing something in order to trigger Top any earlier), this is not the case wit Lib which would likely also help fill up my hand with answers or threats by the time Top would really come into effect for me, thus making Top seem inferior to me. In summery, while I agree there are some positives and advantages in running SDT, it doesn't give anything other than virtual card advantage and at a cost of tapping mana to activate, Lib, on the other hand, always provides virtual card advantage, however, also gives you the option to pay life to gain actual card advantage, which, to me, makes it a much stronger card in this deck.

thank you very much for your ideas about library and top. And what about have 1 library plus 1 top in our main deck? it could be usefull also agaist pithing needle or similar! :rolleyes:

thank you again for your suggestions

If your opponent casts Needle on Library/SDT, s/he is doing something wrong and you just got ahead a notch. In most cases, Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker shut Lily, DRS and *sometimes* Wasteland (happened to me once or twice).

Sylvan Library is simply better in this deck due to all the reasons people mentioned above whilst a legit reason to play SDT instead is when you are playing some Pernicious Deeds in your 75.

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Originally Posted by DOM

If your opponent casts Needle on Library/SDT, s/he is doing something wrong and you just got ahead a notch

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Just to be clear. Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker naming SDT does prevent you from using the Top. But Pithing Needle naming Sylvan Library doesn't prevent you from using the Library, because under the current rules/errata, Library has a triggered ability, not an activated one.

yes, clear.....I normally use 2 Top and my question was if it could be usefull to use library+top also to avoid problems with pithing needle. If you use only library, you won't have problems with pithing needle.

Good suggestion also about using Top if in the side there are Pernicious Deeds (as in my side)!!! :wink:

thank you

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Originally Posted by Lighning Bebbi

The 2-2 splitt is ok, I think, because lifeloss can be very relevant in agressive match ups like canadian.
There are not that many cards with cc4 or greater you MUST hit.
You still have Hymns, Lilianas and one Pulse to prohibit these cards.
Even though there is 1 matchup where I board 2 Inquisitions vs 2 Thoughtseize: Esper/Death Blade.

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As soon as you reveal Jace with Inquisition of Kozilek you're going to feel a lot differently about it.

The Jund deck that mad the finals of the most recent SCG had 3 Choke in it's sideboard, presumably to combat Omnitell. Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Basaka

The Jund deck that mad the finals of the most recent SCG had 3 Choke in it's sideboard, presumably to combat Omnitell. Any thoughts?

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Choke has always been a good green card to combat blue decks. Seems solid against control as well, but with Abrupt Decay I think there are lots of ways out from it.

One of the last winning Jund lists on mtgtop8 features 2 Deeds in the SB
Does our deck really support this card (if not playing Top)? I dont like the fact that i have no real answer to tokens, miracle angels especially, but Deed takes out my own DRS, my sylvan and propably also my Bobs and Goyfs.

Have somebody else tried the card with success?

I have tried Deed, and I didn't like it. It is an excellent answer to tokens, but I found it clunky and such. The problem is that you trade one of your cards (Deed) for theirs (Entreat), but you probably will lose creatures, so you will go to parity on the board, but chances are they are in a better position overall.

I honestly do have a singleton Damnation in the sideboard, but sometimes I feel like EE could be just as good and a bit more focused.

But I do think Jund does need mass removal these days, and more Planeswalkers. I have played 2 Garruk Relentless and 1 Koth of the Hammer when Miracles was all the rage, and having those and more mass removal is an idea. Deed could come into play, but it might be too much mana if you need to activate it for Swarm decks, instead of Entreat.

However the deck seems to have died down a bit lately, so it is not as necessary anymore.

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Originally Posted by razvan

But I do think Jund does need mass removal these days, and more Planeswalkers. I have played 2 Garruk Relentless and 1 Koth of the Hammer when Miracles was all the rage, and having those and more mass removal is an idea. Deed could come into play, but it might be too much mana if you need to activate it for Swarm decks, instead of Entreat.

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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...8&d=1378267497 hi!

Also, I gotta post a report sometime this week! Won a 41 player tourney last saturday. I'll elaborate soon!

Hey guys!

I'm new here on TS, and have been playing with legacy jund for some months now (evolved from a for-fun list). My starting list ran what I thought to be the consensus at that point:

• 16 creatures (4 BBE, 0 ooze)
• 2 - 3 - 4 on Bolt, decay and PF
• 4 Liliana
• 4 TS and 3 Hymn
• 24 lands (4 grove, 4 waste, 8 fetch, 1 forest, 1 swamp, 3 Badlands, 2 Bayou and a singleton Taiga)

After a lot of playtesting I figured the 4th BBE was the card I'd less miss, if any, so I swapped it with a Scavenging Ooze. And I wanted to test Sensei/Library (went for sensei first), and that took a wasteland off my list.

Up to now my impressions are:

Ooze is ok, but I never feel I really need it. Either way, I'm mostly focused on playing/fetching badlands over Bayous for multiple pfire recurssion per turn. I'm probably ditching it.

Sesei was amazing. I know most players are not big fans of this guy, and I have yet to test library, but I can't really say it was bad, so... there you go. Some nice aspects are:

• gets around land disruption (:1:)
• has value as soon as enters the battlefield, unlike library
• should not (but will sometimes, horray) be targeted by removal

So, I'm not saying it's best, but I can assure it works pretty well. I'm aware of the library's build-in card advantage engine, wich top lacks.

My next move will probably be to cut top and add library to see how it goes. Also most likely bringing the 4th wasteland back, since there is no other way (lili's ultimate is somewhat rare and won't always hit what you really want) to deal with troublesome lands.

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I've noticed that some players here have tried to cut lightning bolts entirely, sounds wrong to me. I mean, as long as we can start ahead, we'll hardly lose that position later on, and bolt is one of the "few" one drops we have, being an aggro-control deck. Bolting delvers, moms and opposing DRS is what makes this baby shine, not to mention the fact it will deal with an enormous range of slower creatures in the format single-handedly.

Yet, I wouldn't go as far as trimming the Pfire count. Even being slower, they sound to me like one of the big reasons to play jund. A deck that can naturally draw the combo and make good use of it, clearing the path for goyfs and BBEs to steal the game.

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As for my sideboard, there has been a lot of change. I started with the 4th hymn in the side. It's no longer there, 4 is just too much IMO. Eplague is most likely coming back, since I realized it deals with too many annoying things beyond elves, goblins and lingering souls (humans on D&T and spirits on bloodghast decks). It hurts not to play maelstrom pulse among the 60, so I still try to fit it among the other 15, but it starts to feel too slow and pointless. Ancient grudge has been so very good to me, I would feel bad to go lower than 2. With 4 MB TS, I feel 3 duress is about enough as backup. REB/PB is cool and all, but I tend to keep only a couple, maybe I should cut that pulse for an extra one (and probably make sure to side BBE's out when they're in, I'm sick and tired of target-less REBs). Jitte is such an all-star it's hard not to play it, I try to use it in grindier matches. I have been testing choke, and can't really understand 3 in the sideboard... I can hardly figure what to side out for the first copy, generally BBE's or hymns and lilis. I did test Obstinate Baloth... never won me a game, even when discarded by opposing lili. Have been using 2 surgical and 2 nihil spellbomb as grave hate. Can't say I'm entirely satisfied, as I was used to 4 LotV and 2 surgical in my goblins sideboard, but I suppose that is as good as it gets (tormod's crypt sounds a bit attractive, since you could play DRS or discard and have it ASAP anyway).


Yeah, I guess that's about it. Be welcome to point out stuff that is wrong, I feel jund is the deck I wanna play whenever possible and the sooner I learn it's tricks, the better :)

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Originally Posted by jtos84

I remember reading an article Todd Anderson wrote where he explained how library can be good

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Do you have a link for this article?

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Originally Posted by Neffy

Do you have a link for this article?

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This is probably the one, although he is talking about its application in his invitational winning Canadian Threshold deck.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/s...n-Atlanta.html

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Originally Posted by BKclassic

This is probably the one, although he is talking about its application in his invitational winning Canadian Threshold deck.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/s...n-Atlanta.html

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Thank you

Looks like a sideboard discussing is due. It seems they vary a great deal - here is mine:

Surgical Extraction 2
Krosan Grip 2
Choke 3
Pyroblast 2
Duress 3
Umezawa's Jitte 1
Engineered Plague 2

I generally construct my SBs against certain situations:
- something that can take out artifacts. having DK helps a lot, but batterskull is a pain, and it is nice to take out Tops too - therefore Krosan Grip (former Ancient grudge that often were countered)
- something for graveyard decks. DRS is really good here, but i feel quicker answers like surgical extraction is necessary - especially against fast storm decks
- something to sweep the board of small creatures. E.Plague is sweet and easy to cast - yesteday i played UWR delver/pyromancer and one time i could name human and take out unflipped delver + pyromancer. The increased use of the latter makes it important for to have sweepers.
- something that helps even more against combo - our weak spot. I always take 3 duress, and am considering a 4th.

The rest is typically stuff i feel would help me in a pickle. Like pyroblasts against a jace. I am thinking of cutting these since they most likely will get countered anyway by ShowNTell decks and storm features little blue cards to use SB spots on them. Choke is a meta call with all the RUG and UWR around (its awesome, yesterday merfolk player taps out to play stuff, i play choke, he goes vial go, then i play BBE and cascade into decay taking out the vial. smoooth!)

Cards i am considering:
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 boom/bust
+1-2 electrickery

I am still losing to combo and also rest in peace, so i would love to hear about your sideboards.

A

Hello all! I'm new to The source, I just recently got into legacy with Jund, I have been playing the modern version of the deck since early RTR and decided to follow BBE into legacy.

I'm glad that there has been a lot of side board discussion as of recently as it's an area I feel my 75 is not very efficient in. I am having some questions about my list and I would like to hear what other Jund players thoughts are on the matter.

My local meta is pretty small, and has a lot of creature based strategies, I've elected to play 1 Jitte main board, but our local legacy scene is starting to run frequent monthly tournaments which are pulling in 30-40 people. And the amount of non creature based strategies is much higher there. Is Jitte worth having one in the main one in the side? Should I drop it to go up to my 4th Blood Braid Elf?

Now onto my sideboard and my questions there. I'm more so trying to build a sideboard for our larger local tournaments, but it seems like a pretty good sample of the meta as a whole. I can expect Goblins, Elves, and Fish, Belcher, ANT, Omnitell, Dredge, Miracles, Shardless, Doomsday, Team America, Stoneblade Ect....

My current board looks like
Duress x 3
Red Elemental Blast x3
Surgical Extraction x 3
Jitte x 1
Life from the Loam x 1
Engineered Plague x 2
Ancient Grudge x 2

with my main board being a pretty stock Punishing Jund list with the only unusual piece being 3 BBE main, 1 Jitte. But even that's not completely unseen on tournament reports.

How does this board look?
Is Ancient Grudge what I want? Or is Krosan Grip the current General Consensus? Also is it worth bringing in Ancient Grudge/KGrip vs Vial decks? or should we just rely on Abrupt Decay/Pulse?
Is Red Elemental Blast worth it vs ANT? Very little of their actual combo is blue, but we have a lot of dead cards in that much up I feel... should we try and filter some out and use left over mana to stop Brainstorms/Ponders in order to make our disruption stick longer? Or should I just stick to bringing in Surgical and Duress?
Slaughter Games? I've seen some people talk about it, and even seen it in a couple of successful lists. I was wondering what every ones thoughts about it were?

Finally, as I mentioned above I am very new to legacy and looking to not scrub out in our upcoming tournaments, but most of the players I frequently play against are players of "fair decks" I'm pretty familiar in those match ups, Fish Goblins, Stoneblade, Bug, ect ect...

But once I go up against the unfair decks Belcher, ANT, Show and tell variations I feel extremely lost. Mostly to not having seen them played a lot nor playing against them. Would some one mind giving me a rough synopsis of what I want to be doing in these match ups and what I should be siding in and out? How much mulligan is to much? Due to the nature of these decks I understand I can not keep "Fair" hands. And I pretty much have to be a blood hound for Thoughtseize/Hymn. Is it worth it go snap mull to 3 to find a t1 Thoughtseize? How far do you go until you settle?

Thanks for reading my wall, and I appreciate any advice!

I have always used 1 Ancient Grudge in my sideboard, and no matter what, I have had one in anything that had the gruul colors, in any format, Vintage, Legacy and Modern. That being said, I also used 1 Krosan Grip alongside it. I sometimes wrap it up Golgari Charm, and if there is space, 1 Maelstrom Pulse.

I like the variety each of these 4 cards provides. Ancient Grudge is probably the weakest of the four, but it's very quick, and can sometimes give you a 2 for 1. It's almost as uncounterable as Krosan Grip, except it does not hit enchantments.