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[QUOTE=Elfkid;800645]Hi there, I´m going to buy 2 Candelabra of Tawnos and I dont know if 2 is the correct number in a High Tide decklist and if its is optimal, any issues?
Reggards
Candles can really shine in certain matches, because you pay only 1 mana and after this your opponent has to deal with an activated ability (instead of 4 mana for Turnabout). It comes down to what you expect to face.
Infinite mana is always intreeging. How much do you have to invest to get there though?Quote:
Originally Posted by TiMeWaLk
With 4 island and only 2 High Tide, you have enough to start the combo. If you played a Candle and untap the 4 islands, you have 12 mana available. 6 manas for Capsize and 5 for untapping the 4 islands, that's 11. Each iteration gives 1 extra mana. Of course, you have to add 3 mana for the Wish (or 2 for Scroll post sideboard sometimes). It means you can start the combo if you have 14 (or 13) manas. I let you do the maths for 3 islands and 4 High Tide.
To this, I would like to add that if you play SDT, you have infinite draws with Capsize once you have infinite mana.
About my experience with such a setup, I found Brainfreeze very anecdotal once you are used to kill with BSZ all the time. Replacing BF with a bounce (an expansive one) like Capsize, which guarantee you the BSZ kill all the time but also deals with many annoying permanents is definitely worth it. My game plan, post Spiral, becomes to find a Candle + a Wish. I even go down to 1 Candle, post sideboard, and still manage to find it with all the draw spells etc...
TW.
The Capsize option is a lot of fun because you can bounce all their permanents before a Time Spiral so "just in case you fizzle" it's like they start all over too ha ha.
It also makes it go faster. I don't use Capsize because I actually find it less fun to just "go infinite", why I feel that way I don't know but I completely understand the Capsize, I might even run it as a 1 of in my sideboard sooner or later just to do it once.
As far as the infinite draw with Capsize and Sensei's Divining Top, does that work? I think I tried something like that once with a bounce spell and my opponent said because the top won't go on top, the draw part doesn't work and the whole ability fizzles. Basically tap to draw, then in response bounce the top, then the top goes to hand, then the ability resolves, but because the top is in hand instead it can't go on top, so the draw part fizzles is what I was told. Now I feel like doing some research to reconfirm what actually works and doesn't.
Whoever told you that is wrong. Once the Top is activated to draw, it doesn't matter if it gets blown up, bounced, or returns to the top of your deck. You will still get to draw the card.
Oh really, what about the similar trick using Turnabout, tap the top to draw, then use turnabout, then tap to draw again? Maybe that's the part I'm thinking of, it was a while ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by oarsman
oarsman is right.
Abilities only "fizzle" if all targets are illegal or if they are countered. All thats required to use top to draw, is to tap it. When the ability resolves, it does as much as it can. If you somehow didnt have a card in your library and a way preventing you from losing, top would get placed on top. If top somehow leaves the battlefield, the ability still does as much as it can and you still draw a card.
By this logic, with enough mana and capsize, you can basically turn top into a "free" storm creating, card drawing machine (Free in the sense of you have a trillion+ mana, 7 mana doesnt really matter each time.)
I think I may be putting a capsize in my board, just as a faster engine since I'm still not really fast with the deck.
@feline, It does work (same with your Turnabout trick).
To be honest, I do not consider the ability of killing faster from the Capsize tech to be relevant. If you train enough, you will manage to kill fast with HT (see how fast is feline). The reason why I run Capsize is because I do believe that it is just a better slot than Brain Freeze (BF). Most people will argue that it does not have the same purpose, but in practice it does (if you play candles). The reason why people use BF is because, from time to time, they want to kill faster (in my opinion, irrelevant), or they cannot make enough mana. Running Capsize solves both issues and bring also extra flexibility: it is an extra bounce spell that you can run in the main deck post side board! In match-ups like MUD, it is very nice to be able to pack an extra bounce spell, which is something BF would not have done... I could comment on more situations, where running Capsize can be decisive, but I would just advise to try it for while, in a version with 1 or 2 Sensei's divining top, it really shines even more. Btw, I do believe that running 1 or 2 SDT should become a standard in High Tide lists. If people are interested why, they can try to dig in this topic :wink:
TW
What is your last list TimeWalk ?
That works (add Candles to untap for extra fun). It also works with Voltaic Key if you have played MUD. What I am unclear on is whether you draw 2 cards, and then put Top back on top of your library, or if you draw card, put Top on top, and then draw Top as the second card. I'm pretty sure, since the sequence is:Quote:
Originally Posted by feline
Tap to draw
Response: untap and tap to draw again
The response goes on the stack first, you draw and then put Top on top. Then the original draw happens and you draw Top. Can anyone confirm if this is correct? I'm sure that two cards are drawn here, I'm just not 100% on Top itself being the second card.
I have not brought High Tide on a tournament for a while because of the unadapted metagame, and a lack of preparation from my side (you have to be in very good mental shape to bring this on a GP for example). However, I kept testing and improving the list I had success with in the past, and came up with this:Quote:
Originally Posted by P-E
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
12 Island
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
2 Flusterstorm
1 Swan Song
1 Pact of Negation (depending on the metagame, +1 Swan Song)
4 Force of Will
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Defense Grid
1 Capsize
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
1 Swan Song
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Intuition
1 Mystic Remora
1 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pact of Negation
The slot I like the less is Surgical Extraction in the sideboard, which could easily be removed. I am working (again) on a version which packs Counterbalance :laugh:
I think you are correct: you'll draw a card and top itself after it goes on the top of the library.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
However, of you have mana to spend, you can activate top's look ability after the first tap ability in order to draw two fresh cards and leave top as the first or second card of the library. Just put this sequence on the stack
tap top to draw
activate top to manipulate first 3 cards
cast turnabout to untap artifacts and let it resolve
tap top to draw again
The effects resolve as follow
draw a card, sensei goes on top
manipulate the first 3 cards
draw another card
If you have a second or third mana to spare you can manipulate even before the first draw and after the third.
Eternal Europe - No Candels, No Problem
Has anybody tried this list out? He has some good points, but you become more vulnerable to Wasteland.
Also, with advent of Spirit of the Labyrinth and all of the other hatebears in the format, Pyroclasm could be a card. It kills everything we see on the other side of the table that really troubles us: Deathrite, Delver, Ethersworn Canonist, Teeg, Thalia, Spirit. X-for-1s are always really nice, because any combination of the two is damn near unbeatable.
Edit: This also opens us up to Seething Song from the Wishboard, as well as Ancient Grudge (splashing a Trop, of course). Not sure if it's worth it, but the new options are sitting pretty right now. Counterflux is a card that just ends the counter war, but it may be too slow for Legacy.
Edit #2: Splashing a Trop also opens up Nature's Claim. With a deck that doesn't care about life totals, this may not be a bad idea for the permanent based hate out there now.
I was watching the SCG Open and the game where Feline bricked after the time spiral. Was wondering if Mana Severance has ever been considered as a 1 of in High Tide in order to create threat density since it makes every card draw pure gas for the most part. I do realize it can't be tutored with Merchant Scroll but still, seems like a way to increase consistency.
That list is obviously worse than High Tide. If you're hellbent on not buying candles for some reason....I guess it's ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by elijah
I tried to make pyroclasm work. The fact that you can't tutor for it at all makes it tough to use. You actually can win through Thalia pretty easily if you hit 5+ lands, and you will absolutely have time to make those land drops. Minimally you should be able to combo out to a point, bounce Thalia, then continue to combo.
Counterflux is only good if you're on defense, and even then three mana is a lot. There will never be a time where overloading is useful.
Before you give up hope on the PiF version, there's a list in the primer that went 7-2 out of 278 players: http://www.happymtg.com/decks/view/D051383 (The list incorrectly lists 4 Lightning Helixes in place of 4 Time Spirals). His latest list is here (sideboard is changed): http://www.happymtg.com/decks/view/D053151Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
The pilot, Aoyagi Motohiko, as well as others, ran the list to what looks like good success from other tournament results posted to happymtg over the last year and half.
I tested out Aoyagi's list on modo and resolving an intuition for some combination of Past in Flames + Turnabout/High Tide ends the game on the spot. As long as you can tutor up BSZ, which isn't hard once PiF is active, you end up having lethal BSZ mana without ever resolving Time Spiral.
Yes, it is susceptible to Wasteland, but I never fetched up the Volcanic until I needed to cast PiF. It also allows graveyard hate to shut down PiF, but it is only one card out of the 61 list. At the same time, it gives High Tide two ways to effectively combo off.
Having said that, Aoyagi has since switched to countertop.
It seems like this deck gets overwhelmed by multiple hate permanents (i.e. thalia + canonist, or liliana + confidant) since it can be very difficult to find more than one bounce spell before they kill you. "fair" decks also tend to overload on the sideboard hate from a variety of angles. has anyone tried adding a couple devastation tide, plus perhaps personal tutor? it seems like it could be very effective, especially in the versions with SDT. but perhaps it dilutes the deck too much?
Obviously worse????? I think you're discounting it too much. I honestly prefer it. With PiF youe essientially can't fizzle. The real benefit comes from being able to effectively run Intuition for full value, making the deck even more consistent and resilant to hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
Is there a drawback? In mind it only comes from wasteland, which you can usually play around. The candle version deck is already suseptable to most GY hate people are running. Yes, this version is slightly more but one could make an agruement the PiF version running intuition has more of a defense to mitigate the risk, i.e. Intuition for bounce or a counter. Plus there is the agruement that you can still win without PiF.
Try it. I havent looked back.