[Primer/Deck] Pox

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

I was suspecting this would happen. Original Mono-B Pox didn't use it's GY really and Loam Pox is like The Rock with Smallpox thrown in. It's not a 'true' use of Loam, which is waste lock, fetch land, and then tons of 'spell lands' and manlands to keep bombarding your opponent. DRS is a creature that can die. RiP in a B/G deck should easily be handled by Abrupt Decay, but I've found the strength in 'classic' Pox to be that it doesn't put all its eggs in one basket so to speak.

What I'm wondering is if you guys have found any strong lock pieces for Pox. Since we're a top-deck based deck, I've decided to almost carbon copy Reid Duke's idea of simply having STRONG permanents on the field after both players are hand empty and then ride that wave by having superior board presence.

Note, Sylvan Library and Sensei's Top are not superior board presence. Cursed Scroll + Liliana is. The idea is after Pox has done its thing, and the enemy doesn't have 3+ beaters for you, what do you do to ensure his top decks are just dead? The old Nether Void is quite nuts, and thankfully though pricey, you'd really only want one. Trinisphere works if your went hard on the land destruction route or makes your foe cry very hard off a Turn 1 Dark rit. Painful Quandry caught my eye as something to consider as a 1 of. I've had plenty of games where I ultimately lead to my 6th land. Tainted Aether from the board is quite nasty if played after the enemy's creatures are wiped out.

Are there any other lock out permanents Pox can run to practically auto-win games? Since I run Dark Rits, I'm crazy enough to consider spells up to 6 cmc, but like I asked, it should practically guaruntee a win on an empty board state.

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Difficulty to say. Some cards are autowin vs some decks but does nothing against others. You can divide the lock pieces of Pox in two types:

General scope: (MD strategy)
-Nether Void
-Trinisphere (actual meta)

Specific scope (usually on SB)
-Contamination
-Tainted Aether
-The Abyss
-Braids, Cabal Minion
-Chains of Mephistopheles
-Lethal Vapors
-Word of Waste

My personal best are:
-trinisphere
-chains of mephistopheles

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

@l@mbert101

Do you think you can get any use out of Zuran Orb? I have never had enough lands in play for such things. 12 post can ramp enough for such things but it doesn't look workable in Pox.

Btw, Dark Heart of the wood may be better.

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Dark Heart of the wood its not a viable choice, basically because of two things (explain later)
1) It cost you two manas
2) Works only with Forests

Zuran Orb is here mostly for the Mono Red and UR Delvers builds that packs a lot of burn spells and can drop your life total from 20 to 0 on a few turns.On these matchups you need to get rid of their T1 creatures (like delver and guide) and maintain a secure life total to avoid a big Price of Progress until you can manage to land a trinisphere or stabilize and control both board and hand. Zuran Orb works great here: Your 0 mana cost allow it to be played together with an innocent blood,smallpox or hymn, and trust me, getting rid of an flipped delver or guide in the same turn you drop Zuran Orb its nearly a Time Walk against these decks (explain reason 1).

Also, it can hit any land, not only Forests, interacting well with Life from the Loam/Crucible and helping avoiding a sneaky price of progress that can insta kill you.(that explain 2). I love to use Zuran Orb with factory, block a big creature and sac for additional 2 life.

Of course Zuran Orb are only present in the SB of Loam Pox builds and Monoblacks builds that run Crucible. Without that cards it lost a lot of power and is better replaced with Spinning Darkness.

Zuran Orb is cute, but rather superfluous most of the time. Unlike (43) Lands, we have no way to recur it if it is destroyed or countered, and no way to tutor for it. You would likely never see it when you needed it, and you would rarely be able to assemble the Orb + Loam/Crucible engine. Besides, it's really only useful against Burn, and that match-up is basically unwinnable. Why waste maindeck or sideboard slots on trying to shore up weaknesses against what is essentially a rogue deck?

Nether Void is our card against Burn; Spinning Darkness helps and isn't a brick in other match-ups, although I have reservations about running it in a B/G list.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

With Thoughtseize getting a reprint in Theros I am considering running it in my deck (assuming the prices go down). At the very least it should be a better sideboard discard than Duress.

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Here's hoping the price does go down :cool:. However, I wouldn't run it in Pox. My Rock deck would like it but paying life with 3 Pox in my deck was something I experimented with and failed horribly. The lifeloss in Smallpox is more bearable.

Saying it's better than Duress is a stretch. Thoughtseize is Duress with 2 life payment to hit creatures. If we have problems with creatures, discard shouldn't be our route.

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Originally Posted by lukazlml

Difficulty to say. Some cards are autowin vs some decks but does nothing against others. You can divide the lock pieces of Pox in two types:

General scope: (MD strategy)
-Nether Void
-Trinisphere (actual meta)

Specific scope (usually on SB)
-Contamination
-Tainted Aether
-The Abyss
-Braids, Cabal Minion
-Chains of Mephistopheles
-Lethal Vapors
-Word of Waste

My personal best are:
-trinisphere
-chains of mephistopheles

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CHAINS! Ah if only there was a budget replacement for it. Lethal Vapors... LoL :laugh: I'm reminded of Pillar Tombs of Aku. I'd run more goofy like Koskun Falls if I had more creatures.

since someone brought up painful quandary, a possibly powerful lockpiece, albeit on the fringe in the pox archtype..may i suggest desolation? i concede it would require a lot of tweaking and would be anti-synergistic with one of best our win-cons(cursed scroll), but it would totally wreck the opponents mana base, especially decks that run brainstorms, ponders, etc..i feel bloodghast would shine in such a build..maybe with a little help from dakmor salvage, crucible of worlds, etc.
i apologize if this may seem a lousy idea..

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

since someone brought up painful quandary, a possibly powerful lockpiece, albeit on the fringe in the pox archtype..may i suggest desolation? i concede it would require a lot of tweaking and would be anti-synergistic with one of best our win-cons(cursed scroll), but it would totally wreck the opponents mana base, especially decks that run brainstorms, ponders, etc..i feel bloodghast would shine in such a build..maybe with a little help from dakmor salvage, crucible of worlds, etc.
i apologize if this may seem a lousy idea..

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I ran Desolation main decked a long time ago using Phyrexian Totem as a mana supplement to keep me afloat and keep playing. One of my friends mentioned a joke regarding Winter Orb so I stuck that in alongside and then the deck started to feel like stasis. Crucible of Worlds helps a ton. Artifact mana sources will hurt if your enemy plays them but it worked well vs. decks that needed to tap lands. Just have to increase your creature kill spells to stop the little ones that get through.

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

since someone brought up painful quandary, a possibly powerful lockpiece, albeit on the fringe in the pox archtype..may i suggest desolation? i concede it would require a lot of tweaking and would be anti-synergistic with one of best our win-cons(cursed scroll), but it would totally wreck the opponents mana base, especially decks that run brainstorms, ponders, etc..i feel bloodghast would shine in such a build..maybe with a little help from dakmor salvage, crucible of worlds, etc.
i apologize if this may seem a lousy idea..

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You know, that's a pretty interesting idea. I do run two Crucibles and I have been wondering how to get more milage out of Sinkhole.

i tried it before using mox diamonds, dakmor salvages and crucible of worlds and it seemed to have worked well, but i need to playtest it more because i only tried it against a handful of decks..it hurts decks that uses top, cantrips, etc..
i had to change my threat suit though because it becomes painful to use ones that require an activation cost(cursed scroll)..instead i had to rely on recurring threats(bloodghast)..

with a trinisphere in play, it becomes a lock that is very hard to get out from..

I tried Desolation once and found it is necessary to put pressure on your opponent. Otherwise they will just sit and play land after land, negating the purpose of it all. Recursion is one way to do it, but it suffer from graveyard hate game two and three.
Black vise would have been a perfect compliment.

@hardcore
if you're not running liliana and hymn..then yes, black vise might be good with it..assuming its legal..

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

Saying it's better than Duress is a stretch. Thoughtseize is Duress with 2 life payment to hit creatures. If we have problems with creatures, discard shouldn't be our route.

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Thoughtseize is worlds better than Duress. The 2 life is a small price to pay to practically guarantee your spell will never miss. We need 1-mana discard maindeck to be able to survive in a format with TES, Show and Tell, etc. At the same time, the ability to hit creatures minimizes our dead draws game 1. (Try running Duress against Goblins.) While discard isn't the best way to combat creatures, it still helps, and we can't afford to run stuff like Innocent Blood maindeck, where it's a dead draw against non-creature decks. Besides, Thoughtseize can hit any creature, whereas allowing them to hit the table means having to diversify our answers (Abrupt Decay can't hit Geist of Saint Traft, Cursed Scroll can't hit Tarmogoyf, and Smallpox can't hit any fatty once your opponent pads out their board). Inquisition of Kozilek is similarly unplayable because it can't hit Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Batterskull.

Additionally, the life loss is really irrelevant; success hinges on stabilizing (read: immobilizing the opponent). If you think the 2 life off of Thoughtseize is bad, you should try playing Sylvan Library. I frequently find myself under 8 life before my opponent lands a threat (and I usually win those games).

+1

Karsten Kötters latest article discussed the concept of WYW; knowing what makes you win.
I asked a friend to make a quick analysis of my deck because I found hard to do that myself. He concluded it was a resource denial deck, which was no surprise actually, but his comparison to Delver decks was.

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Originally Posted by D0LPHY

While discard isn't the best way to combat creatures, it still helps, and we can't afford to run stuff like Innocent Blood maindeck, where it's a dead draw against non-creature decks.Inquisition of Kozilek is similarly unplayable because it can't hit Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Batterskull.

Additionally, the life loss is really irrelevant; success hinges on stabilizing (read: immobilizing the opponent). If you think the 2 life off of Thoughtseize is bad, you should try playing Sylvan Library. I frequently find myself under 8 life before my opponent lands a threat (and I usually win those games).

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I don't know what meta you're playing in, but Innocent Blood should never be dead. You're in a combo non-creature meta? I didn't think those existed, with Nimble Mongoose slapping my face everywhere I go. There's no way in hell a Pox deck should be without at least 2-3 Innocent Bloods until after sideboard. It's most known weaknesses are aggro and GY decks. They simply sac their weakest creature. Spamming more sacrifice spells is better than discard. Top deck a discard, if their hand is empty, you're dead. Top deck Innocent Blood, they don't have a creature to kill, you're winning most likely... :tongue:

My meta has a lot of creatures and bolts electrocuting people and Thoughtseize works better in a deck without life loss effects. Pox without Innocent Blood feels as bad as Threshold without Nimble Mongoose. You just don't do it. Llanowar Elf, Goblin Lackey, and DRS decks can't get enough Innocent Blood. Inquisition can beat Goblins and losing 2 life to Thoughtseize will get you killed vs. fast aggro. I've lived and died off of 2 life differences too often to say it's irrelevant, being both a Pox and threshold pilot

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

I don't know what meta you're playing in, but Innocent Blood should never be dead. You're in a combo non-creature meta? I didn't think those existed, with Nimble Mongoose slapping my face everywhere I go. There's no way in hell a Pox deck should be without at least 2-3 Innocent Bloods until after sideboard. It's most known weaknesses are aggro and GY decks. They simply sac their weakest creature. Spamming more sacrifice spells is better than discard. Top deck a discard, if their hand is empty, you're dead. Top deck Innocent Blood, they don't have a creature to kill, you're winning most likely... :tongue:

My meta has a lot of creatures and bolts electrocuting people and Thoughtseize works better in a deck without life loss effects. Pox without Innocent Blood feels as bad as Threshold without Nimble Mongoose. You just don't do it. Llanowar Elf, Goblin Lackey, and DRS decks can't get enough Innocent Blood. Inquisition can beat Goblins and losing 2 life to Thoughtseize will get you killed vs. fast aggro. I've lived and died off of 2 life differences too often to say it's irrelevant, being both a Pox and threshold pilot

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I totally agree with you. I've tested thoughtseize over IoK and even a split 2/2 and the 2 life loss is, without a doubt, HUGE. if you add this with fetchlands life loss(BG lists or just to filter the deck) and smallpox you are hitting yourself for at least 5 damage, 25% of your life. This percentage cannot be ignored in legacy. Stabilizng with 5 life against burn decks and even agroo decks its not "stabilize" in fact, since you can get in reach of a lot of 1cc threats. Why bother with Jace and Batterskull If you can deal with their hands via Hymn to Tourach and lower their lands with Sinkholes, Wastelands and Smallpox. I've played against UWR, Stoneblades a lot and most of the times, when they need to choose what to discard (via liliana or smallpox) they choose exactly these threats (Jace, Batterskull), since their don't have enough mana to cast it or don't have an active Stoneforge to put it on play..

Regarding Innocent Blood, for me ther is no discussion. IB is a must in a Pox deck. Its a 1cc removal for all the creatures in the actual metagame. A t1 innocent blood is huge against DRS, Lackey, Heritage, Delver. If you can keep the creatures count on the opp table in a small number ( wich is easy via smallpox, discards, land destruction,liliana, cursed scroll) your draw in IB will never be in vain. Of course, in a heavy combo meta you just swapped them for better hate in the SB.

When I moved to BG Pox build first I replaced 4 IB with 3 Abrupt, but i've missed so much IB that I have to found place for 2 in the MD. (Now I'm running 3 AD / 2 IB)

i agree..

about the only time they failed me was when i got beat down to death by an opponent who only has 2 lands in play(an island an a mutavault) while i was staring at the three copies of innocent bloods in hand :frown: but i think i was just unlucky because i've neither drawn into any sinkholes or smallpoxes to kill it nor did i see any mishra's factories' to block them..

i've sometimes tried replacing a couple innocent bloods with smothers and diabolic edicts but with all your "poxing" (especially if you're running BIG POX) and all the taxing counters(daze, spell pierce) running around; the one mana difference really makes a huge difference..

i've seen other mono-black lists that ran only 2 but personally i wouldn't go below 3..i used to run 4 but i replaced one of them with spinning darkness and its been serving me very well so far..

the only time i would run less than three is when i'm running tombstalkers, because i've found myself in awkward situation in the past where they got stuck in my hand because i have the demon in play..if i were to run tombstalker again, i would probably go between a 2-2 split between innocent blood and smother..and remove the spinning darkness maindeck because of its anti-synergy with the stalkers..

i can see why the B/g version can afford to run only 2 copies of it since it has access to abrupt decay..but in mono black, i feel 3 is the right number(i'm currently not running tombstalker)..

I like to use 1 Thoughtseize in addition to the 4 Inquisition when I can fit it in, but I wouldn't go for more than 2 of them even if you were to repace an Inquisition for another one.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

I don't know what meta you're playing in, but Innocent Blood should never be dead. ... There's no way in hell a Pox deck should be without at least 2-3 Innocent Bloods until after sideboard.

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Originally Posted by lukazlml

Regarding Innocent Blood, for me there is no discussion. IB is a must in a Pox deck.

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I should have clarified. Innocent Blood is a fantastic card, and a cornerstone of mono-black Pox, but it has always been a brick against combo, and its one-sidedness is symptomatic of mono-black Pox's problems in general. I'm not arguing that Thoughtseize should take the place of Innocent Blood, but rather should take the place of Duress, since being able to hit creatures with discard (especially enablers like Deathrite Shaman, Goblin Lackey, Stoneforge Mystic, etc.) reduces the need for cards like Innocent Blood. Once you splash green, Abrupt Decay rapidly outclasses Innocent Blood; it's much more versatile, and is even less likely to be a 'dead draw'. Dividing your removal suite between targeted removal and 'edict' effects, combined with library manipulation, allows you to have the "right" removal for each situation ('edicts' against shroud creatures; Decay against one big creature surrounded by little ones). With regard to Thoughtseize being a dead draw late-game, that is simply the nature of discard. It's unfortunate, but we need 1cc discard to combat combo. Also, Inquisition of Kozilek is weak not merely because of Jace and Batterskull (those are merely the most glaring examples). It also can't grab Tendrils of Agony, Ad Nauseam, Dream Halls, Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, Empty the Warrens, Time Spiral, Bloodbraid Elf, Goblin Ringleader, Siege-Gang Commander, Natural Order, or Sneak Attack (a big problem for us), among other bombs.

Of course, these considerations are meta-game dependent, and if your meta-game favours creatures, run Innocent Blood. For reference, the following decks make Innocent Blood a dead draw: Omni-tell, A.N.T., T.E.S., High Tide, Belcher, Dredge (usually), U/W Miracles (usually), Pox (!), and Lands, not to mention anyone who resolves Lingering Souls. I'd be loathe to run Innocent Blood or cards like it maindeck unless absolutely necessary given the prevalence of the first two decks in today's metagame. Besides, against Tribal- and Aggro-heavy metas, why not run Ensnaring Bridge or Infest? 4 Smallpox and 4 Liliana are enough sac-effects.

It's been a while since I checked in. Thanks for the feed back guys, much appreciated! :smile:

As for the discussion here, have you guys tried main decking Darkblast + Infest in addition to Innocent Blood (mono B lists)? It seems to help out a lot, especially with all these quasi Esper/Deathblade lists. I've had some success, but obviously luck plays in the top deck game, so I can't say for sure without someone else to help test with me. Here's the updated list since I last asked for some revision help:

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nether Spirit
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Dark Ritual
1 Darkblast
1 Entomb
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Infest
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal (Deals with Soul Tokens, Snapcasters, Bobs, Cliques, Pyromancers, etc G1)
1 Raven's Crime
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
1 The Rack
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mishra's Factory
11 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Dystopia
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb

As for Thougthseize vs. IoK, it really comes down to whether or not you're expecting to see bolts or direct damage options across the other table. I don't have problems against UWR Miracles and other similar control/combo lists, but against RUG, I'd rather stick with IoK.