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Hot in 30+ games?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90
I think this matchup is still 60/40 BUGs favor despite running hot. There's really no need to discuss this match all too much. The matchups we need to focus on more are elves, dnt, and miracles and how to beat these decks.
The killer card against D&T is Massacre. Casts for 1 under Thalia and wipes their board except for Grimaz and whatever they choose to bounce. The Flickerwisp they bounce with dies also.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Yeah unfortunately, it has the side effect of killing our own Delvers, Deathrites, and TNNs too.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggroControl
My preference is still Golgari Charm for its general usefulness, but if you want something specific to fight D&T, I prefer Dread of Night for its continuous one-sided effect.
What do the 2 cage do in the match up against Cloudpost? Any crop rotations or Primeval Titan triggers don't get affected since its only creatures that are restricted from entering play in Grafdigger's Cage's clause. It doesn't affect Eye of Ugin or Expedition Maps either since that searches and places into the Hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by nditiz1
I second what Esper said, Dread of Night is huge game vs. DnT. Also brings Serra Avengers into Disfigure range, too.
I'm looking for some help filling out my sideboard for SCG-DC, I'm running a pretty stock list (20 land, 2 Lili, mostly 4-ofs) except a Vendilion Clique and a Sylvan Library in the place of the 2 Tombstalkers. TS is great, but he's horrible against white decks and combo decks and I often find myself boarding him out. My sideboard is as follows:
2x Disfigure
1x Envelop
2x Golgari Charm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Spell Pierce
1x Vendilion Clique
2x FLEX
In the past, these spots have been: Dread of Night, Jace, extra Disfigure/Dismember, Jitte, Life from the Loam, Surgical Extraction, Submerge, Stifle, even Divert. I went 3-3 drop at SCG Baltimore after facing no combo decks (not sure if I was just really unlucky on that front) and am wondering if anyone knows the DC meta well enough to be able to help me sort out these last two spots. I've seen it kicked around a lot in this thread but I really like 1 Jace SB for those grindy matchups- I realize it's not quite our axis of attack but he's such a huge threat on his own and with our high threat density, being able to just free Brainstorm each turn is huge.
Goyf owns though and if you are playing Tombstalker (which I don't) you have another big beater and one that is easy to cast after a turn 3 Massacre. The problem I have with Dread of Night is that it is too narrow as a sideboard card. Outside of D&T almost nobody uses x/1 white creatures. Massacre also works against UWR Delver, hitting every creature in their list except the token under Batterskull. It works against Esper Stoneblade. It works against many Painter lists including Imperial Painter, which is the toughest right now. No mana to cast it means you can wipe their board under a Moon effect and if Magus was the effect you are back in business, you do have to play a basic swamp in the list though to have this option. It sweeps Merfolk in the mid-game as long as you can spot remove a lord or Cursecatcher on the turn before you cast it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
It just has a lot more value than Engineered Plague or Dread of Night at the moment. It has more value than Golgari Charm as a sweeper but not as a control device.
I do not like Massacre for us at all. Yes Goyf survives, but it still kills at least 2/3 of our threats. It's decent against the SFM decks, but batterskull is the main threat we really care about anyway. We already run the Golgari charms for their utility and similar effect, but if you think DnT is a big part of the meta Dread of Night is way better. If not, Toxic Deluge kills at least the same stuff, can be controlled to let your x/2s live, and can even take out the pesky Germ token. I also think resolving a Massacre against Painter with a Blood Moon effect out is extremely narrow. We need a basic Swamp in play and they need a basic PlainsQuote:
Originally Posted by AggroControl
I wasn't thinking about a local meta. I was thinking about a bigger competition. I actually have 2 D&T players out of the 10 to 12 regulars I play every Friday night. I don't like Dread of Night even in that scenario because it does nothing against any other list I face regularly, which include BUG Control, BUG Delver, UWR Delver/RUG Delver, Elves, Miracles/SnT, EsperBlade, Dark Depths Suicide and Lands/Imperial Painter depending on what the guys decided to run that night. I think that list is a good simile of the current meta, although missing Storm Combo, Burn and Shardless Control.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobart
You're right about it being hard to resolve Massacre against a resolved Blood Moon but it is possible with a DRS. All you need is the swamp because most Moon lists, including Imperial Painter, run no removal except for REB's with a blue Painter in play. If Painter and Moon are both on the board, well that's a really tough road and if I do not have them low with a resolved threat I'll scoop and go to the next game.
I brought it in against Green Sun Zenith mainly, but it also stops the second coming of moment's peace. I also didn't know how the deck operated except it cast big dudes, for some reason I was thinking T&N. I never really got to see the deck do anything except crop rotate, repeal my delver, spin top, cast fog.Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowhunter007
Aha! I'm more familiar with the G/U versions of the deck that don't generally run Green Sun's and don't always have that many moment's peace either. Makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by nditiz1
I am loving Null Rod. Played it last week, won me two games, played it last night, won me a game. It's just too good to cut. Also with so many sideboard cards being Artifacts, it can really help. Cliqued an Aggro Loam player to find him holding a fist full of Grave hate and an EE he could not use. Love that card.
Ya null rod has won me a game against Esper stoneblade when he dropped a relic of prog. Also helped me win against stupid jittes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Greetings All!
Dragonslayer_90 and I played some legacy locals this week. We were both playing BUG Delver. I ran basically the same list I posted a page or two back. Here is a refresher...
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dimir Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Gilded Drake
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Submerge
We played five rounds this week. I played against Dan with 12Post, winning (2-1); Mike with Merfolk, winning (2-1); Ian with Merfolk, winning (2-1), Matt? with ANT, draw (1-1-1), and Paul with Goblins, winning (2-1). Yes, I did draw with my ANT opponent in round four. I we had a very grindy game two. I was in really good shape in game three but alas... I needed two turns to finish him off, (I had some counter magic left too!). So I ended 4-0-1 and ended in first place overall. Dragonslayer_90 was playing a similar list and ended 3rd, so a pretty solid evening. As for the deck itself, the Spell Pierces felt pretty good versus ANT. Additionally there was some Sneak and Show and some High Tide in the room. I sided on running the Spell Pierce over Flusterstorm as my current configuration is rather soft to Blood Moon and similar effects. As phazonmutant stated last week, Jace, the Mind Sculptor is a meta specific card. Currently I am not convinced that the meta at my LGS warrants running one in the maindeck. I think one in the sideboard is likely fine; however, there were a number of game ones where it was a struggle to get him into play to stabilize. Additionally I felt that there were a number of times where I would draw a Hymn to Tourach and want basically anything else. Has anyone given any thought to 3 vs 4 Hymn? Multi-Hymn draws are sweet against most combo decks and slower midrange decks, but against some of these creature heavy decks I find the results polarized. On the play it seems powerful while on the draw it is a 2-for-1 but doesn't affect the board. So you could Hymn your opponent's hand away and still die to the guys already resolved. Just wondering if anyone else has done any testing here. I think the deck felt pretty strong overall but against all of these tribal/aggro decks the lack of maindeck Disfigure was noticed. Anyway thanks for reading!
Hey man. I think Hymn is important in tribal matchups like merfolk and goblins since their gameplan necessitates them to assemble a critical mass of dudes to kill you usually. It doesn't affect the board yes, but it still goes with the gameplan of denying them resources long enough for us to kill them. If you want to side out hymn against these decks you would probably need to add more removal than you would want to in your sb since the first thing to go is most of your counterspells since they are worse for the most part than hymn I think. If you feel like you're drawing hymn more than you like it is perfectly reasonable to go to 3 though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
As for my route to third it went thusly: R1 ANT (2-0), R2 Rbw Goblins (0-2), R3 UG Cloudpost (2-0), R4 High Tide (2-0), R5 Merfolk (2-0). I tried having two spell pierce in the main because from what Sturtzilla told me the meta at our LGS seemed combo heavy. I have just came back for school so I haven't played at this LGS in a while. Last time he played there first and second went to high tide and sneak and show. Now the field was half combo but I, myself, had a lot of matchups where spell pierce was pretty bad. Game one against Goblins in particular I drew too many useless counterspells. Definitely going back to my two disfigure main deck. It seems like my combo matchup game one is good enough between force, daze, hymn, and lili. Probably going to try maindecking a toxic deluge or two like wcm8 has been doing since our meta has a good amount of tribal and add a basic swamp to the sideboard to fight blood moon effects. Got screwed over by Magus of the Moon out of goblins game 2. It was not a good time:cry:
Hymn is great if you are at parity in these match ups. When you have the luxury of attacking an opponent's hand, slowing down their assault by attacking their hand is great. However when they are on the play and/or get ahead on board, it may slow their clock but you are still likely to die. It is not that you are not doing anything, but attacking their hand may or may not buy you more turns. I see these match ups to come down to what each player gets into play (and sure Hymn can help). I am just not sure you always have a chance to cast Hymn. Overall I like it one the play, but less so on the draw. I am interested to hear what others think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90
Grenzo, Dungeon Warden activations to put Magus of the Moon or Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (in addition to basically every other dude in the deck) into play... spicy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90
The best BUG colored card I've encountered for Tribal matchups is Toxic Deluge. It's sort of expensive in a Delver list, but it's also generally a blowout when you get it.
I've gone between 2, 3, and 4 Hymn, but I feel that 4 is the strongest for my build. I'm playing 13 creatures in the main and no TNNs. Also here to stay is 4 Ponder. That's what I had originally, and I've been back on 4 Ponder for months now, and it's fantastic. It makes the whole deck better. It's often OK to shave a Hymn on the draw, I feel. I frequently side out some number of Dazes on the draw, and usually FOWs against any matchup that's going to come down to card advantage. The exception is if the deck has a key bomb I need to stop. I recently tried dropping Thoughtseize from the main, and it's been successful so far. I played in a 37-person tournament over the weekend and was X-0-0 going into the penultimate round, but the tournament was misrun, having one less round than normal, so that made drawing complicated. I was sitting in 1st place and offered my opponent, in 2nd, a draw. He declined, so we played it out. I won Game 1, then got Blood Mooned out the next two games. (He was on RW Painter.) A friend and I got paired in the last round, and we had a very good chance of both making it into Top 8 if we drew, so we decided to draw. He got 7th. I got 9th. Oh well. Next time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturtzilla
Thanks for the reply. Just curious, what is your creature configuration? I have been also thinking about bringing the 4th Ponder back. As for sideboarding, I think shaving a Hymn is solid. Against tribal decks like Merfolk and Goblins, I basically cut all of my counter magic. They just have too many ways to make your counterspells dead (namely Aether Vial and Cavern of Souls). If I am on the play, I might leave a pair of Dazes. On the draw, I don't really like any of the counter magic. It all just feels clunky. Sorry about your bad draw... better luck next time! :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by ESG
Hymn is so backbreaking against so many decks, I would always want 4 in my opening 60. Yes, there are going to be times where I cut one or two, but in that opening 60, I want that card. Get two back to back... Ouch.
Honestly, the place I made cuts was in the number of Force, from 4 to 3. Added in Library and called it a day. My Meta is so full of Midrange and Control right now I feel that is the best list. But if I was going into an unknown situation, I think I would be likely to cut s Stalker or Decay (dependent on what I was adding in with the Decay) before I would look at Hymn.
I'm a fan of Hymn vs the tribal decks as well. Yes, it sucks to draw late game against them, but since those decks don't run Brainstorm / Ponder to smooth out their draws, I feel it's important to get them into topdeck mode as quickly as possible and allow the consistency of our deck to take over the game.