Have you guys considered cutting your kills and an Enchantress and going back to Living Wish?
You throw in the infinite combo with Celestial Dawn or 2x Exploration+green mana artifact and you've gained a little more consistency.
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Have you guys considered cutting your kills and an Enchantress and going back to Living Wish?
You throw in the infinite combo with Celestial Dawn or 2x Exploration+green mana artifact and you've gained a little more consistency.
I tried this for some time. It sucked. It's just too mana intensive to make your engine get going, and living wish is a card you don't want to see if your engine is already running. It's not an enchantment too.Quote:
Originally Posted by waSP
Which slots should the combo take?Quote:
Originally Posted by waSP
And BTW, I see no combos in Celestial Dawn and "2 Explorations + green mana artifact". Can you explain that please?
Board is WoW and 3 Enchantress effects (2 if you have Trade Routes), 2 Explorations and a bunch of random enchantments.
Also, Green mana artifact such as Darksteel Ingot or Talisman of Unity or even Pentad Prism.
Play a random enchantment activating Words twice. Bounce Sanctum and Exploration. Play the Sanctum. First Exploration gets used. Play the second one using your green mana artifact. Bounce the artifact and the used Exploration and Sanctum. Repeat ad infinitum.
The combo with Celestial Dawn is a little hairier but is a little easier to set up. Get a bunch of white mana via Sanctum. Cast Celestial Dawn bouncing Exploration and Sanctum. Cast Exploration bouncing Celestial Dawn and a non-enchantment permanent (artifact or white creature). Play the Sanctum. Tap for white and cast non-enchantment permanent and Dawn, bouncing Sanctum and Exploration.
A third route (the least successful for me) is to run a Cradle in the sideboard and have 2 Argothians out and do the first combo with Cradle instead of the green mana artifact.
In Type 1 it was so much simpler to just play Treva's Ruins or Academy with Fastbond and Trade Routes and Confinement out :-/
So you need WoWind, Celestial Dawn AND a kill condition? That seems like a waste of deckspace. For those slots I could run 3 independent kill conditions and not worry about Extirpate, or 1 kill condition, an extra Replenish and, say, a Sylvan Library, and improve the control match-up.
Living Wish sounds good, but it's just too much mana, and requires too much in terms of how you have to alter the list.
Would you run 7 Argothian Enchantress if they were available?
Also, you don't need a kill condition. You need a Living Wish. You'll have at least 2 extra of these and if you don't manage to accidentally draw one before you go infinite, you can do it afterward.
I run Vineyards, so the mana isn't a big issue in getting an Enchantress down turn 2.
4 mana enchantress that won't even draw me a card and gets fucked by Counterbalance? That looks sucky to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by waSP
And of course we don't need a kill condition. We should deck ourselves every game. Much better than playing a real game.
Living Wish is your kill condition. You can run Dimir Guildmage in the sideboard or Flamewave Invoker or something.
waSP: You've mentioned three infinite mana combos:
2 Exploration + Green mana artifact
- this uses an artifact :/
- to get this going you need:
I'd rather have WoW and 3 Enchantress effects and 2 Exploration, when WoW stands for Words of War. That way, I don't even need another bunch of random enchantments to win, just one Enchantment in hand.Quote:
Board is WoW and 3 Enchantress effects (2 if you have Trade Routes), 2 Explorations and a bunch of random enchantments.
2 Exploration + Gaea's Cradle
- you need to run Gaea's Cradle in the board, which is a wasted slot.
- you need to run Living Wish
- you need two Argothian Enchantresses on the board. Engineered Plague exists, Devastating Dreams too.
Celestial Dawn combo
- this is dependant on Serra's Sanctum. Vulnerable to Wasteland.
- Celestial Dawn a blank if you don't have Sanctum.
Most important thing: To get all of these going, you need Words of Wind + Enchantress effects in play. Why is this better than Words of War + Enchantress effects, which wins on its own?
What Jaiminho said.Quote:
Would you run 7 Argothian Enchantress if they were available?
Run Utopia Sprawls and Wild Growths and maybe Elvish Spirit Guides. Stuff that doesn't help your opponent.Quote:
I run Vineyards, so the mana isn't a big issue in getting an Enchantress down turn 2.
EDIT: Does this combo even work?
*snip*
Second EDIT: Yes, it works. Reading cards ftw.
Isn't stuff like Earthcraft + Wild Growth + Words of Wilding much easier to get unlimited mana? And Auratog + Rancor as a draw engine?
A good friend of mine had an enchantress deck with this, and it worked real good, but he dropped it all for a more traditional list because it has more answers to various match-ups. Playing combo in Enchantress makes it Solitaire: you're playing a 1-sided game, and if your opponent jams your cogwork (like the aforementioned counterbalance), you're screwed.
That's a great plan except for the part where you show up to a tournament and they DQ you for having Earthcraft in your deck. (Which, for the record, deserves to be banned about as much as Land Tax does, but eh.)
Here's a question:
Why would you need infinite mana?
I can win in one turn with 15. Without running bad cards.
Living Wish =/= Argothian Enchantress, so talking about running 7 Enchantresses is just bogus.
Why would I need infinite mana? I don't. I need 10 mana. And then I have a kill mechanism.
Also, are you killing with Words of War? 'cause you need to draw 10 cards in that case as well.
Bogus means not to your taste, yeah? How can Solitaire be consistent with just 8 ways to get Enchantress. Unless you guys are searching for it with Sterling Grove.
Sterling Grove is valuable for being a needed tutor in the early game and needed protection in the late. Else, we should simply run Greater Auramancy. When you want, grove is a 2+1 mana Enlightened Tutor that can draw you cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by waSP
Solitaire is too easy to maintain, be it on Replenishes, Grove tutoring for whatever you need, multiple Solitaires... there is a always a way to keep it going.
Because by keeping the curve low and the enchantment count high, and playing 4x Ground Seal, I can mulligan aggressively for what I need and rely on the explosveness on the deck to make up the card loss. I also have Grove, Library, Grass and Replenish as back up.
And drawing 10 cards isn't a problem.
When has WoW ever sucked? I would always run at least one. Now I do like the flexibility of Living Wish. Grabbing a needed land, a win con, and an engine/combo piece. The problem with it is space and cutting enchantments for the engine. Also, it slows the deck down so I think it would only find a home in a more controlling build with Moats and a high curve.
Well my point kind of was, even if the combo was broken, the other build was better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
Thats just untrue. Rancor is a dead card most of the time, and Auratog is useless because it opens you up to spot removal, in exchange for winning when all ready in a winning position. The combo also takes up more slots.
Auratog? Rancor? Plain awful! You can't do much worse. People really tend to underestimate the power of spot removal in Legacy. Not only is Auratog VERY vulnerable to just anything it's also not tutorable and got very bad synergy with the occasional Moat. And unlike WoW (which at least draws cards) Auratog does just nothing on its own. And so does Rancor (which can't be casted wo/ Tog)!
My guess is that people advocation Auratog also wanna implement Living Wish which will lead to a _much_ slower and more inconsistent version of Enchantress.
Enchantress can't get any slower than it already is. We are always on the edge of dying when we lock our opponent down. If you want to slow it further by making draws less consistent by the risk of drawing into non-enchantments and by having to pay 4 mana or 2 mana over 2 turns to get a single an enchantress effect going, you will get overrun by almost every clock in the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Exactly what they said. People need to not confuse consistency in terms of getting an Enchantress effect into play, and consistency in terms of winning.
While, generally, the latter requires the former, the former need not guarantee the latter.