Whenever i play this deck i die to graveyard removal. What do you guys do on the draw against a tormod's crypt in play? Just scoop?
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Whenever i play this deck i die to graveyard removal. What do you guys do on the draw against a tormod's crypt in play? Just scoop?
Kap'n Cook, on first though that might be the best kill I have seen for the deck.
JanoschEausH, if you are having that much trouble against a crypt, you are playing badly or using a poor version of the deck. You beat crypt the same way you beat other hate cards, with grand abolisher. Now rest in peace is different, and going to be much harder.
Just bounce it EOT.
Oh my god, that kill is baller.
Only that since the deck runs 1 Abolisher main we can sub Azami out for the Hapless Researcher (thank you errata for making this fucker a Human), which brings us to this;
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Hapless Researcher
1 Laboratory Maniac
This deck doesn't care about life, doesn't really give a crap about post-DR removal, and has the awesomeness that is Hapless Researcher, who allows you to throw away combo pieces stuck in your hand.
Brilliant. Now if only this deck didn't suck.
@oarsman
Thanks for the compliment. I'm not sure if anyone thought of the Angel kill before me. If they did then props.
Some things to note about this kill.
1) It dodges at least 1 removal spell since you have 2 human wizards to return to the field to draw a card. (Make it two removal spells since some decks run a venser)
2) Cephalid Illusionist is also a Wizard, so make that 3 removal spells required.
3) It dodges leyline of sanctity/ensnaring bridge postboard.
4) With Maniac mainboarded, it's much easier to board into painter to either grind your opponent or yourself.
5) And as JMLL already mentioned, Grand abolisher is also returned by the Angel
edit: Didn't see Kanti's post before making mine. Is running the 1 of Hapless Researcher over Azami that much more useful?
It's probably a lot better. Getting stuck with combo pieces in hand with this deck is a huge liability, and will make you lose games.
Imagine you have DR and Azami in your hand. Now imagine you have DR and Hapless Researcher.
Since you are returning Abolisher it really doesn't matter how much removal the opponent has. Pretty sweet.
I honestly think this deck would do better if it was Cephalid Life vs Breakfast. Infinite life is amazing, and the combos merge seamlessly, especially with Living Wish.
I think you're right about hapless. I'll do some testing of this kill. And to anyone else still playing this deck I encourage them to try out the Angel as well and post findings/critiques/etc
My friend and I took this new kill to the local last week. He played it in Breakfast (faster but less stable manabase and weak to removal pre-combo), I played it with Basalt Monoloth/Mesmeric Orb for the mill (2-colour manabase, slower, immune to removal).
He went 3-1 and I went 3-0-1 - my friend says his only loss against Dream Halls was because he rushed the combo instead of pulling the trigger on some Cabal Therapy action to clear out the Ravenous Trap it turns out the Dream Halls player had. I beat the same Dream Halls player by holding the combo until I drew a Thoughtseize/Therapy to strip his hate.
The kill is fantastic, it seems. Leaving aside graveyard hate, once you've successfully resolved Dread Return it only seems to lose to Stifle on the Angel's triggered ability or Torpor Orb. With Grand Abolisher it's immune to removal and bounce. It beats janky things like Sundial of the Infinite, as it can't be activated with Abolisher on the board. If MUD/Reanimator is playing or sideboarding Platinum Angel or if they have something like Null Rod or Stony Silence on the board, include Venser (a Human Wizard) in the sideboard to bounce said troublesome permanent and win.
I concede that Breakfast still has the pre-combo and mid-combo problems of removal, bounce and graveyard hate, but with the new kill it's a much more viable deck dodging almost all hate once you've resolved Dread Return.
If anything, the deck may now benefit most from being set up to play 4 vials with the intention of having 2 counters on Vial, putting Abolisher on to the battlefield, hard-casting both combo creatures and winning. Counters and bounce can then be saved for permanent hate such as Crypt, Relic, Needle, Revoker and troublesome cards such as Humility. Upping the Abolisher count may be the best thing for the deck, given that it's protects the combo and is also bear that can beat down.
My friend and I will tune his list tomorrow and see how we go this week.
I'm trying this deck in a budget variant with white splash. I haven't got all cards yet, but when I test it I will report to you.
The plan is simple, drop shuko or nomad, then get to 3 lands, silence and cast Illusionist.
Here is my decklist:
4x Cephalid Illusionist
4x Nomads En-Kor
4x Silence
4x Shuko
4x Narcomoeba
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
2x Muddle the Mixture
2x Spell Pierce
4x Dispel
1x Angel of Glory's Rise
1x Dread Return
1x Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1x Laboratory Maniac
1x Phantasmagorian
4 Ardakar Wastes
8 Island
7 Plains
sb:
4x Defence Grid
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Daze
3x Echoing Truth
I have only one problem with it, it has 19 lands and I need solid 3 land drops for my plan to work. What would you drop if you were me?
What does your current list look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by pandaman
What about the new kill in a Grand Abolisher heavy deck:
Land
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Flooded Strand
1x Island
1x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
Sorcery
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Dread Return
3x Ponder
Artifact
3x AEther Vial
4x Shuko
Creature
1x Angel of Glory's Rise
1x Azami, Lady of Scrolls
4x Cephalid Illusionist
3x Grand Abolisher
1x Laboratory Maniac
3x Narcomoeba
2x Nomads en-Kor
Instant
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lim-Dul's Vault
Sideboard
3x Dark Confidant
2x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Spell Pierce
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Flusterstorm
The manabase is not yet 100% satisfactory, but the rest looks fast and consistent and does no bleed into too many unwanted colors and with Lim-Dul's Vault usually has a safe turn3 kill.
The best thing is that even Dark Confidant is a human wizard.
I highly recommend putting the fourth aether vial in the deck. I only played three at first myself, but it is a mistake. The most powerful thing you can do is vial in Grand Abolisher and then drop the combo to win on the same turn. This works with cavern of souls also, but it is dificult to assemble enough lands to do everything at once.
Breakfast took 22nd at Baltimore running the mimeoplasm kill with abolishers main. I am curious if they knew about the angel kill and liked mimeoplasm better. Is there any real reason to not run the angel?
You should be running the Angel kill, no reason not to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
I play with 3 Abolishers main, and a 4th side. (Running my old Mental Misstep Era list). My only problems are with Jund (DRS, Decay, Bolt + clock) and people who have hate from left field. Abolisher is amazing in 99% of situations and you really need to run at least 3 maindeck (with 4 vials) to even have a chance. I'm also running 4 E's Call so finding 3 creatures to combo with Nomads + Illusionist + Abolisher is easy sauce.
I just thought about this deck the other day after not playing it for a LONG time. I agree with the adoption of the Laboratory Maniac wincon & also that Hapless Researcher is likely better than Azami, Lady of Scrolls if you're running Grand Abolisher.
My question concerning the list most recently posted above is why run x4 Shuko over Nomads en-Kor? Since we have Aether Vial and possibly Cavern of Souls to make creatures uncounterable, why lean on the artifact? If nothing else, additional bodies allows better use of Cabal Therapy.
I also think that a single Shaman en-Kor is worth running, at least if you're running Cavern of Souls, as it is a Cleric, which happens to be one of the types of Grand Abolisher as well. Plus, it gives you an out around anything that would shut down your Nomads (Pithing Needle, Surgical Extraction, etc.).
When I last played this deck, I was splashing Green for Worldly Tutor and Eladamri's Call. I don't think the splash is really necessary and would prefer to avoid it, but I'm not sure what type of filtering is best. Obviously, Brainstorm is a must, as it allows us to get Narcomoebas, Dread Return, Lab Maniac, etc. out of our hand and back into our library, which is where we want them until we combo off. Ponder seems OK, but I wonder if Preordain is actually better in this deck, as it allows you to scry any of the "need in library" cards to the bottom while digging for the Cephalid Illusionist and targeting effect. Lim-Dul's Vault seems sweet, but it's also a "pet" card, so I have a hard time evaluating it clearly, as it always feels so awesome when it works out, but I think I might downplay its occasionally less than desirable performance (its inclusion also makes Cavern of Souls a little more awkward).
My last quandary is about what disruption to include. Cabal Therapy seems nice, though it would be better if we ran Gitaxian Probe, but I don't think we really want cantrips that have us drawing blind. Force of Will seems like a no-brainer, assuming we maintain a high enough Blue count. The card I'm most unsure of is Daze. Its nice as a "free" counter and all, but if we don't have the Vial draw, it potentially sets back our clock and it makes it harder to keep hands that include Cavern of Souls (though maybe the answer is to just not play the Cavern).
Two comments concerning the sideboard:
First, I think that a single Crippling Fatigue is worth running again, as some of the Stoneblade/Esperblade/UWr Delver lists have started to play Meddling Mage.
Second, I wonder if trying to have the "Life" combo in the board is a worthwhile endeavor, as a way to fight opposing graveyard hate and to play mind games with opponents who become aware of the possibility. That being said, gaining infinite life doesn't win you the game if you end up decking yourself and against a field with Sneak and Show and other decks playing Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (or, to a lesser extent, Blightsteel Colossus) just gaining infinite life and saying, "OK. I have more cards in my library, I win." doesn't really work.
This is obviously a lot to digest, but I think the deck shows promise. It has a lot of the power of Oops, All Spells with much more consistency and the ability to fight through disruption.
So, I realize I'm posting two in a row, but I've had some further thoughts about the deck.
Perhaps it's best if I just post a tentative list:
Cephalid Breakfast
CREATURES
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
4 Cephalid Illusionist
2 Grand Abolisher
1 Hapless Researcher
1 Laboratory Maniac
3 Narcomoeba
4 Nomads en-Kor
1 Shaman en-Kor
SPELLS
4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Daze
1 Dread Return
4 Force of Will
3 Preordain < Maybe this should be Ponder, but scrying certain cards to the bottom seems very good.
4 Worldly Tutor
LAND
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
I think everything in the list makes sense, but there are just more cards that I want to include, which means things have to get cut.
First, I think the inclusion of Green is worthwhile, as having access to Worldly Tutor solves a lot of the consistency issues with the deck. Assuming we're on the W. Tutor plan, I find Gitaxian Probe to be more appealing, as it allows us to tutor a combo piece to the top of our deck and draw it immediately, and there is also the synergy with Cabal Therapy. I wouldn't know what to cut for the Probes though, and if I add Probe, I probably want to add a 3rd Therapy.
Second, I agree that Grand Abolisher is very desirable, as it offers unsurpassed protection for our combo. The problem that I have with it is that it is really taxing on the manabase, especially if we want to play Daze and therefore should run all U/x duals. This was actually one of the reasons I didn't like Lim-Dul's Vault, as you can't cast it off of Tundra + Tundra/Cavern of souls. That being said, I'm not in love with Daze in general, but I kind of feel like it's a necessary evil, since you'll be wanting to spend your mana on other things to advance the combo and therefore need a "free" counter.
Third, Cavern of Souls seems really potent, but also seems like it might be a trap. The deck obviously can't afford to play a full x4 Caverns, so that puts you in a situation where you have to play it naming the creature type that is immediately most relevant (Human, Kor, Cleric, Wizard...all possible options). Including Cavern would, IMHO, put Eladamri's Call and Lim-Dul's Vault out of consideration. Though it may be worth sideboarding against decks with Chalice of the Void, though they'd need Chalice on X=1 and X=2 to shut us out. For the time being, I'm unconvinced that Cavern deserves a slot in the maindeck.
Fourth concern is with Force of Will. The deck doesn't have that high of a Blue count. For that reason, I wonder if cutting down to 3 FoW is appropriate.
CaptainTwiddle
what you say sounds logical enough. However, putting the life combo in would lower consistency significantly, I believe. I played the deck for quite a long time and managed to take it to top8 of a ~100 people tournament. At that time my list looked very similar to yours, but I played 4 Shuko, because it helped playing around creature removal, which was mainly stp and lightning bolt at that time. I still ran 2 nomads to raise the number of turn1 combo pieces. Also I played Lim-dul's vault instead of worldly tutor, because I appreciated 3-color manabase with 3 basic lands instead of 4 color. Sometimes you need to find a counter or a cabal therapy and not just a creature, LDV could even find both combo pieces if you had neither. I played 2 preordains and 1 ponder and for me it proved to be the nicest split. I agree that preordain is slightly better with it's ability to avoid the seen undesirable card to draw. Daze is a must have (at least 3), cause you are a fast combo deck and need free protection in early turns. Hapless researcher is 100% better than Azami, as you are not afraid to draw it and he can discard dread return for you or whichever.
But for me the deck became dead after deathrite shaman and abrupt decay were released. You cannot counter decay and your only answer to shaman is counterspells or grand abolisher, which is too clunky anyway. I guess, shuko is not so good anymore, as it can be destroyed with abrupt decay, which is the second most playable removal nowadays, as I believe. There are too many angles to attack breakfast this day, and taking it to a big tournament is suicidal. A pity, because it was my first and most lovely legacy deck...
I think you're correct in your analysis of the current meta not allowing Breakfast to exist in a meaningful way. That being said, my local meta is devoid of Abrupt Decay and contains very few Deathrite Shaman. Wasteland is also dramatically under-represented. It's mostly combo decks and Breakfast might be able to thrive in that meta, as the opposing disruption is low and the Breakfast clock is quite fast/consistent, plus we pack our own disruption.Quote:
Originally Posted by door
For what it's worth, I've sleeved my above list, except I've cut down to 3 FoW and converted the Preordain to Ponder (+1). Between the fetchlands and Worldly Tutor, it's pretty easy to avoid drawing the cards that you want to keep in deck.
I don't have any illusions about the "real world" positioning of this deck, but I definitely think it's worth keeping on the radar, as it may only take the printing of one new card to make it relevant again.
Is this deck really in bad shoes right now? I was thinking on something like this
Creature (20)
1x Angel of Glory's Rise
4x Cephalid Illusionist
4x Grand Abolisher
1x Hapless Researcher
1x Laboratory Maniac
3x Narcomoeba
3x Nomads en-Kor
1x Shaman en-Kor
2x Stoneforge Mystic
Land (18)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Island
2x Marsh Flats
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Plains
4x Tundra
Sorcery (1)
1x Dread Return
Instant (16)
1x Abeyance
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Muddle the Mixture
3x Orim's Chant
Artifact (5)
4x AEther Vial
1x Shuko
This build goes more for a protected way to combo. Sure it's slower, but it can do well against Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman, using Abolisher and Abeyance. I decided to drop green and use Muddle the Mixture instead, as it gets almost everything this deck needs (Cephalid, Abolisher, Abeyance, Stoneforge, Shaman en-kor). Of course it's slow as hell, but I think it's an okay option.
I've been brewing a Breakfast list as of late. Most of the choices are fairly straightforward, though some may find the counts on a few cards somewhat suspect. My biggest issue with this deck is that there are so many cards I'd like to run that they simply won't all fit. The current configuration aims to include the minimum amount of each type of desired effect (filtering, tutoring, disruption, protection, etc.). As you can see, I'm not on the Shuko plan. I considered it, but I like the speed of the creature only version and it makes really good use of Worldly Tutor. As mentioned above, there are more cards than slots for this deck and including Shuko requires additional slots for Stoneforge Mystic and/or Steelshaper's Gift. I'm hoping to take this to one of the weekly events at my LGS after the holidays and see what it can do. My meta (at least as I've experienced it thus far) is fairly low on "fair" decks. As such, I'm not anticipating having to fight through too much removal. After I actually run this through a gauntlet I plan on writing a report.
Cephalid Breakfast
CREATURES
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
4 Cephalid Illusionist
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Hapless Researcher
1 Laboratory Maniac
3 Narcomoeba
4 Nomads en-Kor
1 Shaman en-Kor
SPELLS
3 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Daze
1 Dread Return
3 Force of Will
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Worldly Tutor
LAND
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
Sideboard
1 Crippling Fatigue
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Gilded Drake
2 Nature's Claim
2 Pithing Needle
1 Stern Proctor
2 Swan Song
1 Venser, Shaper Savant