With the archangel in play would her ability stop the ability of goblin lackey?
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With the archangel in play would her ability stop the ability of goblin lackey?
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by moseby
Trying to Reanimate this thread lol.
Anyone saw the new card Child of Alara?
WGRBU
Trample 6/6
When Child of Alara leaves play, destroy all non-land permanents.
Just wondering if it'll be cool to play her in a more controllish Reanimator with Recurring Nightmare.
Hi, I was just wondering if Inkwell Leviathan would be an addition to this deck.
7UU Conclux
Artifact Creature - Leviathan
Islandwalk, trample, shroud
7/11
Seems really good in a meta where there's lots of islands but since I'm a noob and haven't gone to any real tourneys, I don't know.
I think if you can make the deck work, this is a good creature. Blue is a popular color in Legacy, and it has Shroud, which is huge.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanmok
yeah, but Hurklys Recall is not unseen in Legacy... :frown:
Are you serious? I can't think of a single deck in recent years (I'd say in the last two years) that has performed well that has had even a single copy of Hurkyl's Recall in its seventy-five .Quote:
Originally Posted by MSC
Also, if you're worried about people boarding in Hurkyl's Recall against your reanimator deck I'd say you're still probably okay.
In days gone by I was an AVID necromancer (if you will). Ink-well and Child both are extremely powerful however you must first ask yourself why would I want to run these?
The "current" reanimator suite I often see and have considered is 4 Empyrial Archangel and some combination of either Bogardan Hellkite or Hellkite Tyrant. These options were selected due to in Archangels case, the bigger backside with shroud and the built in Pariah effect. Both Hellkites were added due to the speed they give the deck. Either Hellkite COULD kill the opponent in 3 swings; although in reality Bogardan is likely 4 turns as opposed to Tyrants 3 Turns.
Prior to those targets we used a wide variety of utility options such as Phantom Nishoba aggainst aggro, Angel of Despair to kill troublesome permanents, and the ever classic Razia and Akroma for a combination of powers and speed.
The Child is by far the easiest to examine. The typical time to kill is 4 turns from entering play (assumption was they have taken 2 off fetches or something). So not a horrid kill time. Then we must consider the ability. There is two ways to view it. Either they will leave it alone because they can race it or they will solve it when it will do minimal damage to them. Arguing that it can play defense is not really an option for a reanimator deck.
Ink-Well is the most powerful option of the two due to the abundance of islands. The Ink-Well also kills in 4 turns however it does not require your opponent to have taken damage and has evasion plus trample incase your opponent is not playing islands. The only "downside" is the lack of a come into/leave play ability however such travesties did not prevent Simic Sky Swallower from being run in days gone by.
Bogardan Hellkite isn't played because of speed, necessarily, but because it deals damage even if it's "dealt with."
Now, there's a critical mass of things you can't deal with, i.e. shroud:
3x SSS
4x Empyrial Archangel
4x Inkwell Leviathan
That might well be superior to the Hellkite build (who needs speed when you have inevitability due to few decks playing wraths/edicts in legacy?): I don't think anyone plays this often and competitively enough to draw a firm conclusion though.
Of the three shrouds, I think Simic Sky Swallower is a bit underrated just because it's old and boring: Empyrial is cool in that it buys you two or three turns vs. burn decks, but it almost always dies to an attacking pair of Goyf+Goose (and one of them gets to survive). I do think I like Inkwell the best (despite random obscure hate), as it can always block and nearly always kill what it blocks the turn it comes into play.
Like I said, I'm not sure what's better, speed vs. shroud, or the combination that most (non intuition+toolbox) decks have used up until now.
OTOH, without Hellkites to soak up Swords to Plowshares (making your Reanimate spells cost effectively 3 life, rather than 8) while pegging your opponent for 5, your imps and prowlers become more attractive targets for removal, which might hinder your ability to get things into the graveyard (especially when trying to play around graveyard hate).
Just on a lark, I'll throw this out there: maybe defense is fair reanimator strategy, too:
4 Platinum Angel
4 Blazing Archon
2 Spirit of the Hearth (obscure eventide card: YOU gain shroud)
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner (remove one Prowler for the 2nd copy)
A lot of decks would absolutely hate to see that game one, anyway.
On the 3/4/4 list you suggested my real question to you is why the SSS what does it really do for you? Yes it is highly protected but what other value does it bring? I would much rather run the White Akroma and race then just have SSS do its thing.
As for the "defensive" suite you suggested there is one large inherit flaw... What happens when they draw one of their endless removal spells that the other suite turns into a dead draw? The answer (I think) is you likely lose.
Your two statements are fairly self-contradictory (if overly dramatic in prose): If you're concerned about having threats no one can deal with, Akroma is strictly worse than SSS, which isn't exactly a chump at 6/6 even though it doesn't make jaws drop anymore.
Akroma's haste demands that she be dealt with at instant speed, and yet the most popular removal in the format is the perfect answer for doing just that (not to mention that 1/3 of your reanimation spells fail to work on her and you might not want to run multiple copies).
Having all shrouded reanimation targets does change the nature of the deck, I think ("I think," I haven't tested this just like no one else has really tested this).
The defensive deck, it's obviously not as good in an abstract sense as the speed deck (just because Hellkites get their five damage in even when zapped), but it demands removal: you have 12 reanimation spells, if they don't have more removal or can't find it fast enough, you still win (if they require the attack step or targeting you). Plus, you can randomly hose decks like Ichorid in game one. So it's at least something interesting to think about from a metagame perspective.
We're talking about a fan favorite and not a tier 1 deck, anyway.
I couldn't resist jumping in here and reviving this thread a little. I've got a lot of ideas about reanimator. I've been playing a B/G version in tournaments and online for the last few months, but most of the concepts are very similar. See here for my earlier build:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=13283
With B/G you can play Krosan Grip and Wild Mongrel. Pernicious Deed isn't bad either. But B/U has a lot of library searching cards, so you gain a little more consistency. I wouldn't recommend B/G/U, because you absolutely must draw black for it to work.
Anyway, there are a lot of cards that should be discussed here, but haven't. They may or may not be right for your deck or your meta, but are worth considering:
1) Cycling cards. I like to use a few copies of Wirewood Guardian and Twisted Abomination. Scion of Darkness isn't bad either. These aren't the strongest cards by themselves, but the tradeoff is very useful. Not only do cycling cards put themselves in the graveyard for you (bypassing counterspells) but they let you draw a card to boot, so you maintain card advantage.
2) Alternative methods. If your opponent has too much graveyard hate, it's good to have at least a couple of alternate ways of getting your creatures into play. Green is useful with Natural Order, Elvish Piper, and Defense of the Heart. For blue, Polymorph is another method, but is kind of iffy. Dragon Arch would work for any deck, but I haven't playtested it much myself. It also helps to have creatures you can hard cast, if needed. So if you are playing B/U and can't decide between Akroma or Tidespout Tyrant, then the Tyrant should probably get the slot.
3) Some other fat creatures that I haven't seen mentioned, but are definitely worth considering:
Hellkite Overlord - Simply the biggest flyer around, and with haste and trample, it can many times win you the game that same turn.
Reva Dawnbringer - To me, this is an auto-include, and the first thing I grab from my library when I cast Buried Alive. She reanimates another creature every turn for you!
Sisters of Stone Death - This might not look that great at first glance, but consider her special abilities let her remove any creature facing her, even a Phrexian Dreadnought. But can only play effectively in a B/G deck.
Autochion Wurm - Speaking of Phrexian Dreadnoughts, this is one of the few creatures in the game that can block one and survive. And at 9/14, it's also simply the biggest creature you can possibly play in a reanimator deck period. They are also pretty cheap to buy compared to the others here - only about .75 cents a card, the last time I checked.
Extractor Demon - At first glance, this one might seem lame compared to the others here, since it's only a 5/5 flyer. But it's unearth ability means that it can essentially reanimate itself. If you put three of these in your graveyard with a Buried Alive spell, then you have 15 points damage you can dish out over the game - damage which cannot be countered. In playtesting, these were very good against countertop decks. And since they cost 4BB, it means you have the potential to hardcast them if you have to.
Maelstrom Archangel - Not only can this thing put fat creatures out for you, it will cast any of your spells. There are so many potential ways to exploit this creature I can't even begin to describe them here.
Divinity of Pride - A lifelink flyer that has the potential to get up to 8/8is terrific. At BBBBB, it's also relatively cheap for hardcasting too, especially if you are playing mono-black reanimator.
Sphinx Sovereign - haven't playtested this one yet, but this thing will automatically damage your opponent for 3 per turn, which adds up pretty quickly. Or if you need life, it can give you that instead.
Thrashing Wumpus - At 3/3, this looks like the weakest creature on this list, but since it has a built-in Pestilence ability, it can totally wipe out goblin, merfolk, or elf decks. Great sideboard card. Cheap to hardcast too.
Prince of Thralls - Haven't playtested this one either, but it's ability to steal permanents has a lot of potential.
Laquatus's Champion - a great finisher if your opponent is at 6 life or less. This is life loss, not damage, so it can't be prevented by normal means.
A couple other points:
Reanimate. I know this thread says its the best spell in this deck, but I disagree. Paying 8 life to pull out an Akroma is a hell of a price if it just gets bounced back to your hand. Add in pain lands, and you are losing half of your life pretty quickly. For just one more mana, Exhume or Animate Dead will get the job done without life loss. Plus, Reanimate doesn't really speed up the game anyway. You still can't pull out creature from the graveyard until the second turn (unless you are playing with dark rituals).
Victimize. Why pull out one card when you can get two? Yes, they come into play tapped, but some cards (like Empyrial Archangel or Angel of Despair) are still usefull even if they come into play tapped.
Any thoughts?
Please read the thread... that is my first thought...
While I HONESTLY appreciate someone necroing this thread because I do really enjoy playing the deck and contemplating card choices it seems highly evident that you have either choose to ignore the info we have presented here... or you have not read the thread.
Each of your suggested fatties are very poor (for the most part) in comparison to those "currently" used.
Hellkite Overlord--Not to shabby due to overall speed although StP still does a number on his ass
Reva Dawnbringer--I did see you talking about using Buried Alive... but why use it? Buried Alive really slows down the deck giving your opponent to get hate online. Yes, this is a relevant point against Reya because otherwise she is very poor and she also dies to StP.
Sisters of Stone Death-- Who needs the ability to force a block when you can win any race. If you have the mana to use her ability you can out race your opponent.
Autochion Wurm-- While blocking Nought is a nice trick thats all it would ever really due in that situation until you find another fatty and reanimator. There are better options to solve Nought such as AoD.
Extractor Demon-- Really? Again with Buried Alive? While it is synergistic I hardly feel it is worth it in the deck.
Maelstrom Archangel-- The vast majority of the spells in the deck cost one or two mana anyway... If you get her into play and manage to get the turn to swing with her you are sitting pretty assuming you also have a fatty because then at least your opponent needs to topdeck 2 removal spells.
Sphinx Sovereign-- I am sorry their is almost no justifiable reason to run this... Phantom Nishoba runs laps around this chick all day.
Thrashing Wumpus-- This hardly qualifies as a fatty. I do however like his built in Pestilence ability although Thunder Dragon may be on par or slightly better due to the quicker clock he presents while keeping your life a little safer.
Prince of Thralls-- You are joking me right? Please do not run this card. It is one of those "danger of doing cute things cards"
Laquatus's Champion -- Id rather just hit them for 6 with haste... not to mention they cant stifle that.
As for Reanimate being amazing or not... The beauty of Reanimate is the speed it can generate. It allows you to Careful Study and Reanimate on second turn incase your opponent counterd your turn 1 outlet. While this is only one reason I asure you there are more.
Jeez, I just throw out some new ideas based on my own playing, and already someone feels threatened. I did read the entire thread. More than once, as a matter of fact. So the purpose of a forum is to repeat again and again the same ideas already out there? Gee whiz, I thought the purpose was to present new ideas and discuss.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
If you want a thread based on your ideas only, then start a thread and don't let anyone post to it but you. Good luck with that.
Anyway, read what I wrote. I said that a lot of these cards "may not be right for your deck or your meta, but are worth considering". That's all. Is that really such a problem for you?
Yes, a lot of them are. But the point is many of them have trade-offs which may not seem so obvious at first. It's worth thinking about anyway. Getting back to the basics, to play a reanimator deck, you need:Quote:
Each of your suggested fatties are very poor (for the most part) in comparison to those "currently" used.
1) A fat creature
2) A way to get it into the graveyard
3) A way to pull it out of the graveyard into play
Creatures and/or spells that do more than one of these things (such as cycling creatures, unearth creatures, etc) can be far more useful than ones that don't.
Ditto with creatures that are hardcastable, if your opponent throws a Planar Void or another similar spell down on the table.
As for the others - I don't currently play with most of them, but they are all creatures that I would consider, depending on the meta environment.
Yes, except for the creatures themselves... If you are holding more fat creatures, you can throw out another one everytime the Maelstrom Angel hits. That was the point of including it here.Quote:
Maelstrom Archangel-- The vast majority of the spells in the deck cost one or two mana anyway...
You seem to fail to realize the part where all of your ideas have been examined and don't pull their weight/ fail miserably, and take away slots from much better alternatives. I promise, my group has actually tested Reyana, Akroma, Autochion Wurm, and Sisters of Stone Death, and they all were worse than the slots we cut for them (and this was before Archangel). Seriously, it's not defensive, cloistered thought processes, it's your ideas already being discarded for other, better ones that are more functional and work better on a fundamental level, not as meta concerns. Seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Rohan
EDIT: The whole "well I'm just trying to innovate by introducing old ideas "just 'cuz" is really trite. No offense, it just annoys the shit out of me to see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
One more comment to that - in a B/U deck with Careful Study, Brainstorm, etc, then you are right, you probably don't need Buried Alive. But in a B/G or other version, there really is no better way to get the creatures you want, especially if you are doing a "toobox" version, and want to find just the right creature to respond to a particular threat.
Great. Please give me a link to anywhere in this thread where any of these creatures were discussed in depth. Good luck with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
Akroma? I didn't recommend Akroma one way or the other. But obviously, you just skimmed my post. Rather than being so quick to flame, it would be more constructive if you shared with us why Autochion or Sisters were worse than your current choices. I'm not being sarcastic when I say I would love to hear about it.Quote:
I promise, my group has actually tested Reyana, Akroma, Autochion Wurm, and Sisters of Stone Death, and they all were worse than the slots we cut for them.
If you ignore the meta, then quite frankly, you are doomed to lose. That's free advice. Ignore it if you want.Quote:
it's your ideas already being discarded for other, better ones that are more functional and work better on a fundamental level, not as meta concerns. Seriously.
I don't blame you for that, but since I didn't say anything here "just 'cuz", I'm not sure who you are talking to.Quote:
EDIT: The whole "well I'm just trying to innovate by introducing old ideas "just 'cuz" is really trite. No offense, it just annoys the shit out of me to see it.
If the cards work for his meta, then why complain? It's obvious he doesn't see a lot of stp or counters.Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
We are not complaining. We are simply trying to explain why the options are suboptimal. For example lets assume you have a meta devoid entirely of control... All you face is Goyfsligh, zoo, etc etc... Then the obvious choice is a balls to the walls combo deck... But what happens when suddenly a control deck shows up and the combo deck which has nothing against it is forced to do battle? The answer is either A he gets decimated... or B he gets in a quick win and dodges FoW...
While this analogy is not ideal it is intended to explain why using those choices are poor... Yes... In his meta some a 9/14 or whatever the wurm is may seem good but what happens when the new kid shows up packing a StP or he goes to a larger tournament where he faces another Reanimator list? Quite simply he will get trounced due to his "meta game savy card picks" as opposed to using a set of cards which have been tested and debated to cull the weak and allow the best to prosper.
In regards to the desire for a link to the pages where his specific card choices are discussed... I must say they do not exist although there analogues most certainly do. The only example I really remember off the top of my head is the prince of thralls. The prince is very similar to symbiotic wurm I think it was. While it seems good in theory, in testing their are various flaws in inherent with it. The wurm and prince both fall under in danger of cool things. As another way to review his card choices in comparison to our simply go and examine the vintage Oath decks and view their creature choices. While not all are applicable in reaniamtor such as Progenitus due to restrictions, we both cheat critters in and want the best. The primary difference is they have the best way of getting creatures into play and thus only need a few critters; ours is not as efficent and thus we need added redundancy.
As for the ignore the meta argument... It sounds like you do not actually have a meta but rather people that play. A meta is a large collection of players with multiple decks being played by multiple players. NOTE if your supposed meta does not pack FoW then it is certainly nota meta.
Edit: If his card choices are due to budget constraints or simply a desire to go off the beaten path and to attempt to blaze a path of glory then yes perhaps we are of little help but if his goal is to build the best version then I feel our comments are accurate and needed. Perhaps we need Rodgon to come back and more accurately articulate our points...
If you are talking to me, I'll tell you that I played my B/G reanimator at GP Chicago, which had over 1200 people. Other than that, I only play online, which is the most "meta" environment you can have.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
On this list, it looks like the conventional wisdom is to pack your deck with Empyrial Archangels or Simic Sky Swallowers. You mention StP several times in your posts, and if you face that a lot, then shroud creatures make sense.
But then what happens when you face Dreadstifle? An attack by a Phrex Dreadnought will kill either one. Heck, it will kill your Archangel, even if you don't block! Suddenly you might wish you had at least one Sisters or Autochion Wurm (or an Angel of Despair will also do). Or if you have Reva Dawnbringer, it doesn't matter if your Archangel is killed or not, because every turn she will just pull it back from the graveyard, creating a loop that makes you impossible to kill. I once had nothing but those two creatures out, and beat an Artifact affinity deck that had like a dozen creatures on the table.
Anyway, the point is, I prefer the "toolbox" approach, and put in a wide range of creatures to face various threats. In my current build I pack one Archangel and one red Akroma to help me if I'm facing StP. With a Buried Alive spell, I can pull them out no matter where they are in my deck.
I can't do much against Blue control or FoW, except be patient and ride it out (although Rodgon's original deck in this thread didn't have much to stop it either). My sideboard is heavily weighted to stop blue though - one advantage of the B/G version is that green has plenty of anti-blue cards. I now have 4 copies of Vexing Shusher in my sideboard, which is amazing in this deck. In a B/U I prefer to fight fire with fire, and pack 4x FoWs myself - it's also the best defense against combo, something this deck is vulnerable to.