Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
First off, the deck run 19 land and 61 cards, those are both bad number, I think that 21 is the right amont of land for Dreadstill, you want to hit 3 mana. Add to that the ration of basic vs nonbasic in that build and against a lot of deck you'll end up mana screwed pretty often.
Beside that the idea is interesting, the one thing I dont like is that it spreed the deck pretty thin. One of the strenght of this deck is almost having a plan A and B (either stifle/nought standstill or counter/top) in your hand, maybe a card short but hitting that card isn'nt supposed to be hard since the deck is pretty condensed. Adding the green splash thin the counter package for tarmo wich bring an easy 4 plan for victory but more than that (CoW, Wish) just add more win-con (or dont loose-con) while lowering the reliability of your mains ones.
In other word, for a solution to most problem, you pay with reliability, speed, and a shaky mana base. The idea is good but not whort it IMO, the deck already pack enought win-con/control and disruption as it is, no real need for the wishboard.
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I agree with the above.
I have played a cunning wish version of the deck and frankly the advantage of having a wishboard doesn't compare to the disadvantage of losing valuable SB space besides being very slow.
I myself am looking for a way to have a basic forest in the deck (because I am very afraid of my tropicals getting exirpated and because I am encountering more and more chokes in my meta). The obvious solution would be to play 1 windswept heath or 1 wooded foothills and a forest but I am unsure if this solves more problems then it creates. Another suggestion was running 1 shockland. Which might be worth it but does not solve the issue with choke.
On another note I think it is very important to have acces to cc3 cards. I have needed those every single time to maintain a CB lock against for example the rock, enchantress and loam. 3trinket mage with 1-2 crucuble of worlds should be the bare minimum.
On a final point I am getting quite annoyed with explosives more often then not. It is very slow and is only used to kill tokens (very happy when that happens), and dark confidant/ opposing tarmogoyf. I was hoping to find a better solution for this.
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Reagens as much as you may say you want a basic forest, I have to strongly disagree. Fear of your Trops getting extirpated is the exact same fear as getting something else crucial in the deck extirpated (Dreadnought, FoW.) Go with option B and maindeck a Breeding Pool instead, but never maindeck a basic forest w/ green fetchland it's going to hurt you way more than it will help. If you're worried about Choke just sideboard Annul, it's 1 mana and solves that problem way easier. Either that or just don't let Choke resolve /K-grip it at EOT.
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Concern over DS 1 page back are not that warranted. As long as you have a basic island they are in pretty bad shape as I have found in my testing. Your goyfs and naughts eat their lunch, so all that you have to keep off the board is chalice= 1or 2, (trinisphere sucks too), Pit Dragon is problematic but if you have them low enough in life you can probably race, and if you have a goyf in your hand then maybe a moon effect otherwise I wouldn't worry about it.
They go blood moon you go naught, stifle they usually have no MD removal... even a couple of jitte counters aren't going to save them for long.
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jazzykat
Concern over DS 1 page back are not that warranted. As long as you have a basic island they are in pretty bad shape as I have found in my testing. Your goyfs and naughts eat their lunch, so all that you have to keep off the board is chalice= 1or 2, (trinisphere sucks too), Pit Dragon is problematic but if you have them low enough in life you can probably race, and if you have a goyf in your hand then maybe a moon effect otherwise I wouldn't worry about it.
They go blood moon you go naught, stifle they usually have no MD removal... even a couple of jitte counters aren't going to save them for long.
Jazzy Cat is right, but honestly I think ever he overestimates Dragon Stompy, you can actually let chalice at 1 or 2 resolve. E.E. for 0 makes quick work of those... The only real must counters are Pit Dragon and Trinisphere.
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Ok let's open dialogue a little, what are the curent concern of the deck right now?
General card concern :
Academy ruins yes/no?
U/r
Magnus of the moon yes/no/sideboard?
U/g/x(r,w)
No real dilema here, probably the most stable list
U/w/x(g,r)
O-ring good or overrated?
STP really needed here?
Sideboard :
What should our hate be aimed at?
Do we need Propaganda?
Archetype +/-
U/r :
+hight count of basic land (resilent against hate open up BtB or moon)
+biggest control shell
-Weak against artefact and enchantment
U/g/r
+Dynamic duo (goyf grip)
+keep the red sideboard options
+most balanced list (best in unknow meta??)
U/w/x(g,r)
+Board control
+3rd color a charm (dynamic duo or red sideboard)
+Meedling mage
-MD can be pretty cramped and must cut some good card
Black splash :
dead or alive?
Beside the quick nought start, is there a way to better our bad MU (the rock, stompy's etc...)?
I had time to kill so, discuss!
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I am currently playing The U/r list i posted a few posts earlier. Im really satisfied about. As you can see i run 2 magus in the side that really helped me in the landstill mu. And as you already described: it kinda has a problem with arti's and enchantments. Anybody got a nice suggestion for that?? About the other lists: i didnt test those so cant comment about that ;).
~`Maarten
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
J.V.
Jazzy Cat is right, but honestly I think ever he overestimates Dragon Stompy, you can actually let chalice at 1 or 2 resolve. E.E. for 0 makes quick work of those... The only real must counters are Pit Dragon and Trinisphere.
Lastly if you want to pwn DS's face then play firespout in the sb. 3 damage kills just about everything except arc slogger and a face up hellbent raiders. You should always have Mountains to cast it :P
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jazzykat
Lastly if you want to pwn DS's face then play firespout in the sb. 3 damage kills just about everything except arc slogger and a face up hellbent raiders. You should always have Mountains to cast it :P
Completely True I usually side in a few against Dragon Stompy.
==================================
Ok let's open dialogue a little, what are the curent concern of the deck right now?
General card concern :
Academy ruins yes/no?
No, the deck can't afford to run more nonbasics and you have no way of finding it.
U/r
Magnus of the moon yes/no/sideboard?
Yes, Sideboard if your meta has a lot of Landstill type decks or even just decks with bad mana bases.
U/g/x(r,w)
No real dilema here, probably the most stable list
Agreed, I would say Ugr Specifically is the best.
U/w/x(g,r)
O-ring good or overrated?
STP really needed here?
O-Ring is really good, the only issue I've ever had with it is that it is a triggered ability so it can be stifled.
STP: Obviously solid regardless of the deck, but I think O-Ring just does a better job in Dreadstill and creature removal isn't actually that needed. The only time you ever really wish you had Swords is against something like Tombstalker, but even then you can race it or O-Ring it.
Sideboard :
What should our hate be aimed at?
Do we need Propaganda?
You NEED graveyard hate, Also BEB is probably the most used card in my board, as far as things like Propaganda, I think its kinda clunky just run Firespout.
Archetype +/-
U/r :
+hight count of basic land (resilient against hate open up BtB or moon)
+biggest control shell
-Weak against artifact and enchantment
Pretty well summarized.
U/g/r
+Dynamic duo (goyf grip)
+keep the red sideboard options
+most balanced list (best in unknown meta??)
I actually think Ur is probably the most Balanced since I have occasionally had the problem of being locked out of cards by color screw in Ugr. But I do agree that it is the best in an unknown meta, You get GY Hate, Goyf, Grip, Anti-Blue, and sweepers. I think that about hits everything.
U/w/x(g,r)
+Board control
+3rd color a charm (dynamic duo or red sideboard)
+Meddling mage
-MD can be pretty cramped and must cut some good card
I haven't really worked with Uwx all that much, but I do think it could be really strong. Most likely I would play Uwr
Black splash :
dead or alive?
I'm not sure Maindeck Thoughtseize is super strong but I don't know if that is enough to make it worthwhile over any of the other colors.
Beside the quick nought start, is there a way to better our bad MU (the rock, stompy's etc...)?
Rock you really have to play perfectly, that's the best I can give you there... I'd label Stompy as a good match up, honestly its pretty easy.
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Academy ruins yes/no?
Yes. I think that this card will work, but only in decks with one splash, and only as a one of (obv.) If you run this in a deck with more than one splash, you open yourself up to heavy land disruption. if you look on deckcheck, about 1/3 to a half of the decks run it.
Quote:
U/r
Magnus of the moon yes/no/sideboard?
After further testing, I will have to agree with this in the side, especially against landstill.
Quote:
U/g/x(r,w)
No real dilema here, probably the most stable list
+2. I personally like the Ugr
Quote:
U/w/x(g,r)
O-ring good or overrated?
STP really needed here?
O-ring overrated? No, not really. It is good against alot of threats, but i feel that the white splash version as a whole does not have the same kind of punch as the Ug/Ugr versions.
Quote:
Sideboard :
What should our hate be aimed at?
Do we need Propaganda?
I have not liked propaganda in testing, usually it is best against lost of tokens or ichorid. echoing truth and tormods does a better job against those decks anyways and are more versitile.
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
One list which off the cuff seems homotronic to me is: Uwb
having confidant (maybe), swords for sure, seize (awesome card but does it help you in any bad matchups?), and possibly Mother of Runes (a potentially shit idea) to protect the Naught and Vindicate, which combined with stifles, trickbind, and wasteland not only provides the all purpose spot removal but also more ld, which makes daze super relevant.
General Comments:
This "deck/archetype" destroys combo decks, I think I lost one game vs. everything I have tested against (teps, solidarity, AdNauseum). BTW I raced 8 ETW tokens with dreadnaught, then goyf+factory. Racing combo with a creature is funny!
It has a brutal combo finish stifle/naught so it seems to roll aggro (to a point) and the lists with Tarmogoyf are basically Abysses vs. them as they can't afford to wait for you to get a Dreadnaught down.
That said I imagine this deck gets owned hard by Stax and I imagine Landstill is not that easy.
What are the good and bad matchups for each variant?
Is this deck supposed to play like landstill or threshhold I can't figure it out...sometimes I feel like a combo deck and just go for the quick win.
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jazzykat
One list which off the cuff seems homotronic to me is: Uwb
having confidant (maybe), swords for sure, seize (awesome card but does it help you in any bad matchups?), and possibly Mother of Runes (a potentially shit idea) to protect the Naught and Vindicate, which combined with stifles, trickbind, and wasteland not only provides the all purpose spot removal but also more ld, which makes daze super relevant.
General Comments:
This "deck/archetype" destroys combo decks, I think I lost one game vs. everything I have tested against (teps, solidarity, AdNauseum). BTW I raced 8 ETW tokens with dreadnaught, then goyf+factory. Racing combo with a creature is funny!
It has a brutal combo finish stifle/naught so it seems to roll aggro (to a point) and the lists with Tarmogoyf are basically Abysses vs. them as they can't afford to wait for you to get a Dreadnaught down.
That said I imagine this deck gets owned hard by Stax and I imagine Landstill is not that easy.
What are the good and bad matchups for each variant?
Is this deck supposed to play like landstill or threshhold I can't figure it out...sometimes I feel like a combo deck and just go for the quick win.
Quite to the contrary unless you open with shit and they have the nuts you tend to steamroll Stax, you just have to know what to Counter. You did guess correctly Landstill is brutal, in my last three rounds against Landstill I have gone to time in game three for an unintentional draw This was against Nickrit2000 and twice against Konsultant (arguably the best landstill player in all of legacy.) As for how the deck plays out thats the beauty of it, it adapts to the situation I'd say it play like a tempo deck most often, but it certainly has matches where it plays the control game or the Aggro/Combo game.
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jazzykat
General Comments:
This "deck/archetype" destroys combo decks, I think I lost one game vs. everything I have tested against (teps, solidarity, AdNauseum). BTW I raced 8 ETW tokens with dreadnaught, then goyf+factory. Racing combo with a creature is funny!
-Pretty much, the deck was designed to completely destroy combo with my initial intentions. I'd also have to agree I hardly ever lose to combo, Ichorid probally has the best game against us.
Quote:
It has a brutal combo finish stifle/naught so it seems to roll aggro (to a point) and the lists with Tarmogoyf are basically Abysses vs. them as they can't afford to wait for you to get a Dreadnaught down.
UGR most definetally has the best aggro MU with Goyfs, Dreadnoughts, and Firesprouts from the board, I actually am going to start playing UGR I think.
Quote:
That said I imagine this deck gets owned hard by Stax and I imagine Landstill is not that easy.
Mono-white armaggedon/Enchantress are rough matchups. But with K-grips and EEs postboard at worst your looking at 55/45 their favor. I actually think Landstill isn't that bad unless it's UGB Gravedigger- that's the hardest to defeat. UWx is easier then that variant for sure~ Bring in Moons/REBs, you should be okay.
Quote:
What are the good and bad matchups for each variant?
Is this deck supposed to play like landstill or threshhold I can't figure it out...sometimes I feel like a combo deck and just go for the quick win.
Most of the Dreadstill variants have alot of the same MUs. Obviously, UGR with goyfs or just UG has a stronger aggro matchup then say UR, UG, UB or UW. Where's UR and UW obviously have the stronger combo MU. That's the thing about Dreadstill, you can play it however you feel is right. You can be the Landstill control player or go for fast strait out combo against alot of decks and just win. It's very flexible to people's play styles.
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
@Roodmistah: IMO the power of this deck to utterly stomp out combo without having white in it is undeniable. I guess the anti combo version is pointless IMO unless your meta is going to be 90% combo or something.
I am loving the UGR version because a quick goyf wins just like a Naught beating or a factory humpdown. The deck is relatively threat dense 4 Naught, 3 Goyf, 3 Mage, 4 factories gives you 17 sources of damage all the while wasteland, stifling, and dazing your opponent. I think your best option is probably to play most games like an agressive thresh build as your dazes and stifles become less relevant as the game progresses, that said if you have no gas and can play a turn 2 standstill I think that is OK too.
It is savagely flexible and that was why when I played ITF against it I was having fits because even my deeds weren't safe from being molested. That said I usually won with ITF against it.
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
In my meta there is much combo, also some agro and not very much still/stax/rock stuff. Im sticking with my U/r list.(this is because i like it and because i cant afford goyfs and tropicals :P).
~Maarten
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
1maarten1
In my meta there is much combo, also some agro and not very much still/stax/rock stuff. Im sticking with my U/r list.(this is because i like it and because i cant afford goyfs and tropicals :P).
~Maarten
It sounds like going to a Uw with meddling mage might be even better then if you have the tundras!
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
yes i know :P but i got none of those cards :P and im going to play some tournaments with my U/r list first :P, if it doesnt work out then i'll look for other splashes :P. thanks,
Maarten
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Honestly if you meta is heavy in combo it really shouldn't matter what version of Dreadstill you play every round against Combo should be a bye but on the topic of strongest list against combo red is right up there with White, REB is really good since you can blast their setup: Brainstorm, ponder, mystical tutor, etc.
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
1maarten1
yes i know :P but i got none of those cards :P and im going to play some tournaments with my U/r list first :P, if it doesnt work out then i'll look for other splashes :P. thanks,
Maarten
I just looked back through at least 3 pages of just crap after crap. You guys are talking about the same things you were almost two months ago. There's not that much discussion to add. The new crypt/furnace artifact from Shards is the only addition to the deck.
The color splashes are only preferences, there's no good reason to run one over the other. I recommend trying to be original and going with your own thing rather than breaking down every thing to Swords vs Thoughtseize.
Re: [DTW] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by Band of the Living
I just looked back through at least 3 pages of just crap after crap. You guys are talking about the same things you were almost two months ago. There's not that much discussion to add. The new crypt/furnace artifact from Shards is the only addition to the deck.
I would vouch that we're talking about the same crap from two months ago because that same crap is still doing fantastic, and winning tournaments. :confused: I really don't see why we need new cards in the deck if the old ones still do amazingly well vs. the meta. I mean, I'm all for testing new cards, but if the new set didn't give us much, why worry over it?
