I've sadly learned to type up my report in something external to the browser (like Notepad or Word) and then copy/paste it in when I'm done. Sorry about your luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodieyost
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I've sadly learned to type up my report in something external to the browser (like Notepad or Word) and then copy/paste it in when I'm done. Sorry about your luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodieyost
Anyone else see Jeff Hoogland piloting this deck lately? He’s on the PSI list, swapping IGG a for PiF, 1 ESG for 1 SSG, DRS out for Skyshroud, 1 Land Grant out for 1 Git Probe and 1 of something else out for a 2nd Git Probe (based on the list shared in the last couple pages that was on the mtgtop8 that I used for reference)
He’s ran through 3-4 streams with it, in the league he ran tuesday he went 3-2, losing to a god hand from UWB G1 and G2 (G2 was 2x FoW AND Spell Pierce from opp) and lost in final round to UB Reanimator - miserable MU for us anyway IMO.
Some pilot errors the first stream or so, now it’s mostly just “optimal” judgment calls on mulligans or “optimal” sequencing errors that aren’t objectively mistakes.
On Tuesdays stream he went 2-0, 0-2, 2-1, 2-1, 0-2 so a total of 6-5, two games he won with PiF that IGG wouldn’t have, 1 game on a belch with bayou still in deck, 1 game was facing down opponent LotV at 6 loyalty and topdecked an IMS to chain through 3 contracts and GG the opponent.
Feel like blue decks aren’t very popular online, but I’d consider sleeping up with his 75. 15 cards for U in the board, goes basically all-in on creature plan postboard.
Jeff Hoogland playing one of my favorite decks is almost enough to make me not want to watch.
I like him well enough, pretty decent guy from my region and he’s not a miserable player like some streamers.
Ran back another 3-1 finish tonight with updated list. For reference:
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Wild Cantor
1 Skullwinder
1 Slithermuse
1 Skyshroud Cutter
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Summoner’s Pact
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
3 Land Grant
1 Past in Flames
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Gitaxian Probe
2 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
SB
4 Duress
3 Lotus Bloom
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Tomb of Urami
2 Autumn’s Veil
Round 1 - 4C Delver (?)
Game 1 he wins the die roll, I run a minor FoW check with a Bayou into Drit into a D4 and draw the gas, he makes me play it out but I essentially at storm 6 tutored for PiF with 5 mana floating and finished it off.
I board in the full 15, removing all of the Pacts, Dryad Arbor, 1 Land Grant, 4 CtW, the non-Spirit Guide creatures, and 1 Tendrils. He mulls to 6 and snap keeps, ponders and ships it over. I kept t1 2x Land Grant, 1 Carpet, 1 Duress, 1 Bargain, 1 Petal scry Bayou to bottom. For draw I pick up a Tutor, LG for Bayou, cast Duress, take FoW, ship.
He jams a plains and sends it back, so he has 1 unknown (he didn’t shuffle off Ponder) a brainstorm and a Daze. I draw a ESG, play the Petal, tap Bayou for Carpet, he tanks for a second and let’s it resolve. I ship it back, he brainstorms EOT, untaps and plays a Bob and a Tundra. I draw into a Belcher, add a couple mana off Carpet and jam the D4. Resolves. Send it back. I’ve got 7 mana available next turn, he plays an island and chips me to 8. I draw Git Probe, check the coast and see just the Daze, add my Carpet mana, jam belcher, and flip the deck. He tilted pretty hard after G1, not sure what his deal was.
1-0, 2-0
Round 2 - 4C Pile
We both know each other’s deck but agree to make mulligan decisions as if we didn’t. He goes to 6, I go to 4, I scry and keep Drit on top, I jam Bayou into rit into D4 and get hit with FoW, last Card is LED, he thoughtseize and I scoop.
Bring the full 15 for G2, mull to 5, gun for petal into Carpet get FoW, Bayou rit D4, draw 3 d4 and Tutor. He thoughtseizes a D4. I draw Tomb, pass the turn w/out playing it. He land, ponder, DRS, pass.
Draw a rit, cast -> D4, 2 Petal 2 led, I play Tomb and pass. Could’ve double cracked Petal and cast tutor with priority crack 2 led but he has a strong grip so I ship it. He casts thoughtseize, takes a Card, EOT I make my 5/5. I untap and jam it in, he untaps and plays JtMS. /tilt
I go a couple turns, get another Tomb into play, he plays a Strix and he ships it back with a snap in play also, EOT I make the demon, attack the JtMS, he blocks with Strix and I concede at 2 life. He also had second JtMS in hand, so wasn’t hugely relevant what I did.
1-1, 2-2
Round 3 - RG Belcher
I helped him choose and learn the deck’s lines earlier this afternoon, G1 we both mull to 6, I go to 4, he LG and puts a Taiga into play, double Git Probes but no gas. Puts belcher into play. I draw and go off for the “get there” Belcher with a Land left in deck.
G2 neither of us SB, he’s on the play, we both mull to 5, he goes to 16 off double Probe, puts 18 goblins into play on t3 and ships it back. I go off with 2 LED and the topdecked PiF flashbacked from the yard and get to exact 16 Tendrils damage. He had GG on his turn both games.
2-1, 4-2
Round 4 - UW Miracles
G1 neither of us mull, he doesn’t know what I’m on and he keeps a 7-card Hand. I go for it t1, put myself all the way to 5, he FoW the tutor and I scoop it up.
Bring in the whole 15, he mentions he’s familiar with the deck so I’m wary of mulliganing for Tomb, keep a hand with Carpet, 2 Duress, LED, and ESG. I put t1 Carpet into play and ship it back, he plays an island and ponders. I draw a Tutor, Duress him with Carpet mana, take his FoW and ship. He plays a Plains off the top, ponders, shuffles and ships it back. I grab a D4 off the top, Duress him and take a Brainstorm, he’s got no counter Magic so I’m looking for a Ritual or Petal to take off. I draw Drit, cast off Carpet mana, cast D4 and he has a FoW. /tilt
We go back and forth, eventually I just overwhelm his countermagic with a Ton of mana spells and cast a couple D4s until I’m at 4 life and I cast tutor to storm him out.
G3 I mull to 5, try to put a t1 Carpet into play but he spell pierces it. I don’t draw a mana source until after I’ve discarded to hand size 2 times, he put a Clique into play the first time I was going to discard and shipped my Autumns Veil to the bottom and sees a hand of 3 Drit, SSG, 2 D4, I draw tutor off the Clique. I’ve got an LED in play.
He jams 3, I draw a bloom and suspend. He attacks, ships, I draw a pact and ship it. He attacks, bounces my LED to top of my deck, this goes on for a couple turns (2 copies of the spell + snap) I’m at 8 life when my bloom comes off suspend, I play the LED that was bounced again, I crack bloom for BBB, dRit myself up to 9, cast a D4 to 4 life, another one to 2 life, Cabal for +5 mana, another D4 to 1 life, I cast Autumns Veil and it gets flusterstormed, I’ve got 3 LED in play, I ship a Duress at him and see nothing so I exile ESG for tutor and crack triple LED on priority for lethal Tendrils.
3-1, 6-3
Overall the deck felt great, I didn’t really miss the shaved cards from board much but Tomb and Duress put me into games I had no business in (even though I didn’t get to win a game with my 5/5 Demon, Duress was amazing).
PiF won me a couple times that IGG wouldn’t have, especially against Blue decks. I didn’t miss DRS at all, nor the 4th Land Grant. Boarding plan finally feels solid. Even though bringing +3 lands in, not worried about Belcher because bringing in more permanent mana sources and it’s inherently for slower MUs anyway.
Still terrorizing the world of the non-U opponents and I’m starting to get the hang of winning the FoW matches as well! Would love to see where we can take the deck.
Nice report. You have inspired me to try moving PiF from my sideboard into the maindeck; I've dropped my singleton Dark Petition since they have a somewhat overlapping function.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodieyost
Have you thought about Manamorphose over Gitaxian Probe? I used to hate Manamorphose, but as I get better with the deck I find it becoming a better and better card. If you are running PiF in the maindeck it becomes even stronger, allowing you to generate BB from your graveyard by filtering the GG generated by your Summoner's Pacts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
I removed Dark Petition because it was specifically the WORST way to spend 5 mana in my deck. If I could resolve that, I could also resolve a PiF. The bonus to PiF is that is can also cast from GY, which is super relevant in those 2-3 LED hands, allowing you to go off strictly from the GY. It definitely makes us weaker to Leyline of the Void, but if they start the game with that the good thing is we can still go off in a roundabout fashion.
Regarding Manamorphose: I’ve not tested it personally, but Probe letting me see the opponents hand has been superb every time, especially G1 when my opponent isn’t just auto-passing priority back to me - once I know it’s free to boom, I can just explode. It also starts off with 0 mana, whereas I need a R/G mana for Morphose (not impossible but sometimes strenuous mid-combo). I’ll test it out this week though.
A note: there ARE hands where IGG is strictly better than PiF, both because your opponent loses 3-4 cards and because it can present a t1 victory if you have enough storm count and a Tutor in your opener. There are others where PiF is the only answer that solves the puzzle.
I agree completely. There are a reasonable percentage of opening hands that just say 'Oops, I win' when you have IGG in your deck, which is why I have been so loath to drop it for PiF. Running both, and dropping DP instead, is something I think I am going to be much more comfortable with.Quote:
A note: there ARE hands where IGG is strictly better than PiF, both because your opponent loses 3-4 cards and because it can present a t1 victory if you have enough storm count and a Tutor in your opener. There are others where PiF is the only answer that solves the puzzle.
I've also moved EtW into the Slithermuse spot. Between that and the move of PiF to the maindeck, I've managed to free up two sideboard slots, which I feel pretty good about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
I’m still not comfortable about dropping Slithermuse, if only because it is sometimes exactly the Card I need to get out of a situation. But to be clear, most of my meta is on degenerate combo decks as well, so EtW isn’t the game I need to be on. I’ve also cast a Slithermuse NOT for Evoke and left up as a chump against DnT a couple times, draws fewer cards but gains you life/a turn. I’ve also put it into play against Show n Tell T2, went down to 5 life and drew 4 extra cards, then proceeded to belcher my opp off the top. Niche but was hilarious.
Are you on the creature plan postboard? What’s your full SB?
I'd describe my board plan more like ANT's Grinding Station.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodieyost
4 Swamp
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 ????
Keep in mind that I run Verdant Catacomb over Land Grant, so my total land count goes up to 9 plus Dryad Arbor. I batter them with discard and mini tendrils while dropping perpetual resources and playing D4s. Past in Flames is obviously huge here, which is why I had it in the side.
I hear you on EtW. Even in my meta there are enough main-deck sweepers that it is not a guarenteed win. But at the moment I feel less stupid losing becaue they find their out than because Slithermuse wiffed again. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
My SB is currently
4 Duress
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Tomb of Urami
3 Lotus Bloom (sometimes these are EtW)
2 Autumns Veil
-4 Pact
-cantor
-Dryad Arbor
-1 Land Grant (only 3 mb, go to 2)
-skullwinder
-4 culling the Weak
-1 Skyshroud
-1 Tendrils
-1 belcher
Sometimes I keep 2nd ToA over the belcher, depends on MU. Postboard belcher only stays in against Long grindy MUs where I can just keep activating it for inevitability.
When you’re sideboarding the whole package in for blue, what are you normally taking out to accommodate the slower more consistent plan?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodieyost
With PSI you normally board out Summoner's Pact against blue for obvious reasons. Once you take that out, you might as well also take out Culling the Weak and your non-ESG Pact targets. That's probably about 12 cards right there. The last 2-3 cards will be deck dependant; I take out IGG, for example, but not everyone runs that.
Nice list!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodieyost
How did lotus bloom work?
Edit: took a similar list on cockatrice last night except for: -1 skull -1 SSG +1 land grant +1 ESG -1 PIF +1 Dark petition -1 Belcher +1 Tendrils
Went: 3-2. :/
Lost to U- couterdecks x 2 and 1 Taxes. Won to dredge (iaiii) and Red sneak attack
I'm not sure I understand the 3/1 split on ESG/SSG. I've used 4/2, with SSG taking the place of Manamorphose. I may even go back to that, as it provides masses of Daze protection and an easy way to make R for PIF and EtW (at the cost of not providing any storm).
But I'm not sure why you'd want to add SSG over ESG, because it can't be fetched via Pact, and as a singleton is not enough to guarentee access to R in any event. How did it work out for you?
So can someone convince me to play this deck? I have LED's getting the rest of the cards wont be an issue, I love wanky combo decks (I play Glittering Jeskai Ascendancy in modern) I've done a bunch of goldfishing with the deck still trying to figure out which hands to keep etc, obviously this deck is weak to FOW but how weak? and are there any tips to playing it that aren't obvious I suppose.
The only three versions worth considering are PSI, SITES and Mono B (updated for Mox Opal). Each has their own strengths and weaknesses, but PSI is easily the most vulnerable to FoW in game 1 thanks to Summoner's Pact. It makes up for that by being slightly faster than the other versions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjastill
After sideboarding, none of these decks are particularly weak to FoW. Unlike most combo decks, SI is not trying to resolve a single key spell, and packs a ton of genuine card advantage. Intead, the deck is weak to any combination of disruption AND a fast clock. It can be fast. It can be resilient. It struggles to do both at the same time, in large part because your life total is used as fuel rather than a buffer to buy time.
Gotcha, I just copied a list I saw on here which is ..Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
//Artifact (14)
4 Chrome Mox
2 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
//Creature (8)
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Skullwinder
1 Skyshroud Cutter
1 Slithermuse
1 Wild Cantor
//Instant (16)
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Summoner's Pact
//Sorcery (20)
4 Cruel Bargain
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Land Grant
1 Past in Flames
2 Tendrils of Agony
//Land (2)
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
It's been playing solid, just wanted to know examples of other up to date lists that people have had success with
Talking to a friend he said that belcher is pretty much stable than psi. Thoughts?
Belcher is more stable in the sense that evaluating your opening hands is much easier. You are looking for a determinative spell chain, and you probably only have to deal with a single 'draw 1' spell which you may rely on for more storm, but never as a way of finding business.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
SI, on the other hand, relies on chaining together a series of D4 spells, and it is perfectly possible (and not at all uncommon) to find that your draw into a load of rubbish, killing your spell chain. This means that even a hand that looks good can be a loser, and there is no way of knowing that ahead of time. In that sense, SI is more 'unstable' than Belcher, although I would tend to use the term 'inconsistent' instead.
On the other hand, SI is faster, rebuilds more effectively from a failed or foiled combo attempt, and has a much, much better sideboard plan against blue decks. If we could find a way to reduce the inconsistency of the deck, it would be a real powerhouse.
So after all you would take psi over belcher?
If you want to top-8 some mid-sized tournaments, bring Belcher. It is more consistent, and far easier to play, both of which are important in larger tournaments.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
If you want a pet deck to occassionally smash your local meta, play SI. It's far more fun to play and has a higher skill cap, both of which are important for more casual play.
Sad to read this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
This is interesting.
https://i.imgur.com/vnLLWXs.png
Because I want to be able to drop real lands against blue (and avoid showing them my hand), I don't play Belcher in my 75. And ever since I lost a round 4 match (and a cut of the prizes) to Surgical on Tendrils with no alternate win condition, I faithfully sideboard Empty the Warrens in for games 2 & 3.
But EtW isn't actually a great card for PSI. It's the wrong colour, plays poorly with Pact, and is typically a dead draw. Even when you do use it, it seems like half the time your opponent finds an out. Or just races you - we're not TES, and dumping Goblins after a D4 is not terribly strong.
Is this card an alternative? Obviously, the mana efficiency sucks; you need 8 mana to fetch and cast Tendrils from the board. But, it imprints for black and can grab you business or combo parts if you have loads of mana and no action, all while giving you an out to Surgical.
It's something to play-test, at least, which is not something that SI gets every set.
You will love Death WishQuote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
Not really. There are already times when I can't cast any more D4's due to being on 1 life (or I know they are holding Bolt, or whatever). Death Wish suffers from that same problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by the resurrection
And Death Wish exiles itself, so lines like mana > Mastermind's Aquisition > Past in Flames > mana > Mastermind's Aquisition > Tendrils of Agony don't work.
4 mana on-color Burning Wish which does not exile itself and can be used as a Diabolic Tutor in borderline cases. Versatile but not mana efficient.
My initial thought:
If you want to play a non-belcher non-EtW non-BW build, a 7 swamp SI-TES build would be a good starting point. Here is an old list I found:
Sorcery (21)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Cruel Bargain
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Infernal Contract
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Tendrils of Agony
Instant (12)
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual
Artifact (12)
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
Creature (8)
4x Crimson Kobolds
4x Crookshank Kobolds
Land (7)
7x Swamp
Sideboard (15)
4x Lotus Bloom
4x Slaughter Pact
4x Tomb of Urami
3x Leyline of the Void
It's a tight 75, but you should be able to squeeze a 1-of in by moving 1 Tendrils to the SB?
I am *sorely* tempted to buy LED's just to play this deck since it seems like the kind of fun pet deck I'd love to fuck around with.
Is the PSI list in OP still up to date?
Swap Odious Trow for Deathrite Shaman and it's a solid starting point.Quote:
Originally Posted by SellaNona
Alternative try an updated (ie, Mox Opal) version of the Land Grant list; it's nearly as fast as PSI, but it recovers better because you don't die to Pact triggers. Just taking the list in the primer and dropping Cabal Therapy for Mox Opal is a reasonable place to start.
It's still the best list fwiw, you don't have to play Ill Gotten Gains if you want to play an Empty the Warrens or Past in Flames instead, the redundant Tendrils of Agony are really too important for goldfishing off of a Draw 4 chain or 2xTendrils plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karhumies
Sorely tempted to try Land Grant but LEDs plus a playset of Mox Opals are a bit too expensive. Would also have to pick up a second Bayou although I really should be doing that anywaysQuote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
Here's a 1x Bayou, 4x Ad Nauseam build:Quote:
Originally Posted by SellaNona
Artifact (20)
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Mox Opal
Creature (10)
4x Memnite
4x Ornithopter
2x Phyrexian Walker
Instant (16)
4x Ad Nauseam
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual
Sorcery (13)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Land Grant
1x Tendrils of Agony
Land (1)
1x Bayou
Sideboard (15)
3x Leyline of the Void
4x Nature's Claim
4x Slaughter Pact
4x Xantid Swarm
I guess I'll just start by buying my LEDs and then see if I'll make enough over the next few months to afford the Land Grant version~
Although I play PSI, this is quite similar to what my deck looks like after sideboarding. I am grudgingly coming around to the fact that Pact probably weakens the deck more than it strengthens it. I suspect that, overall, the push for T1 'wins' has distacted from what is otherwise a very strong engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karhumies
I wonder if the most competitive incarnation of SI will be aiming for a T2 win backed a disruption package.
Heresy of the day: PSI is no longer the fastest version of Spanish Inquisition
Broadly speaking the historical difference between Pact Spanish Inquisition (PSI) and traditional SI (TSI) was 12 cards:
-4 Cabal Therapy
-4 Shield Sphere
-4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Summoner’s Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Odious Trow
1 Wild Cantor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dryad Arbor
Of these 12 cards, eight (Pact & ESG) produce mana. Having an additional 13% of your deck devoted to producing mana explains why PSI has historically been the fastest, most explosive version of Spanish Inquisition. But that explosiveness came at a cost.
The obvious cost is the complete lack of protection, but that’s not actually much of a drawback when you don’t intend to let your opponent play any cards. Instead, the drawback came in the following forms:
1) Pact locks you out of pass-the-turn plays. Once you cast Pact, you have to with that turn, which closes down a number of lines of play. Empty the Warrens becomes a dead card, and you can't retry a failed D4 chain or Belcher activation.
2) Culling the Weak becomes less efficient. In PSI, all your creatures cost 1 mana, even Dryad Arbor, although that cost comes in the form of not being able to play a mana producing land in the same turn. This means that Culling the Weak goes from +3 mana in TSI to +2 mana in PSI.
3) Mana management becomes harder. Producing a lot of green mana is not terribly helpful if what you need is a lot of black mana. Other than paying the occasional colourless cost on Cabal Ritual or the like, the green mana has to be filtered through Wild Cantor or Manamorphose before it becomes truly useful. This is especially true at the start of the chain (as at the end of the chain both Belcher and Tendrils have a colourless component to the cost).
4) Goblin Charbelcher becomes less reliable. In order to reliably find a Culling target, PSI has to play Dryad Arbor. Sure, other builds may choose to include Arbor, but PSI needs it. This reduces the odds of any given Charbelcher activation actually producing a kill, unless you have managed to draw both of your lands prior to activation. And as a failed activation may involve you dying to your Pact trigger, you may not get a second chance.
Overall, these drawbacks were worth the additional speed that PSI brought to the table. Now, however, things have changed. At this point, the difference PSI and TSI (updated) is these 12 cards:
-4 Mox Opal
-4 Shield Sphere
-4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Summoner’s Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Wild Cantor
1 Skullwinder
1 Dryad Arbor
Instead of eight more mana producing cards, PSI only has four more. Taking into account the additional +4 mana produced by Culling the Weak (across four copies) when 0 cc creatures are used, TSI actually produces the same amount of mana as PSI, without any of the drawbacks that comes from producing off-colour mana or Pact triggers.
I believe that there are other benefits (and some disadvantages) to a Mox Opal SI build, but my focus here is just the speed. The results of my testing support the theory-crafting, and in addition, far more of my 'losses' are clear wins on the following turns.
Clearly, more testing, and actually tournament results, are needed. Sideboarding, in particular, needs to be reconsidered as there is an additional synergy to consider when adding or removing cards. But as much as I miss the crazy lines of play from Pact, the Mox Opal build feels much stronger.
Thoughts?
Hmmm. Not a lot of activity on this thread right now.
I've gone back and reread this thread entirely. It's about the third time I've done that over the years, and it is always interesting to see the development of the deck, and the issues that crop up as the meta changes.
Anyway, I'd like some advice regarding two alternate decks that I've been testing. Having come around to the idea that Pact/Belcher is not really the best way forward in any meta with a reasonable amount of U, I'm now looking at more traditional builds. I have put the differences in card choice in CAPS for emphasis.
Artifact SI
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
3 TENDRILS OF AGONY
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 MOX OPAL
4 SHIELD SPHERE
4 PHYREXIAN WALKER
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamps
1 Dryad Arbor
Or alternatively|
Kobold SI
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
4 TENDRILS OF AGONY
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 CRIMSON KOBOLDS
3 CROOKSHANK KOBOLDS
1 FLEX SLOT
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamps
1 Dryad Arbor
The Verdant Catacombs are there in each deck to access Dryad Arbor, and also allow a G splash out of the sideboard for dealing with Chalice of the Void.
Now, Artifact SI is the faster of these two decks. I would say it is on par with PSI, as PSI runs +8 green mana sources, whereas this deck runs +4 multicolor mana sources and gets +1 black mana from each Culling the Weak. Certainly, testing has shown it to be very similar. With more testing, I could probably drop one, or even two, artifact creatures to get the same flex slot as Kobold SI, but I just don't know yet.
On the other hand, Kobold SI, while slower and without the ability to perma-tank a Goblin Guide or a Snapcaster Mage, is still very fast. It also offers some absolutely disgusting opening hands in terms of Cabal Therapy and Kobolds that can buy you a great deal more time than you lose in speed. In that sense, it is a little harder for your opponents to know what kind of hand to keep - mull into hate because you will be fast, or will that just mean your hand get's torn to nothing by discard?
Even more of an advantage is the saved sideboard space. Since Artifact SI will want Cabal Therapy (and probably Duress) from the side for the U matchup, it has 4 fewer spots than Kobold SI. This allows KSI to shore up another matchup, such as by bringing in Leyline of the Void for Reanimator/Dredge matches.
Of these two approaches, which seems more promising, and why?
Before I put this deck to the side I was planning to play this list:
SAINT
4 Shieldsphere
2 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling The Weak
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Land Grant
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ad Nauseum Tendrils
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Bayou
60
Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Leyline of the Void
4 Slaughter Pact
But I follow your reasoning to play without the Pacts and without the land grant.
You can use this example sideboard for your deck but probably with 1 Bayou in the side. (isn't a bayou interesting to have main? Instead of a swamp?)
As you can see above, I was also playing a list with maindeck cabals for that extra durability. So I would prefer your Kobold list, especially because, KOBOLDS! :-D
But what would you use in the flex slot? A past in flames maybe? Since you can/will be playing EtW as well.
I don't agree with using fetchlands over Vault of Whispers in a Mox Opal list, but if you're interested in actually playing Magic as opposed to gold fishing then the Kobold list is easily better as Kobolds have more utility than Robots as Chrome Mox imprints in and of themselves - furthermore the red mana can be expanded on for SB configurations like 4 Empty the Warrens and Simian Spirit Guides.
The Dryad Arbor seems really unnecessary, IMO, as well as Abrupt Decay considering the decks that play Chalice of the Void usually don't play counter spells as well. Ill Gotten Gains hasn't been a consistent win condition since Deathrite Shaman was printed, I wouldn't bother MDing it over say an Empty the Warrens just for the 6 mana "whoops, I win" lines.
If you want to practically play the deck, the truth of the matter is lands, kobolds and Cabal Therapys are your friends.
Thank you both for your responses.
I think Bayou is actually a really good idea for the Mox Opal list. Sideboard space is more limited, and the deck is still trying to go off as fast as possible, so Wasteland is not an issue.Quote:
But I follow your reasoning to play without the Pacts and without the land grant.
You can use this example sideboard for your deck but probably with 1 Bayou in the side. (isn't a bayou interesting to have main? Instead of a swamp?)
As you can see above, I was also playing a list with maindeck cabals for that extra durability. So I would prefer your Kobold list, especially because, KOBOLDS! :-D
But what would you use in the flex slot? A past in flames maybe? Since you can/will be playing EtW as well.
For the Kobold list, I think Bayou in the main in probably wrong. In order to try and duplicate the in-game effects of Cabal Therapy, I have been goldfishing on the assumption that my opponent was going to make a game winning play on their second turn (Thalia, Gaddock Teg, Counterspell mana, etc), so I need to go off before their second turn. However, if I can hit them with Cabal Therapy before their second turn, I give myself +1 turn to go off on the basis that they won't be able to shut me down until their third turn.
Goldfishing like this has been very interesting. I often find myself wanting to play out one (or even two, on the play) lands as recurring resources that help fuel the turn 3 combo. This means I want to drop lands that can't be hit by Wasteland, making Swamps the stronger choice. Since I have plenty of sideboard space, this seems like the right call.
As for the flex slot, I'm thinking it ought to be a mana generator of some kind, with ESG/SSG being the obvious choice. KSI produces noticeably less mana than PSI or MSI, and the majority of failed D4 chains will fizzle due to lack of mana. So while I would absolutely put PiF in the side for the U matchup, I don't see it having a place in the maindeck over something that makes mana.
I've seen you advocate this in the past, but in my testing I just never felt the need for Vault of Whispers. Since the vulnerability to Wasteland becomes relevant in the grindy U matchup, I just don't see an advantage to including it when it has not generally been needed. Of course, if that then let me cut a couple of Tallmen for something (Cabal Therapy?) it could be a worthwhile trade-off. Something to test, then.Quote:
I don't agree with using fetchlands over Vault of Whispers in a Mox Opal list, but if you're interested in actually playing Magic as opposed to gold fishing then the Kobold list is easily better as Kobolds have more utility than Robots as Chrome Mox imprints in and of themselves - furthermore the red mana can be expanded on for SB configurations like 4 Empty the Warrens and Simian Spirit Guides.
The Dryad Arbor seems really unnecessary, IMO, as well as Abrupt Decay considering the decks that play Chalice of the Void usually don't play counter spells as well. Ill Gotten Gains hasn't been a consistent win condition since Deathrite Shaman was printed, I wouldn't bother MDing it over say an Empty the Warrens just for the 6 mana "whoops, I win" lines.
If you want to practically play the deck, the truth of the matter is lands, kobolds and Cabal Therapys are your friends.
Kobolds imprinting on Chrome Mox is certainly relevant, but so is perma-blocking Goblin Guide, or Snapcaster Mage, or whatever other 2/2 creature they happen to have dropped. In general, I've not fell the 'loss' of imprinting power in MSI, simply because it already produces so much mana.
I agree that Dryad Arbor is unnecessary. But 'necessary' is a very strong word. I was originally testing 7 Swamps and 8 Kobolds, and I found that there were still some hands with Culling the Weak as my main acceleration, but no targets, while at the same time, once I got the D4 chain started, I was drawing into more Kobolds that I could use, and they were filling up my hand.
Dryad Arbor allows me to go up to 11 virtual Culling targets for the purposes of my opening hand, while at the same time letting me reduce the number of Kobolds in the deck. As a side benefit, a G splash off the board becomes possible, and I still have a Culling target that I can 'cast' with Chalice at 0. So not 'necessary', but I still find it useful.
I've not made a choice between Abrupt Decay and Nature's Claim; they each have advantages and disadvantages that I've not thoroughly tested yet. But Chalice of the Void is a common piece of hate, and one of the few that we can't race. PSI is often able to play through it, because the Culling engine is based on 1cc creatures (and Dryad Arbor), but that is not the case with these two builds. The Mox Opal version loses 50% of the deck if you count the loss of Culling the Weak for lack of targets.
I strongly disagree with you on Ill-Gotten Gains, which has given me a lot of wins. Deathrite is not a relevant play until turn 2, when you are hoping that your opponent will already be dead.
I think you're too focused on gold fishing and not focused enough on playing the deck, the problem with Dryad Arbor is that you are sacrificing a land in order to try to go off. This only compounds the value of their counter spells, where if you have a land still in play you can top deck your way out by drawing another D4 or going the 2xTendrils of Agony route. I think if you played Pact SI before the original lists, theres a lot of midgame to the deck that you probably missed out on.
Mox Opal lists don't "grind," the moment you cut Cabal Therapy then you're a gold fish deck. If you don't value imprinting Kobolds over chumping aggro decks you should be gold fishing against anyway, something tells me you aren't mulliganing aggressively enough. The functional utility of imprinting for mana, especially when you mulligan down, is way too high on the gold fish rate to ignore for easy mode vs vanilla aggro decks
I play this deck on MODO still, occasionally. I have gone back to the list that BC posted almost a decade ago. I've found it is the most consistent for me (lol), but still is not very consistent. I've 4-1'd a few MODO events, but normally wind up 3-2. I just don't think this deck is consistent enough to truly become dominant. Here's my list
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
2 Bayou
4 Chrome Mox
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Contract
1 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Tomb of Urami
3 Tombstalker
4 Duress
When I face blue I go -4 culling -8 tallmen -1 belcher -1 IGG -1 IT +15 SB
From my experience, I have literally never had deathrite shaman interfere with IGG (and there is a LOT of blue on MODO). I love having both copies of IGG, especially because I have gone turn 1 IGG to use as a discard 4. It's an expecially nice trick after imprinting a few things on chrome mox, and you likely get any rits you casted back.
EtW has also been useful for me, in increasing consistency. Often times the deck just fizzles (especially after discard), and you can't get a full storm for 10. EtW makes that okay, and 95% of the time, is just as good. A turn 1 EtW for 14 tokens is gg in 90% of cases, which is okay for me. I hope we get some new cards soon though, as I don't think this deck will be anything more than an above average pet deck until then. If I planned to do well in a large (7+) round tournament, I would not bring this deck. It is too inconsistent.