The question is "what would white and green do for me, against fair decks, that Mono B cannot?"Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
Your opinion on that is the answer you seek.
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The question is "what would white and green do for me, against fair decks, that Mono B cannot?"Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
Your opinion on that is the answer you seek.
Here is my The rack/shrieking affliction list. It is just a test for goldfishing purposes but is perhaps of interest.
4 Bloodghast
4 pack rat
4 the rack
4 shrieking affliction
2 delirium skeins
2 dark withering
4 dark ritual
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 pox
3 Liliana of the veil
1 chrome mox
20 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage
Delirium skeins is very powerful. Like a pox.
Nice seeing you're still rocking Pack Rat :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
@ zenitramleirdag: I second Hardcore on his remark, and I would prefer a Loampox-build, but that is just preference right now
EDIT: I think my gut feeling tells me to go Mono Black, but I want to do the Green splash
My metagame is very heavy combo, burn, and other spell-based decks. Thorn of Amethyst is basically Sphere of Resistance against them (in other words, really good), and I don't own Spheres but had Thorns sitting around in my binder unused, so I threw them in. Basically they're for Storm-type combo (including Tin Fins and Belcher) who can't win through it, and Burn, to slow them down. Your metagame may vary, but in my metagame they're useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
About the Turbofog player, this player basically just plays whatever he feels like, and his collection isn't very big. He probably had a bunch of cards lying around and built the deck for cheap with whatever he had.
i like delirium skeins in rack lists, it a boss with the bloody g's! last rites is another card i like, its effective against combo..you might wanna try it..Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
its good to see that lily found her way back in your deck again..
dark withering looks good on paper and i'm sure it could work with all the symmetrical pox effects, but i wouldn't replace the innocent bloods with it because innocent blood does its work with no conditions..same reason why i never ran tragic slip in my list..i just feel safer with the bloods because you just gotta answer that turn 1 Mother of Runes, Deathrite shaman, Noble Hierarch, Goblin lackey, Vexing Devil, Goblin Guide and many, many more..........
and pack rat! great card for pox! i think its a card that can help improve pox' top deck problems, any useless land that you draw during a top-decking war can be fed to the rats, though i'm not sure how they'd operate and how effectively they'd fare under 7 pox effects!..i would try to run the rats if i also weren't running NoSb in the main..here's a successful lists running pack rats that i'd like to share:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6576&d=237772
another thing that i'm curious about your build is that you're not running any :b: spot discard spells like inquisition of kozilek, thoughtseize or even duress to impact the game as early as turn one..i think this is very important for a mono black deck because there's just things that we can't handle once it hits the board and the proactive way of dealing with it via spot discard can spell the difference between winning and losing as early as turn 1..
just my 2-cents..
Well, since my preferred T1 play is ritual Liliana spot discards only advantage, cheap cost, is not that relevant. Besides, it is a Meta thing; I run into 12 post, miracles and bug/rug.
the various :b: spot discard spells' advantage is not only its cheap cost but its impact on your opponent's strategy if it resolves early in the game..the most value that you get from it is not just its low casting cost but the fact that you can choose a card to discard from your opponent's hand..funeral charm is a cheap discard spell but casting it turn 1 is not so hot..raven's crime is also a cheap discard spell, but it wouldn't hurt your opponent much if you cast it turn 1, you get value from raven's crime in the middle and end part of the game..so i implore you to reconsider what you said in "spot discards only advantage, cheap cost, is not that relevant."..Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
if your preferred turn 1 play is ritual into liliana, i suggest you max your lilies to 4 to increase the chances of that happening..
Hardcore's got the right idea. Why include 1 cmc target discard if your meta has no combo? He's got a more aggressive deck so he needs the Inquisition of Kozilek slots for threats. My local meta is a 'perfect' hybrid where aggro, control, and combo all exist so I have to run 1 cmc discards in my version of Pox.
Those of you with a higher threat count or more creature based metas should consider Cry of Contrition. I'd run it myself if I had bloodghasts in my deck.:eek:
I like that one very much! Question what would you guys play for MBP sideboard in a very very diverse meta? It goes from Delver to Storm, with the occasional Tribal. Some experimental rogue decks, but most of the time just pretty standard meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Right now this is what I have sleeved:
Creatures (2)
2 Tombstalker
Spells (20)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
Other (12)
2 Nether Void
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Liliana of the Veil
Manasources (26)
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
9 Swamp
Sideboard (15)
1 Nether Spirit
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Plague
2 Damnation
2 Pithing Needle
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Extirpate
Pretty straight forward... I really don't have the guts right now to experiment too much. So, some advice would be appreciated :smile:
EDIT: I almost forgot; there is also a bunch of guys playing (manaless) dredge
Great list!
I would use the 7-1cmc discard in a Dark Ritual-less build. 4 IoK and 3 TS
Manaless dredge you say?
Leyline of the void.
The force of will variant of the deck can't interract with it.
The Dryad arbor build can, but you "1cmc discard spell" the answer out of their hand.
How is Sensei for you?
I'm thinking of playing it, it's great when we are in top deck war (aka our goal)
Tombstalker is great but with 4 smallpox and 4 innocent blood I don't know.
What if they drop a KotR/Goyf and race the Stalker?
Thanks! The deck feels great, but I'm still tweaking, and you have named all the tweaking points :smile:
Right now I just like the raw power of Hymn, and because I haven't had any problems I will keep this set-up.
Aah yes Leyline of the Void! Of course, but don't you want to play it as a 4-of? That would mean dropping my beloved Extirpate, but I think you are right :smile:
SDT has greatly improved how I play my threats, let me float some cards on top, basically gives me much more grasp on how to play this deck and the game as a whole. With three in my deck chances are I will have one by turn five or even earlier. Yes it is a bad topdeck, but with the inclusion of SDT I also included Fetchland to shuffle away those dead draws, just like any player would after Brainstorm. I would say in more disruptive builds like mine, SDT is a must.
I just need a fast finisher, and Tomstalker is just that. I am lucky not to have been in situations where I had to sac my lonely warrior to a IB or Smallpox. However, I would do it in a heartbeat! Also, with the inclusion of SDT you can float them most of the time (that's also because you only play two of them). Right now if I would include Leyline it would mean Some better SB options against those nasty Goyfs and Knights.
I was thinking about moving Tombstalker to the side in favor of Neher Spirit and Crucible, but I like it like this for now.
I have added a second Chrome Mox to my build; it makes turn one and two Pack Rats really nasty. Mox Diamond, otoh, sucks. Fantastic in LoamPox but for Mono it is easier to pitch spells than lands. A bonus is the low price of Chrome Mox^^
if the meta is crawling with dredge, reanimator and other decks that totally abuse the graveyard; i feel i'd go for a playset of leylines in my board..but currently, their numbers have been attenuated by powerful maindeckable hate like DRS, RIP, scavenging ooze, etc. so i think in today's general meta, extirpates and/or surgicals would suffice(they're also effective against, combo and certain control decks)....still, it doesn't mean that GY decks are non-existent because you'd still occasionally encounter them, don't worry if you get blown out by dredge; i think thats a loss you can afford..
does your meta have a lot of dredge players? that's scary for pox!
when i was running a pair of stalkers a few weeks back, i actually liked thoughseizes more than the hymns in the main because its easier to force the tombstalker into play by getting rid of their removal or counters..
i've ran damnation in the board too, but i've replaced them with toxic deluges..because that 1 mana can sometimes spell the difference..but damnation is still sweet..
Got second this past weekend with legacy eight rack pox in a 31 man tourney(not sure if this is the right thread but the deck does have some number of small and big pox.) No real report, just some notes on the deck and opponents. Beat slivers, omni-show, ur delver, urw delver and death/taxes. My only losses were to miracles, the same miracles player beat me in the finals also. The deck I played was a creatureless discard pox featuring the rack, shrieking affliction and four main deck insnarring bridges. The bridges were awesome in the main and caught alot of people off-guard. Mvp's were liliana and thoughtseize all day. People all day were totally surprised by this deck and even more surprised to see mono-black in the finals. Brainstorm effects were a pain in the ass so im thinking some chains of mephistophles might be warranted? If people are interested in card choices or a decklist I would be happy to post my current creatureless pox list. Finally, this deck seems to be really well positioned right now and I couldn't be happier not playing a blue delver deck of sorts!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmythegreek
hi jimmythegreek, welcome to the forum, congratulations..yes, we would like to see the list please..
too bad you couldn't post a report, we could've offered more insights..
Thank you for the welcome! I will post my deck list and any other relative notes once I leave work (and arrive at the beach:-).Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
Hi Jimmy!
Congrats and like zenitramleirdag already said: a list and some insights on your matchups are more than welcome!
Am I being too indecisive or instead wise with a toolbox anti-creature sideboarding approach?
Right now I have 1 Abyss mainboard and 1 each of Night of Souls Betrayal , Engineered Plague and Toxic Deluge in the sideboard. Obviously each of these are better against different types of decks than the others. I have thought about a second NOSB, but with no Rituals (Mox Diamond/ Loam varient) more than a couple 4cmc spells is too much when you include The Abyss as well.
hmm, i've ran a ritualess build before in my mono black list..and my initial thought was not to put too many 4 cmc spells because it would make the deck too awkwardly heavy..but seeing Roberto Tomelleri's list made me reconsider, he has three 4cmc cards in his deck and he ran no rituals..so maybe it could work..plus, he has a singleton hero's downfall..its a solid spot removal but at 3cmc it feels too slow in legacy especially when you're not running rituals..but he somehow made it work..Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
Hi...i use to play 2 cc4 in g1...post board sometimes 3..(actually I play 2 voids MD + 1 off SB and 3 abyss in my SB)...25/26 lands and 4 rituals!!! I can't play pox without rituals...only against miracle or bug shardless i don't like them!Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
Roby Tomelleri is my friend (i'm italian too)...he loves big demons but he tells me "your pox is better"...old school...
My last tournament was in genuary '14 but now i'm ready to come back in MTG...with pox of course!
Here my lists in 2013:
http://www.tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?...ide=&strict=on
(Last 1 is a suicide black...)
Now i've change my sideboard, i'm testing something like that:
1 void
2 chains of mephistopheles
2 p needle
3 the abyss
3 e plague
4 leyline of the void
MD i'm testing 1 mutavault (as a 5th factory) in place of 1 rishadan port...
Here my tool box for pox:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/05/y4u9umu8.jpg
Sorry for my english(i can write only by smartphone)
Michele
before anything else, welcome back miccel, you've been away for quite a while..come to the forum more often, we need more pox ambassadors..
i'll read and respond to your message in a bit..after i've finished doing chores..
thank you, I had work commitments and family so the time for magic was little, I will try to be present from now on... ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
I wrote my tournament report in mtg salvation last year, i hope i can repeat any top8 as soon as possible and write a new report!!!
Work in progress...
Yes, work and toddlers make MTG tourney appearances tough. Glad you are back.Quote:
Originally Posted by miccel
I suppose my question was more with one slot in main board and three in the side what should be the numbers and split between The Abyss, Night of Soul's Betrayal and possibly Engineered Plague and Toxic Deluge? I may just try one of each and not necessarily use all of them at once but be more strategic. I mean Toxic Deluge is the only one that can hit all creatures, but you pay life and it is not a permanent. Abyss cant hit hordes, artifact creatures or TNN, Plague is very specific, and NOSB is poor against medium-big creatures. But they are all devestating agaings the decks that are effected by them.
In a prison-style pox i think that permanents are better than 1 "shot solutions"...topdeck toxic deluge/damnation in empy board can't prevent every opponent's topdeck... nether void, the abyss, nosb, eng. plague can do it!Quote:
Originally Posted by beez
However i don't like NOSB cause affect my nether spirit and my factories and makes me too slow.
No comment about eng plague, 1 of the best sideboard card for black based decks ever printed...
The flavor of the abyss is pure magic!
I've won a lot of games post board with this old fantastic card!
Ok, it can't kills TNN or revokers (but plague can do it) but can kill emrakul and griselbrand, a big goyf, a germ token...
I use to play voids MD to fight combo and control deck (void can kills aggro but abyss/nosb can't kill combo), for sideboard i suggest a mix of plagues and abyss...
Second place, 31 people tournament with eight rack.
Enchantments:
4 shrieking affliction
Sorceries:
3 innocent blood
1 ravens crime
4 thoughtseize
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
4 smallpox
2 pox
Artifacts:
4 the rack
4 ensnaring bridge
Planeswalker:
4 liliana of the veil
Lands 22:
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 buried ruin
16 swamp
First off I must say that the list is a bit all over the place due to it being my second choice deck and not having time to put together a more optimal list. I honestly went Iin with intentions of maybe stealing a game or two, I mean come on, its mono black discard...........right? Holy crap I rolled everything from delver decks to omni-tell to death and taxes and even slivers, losses were to the same miracles player in swiss and final (damn you jace and counter-balance). My local gaming store has some really quality players, these were no scrubs. Im looking to optimize this list because I trully believe that eight rack effects with discard is a potential contender and can really crush unprepared decks. Mvps were lilianna, small pox and main deck bridges......pox was really lackluster as was buried ruin. I would really appreciate comments and appologize for the lack of report, ihave high hopes for this creatureless version of pox!
Ps. No sideboard to speak of ( had like one infest and four leyline of the void day of), would appreciate help there as well. My local meta is all over the place but mostly tier one decks.
congratulations jimmythe greek!Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmythegreek
i have quite a similar rack list before but i was never as successful as you were..the only difference is i ran bloodghasts instead of the bridges and IOK instead of the thoughtseizes..
your build certainly looks strong, the 4 ensnaring bridges in the main gives you answers to common strategies in legacy..your build also looks consistent because you have a lot of 4-ofs which i like..i agree, your build doesn't need rituals..
i also personally felt that buried ruin is glaringly the most impuissant card in the deck, but i won't totally remove it since your build looks heavily reliant on the bridges for defense, maybe keep 2 copies and replace the other one with other utility lands like cabal pit, bojuka bog, etc...pick your poison.........and if you can save up for it, wastelands...
my guess is that the playset of thoughtseizes together with a pair of big poxes getting your life dangerously low you reason for thinking that its(big pox) lackluster? i personally liked daddy pox in my rack list, maybe because i run IOK's instead of thoughtseizes..
just watchout for chalice of the void jimmythegreek, chalice set at 1 can really cripple you..
if pithing needle hurts pox players who run factories and scrolls..chalice of the void is a bullet to the head for 8rack..
and speaking of needles, i suggest a couple of them in the board to deal with jace or top..and you probably don't need leylines, i think..because the bridges can mostly handle what the leylines are supposed to handle like reanimator and dredge..i'd look for extirpate or surgicals instead for graveyard hate..but thats just me, im sure other players here would have different opinions or suggestions..
Thanks for the reply. I'm completely in agreement with not needing/wanting dark ritual in my deck, as some one said earlier a first turn liliana is sometimes just ok. Also, drawing dark rit late game is not super when I'm trying to shrink their hand. I can rationalize four ensnaring bridges based on the fact that magic as a whole is won on the back of creatures.........so why not cut of that angle all together. Chains of mephistophles seems to fit all to perfect in this decks sideboard, not to mention im just looking for an excuse to buy this card cuz its maybe the goofiest/coolest looking card. Ravens crime is so good mid/late game, essentially turning my crappy top deck into a " you take three from affliction and two from the rack" cuz you have one card in your hand during your upkeep. Any thoughts on a green splash for abrupt decay for counter balance and such? Also, I still cant decide on the best colorless lands for this style of deck. I have the wastelands but im not convinced their best fit here?Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
Ignore green. That is for defensive spells. Against miracles you may need mishra's factories. Something more powerful than 1cc spells in sideboard to be less vulnerable to counterbalance. Perhaps Delirium Skeins?
Against miracle all i want is an "online cursed scroll", factories are ok but are vulnerable to StP and terminus...post board chains of mephistopheles and pithing needle to stop jace/SdT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
However miracles is a bad MU for monoblack versions...
Not bad Jimmythegreek.
3-4 LotV is a good start for sure > helps to shore up your hard matchups like Dredge etc.
But;
Should LotV not be in your first grip > since the faster LED-dredge decks can win before T4 when you might be dropping LotV (I don't like mulling to oblivion to search for hate) I would consider a few Grafdiggers Cage aswell.:wink:
that's right and most miracles lists i've seen today does not maindeck oblivion ring and pithing needle..so you can probably steal a win first match coz' they'd have problems dealing with it..uhm, i'm not totally convinced that it's a bad matchup for mono black, its a difficult match-up though..if they start popping up more often in your meta, try more pithing needles in your board and ratchet bombs too..they're so effective against them..needles, handle their jaces and tops..ratchet bomb takes care of their angel token, counter balance.....Quote:
Originally Posted by miccel
That's true! If fact my old list have 3 needle 2 chains 2 bombs in side...Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
My tournament record against miracle isn't disastrous...something like 3-2-1(w-l-d)...but my win are cause of my deck and MU knowledge...(not every player can play against pox)
Against a good miracles player is too difficult in my opinion...i need the best hand and top decks ever seens ;-)
However should happen that a "bad player" can starts the game with SdT turn 1 > CB turn 2 = GAME OVER!
In this situation i know that i'm not losing this game couse my misplay or opponent's skill...simple couse my deck can't fight against SdT+CB...frustrating....
The only way to improve this MU is splash green for decay (IMHo)...
But i'm mono black player ;-)
I'm now thinking of running Plague Boiler in place of Ratchet Bomb.
"And thus, the Pithing Needler who thought he could protect his permanents in 3 turns heaved a sigh of great sadness..."
I actually don't get 'token overrun' much in meta and even if I did, I run Night of Souls MD and can go Ensnaring Bridge and Eng. Plague after Sideboard. To this end, I'm trading sheer speed and narrow target kill [cmc based] to blow up EVERYTHING... It's like a timed Pernicious Deed for X=infinity. Only testing will tell. It's harder to Counter Balance as well vs. a 2cmc spell
Really into trying this list out. thoughts about running an abyss or 2 in here? (i just love abyss so much i want to run it always).. that and a tabernacle.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmythegreek
i liked this idea, i playtested with it too in the early incarnations of my build when i was experimenting with a catch-all removal plus it also fits our deck's theme of spreading sickness, he he he....i even tried the disk too..Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
never had the guts to actually run it in a competitive event though, i was too chicken..he he he..maybe you can make it work..
i just don't like the fact that it can also kill an active lily of ours :frown:
Plague Boiler is a fun card. For even grindier decks than Pernicious Deed. In a Loam build you could even use Buried Ruin to Plague Boiler ad infinitum. Killing your own Lillies could be a problem there, plus Loam builds usually use Mox Diamond rather than Ritual for acceleration, and that would need to change as well to use Boiler or Deed.
Congrats! I never played this type, but sure gonna test this Pox-variant! What would you think about Green for Crop Rotation to get the DD/ Stage- combo (I just like to get this combo in all my Bg decks :smile:), some Abrupt Decay for random nuisance? I don't know about LftL thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by jimmythegreek
EDIT: this would change the deck dramatically, nevermind...
I would not ignore Green, but I can see your point. Regarding Delirium Skeins: that card really looks like fun in 8Rack. I think it is used in Modern-version as well. Imagine; dump your Boodghast into the gy, drop a land and (hopefully) swing!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Another card to try Bloodchief Ascension
Tabernacle would be amazing in this deck as would the abyss. A tabernacle that taps for black (having urborg out) is a dream of mine, finding room for abyss may prove difficult though. As far as my mana base (this includes prostituting myself for a tabernacle) Im thinking I dont want to play wastelands. My reasoning being that I want my opponents to play spells, not mana screw them hence leaving more cards in their hand avoiding rack/affliction damage. Playing creature- less seems too sweet with main deck ensnaring bridge, along with discard and multiple rack effects. I think two maybe three buried ruins are necessary considering how much I rely on artifacts. We do well against combo, swarm strategies seem to be a thing of the past and whats left are a bunch of tempo decks of which small pox/ discard can handle. Am I over-simplifying things, of course, my point is I think pox is very well positioned right now. Im now going to procede to the overpass where I'll be whoring myself out for two chains (ha....two chains) of mephistophles and a tabernacle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Myelectronicdays
Yeah i think this rack version is heading in a great direction. The list is definately tight.. i agree it would be tough to get an abyss in there.. but I'd love to get an abyss (more of a love for nostalgia of it).. but yeah a tabernacle in there would be hot. I may have to do some selling to pick one up