My list averages 5 damage a game. Never less than 2 damage, but never more than 10.
That being said, my deck (not list, my deck it'self) got played last weekend at our local place and 4-0'd against two burn decks. So...not much of a problem?
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My list averages 5 damage a game. Never less than 2 damage, but never more than 10.
That being said, my deck (not list, my deck it'self) got played last weekend at our local place and 4-0'd against two burn decks. So...not much of a problem?
Rsaunder: How did the games against the burn decks go? Can give us an idea on how to play the matchup?
Also, whats everyone think of running Morningtide in the board? It doesn't hurt Tombstalker if you run it, therefore it's not as painful to yourself as it is to a Thresh opponent; However, it doesn't hurt Ichorid or Breakfast much.
Against burn, destroy lands. Waste nonbasics if they play them, vindicate away, and smallpox if it looks like they might stall. Side out confidents. Nantuko shade ftw.
Why is morningtide better than tormod's crypt?
Ok, many thanks for this feedback Rsaunder !!Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
I can easily imagine that you've actually never took a lot of damages from Bob thanks to the 2 SDTs maindecked though...
Any report from the 4-0 result ?!
Wouldn't Persecute be a powerful card versus burn? Will it fit as a narrow card?
It is good versus Goblins, Solardarity (That reset/brain freeze combo), Death/Taxes, Angel Stompy, and basically all the mono-color decks...
4cc is not great with this deck's mana curve imho.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClearSkies
Moreover, if you don't ritual into Persecute, your opponent will probbly have less than 3 cards in hand by the time you cast it. So Hymn would be more efficient, and leaves you with enough mana open to play more disruption/threats the same turn...
That was just against burn. He turned around and lost to some storm combo (piloted by CaptLyle of BZK). He lost 0-2, game 1 to 14 goblin tokens first turn with no EE. Game 2 he surprised me by SBing correctly and proceding to rip the storm deck's hand apart and laying an e-plague on goblin. Storm ended up winning off of tendrils though. I'm not sure of anything more specific than that. That being said, the man piloting the deck (rsaunder Sr.) had essentially just picked it up and I'm impressed he played it as well as he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by lolosoon
When I use to play Deadguy, I don't ever remember burn being a bad matchup. I just Duress'd and Hymn'd their hand away and then Sinkhole'd and Vindicated their lands. Usually ended the game with a Grunt equipped with Jitte. Rsaunder is right. Just nuke their hand and lands.
Burn is essentially a bad combo deck that folds in the face of disruption and burns (no pun) itself out by turn 5 or 6, if it hasn't won.
Well, I guess only in the Thresh matchup...but Morningtide makes Tarmogoyf 0/1. Tormod's Crypt just gives Tarmogoyf +1/+1.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Err, no. Morningtide makes Goyf a 1/2. Morningtide also turns off your Jotun Grunts should you happen to topdeck one next turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG
Well, my latest list; it seems to deal with Thresh quite well...
Mana 27
4 Dark Ritual
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
5 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
Creatures 10
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Tombstalker, the absolutely badass against Red Thresh. Who can't deal with him. Really.
Other 23
3 Sensei's Divining Top(I like this very much)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vindicate
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict
Sideboard 15
2 Swords to plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Damnation
Against Thresh:
-4 Duress, -3 Hymn
+2 Swords, +2 Diabolic Edict, +3 Damnation,
for a removal suite of:
Removal [16]
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Vindicate
3 Damnation
Against White Thresh, Enforcer is always ugly, but we *do* have Edict and Damnation and StP...
Any suggestions or comments on my list above? None at all?
Hi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG
I really think you have to run at least 3x Jotun grunt it's one of the best creatures in legacy (so important fight the graveyard nowadays). Two tombstalkers are enough even if i don't like it.
Choose duress or thoughtseize and replace the other with cabal therapy if you want to run many discards and absolutely use 4x tourach!
Sensei it's bad and i suggest 4X Vindicate.
You could use one less land for another stp.
Against Goyf, Planar Void is the card you want. It's the one card that really shuts Goyf down. However, if you use the Void, you can't really be using Grunts, so it's a tradeoff. Sticking to mono-black creaturebase might just work though as it gives you the freedom to use Dystopia too, which is an absolute beating against Threshold.
My creature configuration is VERY similar to Hummingbirds, I also run 4 Confis and 3 Tombstalker, the only difference is my 4th Shade. I also run 3 Tops to back uo Confidant and avoid revealing Tombstalkers. Top is very strong on its own, too, when both decks are in topdeck mode, which happens quite often with Deadguy Ale.
But I agree with Mersercus that "4x Hymn" is not openm for discussion. All decks fear the Hymn. And don't side them out against Thresh, really.
@Mesercus:
What? Cabal Therapy? With 10 Creatures? Seems iffy to me... And Sensei's Divining Top is awesome. Playtest it and you'd learn why; it's insane. You win topdeck wars you need. You don't draw Thoughtseize or other discard or creature kill when you don't need them; you don't lose to Confidant...
@Eldariel:
Void shuts down Tombstalker; I'm not inclined to do that unless I can find another good black creature. Which hardly exist. Dystopia costs me life, and I'm not keen on that. But then again, my removal suite already rapes Thresh.
@Tao:
Not to side them out against Thresh? But why? Normally Hymns and Discard against Thresh seem too slow to stem the threats alone; because of that(and imagine the horrible topdeck Hymn is!) I side them out for a more reliable plan of removing their threats when they hit play(which is harder for Thresh to escape); Siding into an MBC-ish deck also bumps the matchup against thresh up quite nicely...
Also, could I see your list, please, Tao? Thanks!
To me, Hymns are gold vs thresh. They know you've got plenty of SB hate for them and use their countermagic carefully.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG
Thresh pack 8-12 threats with what, 11-14 countermagic backup vs your 6-8 SB cards ?
Mid-game (say, with 3+ lands) topdecked discard get rid of held countermagic like, say, Daze + FoW (unless they kept SpellSnare this long) and clear the way for next turn hate (Dystopia, Vindicate, EE, SPox, Damnation etc...).
Dropping 7 discard effect vs Thresh could lead your drawn Damnation dazed or StP Forced imho.
11-14 Countermagic? What? Okay, so I see 4 Force, 4 Daze, and if my opponent is straight U/g, 3-4 Spell Snares, if not, 2-3 Counterbalances...Where's 14? Besides, Spell Snare only hits 3 of my removal out of 16, and does nothing against Stalker(CB folds to Vindicate, and EE, too. And cant counter Stalker either).
Yes, call me paranoïd but I do think that several builds of Threshold pack a minimum of 4xFoW+Daze and 3xStifle//Spellsnare//CounterBalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG
UGr builds often pack a li'l more (like Stifle AND SpellSnare for ex.), and UGw also have access to MD/SB Meddling Mage or Needle (which aren't really "countermagic" I concede) so they don't have to care countering stuff like EE or whatever you bring in.
Now, if it works well for you, great. I'm just arguing that when you side out discard vs decks packing countermagic you're running a risk that your sideboarded cards won't impact 2nd and 3rd game due to the fact they'ld be countered.
(And UGb run some discard too)
Has this never happened to you with this SB strategy ?!
Well, there's a ton of redundancy in the deck, as I have 16 removal cards, 3 super-blockers(Shade) and 3 cards red-Thresh can't deal with and that are pains for White Thresh to deal with(Stalker), so I don't think they can counter all. I still have 4 Thoughtseize maindeck, which can pick out creatures and counters, too.
However, I think I could consider siding out Dark Rituals instead of some number of Duress or Hymns. What do you think?
here's my latest build for a tourney upcoming saturday:
creatures:
4xconfidant
2xspectral lynx
3xnantuko shade
2xjotun grunt
instants:
2xextirpate
3xswords to plowshares
4xdark ritual
sorceries:
4xsinkhole
2xduress(havent got the other thougthseizes so this is my replacement)
2xthougthseize
4xhymn
3xvindicate
artifacts:
3xengineered explosives
land:
1xtomb of urami
4xscrubland
4xmire
1xtainted field
12xswamp
sb:
4xchainer's edict
3xdisenchant
4xwithered wretch
4xengineered plague
i really like this list, it has a really good aggro-control mu, a decent aggro mu and a good combo mu.
maybe i could fit some more discard in it(2 verdicts, funeral chamr or duress)
i play main extirpate becuase i excpect there will be loam decks and controll decks like lanstill. hes good too against combo.
i never lost against thresholg with this list so that wil be okay.
does somebody has to say something about this lsit because the tourney is saturday and im not 100% sure about the list.
Why spectral lynx? There are better things for that slot, and you should already have goyf covered. And vindicate should be a 4-of. No exceptions ^_^
i think youre right about the lynx, on my last tourney i had no profit from the lynx so i think i cut it for 1 vindicate and 1 jotun grunt.
what about the extirpates?
are they really good enough to play it main or shal i cut them for some more discard or something like that?
I personally favor a suite of 4 Duress 4 Seize. If you can't get 4 Thoughtseize, stick with the two you have, but run 4 Duress anyway. Also, my personal view is that Sinkhole is far too slow for the current meta. And, if you're runnign Sinkhole, why no Wasteland?
For the Spectral Lynxes, I think you can replace them with Tombstalker, who is absolutely asatounding against Thresh(he kills everything they have, and flies so they can't block him, and only White Thresh doesn't have a very hard time killing him)
IMO, Extirpate main is hardly necessary. Especially with the little discard that you run. I think you can cut it to run more Duresses.
Also, I like a singleton Volraths stronghold very much, especially when recurring threats against Control.
oops, sorry forget to type it but i play wastelands.
i think tombstalker hurd too much with confidant so i dont play em but i will test it.
sinkhole has let me won too many games for me to cut it but in a loam, thresh and combo meta it isnt necessary so i think i will cut it for more discard and other disruption. maybe i could fit in a 4th jotun grunt?
yes, the volrath is very good too so i will play it once.
i shal post my new list when its more tested.
I see you running Sinkhole without Sensei's Divining Top, though. As well with several other cards which can be situational(e.g. Swords to Plowshares). Perhaps, you could consider running top to reduce the number of dead cards you draw?(if you do, run 4 Polluted Deltas too; the lifegain isn't much.)
Also, if you run Top, I believe you can safely run Tombstalker.
i will test with the top but i dont have top now and the tourney is saturday so i will play it without. im gonna test without sinkholes but i think i will keep them becasue i really like them.
thanks for your advise and if i end up t8 i will write a tourney report.
greets, electrolyze
I agree that Tombstalker is a mustplay in this deck. And Top is good, too. You have to accept to lose 1 of 20 games by revealing a Stalker when on low life. But he will win many games that other creatures could never win. He has evasion like Specter and when he attacks the opponent is in great trouble, too. And once he is down, he will not die like Jotun Grunt. Grunt is good, too but for obvious reasons you can't run both in the same deck. And Stalker is just that much better. Usually bigger than Goyf, usually unburnable, wins races.
My creature configuration would be like this:
4x Confidant
4x Nantuko Shade
3x Tombstalker
0-3 Meta Slots (Withered Wretch, Spectral Lynx, Black Knight)
About your creaturebase, Tao: don't you find that too many creatures? Instead of running 11-14, personally I run 10, and prefer to fill out the remaining slots instead with creature removal or disruption...
ok, this is my new list without sinkholes and a little exlplosives tech(dotn know if it really works well but i see a lot of staxx too and crucible is a pain in my ass so explosives on 3 would be great):
4xconfidant
3xgrunt
3xshade
2xextirpate
4xstp
4xdark ritual
4xvindicate
4xduress
2xthoughtseize
4xexlposives
4xhymn
1xcity of brass
4xscrubland
4xbloodstained mire
1xtomb of urami
4xwasteland
8xswamp
this list im gonna play saturday i think, as you can see i run a lot of ramoval and more discard then earlier. in my meta i think extirpate are good but i dont know if i put some more creatures in my list instead of extiprate because i run all the threaths a want to run so i dont have to put more disruption in it.
my real list contains stronghold, more thoughtseizes but i cant get them before saturday so this is my list for now.
i know tombstalker is a good creature but i dont think this list need it very hard becuase i play enuogh removal to beat with my grunt and shades.
i hope there wont be many staxx decks and ohther decks like that because then sinkhole is really good aginast those decks.
what about the city of brass/explosives interaction? i really want to see how this works out but dont know if its really neccesary. in my old list i was runnning one tainted field and i think im only gonna use it 2 or 3 time mid/late game so it wont hurt a lot and city is often usefuller then tainted field.
4 Engineered Explosives? Don't get me wrong, I like EE, but there *are* some matches when it's dead and all...however if that doesn't occur much in your meta its fne.
Also, City of Brass seems like nice tech, but why don't you instead run 4 Polluted Deltas, and then run Underground Sea, Bandlands or Bayou? A third colour easily fetchable is always good, IMHO better than a random one off.
in all the matches i've played exlosives wasnt a death card and i really want it to topdeck against many decks, actually there is just one deck from te 15 different decks i played with this build i dont had to use them.
like i said, im still testing them 4x so maybe i will change it to 3 and youre right about the city but i wanted to have a land that made white, because a badlands would be a nonbasic swamp for me and that is just really bad aainst many cards. the reason why the field in the deck was for extra white and i wasnt fetchable too. but as i said, i shal try it.
thanks again for the advise
I would go:Quote:
Originally Posted by electrolyze
-1x EE / +1x Extirpate
-1x City of Brass / +1x Bayou (or Badlands/Underground Sea)
-1x Swamp / +1x Urborg (great with wastelands/tomb of urami/ v.stronghold)
-1x Swamp / +1x Godless Shrine (this +1 BW Dual saved me so many times, try it)
Maybe I would use 2 more fetchlands (fuel for Jotun Grunt). What is your sideboard or meta ?
sb:
4xchainer's edict
3xdisenchant
4xplague
4xwithered wretch
my meta consist of many aggro-control and combo decks, thats the reason why i cutted sinkholes and putted more discard ans explosives in.
the problem is that i dont have more fetch then 4xmire:p
the reason of tainted field was extra white so i think im gonnan run plateau then instead of a black based dual for explosives.
maybe maindeck withered wretch 2x is fun too because hes really good against laom, and thats the only deck i have a real problem with.
City of brass should be something else. I know you want the possibility of hitting EE for 3, but what are the chances of having an unfetchable 1-of land and an EE when you want to? If you really are into that, replace swamps with other duals; at least they don't do you damage every time you tap them and can get fetched.
youre right, i play bayou now and i like it, i've putted krosan grip side now because i can make green now. i dont want to make it deadguy rock so dont say, 'why dont you make it deadguy rock becuase of your green splash'.
i only play the grips over disnchant for counterbalance, back to basic, shackles and other irritating arti/enchantments in counterdecks.
should i add one extra bayou or not?
For your question, how many bayou are you already playing? And, if you're only running 4 green cards and 7-8 cards that run green, I don't think, personally, you need more than one. Depends, though, especially on how many Wastelands there are in your meta...
About Jotun Grunt, I really dislike him. He only shines against Thresh(for his brand of Graveyard hate is faaar too slow against other decks, and Loam can dodge it by dredging up the loam and not keeping it in the Grave during your upkeep), and against Thresh I'd rather have a guaranteed 5-turn clock in Tombstalker(including the turn you play him, where he has summoning sickness); Tombstalker also flies where Jotun Grunt gets chumped by 1/1 Mongeese, then Bolted out of play(or, otherwise, just chumped by /1 Mongeese).
Against other decks, Grunt is merely a 4/4 for two that dies easily. Why not the possibility of a 5/5 for two that flies, can't be EE'd/Powder Keg'd, can't die on its own, as compared to a 4/4 which hoses one deck and is merely subpar against the rest of the meta(Tombstalker is at least as good as Grunt against Thresh, for the reasons I have mentioned)?
You're not the only one who run Tombstalker in place of Grunt. Still, Sensei's Top was added beside the Stalker in my deck to minimize le LifeLoss risk with confidant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG
HERE is a list played at GP Krakow and made top8 in a 47 player sideEvent.
I'm not fond with the Flooded Strand and basic Plain as 1-of's thought. Fetching a basic plain with only 4xStP and 4xVindicates when running 3xShades is not that hot, evenmore with only one way to fetch it.
Idem for the lone Thoughtseize. I can understand a 3/2 split between Duresses and Seizes due to life loss problems, but I'd rather play Duress as Thoughtseize #4-5 than run a Thoughtseize as Duress #4-5.
Meta choice I suppose ?
Deckbreakdown:
Goblins: 6
Burn: 4
Grow: 4 (2 R, 1 W, 1 U/G)
Belcher: 3
IGG (Iggy Pop): 1
Solidarity: 4
Dredge: 3
Ying Yang: 3
Landstill: 2
43Land.dec: 2
Terrageddon: 1
AngelStaxx: 1
Affinity: 1
Survival: 1
AyB.aseruption: 1
BDW: 1
Rogue: 9
I was just looking at your side event breakdown and what the heck is yin-yang? I hope it is not some fancy name for B/W pikula.
Yup, Germans (and even Sourcers) call DeadGuy Ale YingYang.Quote:
Originally Posted by cann0nfodder
I think (but I'm not certain) that YingYang was in fact B/W disruption.dec before GP:Philly and Chris Pikula success with his Homebrew deck.
Well, YingYang, Pikula.dec, Deadguy, B/w Confidant... who cares ?! It's the deck and the pilot which really matter, not the (fancy) name.