[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

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Originally Posted by wbw

Except if the opponent probed you and saw you have no other land, turn 1 Wasteland is a really bad play from your opponent, if he/she is already facing your Delver. Sometimes you may lose due to this bad play, but sometimes your opponent just gave you a free Time Walk.

Let's play the reverse game, you are on the draw with this hand: Fetch, Wasteland, Daze, Delver, Ponder, Brainstorm, Stifle. Your opponent starts with Fetch>Volcanic>Delver>Go! Now it is your turn, would you waste your opponent's land?

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I would not waste here and I think that's the point you are trying to make though? Pointing out how bad that would be for your opponent to waste you after a T1 Delver on the play.

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Originally Posted by wbw

Assuming I have no idea what deck opponent is playing, I would keep this hand and play Delver on turn 1 after fetching a Volcanic Island. Depending on my opponent turn 1 play, I could Daze it and then keep Stifle/Bolt mana up.

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100% agree with you here. I would add that I would let almost all "fluff" spells resolve (Ponder, Brainstorm, etc.) and aggressively go after T1 business plays that my opponent has.

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Originally Posted by wbw

By the way, Brainstorm on opponent's EoT is not a good play. I don't even think you should be desperate at digging a second land, the proposed hand has interaction for a couple of turns and you can wait and see if you naturally draw a second mana source. However, if after a few turns your opponent managed to get rid of your Delver, your only other threat is green and you still haven't found your second land, you may want to use your Brainstorm to find it. But, you should do it during your main phase, since you will see one more card this way.

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Again agree here. The best Brainstorm is the one that you don't use. It's difficult to do, but holding out longer for Brainstorm only makes them better and better. You will have more knowledge of the game to work off, you will be looking deeper in your deck, more likely to naturally draw a shuffle effect, and it is best to use on your turn like wbw said.

So I recently played in a legacy for duals event that had 51 players and I ended up finishing 11th. My final record was 4/2 and the 2 people I lost to did make top 8 and one of them took first which is awesome. Anyways on to the actual tournament report.

Stock 54 main deck with a 2/2/2 split on spell pierce, forked bolt and spell snare.

Sideboard:
2 flusterstorm
2 envelop
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 vendilion clique
2 submerge
2 rough // tumble
2 grafdigger’s cage
1 ancient grudge
1 krosan grip

Round 1 Shardless bug 2/0
Definitely one of our worst match ups, but I did know what he was on and kept a solid hand against him. My opener had waste, waste, delver, force, fetch, and I think a cantrip or removal something like that. My delver flipped and I was able to waste him 3 times back to back after finding a third after a cantrip.

Game 2
I kept a hand with a goyf some permission a wasteland and a stifle I think. After getting a goyf down turn 2 and stifling his second fetch he played out a strix. I cantriped found a forked bolt and goyf swung for 5. He had an abrupt decay on his turn followed by me playing a second goyf on my turn. Somewhere around turn 5 he thoughtseized and saw my hand of force, submerge, stifle and snare all redundant and very good against him. Goyf got there in a turn or two after forcing a shardless agent and submerging the other one for Goyf to go in for the kill.

Round 2 Aluren1/2
So game 1 I kind of punted. I kept a standard hand of permission some cantrips and a Goyf. Unfortunately it’s Aluren so goyf kept getting stonewalled at every turn. Eventually he got to 3 and I had goyf out and force, delver, land in hand, he had 2 cards in hand 6 lands out. I decided to play delver out leaving me with a dead force in hand. I remember going through the math of having 4 cantrips + 3 bolts left in my library. I knew his outs were going to be something like 2 strix, 4 abrupt decays. The main thing I didn’t want to happen was him shardless agent into strix/decay. Unfortunately his other two cards were Aluren and imperial recruiter and he won on my upkeep.

Game 2 I got there with a goose and a goyf. I made sure to keep deathrite and strixes off the board and I pierced an Aluren. That’s the one bright side about this match up is their combo piece is 4 mana which makes pierce and daze pretty good.

Game 3 I kept a fairly heavy creature hand of delver, goose, goyf and he had a much better hand. He had something like 2 deathrites and a carpet of flowers in addition he also had a strix and decay.

Round 3 Infect 2/0
I think this is probably one of our best combo matches. They rely on operating with very little mana and all their combo pieces our removal hits. Game 1 I kept a bit of a control like hand of countermagic and removal. Eventually I got a goyf and goose out and made short work of his life total.

Game 2 I had a delver and some bolts to make for a fast start. I killed a few of his threats a long with wastelanding one of his 2 inkmoths he had. He eventually got a noble hirearch + inkmoth and I was at 4 poison and he had 8 life. I played out a goose and goyf and then passed. He swung in for another 2 passed back. I attacked for lethal forcing him to block with his inkmoth and noble. The next turn I got there with lethal on board between 3 creatures.

Round 4 UR delver 2/1
Game 1 I lost pretty fast. He was on the play with a really fast hand of delver and 2 swiftspears. There wasn’t much I could do I could deal with the delver, but couldn’t stop the swiftspears fast enough. After he dropped a young pyromancer that sealed the deal.

Game 2 He was on a mull to 5 and I had a really good hand with goose and goyf. That’s one good thing about this match up they really can’t beat our green threats.

Game 3 was really close and one of my best games of the day. I had a delver going for a while and then he was able to kill it after a few hits. That’s where things got interesting. He got 2 swiftspears out again and we were off to the races with my geese against his swiftspears. After he landed a TNN he passed and I then I passed back. He attacked with TNN leaving his swiftspears back to block my goyf and a goose. I went into the tank for a while because he had 1 card in hand and I had a rough in hand. Eventually I realized things weren’t going to get better I roughed… and he had no instant the geeses and goyf got there.

Round 5 miracles 1/2
Game 1 was really fast. I was otp and had a hand goose some protection a wasteland and a stifle. He was pretty mana choked after my wasteland and stifle struck gold. Goose got to threshold fast after some cantrips and he couldn’t stabilize in time.

Game 2 was a bit rough. I got a goose out on turn 3 after holding up a fair amount of counter magic the early turns (fluster, pyroblast, daze and snare). After I played the goose out I played a ponder and passed with one mana up. He Attempted a terminus on his draw step which got stifled. The thing was I was tapped out and then he played out a counterbalance which resolved. That was pretty much game and we moved to game 3. In retrospect I may have played too much on instinct by stifling the fetch. I didn’t have another threat in hand, but I also should have taken time to consider what his follow up would be and the repercussions for tapping out without force.

Game 3 I had a good hand with goose some cantrips and permission. Eventually around turn 5 or something he was at 8 and landed a counterbalance. Two turns later I drew Krosan grip and it felt great… until he played out another counterbalance on his turn. He had been floating a second counterbalance for two drops which is definitely right just unfortunate for me. I talked it over with him after the game and he said normally what I did was right, but in that particular scenario hitting top would have been more detrimental. I couldn’t have known that, but that’s just how the game went.

Round 6 Mirror 2/1
There was a small chance that a 4/2 would make it so I decided to play out my 6th round. It was the mirror which I actually really like. He won the die role, but kept a trop delver hand and 2 wastelands. My hand was more mana heavy with some disruption and a wasteland. After dealing with his delver we both had force back up, but he didn’t have a second counter for my force I got to wasteland him. That was pretty much game I got a goose out and he didn’t draw mana after that.

Game 2 He had a really good delver hand and there wasn’t much I could do. After a stifle and a wasteland I was just too far behind to catch up. Much like game 1 but the tables had turned.

Game 3 Was really fun. I had a turn 1 delver hand unfortunately it didn’t flip. He had played out a goose and it gave me a really interesting choice. I had a goose in hand as well as a wasteland. I swung in with delver after being slightly puzzled he blocked with goose. Second main phase I wasted him and played out a goose. That’s one thing in the mirror it’s pretty much who gets more goyfs or geese since we can’t answer either of them. Shortly after that I had drawn some stifles and fought over his fetches. After I stifled 2 fetches and wasted him he was too far behind and couldn’t answer goose.

Overall it was a really good tournament. I think I played tight all day except in my game 1 against Aluren. I’m still not sure which was the better choice in the outcome that he has decay or shardless playing out delver was right. That’s something like at least 6 outs at the time I think and he still had 2 cards in hand. Holding delver back for force fodder only really helps if he just has one creature, both combo pieces or brainstorms to try and find an out. I guess in the outcome he plays shardless I’m still favored with 3 bolts to draw despite being stonewalled for 2 turns (or 1 if I force, but if I commit to this line I just hold force for where it matters like strix, brainstorm, Aluren etc).

My games against miracles were all good and I had played against him a lot before in testing. Talking some after the tournament we talked and he thinks I’m favored game 1 which might be right. I’ve always felt that miracles is 50/50 or close to it, but sideboard they get a lot more early game pieces to deal with our threats. Postboard they have at least 5 threats to trade with our geese (some of which trade with delver as well). They also get an EE and maybe something like a supreme verdict. Still probably one of my favorite matches to play with RUG it has so many interesting interactions.

@contractkiller: still a very solid finish! grats! i might pick this deck back on March 1, im on a streak with 3 top8's via UGInfect, i would love to stifle fetches back again with RUG, your SB is very solid, i might use that list...

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Originally Posted by poxy14

@contractkiller: still a very solid finish! grats! i might pick this deck back on March 1, im on a streak with 3 top8's via UGInfect, i would love to stifle fetches back again with RUG, your SB is very solid, i might use that list...

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Thanks yeah after testing some with it I really like the envelops in the board. They're very versatile hitting miracles and the 3 most played combo decks storm, elves and show and tell variants. The other nice part about envelop against miracles is that it actually counters terminus/entreat. Stifle more or less counters it, but it's still only a tempo play and we end up having to deal with that same terminus down the road after they brainstorm or something. This way countering the terminus we actually trade 1 for 1 and not just buy time. I mean time is all we really need against miracles but it still helps to add more pressure for less outs to deal with goose. Even against burn I actually think envelop is ok I mean it hits what 12 bolt variants against them still better than stifle maybe hitting a fetch or a rift bolt. I think there were 3 UG infect decks at the tournament I was at. It was definitely tier 1 pre kahns and is slowly regaining popularity now that cruise is banned.

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Originally Posted by cartothemax

I would not waste here and I think that's the point you are trying to make though? Pointing out how bad that would be for your opponent to waste you after a T1 Delver on the play.

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Exactly!

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

Thanks yeah after testing some with it I really like the envelops in the board. They're very versatile hitting miracles and the 3 most played combo decks storm, elves and show and tell variants. The other nice part about envelop against miracles is that it actually counters terminus/entreat. Stifle more or less counters it, but it's still only a tempo play and we end up having to deal with that same terminus down the road after they brainstorm or something. This way countering the terminus we actually trade 1 for 1 and not just buy time. I mean time is all we really need against miracles but it still helps to add more pressure for less outs to deal with goose. Even against burn I actually think envelop is ok I mean it hits what 12 bolt variants against them still better than stifle maybe hitting a fetch or a rift bolt. I think there were 3 UG infect decks at the tournament I was at. It was definitely tier 1 pre kahns and is slowly regaining popularity now that cruise is banned.

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A card I like to have against miracles is Pithing Needle. But your sideboard is already pretty good, no idea if it is worth to cut something to have a needle.

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Originally Posted by wbw

A card I like to have against miracles is Pithing Needle. But your sideboard is already pretty good, no idea if it is worth to cut something to have a needle.

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Pithing needle is good against miracles, but not much else. Outside of miracles it’s good against D&T and Maverick, but that’s about it. The thing about pithing needle is it’s the epitome of virtual card advantage. You can name one thing with it like Deathrite, mom, or rishadan port but it still doesn’t have that big of an impact. If we draw it too late than the damage is already done and needle won’t do a lot. Miracles though can get crippled by needle because they rely on top. I’m not saying needle is bad, but outside of miracles it’s utility diminishes.

On another note I just finished a weekly and went 3/1
Round 1 Glenn Jones 4c Delver 1/2
Game 1 He’s on the play and I keep a delver hand with a lot of can trips and a delver. He gets a deathrite out early on and I try to find some removal for it but can’t. Eventually he gets a second deathrite out in addition to a delver in the air and I get flooded out with 4 lands and my cantrips bricking on removal.

Game 2 I keep a delver hand and things go great. I daze his first turn deathrite and delver flips off of a second daze. Turn 3 I wasteland him and he is having to play around the stifle in my hand (he had probe so he knew). I play out a second delver turn 4 and the game wraps up shortly after that.

Game 3 I just kind of punted this one. I keep a hand with pyroblast, bolt, ponder, brainstorm, trop, stifle, daze. He leads off on delver pass. My turn I ponder and see force, wasteland, delver. I thought that drawing the force into wasteland with the stifle in hand might buy me enough time to find red mana and deal with the delver. He wastelands me turn 2 and I didn’t draw another land.

Round 2 Storm 2/0
Game 1 I keep a hand of ponder, brainstorm, brainstorm, fetch, wasteland, goose, goose. He has turn 1 duress taking my ponder. I play out a goose on my turn and pass. His turn he brainstorms plays petal preordain bottom bottom pass. I wasteland him and that was pretty much game.

Game 2 I keep a delver hand with force, snare flusterstorm, clique and some lands. I think I stifled a land turn 2 and I had a enough pressure that he tried to go for ad nauseam and I just had too much counter magic for him to play around.

Round 3 UWR midrange 2/0
Game 1 there wasn’t a whole lot going on I kept a hand with goose poking him the first few turns trying to figure out what he was on. He lead with island ponder and played some more cantrips in the early turns. Ultimately he just got flooded having 5+ lands (tundras and volcnaics) out at the end of the game. He did try to stabilize at 8 or so with monastery mentor, but I had the bolt for it… and the second mentor… the third mentor stuck. He had 3 back to back the first 2 I dealt with and the third my 2 geese ate away at while he was top decking.

Game 2 I keep another hand with goose and he isn’t nearly as mana flooded. I get a wasteland or two off, but they didn’t do much. Right when goose was about to get online he landed RIP which I tried to fight over with snare, but he had force. So the game went fairly long I think somewhere down the line I drew a delver and was able to protect it while goose kept poking him. Despite him landing RIP goose still got there I just had to counter every young pyromancer and mentor until delver arrived lol

Round 4 BUG Delver
Game 1 He won the roll and had a delver hand. He tried to play out a delver on his turn 1, but it got hit with a forked bolt that he tried to daze and then I dazed back. Eventually while he was can tripping I got my delver out on turn 2 or 3. It beat him down to 12 or I so I think and then he landed goyf. He tried to race, but I was too far ahead.

Game 2 I had another delver hand and also a lot of mana denial. The early turns I fought over his threats much like game 1. He played out another delver with a fetch up. On my turn I fetched with a dual up, he fetched in response. I stifled his and he didn’t have a counter. My delver eventually got there and that sealed the deal.

One of my friends was playing a really interesting list at that tournament too it was:
Stock 54 RUG with 2 snare/ 2 forked bolt/ 2 standstill.

He said he was just tooling around with it since it was an area that he hadn’t seen explored much in RUG and thought it might be worth a shot. While he didn’t have any amazing success with it that night (mainly just ripped from his hand, pitched to force, or countered) it did intrigue me.

Here’s how I’m looking at it that it’s a more tempo oriented sylvan library for us. Sylvan library to begin with is almost main deck playable in rug with a few flaws mainly that it doesn’t do anything the turn it’s played. Standstill on the other hand remedies this by playing right into our game plan of letting the opponent make the first move and then fight over it with counters a, b and c.

Essentially the way I see it there are 2 possible scenarios for having standstill in RUG.

Scenario A: We have a threat out and they have an empty board. We’re already ahead and after we swing with our threat that will test if they have removal. If they don’t we can slam standstill second main and there’s not much they can do at that point. At worst it eats a force or something at best we get recall.

Scenario B: They already have a board presence with deathrite or something. Unless we have a Goyf it’s probably wrong to play it or if we have goose a large graveyard and few creatures in the bins. This scenario it’s going to be bad, but we could do other things while we wait for the scales to turn in our favor.

Now with that being said there are also a few decks that I think this would be great against. Shardless BUG constantly wants to tap every turn and playing it out against them helps us keep up with them. Miracles is another deck that if we have a goyf or delver out if we land standstill they’ll eventually have to do something. Any other tempo or fair decks so long as we have a threat out if we land this the game might as well be over.
I haven’t done a whole lot of testing with it yet, but it seems worthwhile to try. In addition like stifle it could lead to some easy wins because of people not knowing how to play against it very well. It does the exact thing RUG wants it forces the opponents hand.

Guys what do you think to my build? I plan to borrow poxy's rug for a tournament on march 1 but i decided to make it something different that will surprise all my opponent.

Heres my list:

4 goyf
4 delver
4 swiftspear
(12 creature)

4 fow
4 daze
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 l bolt
4 gprobe
3 f bolt
2 preordain
1 ddt
(30 os)

3 s tarn
3 misty r
2 wooded f
2 wasteland
3 volc
3 trop
1 island
1 mountain
(18 land)


1 hull breach
2 pyroblast
1 a grudge
1 p needle
1 cursed totem
2 g cage
1 s ooze
1 dismember
1 krosan g
1 flusterstorm
1 negate
2 submerge
1 surgical e
1 grim lavamancer
(15 sb)


I've play test this build and it was fast to kill an opponent and once goyf is on play he/she will be shock because he might think that im a ur delver. Also theres a high chance that my opponent could sb a wrong card. And that will be a high percentage that i could win the match. I wish i can have your yes to my build and approval to the owner of the deck poxy14. Thanks and more fun of playing magic, god bless for all of us.

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Originally Posted by zzregz

Guys what do you think to my build? I plan to borrow poxy's rug for a tournament on march 1 but i decided to make it something different that will surprise all my opponent.

Heres my list:

4 goyf
4 delver
4 swiftspear
(12 creature)

4 fow
4 daze
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 l bolt
4 gprobe
3 f bolt
2 preordain
1 ddt
(30 os)

3 s tarn
3 misty r
2 wooded f
2 wasteland
3 volc
3 trop
1 island
1 mountain
(18 land)


1 hull breach
2 pyroblast
1 a grudge
1 p needle
1 cursed totem
2 g cage
1 s ooze
1 dismember
1 krosan g
1 flusterstorm
1 negate
2 submerge
1 surgical e
1 grim lavamancer
(15 sb)


I've play test this build and it was fast to kill an opponent and once goyf is on play he/she will be shock because he might think that im a ur delver. Also theres a high chance that my opponent could sb a wrong card. And that will be a high percentage that i could win the match. I wish i can have your yes to my build and approval to the owner of the deck poxy14. Thanks and more fun of playing magic, god bless for all of us.

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To be honest it looks bad. If you want to run swiftspear that bad build UR delver since young pyromancer can synergize better with swiftspear. No stifle is just horrible. Despite how dead or meh that card can be it's what separates good RUG pilots from bad pilots. It's the hardest card to use in the deck, but it can be game changers. Preordain we don't want you already running 4 probes which without young pyromancer I think is a bit eccentric.

Three forked bolt might be a bit meta gaming decision, but I could get on board with that if you expect a lot of elves, d&t or maverick. Ddt which I'm assuming is supposed to be DTT dig through time is ok I've tried it and it's not horrible, but if you run geese it can have some awkward scenarios. Dropping wasteland again seems bad. I guess since you're not playing stifle the whole mana denial plan is worst but wasteland is just so good. Daze is also much worse in this build because you don't have mana denial.

I mean your list is just so far deviated from the base standards it looks bad on paper, but who knows it might be good. I mean goose can be slow, but it sticks around where as swiftspear will die fast. Not having mana denial is a key part of our game plan and gives so much added value to daze. UR delver can run without mana denial because they are faster and have late game finishers in price of progress. I can already tell you your miracles match up will be disgusting without any stifles, snares or pierces.

If you want to look like UR delver, but have more resilient threats like goyf I would play something like this:
http://www.magiccorporation.com/gath...-post-ban.html
I've played against this list and it's a really good list. Many people associate stifle with just RUG and you can definitely get people with this list. Dig through time is amazing in here with 4 probes and 4 wastelands to help feed it. TNN is the best threat you could want to help push those last points of damage.

@zzregz: i do agree with contractkiller that the list posted above will have problems vs removal.decs, swiftspear though fast will have its problem vs opposing goyfs, abrupt decays, stps, tons or removals...goose though slow, will not need any of our counters to protect itself..and with your list running a small count of 12 creatures, significant clock/pressure might be a problem once you face bigger creatures/tons or removals.

my current crit config is at 13
4 delvers
4 goyfs
4 goose
1 tnn

without stifles too, dazes and pierces becomes weak. i will never play rug without 3 to 4 stifles main.
it's very good vs storm too, planeswalkers, triggers, etc... it'll do you wonders, i promise!

I see there are some other people in this thread trying to grind on Canadian Threshold on Magic Online. I just thought I would put together a little breakdown for where I am at for the current MODO metagame. I would say the meta has gotten a little bit harder since Treasure Cruise was banned but I think Canadian Threshold is once again one of the best decks in the meta.

Main Deck
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sideboard
3 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce

Main Deck Discussion:

3 Stifle - 3 Spell Pierce

The 4th Stifle isn’t that great. Stifle is best on the play, and Canadian Threshold is already hugely advantaged when it’s on the play.The 3rd Spell Pierce, the 6th burn spell and the 3rd Gitaxian Probe are all better than the 4th Stifle.

2 Tafire - 3 Gitaxian Probe

It may seem outlandish to abandon the potential card advantage of Forked Bolt for the more consistent Tarfire. However, the potential upside of Forked Bolt is typically mitigated by various factors in the situations where Forked Bolt would be best. Elves runs Wirewood Symbiote and to lesser extent Quirion Ranger (protects Dryad Arbor) to block the 2 for 1, Forked Bolt can’t answer an end of turn Aether Vial’ing of Mother of Runes into play against Death and Taxes. Against Lingering Souls tokens, Tarfire can do a Forked Bolt impression by killing one of the two tokes after blockers to keep your Insectile Aberration alive. There are a lot of creatures in Legacy that we need to kill in short order if we want to win (Deathrire Shaman, Mother of Runes, Delver of Secrets, Stoneforge Mystic, Dark Confidant). Instant speed gives us more potential to outplay our opponent, and the Tribal boost for Tarmogoyf is more relevant when racing combo decks and makes Tarmogoyf larger than Tasigur, the Golden Fang.

Running 6 burn spells and 3 Gitaxian Probes is part of an effort to maximize our chances against blue based decks with Deathrite Shaman. BUG Delver in particular is pretty tricky match up. The BUG opponent is able to reliably kill our Tarmogoyf with Abrupt Decay where we only have burn spells against the opponent’s Tarmogoyf. Deathrite Shaman is insane against us where Nimble Mongoose is much less disruptive to our Delver opponent’s game plan. Our best bet in this match is to manage our opponents Deathrite Shamans and Delver of Secrets with burn spells and try to keep Tarmogoyfs off the battlefield with counterspells. This will result Nimble Mongoose being able to trump the board. 3 Gitaxian Probes and 6 burn gives us the best chance to accomplish this along with the 3 Submerges in the sideboard.

3 Tarmogoyf

Trimming the twelfth creature is the best move for the current metagame. Canadian Threshold’s creatures get our opponent dead reasonably quickly, but they are not very interactive compared to cards like Deathrite Shaman and Stoneforge Mystic, which have the potential to be highly disruptive to an opponent’s game plan. The 4th Tarmogoyf is cut for the 3rd Gitaxian Probe. The extra cantrip makes helps accelerate Nimble Mongoose and helps us better utilize our disruption. There is too much potential for flooding on threats with twelve creatures and Gitaxian Probe is a fantastic card for the deck, I couldn’t be happier with the change.

Sideboard Discussion:

2 Tormod’s Crypt

Replacing Grafdigger’s Cage with Tormod’s Crypt was an essential breakthrough for combating the metagame. Tormod’s Crypt is extremely effective against ANT. Hampering Cabal Ritual and preventing a Past in Flames for the low price of zero mana is enough to turn the matchup positive.
Against Elves, I already have 7 cards to bring in against Elves (3 Submerge, 2 Rough,1 Spell Pierce, 1 Flusterstorm) and 7 cards to bring out (4 Daze, 3 Stifle). Where I have 5 Spell Pierce effects post board, Grafdigger’s Cage is not needed.
Reanimator players are mostly on the Abrupt Decay plan to answer hate these days. Crypt is much better than Cage against Abrupt Decay because our opponent will lose whatever was in gis or graveyard when we activate Crypt in response to Decay. Contrary to Grafdigger's Cage, Careful Study or Entomb do very little before the Reanimator player finds the Abrupt Decay.
Tormod’s Crypt is effective against Life from the Loam froms Lands strategies, where Grafdigger’s Cage does nothing.

3 Submerge

Essential against BUG Delver as I already mentioned in my Tarfire Discussion. Having 3 Submerge is essential to keep Shardless BUG and Elves positive match ups. People occasionally play Maverick as well.

1 Sulfuric Vortex

Sulfuric Vortex is the ultimate finisher against slower blue based decks. The closest competition is Sylvan Library, but Sylvan Library has worse synergy than Sulfuric Vortex with Gitaxian Probe. Vortex is also much more of a trump card than Sylvan Library, shutting down equipment and cutting through Rest in Peace and Moat type cards. The card is also reasonable against Griselbrand. It can get the final few points in against Reanimator, especially if the opponent has cast the actual Reanimate and lost a bunch of life. Against Sneak and Show, it gives you something to put into play off Show and Tell that might win you the game.

1 Spell Pierce, 1 Flusterstorm

The second Flusterstorm was cut for the fourth Spell Pierce because of Sensei’s Divining Top, Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void and Blood Moon are just too common. In match ups where Flusterstorm is at its best, namely Storm, they are always bringing in Defense Grid and Carpet of Flowers that we want to answer if possible. It is definitely worth hedging our bet and having the fourth Spell Pierce available in the board.

Side Board Guide:

BUG Delver:
Play: -4 Force of Will, -3 Spell Pierce, +3 Submerge, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Flusterstorm
Draw: -2 Daze, -2 Force of Will, -3 Spell Pierce, +3 Submerge, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Flusterstorm

Shardless BUG-
Play: -4 Force of Will, -1 Spell Pierce, -1 Tarfire, +3 Pyroblast, +3 Submerge
Draw: -2 Daze, -2 Force of Will, -1 Spell Pierce, -1 Tarfire, + 3 Pyroblast, +3 Submerge

Urw Delver-
Play: -4 Force of Will, -1 Spell Pierce, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Destructive Revelry
Draw: -2 Daze, -2 Force of Will, -1 Spell Pierce, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Destructive Revelry

Esper Deathblade-
Play: -4 Force of Will, -1 Spell Pierce, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Sulfuric Vortex
Draw: -2 Daze, - 2 Force of Will, -1 Spell Pierce, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Sulfuric Vortex

Miracles-
Play: -4 Lightning Bolt, -2 Tarfire, -1 Wasteland, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Sulfuric Vortex, +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm
Draw: -4 Lightning Bolt, -2 Tarfire, -1 Daze, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Sulfuric Vortex, +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm

Elves-
Play/Draw: -4 Daze, -3 Stifle, +3 Submerge, +2 Rough/Tumble, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm

Sneak and Show:
Play/Draw: -4 Lightning Bolt, -2 Tarfire, -1 Tarmogoyf, 3 Pyroblast, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Sulfuric Vortex

Reanimator:
Play/Draw: -4 Lightning Bolt. -2 Tarfire. -1 Tarmogoyf, +2 Tormod’s Crypt +2 Pyroblast, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Sulfuric Vortex

ANT:
Play/Draw: -1 Tarmogoyf, -3 Lightning Bolt, -2 Tarfire, +2 Tormod’s Crypt, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm

@bkclassic: we're running almost the same list, and i currently like the 3 stifle built lately..i might change though my 4goyfs to 3 goyfs/1tnn since UR are not dominant lately nowadays...and i like your take on the crypts vs grafs. on your SBs i would change vortex into a cliq for more versatility. combo is just to many nowadays so the 3 pierce main will help alot instead of the snare built.

is it also dangerous on running tarfires with less goyfs vs opposing goyf decks? i would however suggest that if you'll be running tarfires, then go full goyfs for max power.

my current list:
4 delvers / 4 goose / 4 goyfs / 1 TNN (13, i always like having a significant clock on my board or on my hand)
3 stifles / 3 pierces / 1 fice / 1 tarfire / 1 forked / 4 dazes / 4fows / 4 bolts / 4 bstorms / 4 ponders (29)
18 lands (a good 2/2/2/2 split is always recommended, i play 4 wooded foothills and 4 different fetches.... foothills will represent a nonblue deck, and will get opponents caught with stifles due to this fetch config.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by poxy14

@bkclassic: we're running almost the same list, and i currently like the 3 stifle built lately..i might change though my 4goyfs to 3 goyfs/1tnn since UR are not dominant lately nowadays...and i like your take on the crypts vs grafs. on your SBs i would change vortex into a cliq for more versatility. combo is just to many nowadays so the 3 pierce main will help alot instead of the snare built.

is it also dangerous on running tarfires with less goyfs vs opposing goyf decks? i would however suggest that if you'll be running tarfires, then go full goyfs for max power.

my current list:
4 delvers / 4 goose / 4 goyfs / 1 TNN (13, i always like having a significant clock on my board or on my hand)
3 stifles / 3 pierces / 1 fice / 1 tarfire / 1 forked / 4 dazes / 4fows / 4 bolts / 4 bstorms / 4 ponders (29)
18 lands (a good 2/2/2/2 split is always recommended, i play 4 wooded foothills and 4 different fetches.... foothills will represent a nonblue deck, and will get opponents caught with stifles due to this fetch config.)

---

On the suggestion of SB Clique, I think probably an equally good or better configuration would be -1 Flusterstorm, -1 Sulfuric Vortex, +1 Sulfur Elemental, +1 Vendilion Clique. You can bring the Clique in place of Flusterstorm against Elves so it works out great.

On Tarfire, I don't have too many problems with Tarfires and opposing Tarmogoyfs and I don't worry about running only 3 Goyf's. However, running 3 Tarmogoyfs is definitely dependant on running 3 Gitaxian Probes. The extra cantrips cause you to fine more threats. I was running 2 Gitaxian Probes and 4 Goyf's, but I was flooding on threats, not drawing enough interaction and it cost me games. Cutting a Goyf for an extra Probe has been fantastic for me. Against match ups like Death and Taxes and Miracles 11 threats can feel a bit threat light, but you can SB additional threats like more creatures or Sulfuric Vortex. However, when I made that post, the metagame was teaming with BUG Delver. Things have balanced out since then with more Young Pyromancer/Dig Through Time decks being played. Therefore I am going back to Forked Bolts over Tarfires.

As some of you may now I am new to legacy, my friends and I finally scouting the local legacy meta. And I was hoping to get some help on tuning the 75 for the exact meta given:

2 Esper Deathblade
1 Jeskai Stoneblade
1-2 RUG Delver
2-3 Burn
1 Dark Maverick
1 Death and Taxes
1 Shardless BUG
1 Punishing Jund
2 Storm
1 High Tide
1 Lands
1 Miracles
1 Show and Tell

My current MD is 54 with 2 pierce 1 snare 2 Chain Lightning 1 Tarfire because of all the DRSs I will have to face. I think an argument can be made for finding room for a second snare given my meta. I don't know if I really need 2 rough // tumbles. I think 3 pyroblasts and 3 submerges makes sense. I was also thinking that life from the loam can be great. Heres what I have so far

3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
1 Rough // Tumble
1 V Clique
1 TNN
1 Grip
1 Life from the Loam
2 Surgical Extraction

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alix444

As some of you may now I am new to legacy, my friends and I finally scouting the local legacy meta. And I was hoping to get some help on tuning the 75 for the exact meta given:

2 Esper Deathblade
1 Jeskai Stoneblade
1-2 RUG Delver
2-3 Burn
1 Dark Maverick
1 Death and Taxes
1 Shardless BUG
1 Punishing Jund
2 Storm
1 High Tide
1 Lands
1 Miracles
1 Show and Tell

My current MD is 54 with 2 pierce 1 snare 2 Chain Lightning 1 Tarfire because of all the DRSs I will have to face. I think an argument can be made for finding room for a second snare given my meta. I don't know if I really need 2 rough // tumbles. I think 3 pyroblasts and 3 submerges makes sense. I was also thinking that life from the loam can be great. Heres what I have so far

3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
1 Rough // Tumble
1 V Clique
1 TNN
1 Grip
1 Life from the Loam
2 Surgical Extraction

---

You should definitely have another artifact hate in the board if there's 5 decks running a stoneforge package either a ancient grudge or destructive revelry would fit the bill. With 4 dedicated combo decks you should have at least some number of flusterstorms 1 -2. With 3 burn decks and D&T, Dark Maverick I would play forked bolts over chain lightning. I probably would trim the tarfire for a snare since it's great against all the stoneblad variants, D&T, RUG Delver, Shardless BUG, Punishing Jund, Storm and Miracles... so more than half of the meta. Those would be the few changes I would make.

Meta gaming is always a gamble that's why I just run the most conservative list possible. I don't like to gear towards a few decks over others, but that's because my meta is very volatile. There's at least 10 people who could build any tier 1 deck.

I got to play some competitive magic for the first time in a year!

Played at a Mr. Nice Guy's tournament (Monroeville, PA) this past weekend. 24 players, 5 rounds, cut to top 8.

List included the typical 54 Canadian Threshold cards and a 3/3 split on Forked Bolts and Spell Pierce. Also, for the first time, got to play w/ Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta as my fetchlands, which I believe to be the most "correct" for the sake of misinformation. However, this was never relevant as I believe I'm recognized now as a Canadian Thresh player amongst this group, as well as the fact that I played much more aggressively this time than ever before.

My sideboard:

2 Grafdigger's Cage, 3 Pyroblast, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Dismember, 1 K. Grip, 1 Destructive Revelry, 1 Ancient Grudge, 3 Submerge, and 2 Rough//Tumble.

Faced Elves (2-1), a BG Titania brew (2-0), URB Delver w/ Tasigur and TNN (1-2), Infect (2-0), and ID'd with RG Lands.

In Top8, I faced Elves again (different player) (2-1), Shardless BUG/w (2-1), and, in the finals, the very same Elves player I faced in Round 1. This time, he 2-0'd me.

3-1-1 in Swiss, 2-1 in top8. Second place.

The meta is particularly fair, and I may well switch to 4 Forked Bolt to always have options. Against Elves I kept in all the Dazes on the play, and retained 2-3 on the Draw. I found Daze maintains its effectiveness against Elves if you're playing a heavy removal list in which it is hard for the Elves player to get moving w/out 3 or more creatures. Elves players also play very aggressively, typically tapping out every turn, particularly on games 2 and 3, when it is "correct" for us to side out Daze.

Speaking of. I found Grafdigger's Cage to be entirely useless all day, and it was brought to my attention that this is partially because Elves players are now siding out some number of Nat Orders in games 2 and 3 in anticipation of Cage.

The Spell Snare was also fairly useless, and I believe I'm going to cut the two Cage and 1 Snare for 2-3 Surgical Extraction (benefiting the Lands matchup) or Tormod's Crypt as well as 0-1 Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm (depending on GY hate numbers and Spell Pierce//Forked Bolt MB numbers).

My losses to UBR were both at the mercy of resolved TNN. Damn. I'm glad this card isn't more common. Granted, in one situation, I used a Pyroblast on a Delver, drew a Forked Bolt, and was at a loss when, on my opponent's following turn, he landed a TNN, so I've only myself to hold accountable for that.

Shardless seems really bad with the white sideboard, and I'm not convinced Meddling Mage is at all worth the compromised mana. My opponent is a very good player, but I watched him be unable to cast Jace due to lands being USea, Forest, Swamp, and Savannah. For a deck w/ so many UU and BB casting costs, white splash, however marginal, even with DRS, seems very risky. Anybody know the real reasoning behind this? The Mages have to be for Combo, right? And I presume the idea is Cascading into more typical hate, such as Flusterstorm, would be a miserable idea? Still, there's got to be something better and in color for them.

All in all, it was a very fun time. Nice Guy's has a very good player core, and it's always a pleasure to compete there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carefulmug

I got to play some competitive magic for the first time in a year!

Played at a Mr. Nice Guy's tournament (Monroeville, PA) this past weekend. 24 players, 5 rounds, cut to top 8.

List included the typical 54 Canadian Threshold cards and a 3/3 split on Forked Bolts and Spell Pierce. Also, for the first time, got to play w/ Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta as my fetchlands, which I believe to be the most "correct" for the sake of misinformation. However, this was never relevant as I believe I'm recognized now as a Canadian Thresh player amongst this group, as well as the fact that I played much more aggressively this time than ever before.

My sideboard:

2 Grafdigger's Cage, 3 Pyroblast, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Dismember, 1 K. Grip, 1 Destructive Revelry, 1 Ancient Grudge, 3 Submerge, and 2 Rough//Tumble.

Faced Elves (2-1), a BG Titania brew (2-0), URB Delver w/ Tasigur and TNN (1-2), Infect (2-0), and ID'd with RG Lands.

In Top8, I faced Elves again (different player) (2-1), Shardless BUG/w (2-1), and, in the finals, the very same Elves player I faced in Round 1. This time, he 2-0'd me.

3-1-1 in Swiss, 2-1 in top8. Second place.

The meta is particularly fair, and I may well switch to 4 Forked Bolt to always have options. Against Elves I kept in all the Dazes on the play, and retained 2-3 on the Draw. I found Daze maintains its effectiveness against Elves if you're playing a heavy removal list in which it is hard for the Elves player to get moving w/out 3 or more creatures. Elves players also play very aggressively, typically tapping out every turn, particularly on games 2 and 3, when it is "correct" for us to side out Daze.

Speaking of. I found Grafdigger's Cage to be entirely useless all day, and it was brought to my attention that this is partially because Elves players are now siding out some number of Nat Orders in games 2 and 3 in anticipation of Cage.

The Spell Snare was also fairly useless, and I believe I'm going to cut the two Cage and 1 Snare for 2-3 Surgical Extraction (benefiting the Lands matchup) or Tormod's Crypt as well as 0-1 Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm (depending on GY hate numbers and Spell Pierce//Forked Bolt MB numbers).

My losses to UBR were both at the mercy of resolved TNN. Damn. I'm glad this card isn't more common. Granted, in one situation, I used a Pyroblast on a Delver, drew a Forked Bolt, and was at a loss when, on my opponent's following turn, he landed a TNN, so I've only myself to hold accountable for that.

Shardless seems really bad with the white sideboard, and I'm not convinced Meddling Mage is at all worth the compromised mana. My opponent is a very good player, but I watched him be unable to cast Jace due to lands being USea, Forest, Swamp, and Savannah. For a deck w/ so many UU and BB casting costs, white splash, however marginal, even with DRS, seems very risky. Anybody know the real reasoning behind this? The Mages have to be for Combo, right? And I presume the idea is Cascading into more typical hate, such as Flusterstorm, would be a miserable idea? Still, there's got to be something better and in color for them.

All in all, it was a very fun time. Nice Guy's has a very good player core, and it's always a pleasure to compete there.

---

Congrats man that's definitely an interesting list. I've actually somewhat lost faith in spell pierce it's been a while since it has actually done anything for me, but maybe that's just bad luck or something. The board is also interesting if you're running a snare and dismember presumably to deal with goyfs/tasigur then why not move them to maindeck or did you just expect a lot of elves and other combo decks to justify the 7th burn spell and the 3rd pierce. Another thing why 3 artifact/enchantment hate spells? I usually run 2 at most with something like a grudge k-grip split or revelry over grudge.

Despite elves possibly cutting some NOs post board I think Cage is worthwhile. It blanks their 4 GSZ which they definitely get a lot of value for plus it's like DRS 5 - 8 if it's in the opener against us. I've also never had daze be that good especially on the draw, but that's probably just a testament to you running 1 more forked bolt which really helps in that match up.

I wouldn't get to down on the UBR play where you pyroblasted the delver. If you can shoot it on your turn after they play it then you probably should. It allows you to play around them having pierce and it makes our daze live because they would be tapped out to make sure it resolves.

The splash of white in shardless from what I understand is strictly for combo matches. Shardless is a very well rounded deck except it could be better against combo. They usually have something like a few hand disruption spells, a hymn or 2 and maybe 2 or 3 forces tops. Surprisingly force is kind of hard for them to play just due to their blue count I guess or something like that. Adding meddling mage out of the board has got to help a lot especially against combo where their mana won't be disrupted. It does make their fair matches worse so I think it doesn't do much since they're just swapping percentages between match ups.

I just went 3/1 at a local weekly only losing to infect round 1. I might write up a short tournament report in a while, but to be honest I luck sacked my way through the whole thing. Half of my keeps were sketchy at best and pulled most of them out due to top decking a threat when I needed, to round out the hand that was mainly just disruption to start out with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carefulmug

The Spell Snare was also fairly useless, and I believe I'm going to cut the two Cage and 1 Snare for 2-3 Surgical Extraction (benefiting the Lands matchup) or Tormod's Crypt as well as 0-1 Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm (depending on GY hate numbers and Spell Pierce//Forked Bolt MB numbers).

---

Congrats on your tourney finish.

Long time goose player here. I agree that graffdiggers is mostly useless in most matchups. Its really there for reanimator and dredge, and only has some side benefits against elves. I wouldnt remove it, as dredge can be a realllly difficult matchup without it. that said, I used to run 2 in my board and have gone down to 1. I replaced the one with a scavenging ooze, and its become a rockstar slot. Ooze is really good in those matchups where you just want another creature, and doubles as a life gain sideboard card against decks like burn, and now to a lesser extent, u/r delver. I urge you to give him a shot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Contract Killer

Congrats man that's definitely an interesting list. I've actually somewhat lost faith in spell pierce it's been a while since it has actually done anything for me, but maybe that's just bad luck or something. The board is also interesting if you're running a snare and dismember presumably to deal with goyfs/tasigur then why not move them to maindeck or did you just expect a lot of elves and other combo decks to justify the 7th burn spell and the 3rd pierce. Another thing why 3 artifact/enchantment hate spells? I usually run 2 at most with something like a grudge k-grip split or revelry over grudge.

Despite elves possibly cutting some NOs post board I think Cage is worthwhile. It blanks their 4 GSZ which they definitely get a lot of value for plus it's like DRS 5 - 8 if it's in the opener against us. I've also never had daze be that good especially on the draw, but that's probably just a testament to you running 1 more forked bolt which really helps in that match up.

I wouldn't get to down on the UBR play where you pyroblasted the delver. If you can shoot it on your turn after they play it then you probably should. It allows you to play around them having pierce and it makes our daze live because they would be tapped out to make sure it resolves.

The splash of white in shardless from what I understand is strictly for combo matches. Shardless is a very well rounded deck except it could be better against combo. They usually have something like a few hand disruption spells, a hymn or 2 and maybe 2 or 3 forces tops. Surprisingly force is kind of hard for them to play just due to their blue count I guess or something like that. Adding meddling mage out of the board has got to help a lot especially against combo where their mana won't be disrupted. It does make their fair matches worse so I think it doesn't do much since they're just swapping percentages between match ups.

I just went 3/1 at a local weekly only losing to infect round 1. I might write up a short tournament report in a while, but to be honest I luck sacked my way through the whole thing. Half of my keeps were sketchy at best and pulled most of them out due to top decking a threat when I needed, to round out the hand that was mainly just disruption to start out with.

---

I switched to 4 Forked Bolt/2 Spell Pierce (A FB variation on the 8Bolt list) when I saw the first SCG after the banning of Treasure Cruise had 11 Elves and 9 D&T decks in day 2 (by far the two highest numbers of decks). Along with what I'd found to be a slightly difficult matchup with BUG Delver and Shardless, (DRS, Delver, Confidant) I figured now was the time for an overload of removal, and I will likely switch back to this split.

The Dismember was additional removal, yes, and instant speed at that, and came in against Elves as much as BUG. It's just bolt #9 that can incidentally kill a big creature...But these big creatures are typically what we want to reserve our counterspells for, anyway. Nice Guy's traditionally has a lot of Show and Tell, Lands, and Miracles players, and Dismember//Snare main would have been relatively dead against them in the main. As it was, Snare was never useful, at least not as a singleton.

I might trim 1 of the artifact//enchantment hate cards. I wanted to test the trifecta out to see which pieces were really most useful. Alas, in the matchups I had, none of them really came in, but had I faced, say, the UB Tezzeret or Metalworker deck in the room, all three would have been ideal.

And the Cages were lackluster because, it seemed, if I didn't have it in my opener, it just never did anything. I really would have rather had an additional removal spell each time. Cage is crap when both players are on topdeck, or when they already have a Symbiote//Visionary or Ranger//Arbor combo setup. At this point, removal seems far more important. Edit: Surgical Extraction is definitely the GY hate of choice in my mind right now because of its versatility.

The UBR Delver matchup w/ the Pyroblast on Delver really was a bad choice. It was a reactionary play, when, most times, that Pyroblast is sided in for their TNNs and should thus be reserved for their TNNs, particularly if you're playing 7-8 Bolt and siding in a Dismember. I was in double digits on life total; I could have taken a few hits from the Delver while I looked for more removal. Delver dies to everything, whereas TNN does not.

Endnote: you say you lucksacked into threats? I don't think there's actually anything wrong with this. Oftentimes we're led to believe we always must have a hand with a threat in it...but if you have an appropriate (objectively speaking) spread of cantrips and disruption, I don't believe there is anything wrong with blanking your opponent's first couple turns while you ponder and brainstorm for a threat. It's ideal to put pressure on our opponent from turn one, forcing them to play into daze and stifle and waste, but many times--in my own experience--it's just as well to draw and play a planned Delver, a threshed Goose, or a large Goyf on turn 3 when they may have only dealt 1-4 dmg on their own at that point had we played them early.

My MB from here will likely be the 54 Can Thresh, 4 Forked Bolt, 2 Spell Pierce, along with a SB of something like:

3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
2 Rough//Tumble
2 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
1 Destructive Revelry

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carefulmug

My MB from here will likely be the 54 Can Thresh, 4 Forked Bolt, 2 Spell Pierce, along with a SB of something like:

3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
2 Rough//Tumble
2 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
1 Destructive Revelry

---

Simple and just straight up solutions, i like your configuration! though i always love versatility..
instead of 4 forked main, i would rather use 2 forked / 1 fice (can react instantly, up'ping my blue count still and can tap bigger beasts eot for more tempo)
im on a 3 pierce main, lots of unfair decks here in my meta, anytime i dont have use for them...it'll be fow pitched.

im also on the 3gyhate/ 3 artifact hate sb config.. we certainly hate dredge, reanimators, batterskulls, so im loading it up on those matchups. my choices varies and can be of help in other matchups...

3 artifact hate (1 grduge / 1 revelry / 1 needle (versatile card!)
3 gy hate (1 tormods (THANKS CONTRACTKILLER! it's been doin well in my playtests so far!) 1 graf / 1 surgical (versatile card!)
3 pyroblasts
2 submerges 1 dismember (versatile card!)
2 roughs
1 vcliq

as much as i would want SCOOZE in the sb, reanimators are really problematic matchup and it is just too slow vs them.
last saturday, during a playtest i was 5-0 vs SnT (without sideboards) and the 3 pierces main really felt good, i always have some wall whenever he tries comboing off, with numerous pierces too i can counter random brainstorms and ponders once in while to slow his process and have backup fows for Show any time it shows : )

Has anyone tried playing a snapcaster mage as tarmogoyf number 4?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alix444

Has anyone tried playing a snapcaster mage as tarmogoyf number 4?

---

I think people tried it a long time ago back when the most popular decks were rug delver, esper stoneblade and maverick. The issue is he's far to mana intensive for RUG. We have trouble consistently getting to 3 mana and even at 3 mana he can get blown out by daze. It's not outside of the realm of possibilities and you could try it as a singleton. I just wouldn't hold my breath hoping he'll do the impossible.

On another note this does go nicely with a brew I've been working on what do you guys think of this list:
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf

Instants/Sorceries
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder

Artifact
3 Aether Vial

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Vendilion Clique

One of my fellow RUG players was talking about a brew of RUG Delver with vial in it. It's definitely interesting to say the least. It has a lot of similar qualities as RUG, but with vial the mana constrictions are not nearly as evident. It also allows RUG to effectively play Snapcaster mage.

I've tried it out a bit and it has done some awesome things. I would say it's at the very least on par with traditional RUG Delver.

My first reaction is that vial really hurts our motto of "no one top decks action better than us." But I guess its pretty dreamy to hold up stifle mana or tap out looking for disruption and be able to progress our board state!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Contract Killer

I've tried it out a bit and it has done some awesome things. I would say it's at the very least on par with traditional RUG Delver.

---

It's always nice to see innovations, whether new brews or sideboard techs. How's it goin vs combo decks? i see the 0-pierce built here main, though you have lots of helpers on the side..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Contract Killer

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

---

How was testing with 17 Lands for you? Currently I'm trying to max up my Probe account. 4 Probes and 16 Lands (6 fetches, 6 lands, 4 wastes) felt very light on mana. Mostly 1 Land opening hands. Now I'm thinking about going back to 18 lands and shave other cards to make room for 3-4 Probes. What Card(s) would you (all) cut (54 core, 2 forked, 2 pierces)?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by haloquaero

How was testing with 17 Lands for you? Currently I'm trying to max up my Probe account. 4 Probes and 16 Lands (6 fetches, 6 lands, 4 wastes) felt very light on mana. Mostly 1 Land opening hands. Now I'm thinking about going back to 18 lands and shave other cards to make room for 3-4 Probes. What Card(s) would you (all) cut (54 core, 2 forked, 2 pierces)?

---

If someone forced me to play 4 probes main, I would probably cut a fetch and a forked bolt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alix444

My first reaction is that vial really hurts our motto of "no one top decks action better than us." But I guess its pretty dreamy to hold up stifle mana or tap out looking for disruption and be able to progress our board state!

---

People say RUG has good top decks, but that's kind of misleading. It will seem like we have good top decks, but only when we're ahead. If we haven't gotten a wasteland or stifle in then top decking a daze is usually bad. I will admit top decking an aether vial mid to late game does feel bad, but I honestly don't think it's worse than a stifle that may or may not do something.

Being able to hold up countermagic and progress our boardstate is really amazing enough so I think running a 4th vial over the 3rd snapcaster might be better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by poxy14

It's always nice to see innovations, whether new brews or sideboard techs. How's it goin vs combo decks? i see the 0-pierce built here main, though you have lots of helpers on the side..

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I haven't really had much testing with this list yet aside from a handful of games on cockatrice (which I don't really consider testing). I'm planning to proxy it up tomorrow and take it to one of my local tournaments to test it in-between rounds and stuff.

Oddly enough I'm not sure if pierce is really that good as of late. There seems to have been a decline of SnT variants which were the decks that it was the best against I think. Every time I've had pierce against storm they have perfect information off of probe, therapy or duress and can play around it easily. Those are the two main combo decks and neither pierce or snare excels better than the other in both match ups. Snare though does excel in utility against the rest of the meta so that's mainly why I chose it over pierce. It's definitely something to experiment with though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by haloquaero

How was testing with 17 Lands for you? Currently I'm trying to max up my Probe account. 4 Probes and 16 Lands (6 fetches, 6 lands, 4 wastes) felt very light on mana. Mostly 1 Land opening hands. Now I'm thinking about going back to 18 lands and shave other cards to make room for 3-4 Probes. What Card(s) would you (all) cut (54 core, 2 forked, 2 pierces)?

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17 lands isn't horrible most of the time especially if you have vial. I've tried shaving down to 17 lands and running 3 or more probes and there are definitely worse things you can do. I mean I think if you're going to run that many probes expect to play very tight if you want to win. There's a reason why some of the most successful builds of RUG run probe because the information can lead to total blow outs. My issue with it is I've had the information, but it didn't do anything from stopping the opponent playing Lili the next turn around daze. I think the added information helps in the early game, but becomes less useful to dead mid or late when you need silver bullets in snare, pierce and forked bolt to answer problems.

Ok now I've seen it all this is just bad lols
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9181&d=252551&f=LE

Because of 2-of FoW? Could be a metagame call.

Edit: Except that Omni-Tell and Storm both feature in the T8...:confused:

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

Ok now I've seen it all this is just bad lols
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9181&d=252551&f=LE

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by keys

Because of 2-of FoW? Could be a metagame call.
Edit: Except that Omni-Tell and Storm both feature in the T8...:confused:

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Hmm... or he only had 2 FoW to play with and had no one that could lend him any... But it could really to be a very aggressive metagame call as keys already mentioned... The list is some kind of versatile at first sight... what disturbs a bit is the FoW hole and the 10 Bolts MD (whenever I wanted to test Izzet Charm, a voice in my head suddenly said: "no, just forget about it, too clunky") Also 4 artifact hate (2x artifact mutation!) in the SB shut down every stoneforge and other artifact builds... I guess the 2x Divert were also metagame call for BGx variants... but in that case I'd only play 1 copy. All in all very light on combo hate...

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Originally Posted by Alix444

If someone forced me to play 4 probes main, I would probably cut a fetch and a forked bolt.

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

O17 lands isn't horrible most of the time especially if you have vial. I've tried shaving down to 17 lands and running 3 or more probes and there are definitely worse things you can do. I mean I think if you're going to run that many probes expect to play very tight if you want to win. There's a reason why some of the most successful builds of RUG run probe because the information can lead to total blow outs. My issue with it is I've had the information, but it didn't do anything from stopping the opponent playing Lili the next turn around daze. I think the added information helps in the early game, but becomes less useful to dead mid or late when you need silver bullets in snare, pierce and forked bolt to answer problems.

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Yeah, it was my intention to have as much information as possible in the early game steps (especially in case of holding up stife against potential 1 land handers), 2 probes were too less for this kind of playstyle. But now I'm captured again, because I know I would miss my snares too much :/ my meta is pretty fair (mostly D&T and Maverick / Dark Maverick, then MUD, 12Post, Merfolk, Miracles, Nic Fit, Elves, Reanimator). I also don't wanna miss any forked bolt i can get for stoneforge / mother / Shaman / Talia etc. etc. Gee... good bye again Probes ^^

Hi guys. First post here :D. I'm not new to legacy but to this deck. I usually play elves, but my local meta is shifting to a bad state for the little green warriors. The thing i want to ask you is:

I have all the cards for some delver brews (fows, stifle, daze, wastes,etc) but im lacking duals (only 2 tropical, 2 bayou and 1 taiga)

What could you recommend me to do?:
-Play RUG with 1 taiga and 1 UR shockland
-Play BUG with 2 bayous and maybe droping daze for hymn and thoughtseize? (or play less copies)
-Play UG delver and change bolts for something else like vapor snag or more counters?

Thanks for your time :)

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Originally Posted by Prontus

Hi guys. First post here :D. I'm not new to legacy but to this deck. I usually play elves, but my local meta is shifting to a bad state for the little green warriors. The thing i want to ask you is:

I have all the cards for some delver brews (fows, stifle, daze, wastes,etc) but im lacking duals (only 2 tropical, 2 bayou and 1 taiga)

What could you recommend me to do?:
-Play RUG with 1 taiga and 1 UR shockland
-Play BUG with 2 bayous and maybe droping daze for hymn and thoughtseize? (or play less copies)
-Play UG delver and change bolts for something else like vapor snag or more counters?

Thanks for your time :)

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Play BUG, rug dont have DRS.
need 6dual islands to daze.
Maybe 5 tropical/volcanic, 1 taiga/shockland ? ok...
2 tropicals only, 33% of colored lands? suicide...

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

Ok now I've seen it all this is just bad lols
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9181&d=252551&f=LE

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I don't know if the list is good or not but he does have 10 ways to deal with a DRS or Insectile Aberration by turn 2. He's also got Elves and D&T better handled than a typical RUG Delver list. I'm guessing it was a metagame call.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

I don't know if the list is good or not but he does have 10 ways to deal with a DRS or Insectile Aberration by turn 2. He's also got Elves and D&T better handled than a typical RUG Delver list. I'm guessing it was a metagame call.

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I guess but despite having ways to deal with DRS and Delver that still leaves too many openings for the opponent to jam cards we must answer if possible aka goyf or TNN. I'll give it to him that he's definitely made some of our worse match ups better, but at the cost of losing percentages across the board to combo and most other fair decks. It just seems so bad and I can't really make heads or tails of it. Even as a meta call that's a bit extreme.

[QUOTE=haloquaero;870254]Hmm... or he only had 2 FoW to play with and had no one that could lend him any... But it could really to be a very aggressive metagame call as keys already mentioned... The list is some kind of versatile at first sight... what disturbs a bit is the FoW hole and the 10 Bolts MD (whenever I wanted to test Izzet Charm, a voice in my head suddenly said: "no, just forget about it, too clunky") Also 4 artifact hate (2x artifact mutation!) in the SB shut down every stoneforge and other artifact builds... I guess the 2x Divert were also metagame call for BGx variants... but in that case I'd only play 1 copy. All in all very light on combo hate...QUOTE]

Not being able to find forces that I would accept as a possible answer seeing as it's the only sane one lols. Izzet charm really isn't that bad to test in the flex spots if you wanted to. It does a lot of what we want and offers a similar flexibility that Fire//Ice has.
Fire//Ice is added removal for whatever little threats they have or can tap down a fatty to maybe sneak by a win. Izzet charm offers the same threat removal, and has either spell pierce or a thought scour-esque cantrip (a card I've always hated in RUG). If you want to max out on overall hate for combo and midrange I would run it. You would just need snares or Fire//Ice (another card I've never liked in RUG) in the other flex spots for getting around goyfs or other fatties.

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

Fire//Ice is added removal for whatever little threats they have or can tap down a fatty to maybe sneak by a win. Izzet charm offers the same threat removal, and has either spell pierce or a thought scour-esque cantrip (a card I've always hated in RUG). If you want to max out on overall hate for combo and midrange I would run it. You would just need snares or Fire//Ice (another card I've never liked in RUG) in the other flex spots for getting around goyfs or other fatties.

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Here are the things that Fire//Ice does:

1. Kills a 2 toughness creature on turn 2.
2. Kills 2 1 toughness creatures on turn 2.
3. Taps down a land during the opponent's upkeep early on to keep the pressure on.
4. Taps Goyf, the germ token, Marit Lage, etc, when you need to push through for the last few points of damage.
5. Does 2 damage to the dome when that's what you need.

It's really a very flexible card and I don't really understand why it has gone out of favor the way it has. Forked Bolt is a turn faster and maybe that's just the best answer. I still tend to play 2 Fire//Ice in my UR lists and it's never a card I'm sorry to see at any point during the game.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Here are the things that Fire//Ice does:

1. Kills a 2 toughness creature on turn 2.
2. Kills 2 1 toughness creatures on turn 2.
3. Taps down a land during the opponent's upkeep early on to keep the pressure on.
4. Taps Goyf, the germ token, Marit Lage, etc, when you need to push through for the last few points of damage.
5. Does 2 damage to the dome when that's what you need.

It's really a very flexible card and I don't really understand why it has gone out of favor the way it has. Forked Bolt is a turn faster and maybe that's just the best answer. I still tend to play 2 Fire//Ice in my UR lists and it's never a card I'm sorry to see at any point during the game.

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6. pitches to FOW, and is never dead vs combo that carries xanthids..

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Originally Posted by poxy14

6. pitches to FOW, and is never dead vs combo that carries xanthids..

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Yeah, that too although it's a useful enough card that it's not an easy pitch unless the alternative is Brainstorm or the Delver you want to play on your turn.

I'm wondering if Fire//Ice and Forked Bolt don't both belong in the flex 6? Maybe 2 Spell Pierce , 2 Forked Bolt and 2 Fire//Ice? Elves and D&T both become more manageable with 4 mini-sweepers in the main list and it's two extra ways to get rid of DRS, SFM and Insectile Aberration. Fire//Ice also kills Metalworker, which can be very problematic if MUD has Chalice@1. Admittedly if MUD lands Chalice@1 it's like a 90% loss anyway.

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

I'm wondering if Fire//Ice and Forked Bolt don't both belong in the flex 6? Maybe 2 Spell Pierce , 2 Forked Bolt and 2 Fire//Ice? Elves and D&T both become more manageable with 4 mini-sweepers in the main list and it's two extra ways to get rid of DRS, SFM and Insectile Aberration. Fire//Ice also kills Metalworker, which can be very problematic if MUD has Chalice@1. Admittedly if MUD lands Chalice@1 it's like a 90% loss anyway.

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Oh, I really really often want to have those bolts 7 and 8 in my hands g1 when I'm playing against Elves, Dark Maverick and D&T in my lgs. Sometimes my problem is a resolved Thalia and therefore a Fire (like Rough in g2 and 3) would cost 3 mana, which sometimes is difficult to reach against them for me. So keeping the Snares in the 2 remaining flex spots seems like a better alternative for me, especially in case for RIP postboard. Fire is definately better against Elves as Snare, but sometimes I get to hit a Zenit on 1, Visionaries or Ooze in g2 and 3 with it.

I also often play against MUD and I'm still searching for the right way to play right and tight against it. But here again Snare in the 2 remaining flex spots seems more attractive for me because it can hit Chalice on 1, Monolith, Defense Grid and Ratched Bomb. Nevertheless Metal Worker HAS to die asap if it couldn't get countered and I definately see your point for Fire//Ice in all your scenarios (especially against DRS / Insectile Aberration).

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

Izzet charm really isn't that bad to test in the flex spots if you wanted to. It does a lot of what we want and offers a similar flexibility that Fire//Ice has. Izzet charm offers the same threat removal, and has either spell pierce or a thought scour-esque cantrip (a card I've always hated in RUG)

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The problem I have with Izzet Charm is that you can't aim the opponents face, you can't split the damage, and you pierce for the cost of :u::r:. Good old Counterspell seems like a better option for me in this way. It's also not worth using a pseudo thought scour effect for :u::r: imo. Like Fire//Ice it's also harder to cast if Thalia or a Lodestone Golem entered the battlefield - which in my case happens on-again-off-again.

Hey guys,

I'm currently trying to acquire the skill set to pilot RUG Delver properly. And I hate it if people that do not know the deck inside and out build decks I just threw together a pile that is supposed to be as generic as possible, without adapting any special cards from other players. So I tried to build a very generic list without too much spice. Let me know what you think.

And would anybody be so kind as to let me know what the most important points of discussions are, atm?

Btw, I also plan on streaming my learning process with RUG Delver as soon as next week.

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Dismember
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble


Greetings

I think thats a good standard Rug list, the only thing which I dont like are the 2 dismember , but that is a personal preference, I tried em and they didnt work for me. I use 2 Forked Bolt instead.

As far as discussions go, there are no big ones, I think. A few posts earlier there was someone asking for experience with a 1 of Snapcaster instead of the 4th goyf, but that's really all.

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Hey guys,

I'm currently trying to acquire the skill set to pilot RUG Delver properly. And I hate it if people that do not know the deck inside and out build decks I just threw together a pile that is supposed to be as generic as possible, without adapting any special cards from other players. So I tried to build a very generic list without too much spice. Let me know what you think.

And would anybody be so kind as to let me know what the most important points of discussions are, atm?

Btw, I also plan on streaming my learning process with RUG Delver as soon as next week.

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Dismember
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble


Greetings

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Hey! Well, I would suggest these changes:

-2 Dismember +2 Forked Bolt, as has been already said. Forked Bolt sometimes can 2x1, it's great against Deathrite and Stoneforge, and it won't cost you life.
-1 Spell Snare +1 Spell Pierce / -2 Spell Snare +1 Spell Pierce +1 Fire-Ice. I've tested 1 or 2 Spell Snare at maindeck, but they are a dead card most of the time in my experience. Most times you'll draw them when your opp has already landed his Tarmo, Stoneforge, etc. Still, playing 1 at maindeck can be ok IMO.

Your sideboard looks sweet.