[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

I'm planning on playing a list like these at the GP:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23077
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23091
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23082


...the first of which, I believe, is konsultant's and the other two from a forum user who's name is lost to me as of yet.

I'm new to Landstill, and my knowledge of Legacy is limited, so I had a few questions about the lists.

Is the Ichorid matchup a complete lost cause? It seems like the Relics are almost a token defense against them, but that the matchup is fairly unwinnable without dedicating a large portion of the SB to hate. Are the relics primarily for Thresh and Loam decks?

What's with Ajani Goldmane? Everyone seems to SB them, but I cannot figure out what matchups they're good it. Any advice?

For the GP, where (it seems to me) there will be a lot of Goblins and Elves due to card availability, is it correct to play 4 Engineered Plague instead of the seemingly standard 3?

How's the combo matchup? I assume SBing is +MM, +Halo - creature kill?

Would you mind sharing your current list, konsultant?

Are there any modern primers on sideboarding in general?

Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CephalidBreakfast

I'm planning on playing a list like these at the GP:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23077
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23091
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23082


...the first of which, I believe, is konsultant's and the other two from a forum user who's name is lost to me as of yet.

I'm new to Landstill, and my knowledge of Legacy is limited, so I had a few questions about the lists.

Is the Ichorid matchup a complete lost cause? It seems like the Relics are almost a token defense against them, but that the matchup is fairly unwinnable without dedicating a large portion of the SB to hate. Are the relics primarily for Thresh and Loam decks?

What's with Ajani Goldmane? Everyone seems to SB them, but I cannot figure out what matchups they're good it. Any advice?

For the GP, where (it seems to me) there will be a lot of Goblins and Elves due to card availability, is it correct to play 4 Engineered Plague instead of the seemingly standard 3?

How's the combo matchup? I assume SBing is +MM, +Halo - creature kill?

Would you mind sharing your current list, konsultant?

Are there any modern primers on sideboarding in general?

Thanks.

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I'd like to see a primer on sideboarding as well. Most of it seems common sense, but some things like what to board out against merfolk just seem iffy. I usually take 2 standstills and a decree but it seems like there's a zillion possibilities.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CephalidBreakfast

...the first of which, I believe, is konsultant's and the other two from a forum user who's name is lost to me as of yet.

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The other two lists are rockout's.

OMG I got someone to reference my list! Hoo...RaH! I am Michael Misiaszek. Kevin spelt my name wrong, but o well.

I just realized that everything, besides theoretical situations that I talk about with Rehallek and Mossivo1986, are in the last 20 or so pages of this thread. Konsultant makes a solid point about Elspeth around page 30-40 and both of us talk briefly about why we play vindicate instead of humility. There is also a lot of talk about sb strategies in the mirror, goblins, aggro loam, survival and so on. Relic over Crypt, why we play ajani, why no gy hate, why gy hate, and pretty much anything you can want. Good luck with the reading.

I have been playing straight UW landstill, have to say though, I am not very good at it.

So I have a quiestion for 3 colour-players using vindicate (which is a cool list btw), do you miss humility at all? When playing UW, I often found humility much more useful than WoG, due to the elspeth and decree advantage.

I know I was one of the ones wondering just how strong Elspeth was, not because I didn't believe the hype, but rather because I just hadn't gotten around to playtesting it yet. I must say, very strong card. Much stronger than the Eternal Dragons that were in my list.

Here is my new and updated list:

U/W/g Kaezurstill

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Tundra
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [R] Savannah
4 [OD] Island (4)
2 [5E] Plains (3)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [R] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [5E] Wrath of God
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

I'm still gonna preach the rediculousness that is Counterbalance, maindeck, and will do so till my face turns blue and then some. Beyond that, this deck is a powerhouse. If I were going to play in the GP (which I doubt I'll be able to), this would be the deck I'd be bringing. It has practically no bad matchups, with there being a few exceptions. Those few exceptions are mostly improved with either maindeck Counterbalance, or the sideboard hate.

So nothing to counter for cc3, not even Vindicate?

I thought exactly the same thing...

@Hanni: I like your list a lot and I think I'll test it out. Cutting black will be tough for me, but I was probably using Vindicate as a crutch anyway to bail out bad play decisions. Is the Savannah necessary now that you're not running E. Dragon? I think I would rather have a 2nd Tropical Island, especially with 4 Counterbalance and 4 Counterspell, you'll want UU early on a consistent basis, and will usually have time before finding WW becomes relevant.

Also, how are the Goblins/Merfolk matchups without Engineered Plague out of the side? Explosives and CB are strong against Merfolk, but it seems like you'll be leaning heavily on Wrath in the Goblins matchup.

Quote:

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So nothing to counter for cc3, not even Vindicate?

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Unfortunately, nope. There's really no where to fit in a 3cc, aside from I guess dropping the EE's for Grips or Vindicates, which I suppose is something that could and should be tested. Otherwise, you simply have to accept that Counterbalance isn't going to answer everything for you. Counterbalance isn't there to be the be all end all, locking the opponent completely out of the game on its lonesome. What it does is allow you to gain a gradual card advantage over the opponent, answer some key spells, and overall just give you a huge edge. If you try to use it as a crutch, the deck will fail. If you use it as a support tool, it pushes the deck over the top.

In most matchups where I'd want to answer 3cc spells, it usually comes out for sideboard cards (like Blue Elemental Blast). For example, Dragon Stompy and Goblins. However, there are matchups that use 3cc spells that you'd rather have Counterbalance still in it; Aggro Loam being one such deck. Now, I can definitely see advantages for wanting 3cc spells there, but the deck cannot fit enough 3cc spells into the deck to effectively hit the 3 spot. Again, 2 Vindicates in the 2 EE spots is worth testing.

I also know the arguments for Pernicious Deed over Wrath of God specifically for being a 3cc spell. My reasoning behind WoG over Deed is for the fact of synergy and simplicity. WoG is typically more mana effecient, has less foils to it, and doesn't blow up your own Counterbalance. It makes the manabase more stable, it dodges opposing Counterbalances better (moot point), so on and so forth. Having 4cc spells for Counterbalance is still relevant because there are still 4cc bombs worth stopping.

I'll take into consideration splashing black instead of green and running 2 MD Vindicates over EE's, and running EE's in the board. Besides those few possible changes, that maindeck has been nothing short of spectacular for me in every single game I play it in.

Quote:

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@Hanni: I like your list a lot and I think I'll test it out. Cutting black will be tough for me, but I was probably using Vindicate as a crutch anyway to bail out bad play decisions. Is the Savannah necessary now that you're not running E. Dragon? I think I would rather have a 2nd Tropical Island, especially with 4 Counterbalance and 4 Counterspell, you'll want UU early on a consistent basis, and will usually have time before finding WW becomes relevant.

Also, how are the Goblins/Merfolk matchups without Engineered Plague out of the side? Explosives and CB are strong against Merfolk, but it seems like you'll be leaning heavily on Wrath in the Goblins matchup.

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Well, if you're a big black splash advocate, just drop green for black. The only purpose for the green splash is Krosan Grip, which could instead become Vindicate. The Savannah is still nice given the fact that the deck runs a 4/2 split of Islands/Plains and you have just as many WW spells that you want to cast as UU. However, I'm not deadset on that and the Savannah could just as easily become another Tropical Island. Further playtesting would be more appropriate for that sort of decision.

Goblins does not need Engineered Plague. Between StP, BEB, Wrath, and even EE, the deck has boatloads of removal. Not saying that the matchup is fantastic, but the stable manabase alongside the plethora of removal should allow the deck to keep guys off the table, keep the life total high enough, draw enough cards, and get a solid defense going via Factory/Decree/Elspeth. I have not yet done sufficient testing against Merfolk with Landstill, so I'm not going to touch on that matchup much yet. However, I don't see why Counterbalance would be a bad card in that matchup given the amount of 1cc and 2cc spells (and 4cc too, right?) that they run.

Good advice Konsultant. Merfolk, Survival Elves, Goblins, Faeries, Slivers... These are all threats. Taking out the FoW is the right thing to do.

Klaus. I played your deck at my local event last week and we must be playing in different Metas. The spot removal clogged up my hand while I got overwhelmed by more control oriented cards like Counterbalance. I lost to elves pretty bad (I won first game through drawing tons of spot removal and getting land drops, but a resolved vial or Survival was GG). I had recurring mana curve issues throughout the night. And inconsistent draws resulting in mulligans. Ended up going 1-3, which is the worst I've done in a long time. My rating cried.

With the increasing amount of random Natural Order decks (or Natural Order splashes) I'm inclined to move back to running 3 WoG, 3 EE, 4 Swords.

I also prefer Landstill that is predominantly 2 colors, not 3 or 4. Mana curve issues ruin opening hands and open you up to mana denial. I like to be able to fetch basics and still cast what I'm holding. This is impossible when you run double white cards, with double blue cards, and vindicate.

Every time I test vindicate I don't find it as amazing as everyone says it is. It is slow, and does not always answer counterbalance. Each time I targeted a CB with it, it got countered (trinket mage, threads, shackles). But the same guy countered my EE that I spent 4 mana casting! (sower)

Hanni - consider plagues. It isn't so much about goblins, but it does make goblins even easier. Don't underestimate Faeries, Elves, Merfolk, or slivers!

Most of those decks have things that really make it hard for landstill. I've been running plagues recently and it is my favorite card right now, lol.

I run one underground sea and one Trop in the main + 2 mox diamond (most people criticize the mox right before a game they lose because of it)

SB is subject to change but is currently:

3 plague
2 Grip
3 relic
3 meddling mage
3 counterbalance
1 top

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CephalidBreakfast

I'm planning on playing a list like these at the GP:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23077
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23091
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23082


...the first of which, I believe, is konsultant's and the other two from a forum user who's name is lost to me as of yet.

I'm new to Landstill, and my knowledge of Legacy is limited, so I had a few questions about the lists.

Is the Ichorid matchup a complete lost cause? It seems like the Relics are almost a token defense against them, but that the matchup is fairly unwinnable without dedicating a large portion of the SB to hate. Are the relics primarily for Thresh and Loam decks?

What's with Ajani Goldmane? Everyone seems to SB them, but I cannot figure out what matchups they're good it. Any advice?

For the GP, where (it seems to me) there will be a lot of Goblins and Elves due to card availability, is it correct to play 4 Engineered Plague instead of the seemingly standard 3?

How's the combo matchup? I assume SBing is +MM, +Halo - creature kill?

Would you mind sharing your current list, konsultant?

Are there any modern primers on sideboarding in general?

Thanks.

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I would urge playing 4x Plague's, I always stick with 4 and don't plan on ever changing it.

For side boarding and some thoughts on Ajani I would say read back a bunch of page's and you should find the information you are looking for.

Ichorid doesn't have to be an autoloss but would require a retooling of the entire SB for a match that you aren't really ever going to win game one. I'm not saying it isn't worth trying it and I have been testing different things out but you would need to make the post SB games close to 90% in your favor to be able to expect to win the round against it. Getting your chance's of winning up that high would require atleast 6-8 very relevent cards against the deck. While you can do it, it means you are taking away from other match's whitch probably isn't worth it. That said I have just recently made a breakthrough with my own SB that I will be playing at the GP whitch does have a realistic chance of beating Ichorid.

My list as of right now is the same for the MD as is the most recent post for it in this thread. The entire SB has been changed but due to the value of the surprise factor I won't be revealing it on the eve of the GP.

Good luck to all attending, my PM's are getting flooded with questions and various lists and I apologize to anybody I haven't been able to respond to yet but I will get to them in the very near future.

I've found myself recently wishing that the Krosan Grips in my board were Vindicates. In alot of matchups, the opponent has only 1 or 2 problematic artifacts/enchantments but alot of problematic creatures, and I can never find anything I want to drop for Krosan Grip and often don't side them in. Vindicate fixes that problem by lending far more versatility to my gameplan. Split second can sometimes be invaluable, but versatility can also be invaluable.

However, I'm still not sure if I want EE's maindeck and Vindicates sideboard, or vice versa. For now I'm still doing the EE's in the maindeck, but I still need to thoroughly test that. Overall, I'm very satisfied with the rest of the deck and I don't see myself making any changes to it anytime soon. I'm very pleased with Counterbalance Landstill and truly believe it is the best deck in the format.

I'm also considering Oblivion Ring.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I've found myself recently wishing that the Krosan Grips in my board were Vindicates. In alot of matchups, the opponent has only 1 or 2 problematic artifacts/enchantments but alot of problematic creatures, and I can never find anything I want to drop for Krosan Grip and often don't side them in. Vindicate fixes that problem by lending far more versatility to my gameplan. Split second can sometimes be invaluable, but versatility can also be invaluable.

However, I'm still not sure if I want EE's maindeck and Vindicates sideboard, or vice versa. For now I'm still doing the EE's in the maindeck, but I still need to thoroughly test that. Overall, I'm very satisfied with the rest of the deck and I don't see myself making any changes to it anytime soon. I'm very pleased with Counterbalance Landstill and truly believe it is the best deck in the format.
I'm also considering Oblivion Ring.

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Vindicate & Obliovion Ring are the 2 cards among those roughly 20.000 non-land cards out there that have have the biggest MD sign on their foreheads.
It's that simple: either maindeck them or leave em be. They are general answers to a broad spectrum of problems. Sideboard cards are supposed to be answers to specific problems that the MD can't deal with efficiently.
Krosan Grip being one of the prime examples here.

EE used to be a a popular SB card back in the day when Belcher.dec was played a lot. Today EE, just like Vindicate and O. Ring has become one of those "non-SB cards", too.

If you are going to play counterbalance in landstill wouldn't you be better of to go dreadstill? counterbalance seems to fit the cheap style of that deck better then it does in landstill i think, because the curve is lower. That makes it easier to set up cards for CB and gives you daze to protect CB.

Hanni, I know you're a good deckbuilder and I respect you as a player, but that's the worst goddamn counterbalance curve in existence. I know its a tempting, powerful tool but your deck simply cannot support it. Play something else in that slot. Spell snare is very good.

I like to play a more standard list with CB in the side and a few tops in the main... the configuration works out great for me.


As far as plague goes, I think that it would be a strong include for the current metagame (although maybe not entirely needed, it can help).

Playing mox diamond in landstill seem like a pretty bad idea

eats 2 slots.

sure, power a first turn standstill. Is it really that good? Is it worth the 2 slots?

Id rather have some more removal/counter with those 2 slots

About 3 colors :
with 1 eternal dragon and 1 crucible of worlds, you can fix up things. But i do agree that it can be a problem, but we only run 3 vindicate, so color should not be a problem. And vindicate versatility make nicely for the 3 color

Robert

my SB is
4 meddling mage (combo mainly)
3 relic of progenitus (ichorid usually. Threshold is not a problem with the MD)
3 perish (elves)
2 ajani goldmane
3 blue elemental blast

Here is my siding strategy against mirror match

-4 standstill (you can or not SB them out. If you dont, dont bring in the MM)
-2 wrath of god (not useful)
-2 humility (can be useful if they play goyfs and tombstalker)

+2 ajani goldmane (planeswalkers rock the mirror)
+4 meddling mage (meh)
+2 relic of progenitus (prevent them from abusing Crucible of worlds)

against burn : Its really hard, but the only way of winning is to get a quick ajani goldmane in play. Then, the game is stalled and you win that way.
-2 wrath of god
-4 swords to plowshare
-2 engineered explosives
+3 blue elemental blast
+2 ajani goldmane
+3 meddling mage

Against threshold :
-2 wrath of gold, +2 perish.

Against Dreadstill :
Not too sure. You can side out standstill, in which case you can bring in ajani goldmane and 2 meddling mage. (I dont like using standstill in the mirror)

Against merfolk :
-2 standstill
+2 ajani goldmane

against goblin :
-4 standstill
-1 spellsnare
+3 blue elemental blast
+2 ajani goldmane


Not sure if my sB strats work. But i did have some success locally.
Some people might disagree with the standstill going out. Ajani shines in the mirror, against aggro and against most deck using CB. It gives you some tempo (life gain) and can eventually turn into a big monster

Board Strategy

UWB Landstill -

Meddling Mage
Orims Chant
Ajani
E Plague
Relic

Ajani, E Plague is probably the Strongest Choice. Chant is Strong coupled with the Combo Field that is out there so if we do 4 Plague, 2 Ajani, 3 Chants that leaves 6 slots. Is Mage really that important or is Relic really that important because several other cards could be splashed around to make a few other match ups stronger.

Is Martial Coup a viable choice in this deck?

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Originally Posted by Ch@os

nope

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#

So I'm thinking my sideboard is going to go as follows.

SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 2 [FNM] Engineered Plague

It turns out that I really enjoy the 2-2 split of relic/ vendillion rather then having it go 3-3 which is alittle harder on the manabase. I also dumped 1 maindeck relic and put the 3rd ee. From the side I dumped the 2nd runed halo. Basicly the theory behind it all was that the decks that runed halo is good against Im already doing fine in. Double white can also be somewhat of a problem to just call on at will sometimes. These are all notes and changes from dif's list.

Chant seems inferior to mage against combo(duress proof), mage is also useful in a ton of other matchups where swords is dead.
I prefer the Uwb version atm. Vindicate main has just been great for me in testing as it can get rid of any problematic permanent allowing you to drop standstill easier. It also serves the role of krosan grip but more versatile then it, the ability to hit planeswalkers is fantastic, something a combination of grip and Stp can never do. Furthermore engineered plague seems to be fantastic now as merfolk is such a popular deck, and its very good against goblins and elves too, which are certainly popular due to them being the cheapest reasonable decks. And then there is even some sliver and faerie, most aggro strategies just seem to be tribal at the moment.
The only thing i don't get is why ajani is so popular as a board card. It seems soso in the mirror and against burn. Against burn isn't something like CoP:red much better? For the mirror i dont see the big use of ajani. The token pump ability seems hardly usefull as you don't have many creatures, life gain seems fairly irrelevant as the mirror is won on board advantage in my testing and building up to the ultimate takes fairly long. Jace seems to be the better planeswalker to me for the mirror.
I wonder if extra direct card advantage cards aren't better though for the mirror as the mirror seems to be won on that. Perhaps something like night's whisper or confidant is better to put in the sb for the mirror.

WRT Anjani: I didn't get it either at first. It just sort of wins games real subtly. Even if an opponent deals with the first avatar token the fact that damage race math is skewed in your favor is often enough to take the game. Also, planeswalkers are ridiculously hard to deal with since once resolved the only commonly played answers are: EE , Oblivion Ring, and Vindicate. Of the three cards mentioned 2 require white, 1 requires black, and 1 requires access to 4 colors. So if you aren't at least playing white or 4 color/EE you either counter it or suck it. Well, that's not completely true you can attack it but that requires you to have creatures and Anjani is being attacked you go up life.... again keeping you alive turns longer.

Well i think ANY good list should either play either vindicate or o-ring in its 75 as the sheer versatility of them is just great. Krosan grip is a narrow card against many CB decks but o-ring/vindicate is incredibly versatile. Still the power of ajani in the mirror seems good though it is less good against goyfstill and dreadstill etc. I wonder if you're not just better off to run some extra elspeth's, or ajani vengeant and red because goldmane's abilities seem to have so little synergy with the deck. There are hardly no creatures except factories and soldier tokens to pump, life gain is not really relevant mostly and the ultimate is 'ok' but easily countered by EE or anything else.
It seems to me there must be alot more sideboard directed to mirror or close mirror matches as they are a big part of the field. The best general sideboard generally is the sideboard that at least replaces dead cards in every matchup. In the mirror we got about 4 to 7 crap cards depending on your exact list and opponent's list but at least the standstill's and wrath of god's/humilities need replacing. Given we usually play the same or near same cards as the opponent meddling mage is fairly crap in the (near) mirror as the cards we differ in are usually only a 2 or 3-of or near irrelevant by the time mage hits the table(daze). Relic of progenitus is also fairly weak in the mirror as it messes with your crucible as much as theirs usually, the tap ability is too slow to keep up with crucible usually.
Therefore a board like mossivo's or Omega's seems horrible to me as it lacks any real power for the dreadstill and landstill matchup which is a fair percentage of the metagame.
Cards that may be good for the mirror is stuff like vendilion clique. Flying over soldier tokens/factories owns and flash with a decent ability is awesome. Other consideration may be o-ring/vindicate. The reason i'm mentioning these cards is that they are highly usefull in other matchups as well so we still have some extra power against the other matchups.
The sideboard really must be made with the amount of dead cards in every matchup in mind so replacing will give the biggest improvement rounded out over every matchup. Legacy has so many decks anyway that making it too specific will not be effective anyway.

Alright I've Top8ed in a 34 player tournament around here again. I went 4-1-1becoming 6th due to an awful oppscore.

The list was the same like last time except for -2 Halo and +2 Plagues in the SB.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23119

1st Round: Boros/Sligh 1:2
2nd Round: Dredge 2:1
3rd Round: Dreadstill (Ugr) 1:1
The first game took about 30 minutes. In the second one he lowered my lifecounter quite fast with some Factories and a Trinket Mage.
I manage to stabilize a bit, leaving him only 2 Factories, while I had one myself. I was on about 3 at that time and he was attacking with one factory so I had to block when he Fires my Mishra which got him the draw a few minutes before the extra turns. Unlucky me.
4th Round: Clerics 2:0
5th Round: Deathcloud-Loam 2:1
6th Round: Ch@os with ITF 2:1

Thoughts on the list:
- I've been playing the constellation for quite a bit and I think the Wrath of God is becoming less and less important
- Sensei's Divining Top and Elspeth are the best cards in the deck
- Kor Haven is stronger than it looks like
- I would love to see a Circle of Protection: Red in the sideboard because I hate to loose against Sligh

Comments?

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Originally Posted by FredMaster

Comments?

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I like it.


But whats about the 4th Factory instead of Kor Haven?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FredMaster

Alright I've Top8ed in a 34 player tournament around here again. I went 4-1-1becoming 6th due to an awful oppscore.

The list was the same like last time except for -2 Halo and +2 Plagues in the SB.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23119

1st Round: Boros/Sligh 1:2
2nd Round: Dredge 2:1
3rd Round: Dreadstill (Ugr) 1:1
The first game took about 30 minutes. In the second one he lowered my lifecounter quite fast with some Factories and a Trinket Mage.
I manage to stabilize a bit, leaving him only 2 Factories, while I had one myself. I was on about 3 at that time and he was attacking with one factory so I had to block when he Fires my Mishra which got him the draw a few minutes before the extra turns. Unlucky me.
4th Round: Clerics 2:0
5th Round: Deathcloud-Loam 2:1
6th Round: Ch@os with ITF 2:1

Thoughts on the list:
- I've been playing the constellation for quite a bit and I think the Wrath of God is becoming less and less important
- Sensei's Divining Top and Elspeth are the best cards in the deck
- Kor Haven is stronger than it looks like
- I would love to see a Circle of Protection: Red in the sideboard because I hate to loose against Sligh

Comments?

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I like your list. If I were going to pilot it at the GP tommorow heres what I would do:

-1 Crucible
-1 Standstill

+2 Fact or Fiction


I also might strongly consider tormod's crypt in place of the second humility for reasons of tolaria westing for it and setting it off. It stays good with academy ruins and it opens 1 low up for your sb for a 3rd EP.

3 meddling
3 Hydro
4 EP
3 relic
2 ajani

This seems strong for a gp enviornment.

4 tundra
4 flooded strand
1 underground sea
1 scrubland
3 island
3 plains
3 mishra
1 tolaria west
1 dustbowl
1 academy ruins

4 force
4 brainstorm
4 swords 29
3 spell snare
2 cunning wish
1 fact or fiction

2 wrath
2 decree
2 ponder

2 Vendillion clique
2 elspeth

3 standstill
3 ee
2 relic
1 sensei's devining top
1 humility

sb:
1 Pulse
1 extirpate
1 enlightened tutor
1 return to dust
1 path to exile
1 hydro
1 Beb
3 MM
2 EP
2 Ajani
1 relic of progen.

I am seriously considering removing return to dust in favor of 3rd ep and wondered what my peeps think. Obviously pithing needle naming ee means I cannot blow up enchants/ or artis but in alot of the games I have played that play really doesnt happen and honestly im not sure an opponent fearing ee wouldn't name relic anyways. The difference between dropping return to dust for EP could be legit, but I'm simply curious as to what others actually think.

Mossivo, in the mirror and against dreadstill you want to side out 3 standstill 2 wrath and the humility = 6 cards. Seeing your board you only got 2 ajani's to bring is which means that you will still have 4 near dead cards in the mirror. Isn't it just much better to drop the wishboard and go for some extra cards. Cunning wish is awfully slow and the wish targets are not stellar at all...
Extirpate, decent card but rarely useful. Rarely steals more then 1 card out of someones hand and what did runs only 1 win con that goes to the grave early??
Path to exile, paying 4 mana with the wish to RFG a creature is slow.
Enlightened tutor, card disadvantage and slow, what targets do you really need to get so badly with this??
Pulse = ok but i rather have something faster, wishing for this takes 6 mana to get your first 4 life and needs WW.
Return to dust, also not really stellar not too often u want to hit 2 artifacts/enchantments.
Beb and hydro, ok but again not really stellar.
As you see most of these cards give you a 1 for 1 which is not good enough to run wish, if you want versatile 1 for 1 play vindicate. It does almost the same thing and costs a whole lot less. If you want a nice tutor package to help you deal with gravedecks and a whole bunch of other stuff play trinket mage.

A list like Fredmasters' is a lot more solid. I would just drop the academy ruins/dust bowl/kor haven and just run wastelands. Wastelands help more with standstill and the deck has enough manasinks so we dont need ruis/bowl/kor haven. Also why is everyone running 4x meddling mage, i HIGHLY suggest replacing 2 of them with vendilion clique. Clique owns in the mirror (kills elspeth, removes critical stuff) and is possibly even better against combo. THe biggest problem with mage for me is that its not that good in mirror matches where like i said a ton of times you NEED cards for. Dreadstill/landstill is very popular and having something to give you an edge there is great, especially because you avoid getting needless draws as well.

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QUOTE=Marke;324446]Mossivo, in the mirror and against dreadstill you want to side out 3 standstill 2 wrath and the humility = 6 cards. Seeing your board you only got 2 ajani's to bring is which means that you will still have 4 near dead cards in the mirror.

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If I go with my original sideboard for this example heres how I would sideboard.

-3 Standstill
-2 Wrath
-1 Humility

+3 Meddling Mage
+2 Ajani
+1 Relic




Isn't it just much better to drop the wishboard and go for some extra cards. Cunning wish is awfully slow and the wish targets are not stellar at all...

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Extirpate, decent card but rarely useful. Rarely steals more then 1 card out of someones hand and what did runs only 1 win con that goes to the grave early??

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The point of pate isn't neccesarily to steal cards out of my opponents hand in this case. Pates purpose is to stop recuring cards like loam/ genesis/ or randomly remove hard to get targets like mongoose. Its worth the mana, its been tested, and its the original reason wish still was formed.

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Path to exile, paying 4 mana with the wish to RFG a creature is slow.

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Agreed and had I not been splitting it 1-1-1 with hydro- BEB it wouldn't take up a slot, but because it basicly serves a dual purpose swapping out a single hydroblast to give your wish an additional target it becomes fundamentally a better slot. The matchups you side in hydro generally you will side in path as well so reasonably speaking its an ok transition regardless of that it may be a 4 mana swords

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Enlightened tutor, card disadvantage and slow, what targets do you really need to get so badly with this??

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humility-standstill-top- are the main 3, outside of that once in a while ee or relic in some matchups.

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Pulse = ok but i rather have something faster, wishing for this takes 6 mana to get your first 4 life and needs WW.

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In a mainly u/w control deck ww rarely is an issue. as for 6 mana, yes it does have some effect on the game, but generally it ends the game the first time you cast it succesfully against the decks it is meant to wish against.

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Return to dust, also not really stellar not too often u want to hit 2 artifacts/enchantments.

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That was what I was truly asking about. But ive decided not to take this slot out and i will be staying at 2 EP.

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Beb and hydro, ok but again not really stellar.

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See any form of loam, see creight belcher, see dragon stompy, see red deck wins, see goblins, see ant running red splash, see dreadstill running red splash for reb, see goyf slight, and there are many more matchups that I simply do not have the time to name off.

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As you see most of these cards give you a 1 for 1 which is not good enough to run wish, if you want versatile 1 for 1 play vindicate.

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Wish gives you answers to matchups that vindicate simply does not have. Its not difficult to see that I'd rather have the answers then the efficiency. I'd rather win every game one I played and then drag out game 2, or at the very least have more of a toolbox answer build then a generally null card. Wish implies that I run 2 answers of anything I choose. Remember that. I can tell you in my 2-3 years of experiance with landstill i'd never trade wish and the four slots in my sb for anything else unless the metagame called for it.

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It does almost the same thing and costs a whole lot less.

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Depending on the matchup, and if you notice my maindeck has a substantially better game against problem matchups like ichorid, ant. I also never loose game ones to survival which vindicate still can and does.

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If you want a nice tutor package to help you deal with gravedecks and a whole bunch of other stuff play trinket mage.

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An additional target to get stifled that you can only cast at sorcery speed isn't what landstill wants to do. Also my answers are more precise then what trinket has to offer me.

I'm deffinately not trying to sound rude but if you haven't played wish still, which it seems to me that you haven't as your questioning basicly all the sb slots designed around the card and saying that im better off running trinket mage, which is the exact opposite of what any landstill player actually wants to do.

vendilion clique

What am I missing on the whole Vendilion Clique popularity. A 3/1 creature that replaces a card in hand with Flash, is this a combo disrupter? At 3 mana is would seem Counterspell would just be better, or the plethra of other spells that Landstill normally would run. Turn 3 at best seems like if your playing combo it is too slow, if your playing against creatures Wrath is better or swords or Vindicate or Spell Snare or EE or anything. If there is a glaring reason this card is being played please tell me so I can understand.

A 3/1 Flash(Like Haste) that can replace a card in your hand whom has evasion to smack a Plainswalker right after it is cast seems like it should just be Vindicate.

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Originally Posted by Raider Bob

vendilion clique

What am I missing on the whole Vendilion Clique popularity. A 3/1 creature that replaces a card in hand with Flash, is this a combo disrupter? At 3 mana is would seem Counterspell would just be better, or the plethra of other spells that Landstill normally would run. Turn 3 at best seems like if your playing combo it is too slow, if your playing against creatures Wrath is better or swords or Vindicate or Spell Snare or EE or anything. If there is a glaring reason this card is being played please tell me so I can understand.

A 3/1 Flash(Like Haste) that can replace a card in your hand whom has evasion to smack a Plainswalker right after it is cast seems like it should just be Vindicate.

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Its no good, don't run it. See you at the gp :)

I definitaley agree with Raider.
Having a cc3 spell that answers permanents overall is quite better than a cc3 creaturespell, being fragile and just replacing one handcard.

Vindicate wins here.

Having access to a wishboard is just too slow i'm sure. Sure there are matchups where catching a extirpate g1 will be nice but with only 2 wish and the number of sideboard spots it kind of wastes its just not worth it. It basically weakens the matchup against all tier 1 decks as the wishcards are not THAT useful there, given the added mana cost of wish. There are not many cards played that we totally roll over too and landstill always has counters to deal with them as well. I didnt mean to say trinket mage is a good choice in this deck but if you really feel you need some tutor targets to help against some of the tier 2 decks it's just more efficient.

Raider bob the reason i suggest vendilion clique is that it's good to have a card that is useful in the mirror and against combo. Meddling mage is fine against combo but just isn't so great in mirror matches because you tend to play the same cards. The cards your lists differ in tend to be a) only a 2 or 3-of b) played before mage comes online (daze) c) hard to guess thus hard to name and d) can be shuffled away with brainstorm. These reasons together just mean that meddling mage is a grizzly bear 90% of the time in close mirrors that is even hard to cast.
I'm not saying that vendilion clique is totally awesome in the mirror but it's an efficiently costed beater, easier resolved then other creatures, flies which rules in the mirror and is fairly cheap which is neccesary as we are removing cheap cards as well to keep the curve in tact.
I'm all open for a better card in the mirror that is also usefull against other matchups and is in color. Of all the mirror tech along with ajani i've found clique to be the best for me so far. All i'm saying that it might be good to consider running a 2-2 split of mage and clique in the board instead of 3-4 mages... So far I haven't heard a single argument why this wouldn't be better. Otherwise i would gladly here how you SB against dreadstill and landstill and how you use those meddling mage's...
Main i 100% agree by the way that vindicate is better, fact remains that you need useful cards for your standstills, and wog's/humilities to bring in even if you play vindicate main (which i think is great if the metagame is friendly enough for 3 colors)

Thoughts on the Landstill Mirror.

A few weeks ago My teammate and Myself went to a tournament and played the identical deck with 2 different cards in the sideboard(I ran 2 Parish and he ran 2 Chainers edict) for anyone who cares but we ended up playing in the top 8.

The Games went Like this

I drew 3 extra cards off my standstill cause I drew Decree of Justice and an Extra Mishra game 1, so I won.

Game 2 He drew 3 Extra cards and created a stronger mana base off a recurring Dragon and won game 2.

Game 3 I ended up beating him because I took a risk that I could keep him off of white mana long enough to beat him(I would have Punted the game if I could not keep him off WW and if you have run Kunsultants list you know this shouldn't happen often) I dropped Ajani and Gained a lot of life and beat him down.

So in the Mirror in a game where you are on a par skill level it should be about what you draw and what choices are made. Running the vendilion clique over the 4th Decree or an Elspeth or even the 4th Mishra Factory seems like a sub par card choice if your looking for a card to sure up the mirror problem.

The argument that the mirror is won on skill doesnt have a thing to do with what cards you run for the mirror though.. Because skill and what you draw matters alot in a matchup its okay to just keep playing dead cards in your list?
Standstill is a near dead card in the mirror, symmetrical cards can be great if your deck is better able to abuse the effect then your opponent. Given that that ability is (nearly) the same in the mirror there is absolutely no reason to run it in the mirror, thus you will have 4 to 6 dead cards in the mirror....
Standstill is a win more card in the mirror thus it's better to play a card that actually helps you give an advantage... Once again i NEVER said running vendilion clique over elspeth, decree, factory or whatever. If you for some reason have these in your board replace the standstills with them offcourse. Extra decree's or elspeths are too narrow for the board though as they are only usefull in the mirror whereas vendilion clique is usefull against a lot of stuff. Extra decree's and elspeths also fit the curve less well then vendilion clique's would therefore clique's can be usefull for the mirror.
Not running clique's because there is simply no room in the board and thus we accept to play dead cards in the mirror is a good argument I could agree with. Saying running clique is bad because the mirror is about what choices are made is non-argument though that defies every logic behind every sideboard ever made...

Conclusion: With landstill (and dreadstill) being a fair percentage of the metagame I think it IS useful to run extra cards that are usefull in the mirror, as decree and elspeth are too narrow some other card would be good. As SB space is limited and we have dead cards against combo etc as well it would be logical to chose a broad card for this role. That can be o-ring, vindicate, vendilion etc where I like vendilion the most..

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Originally Posted by Marke

The argument that the mirror is won on skill doesnt have a thing to do with what cards you run for the mirror though.. Because skill and what you draw matters alot in a matchup its okay to just keep playing dead cards in your list?

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Mirror is won off skill... and cards, of course, but Standstill for sure, is not a dead card. Standstill, if anything, is key in that match up. The cards that are dead are Wrath of God and Humility. But if you want to know what I mean, play the Solidarity mirror.

Standstill, forces the game to be played differently. If they keep breaking Standstills, then you win off card quality advantage and mana base stabilization. If they play under Standstill, then utilize cards like Wasteland, Mishra's Factory and Decree of Justice to force your opponent to break Standstill.

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Standstill is a near dead card in the mirror, symmetrical cards can be great if your deck is better able to abuse the effect then your opponent.

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Run Decree of Justice.

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Given that that ability is (nearly) the same in the mirror there is absolutely no reason to run it in the mirror, thus you will have 4 to 6 dead cards in the mirror....

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It's the control mirror, you discard EOT frequently anyway. You even discard cards like Cunning Wish during discard step frequently, it's nothing special.

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Standstill is a win more card in the mirror thus it's better to play a card that actually helps you give an advantage...

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Play some games in the mirror where you actually side out Standstills and they keep them in. They'll be drawing cards to no end and function under Standstill.

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Extra decree's or elspeths are too narrow for the board though as they are only usefull in the mirror whereas vendilion clique is usefull against a lot of stuff.

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DoJs are quite useful against Aggro Loam.

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Extra decree's and elspeths also fit the curve less well then vendilion clique's would therefore clique's can be usefull for the mirror.

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Since when has control decks ever had a mana curve?

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Conclusion: With landstill (and dreadstill) being a fair percentage of the metagame I think it IS useful to run extra cards that are usefull in the mirror, as decree and elspeth are too narrow some other card would be good.

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Decree of Justice and Elspeth are narrow, how?

If you can still function off Standstill, then you should be leaving Standstills in your deck. I don't understand the fuss about DoJ being narrow in the mirror when it's actually the card that actually wins you mirror matches and makes you function under Standstill better.


Although, I won't be bashing Vendellion Clique; it at least takes out Life from the Loam against Aggro Loam. Although, I'm still skeptic because it's a creature. So if anything, you should be running 3 Cliques over the 2 Chainer's Edicts and 1 Meddling Mage in the SB, assuming you would hypothetically find them useful.

Thoughts on the Landstill Mirror:

My experience is that the mirror is a fight for lands and a stable manabase.
CoW wins here the game and additional wastelands or opportunities to find dust bowl are very important.

And standstill IS important too. First, 3 extra cards should win u the game in the most cases and when u know that u have superiority under a standstill with your build u should leave (at least some) standstill in.

One card is also strong for the mirror: Extirpate.
An extirpate on FoW or Counterspell gives u a huge advantage in all control mirrors.