[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by JonBarber

There was only 4 goblins decks in the whole tourny. Expect a lot more zoo, Death and Taxes, and thresh decks.

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Only 4 Goblins in a field of 193? You must be joking (right?). I'm expecting there to be a lot more Goblin decks in the meta after 2 made the top 4 at this event. Them's Survival numbers! I also expect High Tide/Time Spiral/Emrakul to see some play, as it's relatively cheap to build and got a lot of coverage this tourny.

I definitely feel a sense of validation seeing Goblins do so well in the first large post-Survival event. I feel like I've been backing the right horse, that the characteristics that drew me to the deck in the first place are valid and viable. The only downside to this event: Where do we go from here? How do we plot against a metagame where we're the top-dog?

That brings up a point I'd like to make about Legacy in general. There was a Pro in the SCG booth between rounds (Mike Jacob) and he was doing some commentary that basicly consisted of bashing the Legacy format and talking about how terrible every deck was. He lamented how it was impossible to play a deck without Force of Will that didn't suck, that losing T2 isn't good for the format, and that most of the cards people play are bad cards. He was generally obnoxious, but his comments revealed his thinking about Magic formats and how they should be played. To him, the most important part of Magic is the metagame, and breaking the metagame to put up a big Pro win is the ultimate goal. His reasoning for Legacy being a bad format then is that it's a format where the meta cannot be broken.

I know, I know. A lot of you are thinking "What about Survival?" but SurvivalVines was an Archetype that showed up in Columbus and slowly grew in strength and popularity. Over the next 5 months it took over and dominated the format and was then banned. Survival was an excellent deck, but it didn't become that way by expliting holes in the metagame. It was just the best deck, period.

Here's the big 'contrast and compare' part of the show. Mike Jacob was basically saying that Legacy is a bad format because you can't break the metagame. You can't show up to a tournament with a new piece of tech or build that will give you a noticable edge against Deck X, but won't lose any leverage against Deck Y. To Mike, this is the essence of Magic: building and tuning a deck to take on the metagame. In Legacy, on the other hand, it's all about building a deck that can control the game as quickly as possible, usually just by winning it. The metagame is almost moot in Legacy. You're generally trying to put as much power on the table as quickly as possible. You're not asking youself if you can beat X, Y, and Z. The question is, can you beat Anything?


So that's my take Legacy v Standard/Extended.

No he isn't kidding. I was there and had plenty of time to wander around 4 goblin players were all I saw. Ignore Mike Jacob he's a pretty angry guy in general and was just venting. Probably just had bad luck in the rounds and trying to vent some steam must be a bad format not him. Breaking the Legacy metagame good luck with that. Such a huge amount of deck selection and card pool there's always going to be something that trumps you or that you trump. Rock, Paper, Scissors, its part of the reason I like the format.

What is a better way to hate out artifacts: Goblin Tinkerer or Tuk-Tuk Scrapper. I like the fact that tinkerer can kill factories but without haste it will likely get plowed or wrathed before doing anything. Scrapper is a little more expensive but has an immediate effect. Suggestions are welcomed.

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Originally Posted by luckymartyr

What is a better way to hate out artifacts: Goblin Tinkerer or Tuk-Tuk Scrapper. I like the fact that tinkerer can kill factories but without haste it will likely get plowed or wrathed before doing anything. Scrapper is a little more expensive but has an immediate effect. Suggestions are welcomed.

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play both.. our sideboard needs more goblins

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Originally Posted by LostButSeeking

Do you guys have the list? I was bumming around SCG , but I can't find it.

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The deck lists are here.

A bit surprised that the green splash did better than the Rb build, but I suppose it all depends on the player.

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Originally Posted by raindrainxi

The deck lists are here.

A bit surprised that the green splash did better than the Rb build, but I suppose it all depends on the player.

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I don't think you can really judge that unless you have play data on their splash cards... Did the Krosan Grip, Cabal Therapy and Perish hit essential targets? To be honest I don't think the splashes play that different in game 1... surely not the RG version, because it's essentially mono red.

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Originally Posted by raindrainxi

The deck lists are here.

A bit surprised that the green splash did better than the Rb build, but I suppose it all depends on the player.

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Here's the report of their Semifinal match Rg v Rb...
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...an_Booher.html

Chris' (Rg) Goblin Chieftains made a big impact, as Julian (Rb) ran none. The Chieftains helped Chris win G1 and 3. Chris was also running Sharpshooter, which Julian wasn't. Both of those cards are great in the mirror and against other aggro decks. Chris' deck was just beefier, and he won the dice roll. Both players won the games where they played first, so it's not that big of an issue of one deck being stronger than the other. I do think Chris' build was inherently stronger for the mirror, but winning the dice roll was a huge factor in his success. Also, Chris' Chieftains gave him such superior board position that he didn't even bother holding back the Sharpshooter G3! (probably a mistake though) ...

Anywho, what their match illustrated was that both splashes are still good for the deck, but Chieftains will make you much happier in the mirror.

Or, in shorter, simpler terms, winning the die roll wins the mirror.

This has pretty much been true ever since Goblins stopped packing Mogg Fanatic, or any 1-drop answer to Goblin Lackey. Goblins itself is actually one of the weakest decks in the format against Lackey.

I don't care what few goblins you change out (Within Reason, obviously. Digging Teams and Balloon Brigades don't count.) If you win the die roll, you're favored to win. Even if you're the black splash with Warren Weirding, you're still a little favored.

Hi, I just started playing the deck and wanted to know what would be better in the board against combo? I've been told to run Chalice of the Void over Cabal Therapy and Mindbreak Trap.

Since I have no real experience, I was wondering what would be a better call against TES or ANT?

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Originally Posted by RMC13135

Hi, I just started playing the deck and wanted to know what would be better in the board against combo? I've been told to run Chalice of the Void over Cabal Therapy and Mindbreak Trap.

Since I have no real experience, I was wondering what would be a better call against TES or ANT?

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Hard to say. We already slapped each others faces over this topic and as far I can remember we came to the conclusion that Thorn of Amethyst, Mind Break Trap and CHalice of the Void all are good anti-combo-cards.

I personally prefer Chalice of the Void because you can set it @0 to avoid being duressed. This is actually the problem with Mindbreak Trap. Plus, setting Chalice @0 doesnt disrupt your gameplan. WIth Thorn of Amethyst you can neither play Goblins nor use manadenial on turn 2.

It's a question of what card you like best - so I'd just test al of them.

There's way more to it then that. You need to diversify your hate. The answer to Thorn is going off fast, the answer to Mindbreak Trap is searching for a Duress or using silence before you go off. As such, the approaches to both cards for a combo player are very different. If you win game 2 with mindbreak trap you can be sure they will chant you before going off, rendering Mindbreak Trap ineffective. As such, diversify your hate.

2 Chalice, 2 Thorn 4 Traps if you got 8 spots left =X Otherwise I'd go Chalice and Traps or Thorn and Traps.

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Originally Posted by Nessaja

There's way more to it then that. You need to diversify your hate. The answer to Thorn is going off fast, the answer to Mindbreak Trap is searching for a Duress or using silence before you go off. As such, the approaches to both cards for a combo player are very different. If you win game 2 with mindbreak trap you can be sure they will chant you before going off, rendering Mindbreak Trap ineffective. As such, diversify your hate.

2 Chalice, 2 Thorn 4 Traps if you got 8 spots left =X Otherwise I'd go Chalice and Traps or Thorn and Traps.

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Originally Posted by RMC13135

Hi, I just started playing the deck[...]
[...]Since I have no real experience, I was wondering what would be a better call against TES or ANT?

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I guess s.o. without any experience with this deck or even with this particular MU should first try how those cards work out.

I don't agree with what you said about combo's strategy against hate, but that's a different topic.
Of course you are right that "diversifying your hate" should be taken into consideration when you face a lot of combo, but for starters I'd advice to try out those cards first.

It's not a good idea to split your hate (or to even waste 8 SB-slots) when you don't know the MU. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

This has pretty much been true ever since Goblins stopped packing Mogg Fanatic, or any 1-drop answer to Goblin Lackey. Goblins itself is actually one of the weakest decks in the format against Lackey.

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QFT...

The best answer Goblins has on a first-turn-lackey is a lackey to block it with...

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Originally Posted by RMC13135

Hi, I just started playing the deck and wanted to know what would be better in the board against combo? I've been told to run Chalice of the Void over Cabal Therapy and Mindbreak Trap.

Since I have no real experience, I was wondering what would be a better call against TES or ANT?

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Coming from a former Combo player: Play Chalice. It's the most disruptive Hate available to you.

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Originally Posted by BWM

QFT...

The best answer Goblins has on a first-turn-lackey is a lackey to block it with...

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No, it's Lightning Bolt because your opponent runs means to get rid of your Lackey and will connect.

Hi!
In the last month i restart playing magic after 4 years of stop and i decided to begin play Legacy for a lot of reason, expecially because i'm a goblin-lover :D
So i keep on hand again my old Extended Goblin deck (it was with the Patriarch's Bidding xD) and i try to Re-build the decklist adeguating it for legacy, for my purpose i visited and read a lot of forum,site and articles about Legacy and Vial Goblin and i tested my deck on mws ( :( in my zone legacy it's not too popular...)

The result actually is this:

// Lands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Mountain
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [B] Badlands
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [A] Taiga

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [B] Goblin King
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

Or -4 Therapy -1 Tin Street + 2 Earwig Squad + 3 REB

I want to know your opinion about my decklist and my choice...
My biggest doubt are:
MWM Yes or not? if yes what can i remove from MD for it? and how many copy? 3?
It's the 1x tool a good choyce? if not why?
The mana-base it's ok? or i should improve ti with the 4° Rishadan port? 22 land are enough?
Warren Weirding 2 o 3 copy?
In the MD there are some card that i would like to play but i have no space: 1 Tin Street Hooligan,1 Skirk Prospector( some interesting trick and make me remove quickly the Bridge From Below) 1 Earwing Squad

And finally i'm not sure of what to play on SB but i think SB must be builded in base of Metagame...so i't just a teorically discussion...

Thank you guys and sorry for my english xD

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Originally Posted by Lorenzo767

Hi!
In the last month i restart playing magic after 4 years of stop and i decided to begin play Legacy for a lot of reason, expecially because i'm a goblin-lover :D
So i keep on hand again my old Extended Goblin deck (it was with the Patriarch's Bidding xD) and i try to Re-build the decklist adeguating it for legacy, for my purpose i visited and read a lot of forum,site and articles about Legacy and Vial Goblin and i tested my deck on mws ( :( in my zone legacy it's not too popular...)

The result actually is this:

// Lands
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Mountain
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [B] Badlands
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [A] Taiga

// Creatures
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [MOR] Warren Weirding

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [B] Goblin King
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [GP] Tin Street Hooligan

Or -4 Therapy -1 Tin Street + 2 Earwig Squad + 3 REB

I want to know your opinion about my decklist and my choice...
My biggest doubt are:
MWM Yes or not? if yes what can i remove from MD for it? and how many copy? 3?
It's the 1x tool a good choyce? if not why?
The mana-base it's ok? or i should improve ti with the 4° Rishadan port? 22 land are enough?
Warren Weirding 2 o 3 copy?
In the MD there are some card that i would like to play but i have no space: 1 Tin Street Hooligan,1 Skirk Prospector( some interesting trick and make me remove quickly the Bridge From Below) 1 Earwing Squad

And finally i'm not sure of what to play on SB but i think SB must be builded in base of Metagame...so i't just a teorically discussion...

Thank you guys and sorry for my english xD

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You manabase and MD are almost perfect IMO.
If you run Cabal Therapy in SB MWM is just killer! I would run 3-4 copies in MD you can cut Kiki-Jiki (hard to get RRR with 7 colorless lands), Wort and 1 or 2 Chieftain maybe.
YOu sideboard is good but I don't like the Goblin King. You could run the 4th Tormod's Crypt or 2nd STingscourger (against Show and Tell). If you want to stick to a Lord in SB I'd rather play Chieftain than Goblin King, because haste is simply better than Mountainwalk.

Can someone explain to me on the preference on Mogg War Marshal over say Warren Instigator. Is it strictly the pure "value" of two targets instead of one or what else may it be?

3 bodies to chump with or on a blitz attack with Warchief & Piledriver +4 (from two goblins) as opposed to +2 (from only one additional attacker).
War Marshal is just a better draw later in the game when you need more bodies to block or pump Piledriver.

I think we need to discuss Cabal Therapy. With 3-4 Mogg War Marshall in the main, 3-4 Cabal Therapies in the board seem really sick in a lot of matchups. It helps against TES, enchantress, stax, other controlly/comboey decks, etc. After the first few turns, you can probably name 56 of the cards in your opponents deck. Siding them in gives us 3-4 more one-drops. Leading with a Therapy then playing MWM and flashing Therapy back on turn two is ridiculous. It also gives us a way to fight Engineered Plague without being forced to splash green.

Has anyone used Therapy successfully (or unsuccessfully) yet? If so, what decks did you bring it in against? There is a slight chance I'm going to SCG Indy and if I do, I will either play g/r with Rancors (if i'm feeling adventurous :smile:) or b/r with Therapies in the board

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Originally Posted by SpencerForHire

Can someone explain to me on the preference on Mogg War Marshal over say Warren Instigator. Is it strictly the pure "value" of two targets instead of one or what else may it be?

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The other posters have covered some of MWM's good points, but I want to cover one other thing. Against a LOT of decks, Goblins isn't an aggro deck. I know it LOOKS an awful lot like an aggro deck, right, because of all the creatures, but in reality, while your opponents are running tarmogoyf, you're running Fact or Fiction and Demonic Tutor. Mogg War Marshal is an AWFUL lot like Moment's Peace. When I'm playing against Zoo, the difference in my life total and board position when I get a MWM and when I don't is rediculous.

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Originally Posted by TossUsToLions

I think we need to discuss Cabal Therapy. With 3-4 Mogg War Marshall in the main, 3-4 Cabal Therapies in the board seem really sick in a lot of matchups. It helps against TES, enchantress, stax, other controlly/comboey decks, etc. After the first few turns, you can probably name 56 of the cards in your opponents deck. Siding them in gives us 3-4 more one-drops. Leading with a Therapy then playing MWM and flashing Therapy back on turn two is ridiculous. It also gives us a way to fight Engineered Plague without being forced to splash green.

Has anyone used Therapy successfully (or unsuccessfully) yet? If so, what decks did you bring it in against? There is a slight chance I'm going to SCG Indy and if I do, I will either play g/r with Rancors (if i'm feeling adventurous :smile:) or b/r with Therapies in the board

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Cabal Therapy is extremely solid against storm combo, at least as good as Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst against storm. It certainly turns storm into a winnable matchup, if not a great one. I've also boarded them in against enchantress, and while our matchup against them isn't QUITE as bad as Dredge's matchup against enchantress, it's pretty terrible, and the therapies don't do much to alleviate that. If you're worried about the enchantress matchup, board anarchies, splash green, splash white or play a different deck. I've played stax, but never with my goblin deck. I imagine CT would be better than some of your other cards (like Gempalm), but like I said, I've never tried it.

See my post on the last page about my opinions about the advantages the black splash poses over other colors. I really feel it shores up two of the most common of our bad matchups: zoo and storm combo, while continuing to play to the deck's strengths, while green helps a lot in other matchups (like enchantress). Honestly, if I had the Taigas (which I don't) I might to try run a light green splash for nature's claim or grip, but then I'd have to cut down on graveyard hate, which only invites disaster.

In any case, best of luck. Let me know how the rancors run. Always looking for the new hot tech.