Awesome, tell him Travis Cowley said hi. He helped me with my game alot in my early years back at C&M cards in Morgan Hill California.... That dude is a beast and I miss the shit out of him!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
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Awesome, tell him Travis Cowley said hi. He helped me with my game alot in my early years back at C&M cards in Morgan Hill California.... That dude is a beast and I miss the shit out of him!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I'm guessing because Abrupt Decay has pushed people towards more copies of the hate card itself, though I rarely experience finding the 2nd copy when I need it, compared to the much better chance of finding the first one with the ET board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Congrats on the event, too.
There are a lot of obvious weaknesses with Enlightened Tutor - it's pure card disadvantage in a deck that has to fight very hard for card advantage. It means you're casting a sequence of (usually) non-creature spells in a Thalia/Port deck. If they have an answer (counterspell or removal) for what you tutored for, it's an enormous tempo blowout. If you're trying to use it to spike your anti-Eldrazi card, it's also another 1 drop that gets eaten by Chalice. Despite all that, it's a powerful card selection effect in a deck with absolutely zero card selection outside of SfM. I think if you build your SB around it, you *really* need to build your SB around it since tutors get more and more powerful with each additional target you throw in. e.g. I think Steve's sample SB a few posts up doesn't have enough targets. (P.S. Disk is a terrible card since it's slow and you're the one with treasured non-creature permanents...you should try Ensnaring Bridge or Moat if you want a tutorable game-over card vs Eldrazi.)
Tutor is very good in metas where card advantage isn't as important and you just need answers ASAP (combo, aggro) it's kinda meh in attrition-y / fairer metas. I think Mono-W is best off with either a Tutor package or a SB that contains tons of copies of only a handful of cards (RIP, Canonist, and a few other things).
e.g. here's Koke_MTG's sb from a few pages ago that I think is a good version of that - everything is either a multiple or fetchable by Sfm:
2 x Council's Judgment
2 x Cataclysm
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Mirran Crusader
3 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Sword of War and Peace
3 x Rest in Peace
So those are the only ways to lower your variance when it comes to hitting the right cards - play pure tutors (I obviously prefer another one...) or just double down on doing a certain thing. The worst SBs are the ones that look like they have E Tutor packages but they don't actually have E Tutors. At that point you're just hoping god smiles down upon your draws.
That's a very similar sideboard to one the folks on MTGSalvation have had success with:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Fiend Hunter (flex)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of War and Peace
The differences are Containment Priest and Fiend Hunter instead of Cataclysm and Crusader, but their builds run 3 Crusaders maindeck. Other options for the flex creature slots are Brimaz, Mangara, and Wilt-Leaf Liege.
There are other folks that play a bunch of somewhat-overlapping 1-ofs and 2-ofs. It seems that more advanced players tend to play fewer full playsets: Vials and Thalias are always in full 4s for example, but often people will splash in singles or pairs of cards like Spirit of the Labyrinth, Sea Gate Wreckage, and Mangara main, and cards like Grafdigger's Cage, Seal of Cleansing, and CoP: Red side. I never know if it's more cute than effective, but I've been leaning towards playing more copies and fewer card names.
Let's think about the most common targets for Enlightened Tutor:
Rest in Peace
Ethersworn Canonist
Pithing Needle
Chalice of the Void
Seal of Cleansing
Grafdigger's Cage
Absolute Law (could also be CoP:Red)
Ratchet Bomb
Ensnaring Bridge
Relic of Progenitus
Oblivion Ring
Spirit of the Labyrinth
The first two are in EVERY DnT deck, regardless of colors. You need them when you need them, but they often need to go in ASAP, though sometimes you don't want RiP until turn 3 or 4.
Needle is in many decks, usually as a 1-of, sometimes as a 2-of. When it is best depends on what you have to name.
Chalice is mostly in decks trying to beat combo and Infect, but it is a rare tool. It is also best on turn 1 (xx=0 or turn 2 xx=1).
Cage comes in ASAP, but has frequently been replaced by an extra RiP and Containment Priest, removing a target for ET.
Absolute Law/CoP:Red, RoP, Bridge, and R-Bomb are meta calls.
O-Ring has essentially been replaced with Council's Judgment, removing another ET target from the deck.
SotL is rarely played and even more rarely played and even more rarely in the side.
Negative Evaluations:
- There are only two regular targets for ET: Canonist and RiP.
- Two targets for ET are essentially permanently gone: Cage and O-Ring.
- SotL is rarely in the side and rarely worth targeting.
- Four targets are, at best, situational meta calls: AL, CoP:R, RoP, Bridge and R-Bomb.
- All the targets are soft to Abrupt Decay, except Seal, so going with 3 instead of 1 or 2 can help you find the card more than once.
- ET is card disadvantage, strictly speaking and you have to build your side to really use it. (see iatee's comments above)
- ET gives your opponent some knowledge, technically.
Positive Evaluations:
- The only guaranteed ET targets are Canonist and RiP, which many people run up to 6 of. Now, that by itself might make ET worth it, since 2/2/2 really means you have an effective 4-of for RiP and Canonist until you fetch one.
- ET means you can afford to run meta-dependent cards as 1-ofs with more certainty of finding them, so it is better in decks that want to run 1-of enchantments/artifacts.
- The items searched for with ET tend to come in in clumps, like Canonist + Cage + Needle vs. Elves or Canonist + RiP vs. Storm or RiP + Cage + Chalice vs. Reanimator. That means with 2 ET, 1 Cage, 1 Needle, and 2 Canonist against Elves, you really have 3/3/4 respectively as far as drawing your first hand and a greater chance to find effectively two of them in your opening hand.
- Using ET for Revoker is overlooked value.
- ET can get Jitte when you can't find SfM or didn't draw it against Elves, and you already have Canonist and something else (there are literally never too many good cards to get ASAP against Elves.)
- ET is never called by Cabal Therapy blind.
Honestly, if you run a sideboard with 3/3 RiP/Canonist and 1+ Pithing Needle, I think ET is worth it. If you really want to go back to Cage, it is especially worthwhile.
If you are running light on targets though (generally speaking, less than 6), I agree with iatee that it is just not a good idea.
Yeah one thing I've noticed multiple people do in DnT mirrors is forget bring in their E tutors since they are too busy thinking about 'the package'. E tutor is as good in the mirror as it is against Elves or Infect, since just like Elves and Infect, you're just racing to Jitte and card advantage doesn't matter. G2 you've (hopefully) and they've (likely) also dropped Thalias/Wingmares so it's easier to hardcast tutor, hardcast Jitte.Quote:
Originally Posted by redtwister
Another good tutor target if you want to troll the burn player in your meta - Aegis of Honor. It's more fun than COP: Red because you get to experience them reading the card text.
Taking RiP as an example, wouldn't a 2 Tutor + 2 RiP package be better than 3 RiPs? You're more likely to draw any 2 out of the 4-card package during the course of a given game than 2 out of 3 real RiPs.Quote:
Originally Posted by redtwister
Sequencing this is more often 2 turns of mana often through a thalia effect vs. 1 turn of casting hate + 1 turn of porting/casting creatures. That's the argument I have always used for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
I don't like Enlightened Tutor for the reasons given by iatee. I don't like to lose the tempo of the game searching for something that I am not going to play at least until my next turn, being something that cannot be definitive because can be countered/destroyed and that can make me lose about two turns. It can also avoid me to tap with Rishadan Port or something like that, departing me from the main gameplan.
It is also more difficult when you want to board with this kind of configuration full of singletons and it sucks when you draw them out of time. It could be good in a very open event in which you don't know what you're going to face, but in those situations particularly I still preferring a compact list with which you have very clear your sideboard strategies and what you want to draw on each moment even without solutions for specific matchups that are harder to face.
So I think as other compact decks like Delver, it's better to assume that you won't have solutions for some unfair situations that can be given in the Legacy format, and it's even harder to find solutions for everyting when you're piloting a deck without manipulation, so my advice is to focus the sideboard for the decks you want to win as main targets, for example in a metagame full of small creatures decks (D&T, Elves, Infect, Delver...) I'd run Gut Shot/Dismember/Warping Wail/2nd copy of Umezawa's Jitte or things like that, in a metagame full of BGx decks the full set of Mirran Crusader and even 1/2 WLL, in metagames full of combo I/d run a couple of Containment Priest in addition to Canonists and maybe 1/2 copies of Mindbreak Trap if needed... Of course I probably wouldn't remove Council's Judgment from the sideboard because it's great vs a lot of established/tier decks as Pithing Needle is, and this is what I value for this kind of decks that are really close and don't have manipulation, the versatility, thing that CoP, Absolute Law, Meekstone, Grafdigger's Cage don't have.
If you see my board I focus it trying to win especially Shardless BUG, BUG Delver, UWR Miracles/Stoneblade and Lands, knowing that I need less slots and less specific cards for other T1 matchups that I consider already good like Grixis Delver or Eldrazi (Sadly, I don't face those T1 decks too much over Madrid these days, otherwise I'd change a bit the board if needed).
Guys, don't worry about counterspells or even any kind of defense in the form of Abrupt Decay or whatever. Tutor targets are super high impact. Most of the cards in your deck are rather low impact in the matchups where you are bringing in the tutors. Having one fewer of those cards is not important compared with the advantage of having greater access to your tutor board. I am figuring that you can all handle the simple math for virtual copies here. With the exception of RIP, all of the tutorable targets are specifically for fast combo decks, anyway. Combo decks are not going to have counterspells. You tutor on turn 1 to land your hate card on turn 2. The game rarely gets beyond that so the card disadvantage is a total nonfactor. The part about Thalia hurting you is also not going to happen - for the same reason. The game does not last that long if you are dead.
My sb is not perfect, but it works with E-Tutors - a wide variety of singleton answers for specific opponents.
I'm not sure anyone disagrees with that, but it does highlight what I was saying before - that the Tutor package is better vs combo metas but less good in fair metas. Right now combo is in the worst place it's been for a long time due to Eldrazi - if you look here it's down to 23% of the meta and has been on a downward trend: http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE
So I think were you to go to a major tournament (or are playing on MTGO) it's probably not the right time to be building a sb based around beating fast combo. However, most people play most of their games in smaller metas that might be infested with the scourge of fast combo. Or you might just want to reliably hit that one of targeted sb card for that guy you dislike.
I am currently in combo hell, so the e.tutor package has been very good for me in that regard.
There's been some really good discussion though on this page, really nice to see :)
iatee, This brings up a really good set of questions.
1. What are the decks we are most likely to face at larger tournaments?
2. How does our deck fare against them? Poor (Elves), Fair (Storm), Even (Miracles), Good (RUG Delver), Great (?)
According to MTGTop8, the top decks in the last two weeks (Eldrazi has caused quite a bit of shifting, so 2 months isn't reliable yet, IMO):
22% Miracles (Even, extremely player skill/experience dependent)
08% Eldrazi (Good)
07% BUG (they are a mess at distinguishing BUG Delver from Shardless from Control) (Good)
07% Storm (Fair)
06% Show and Tell (Good)
05% Elves (Poor)
05% Burn (Good?)
05% DnT (Even, extremely player skill/experience dependent)
03% Grixis Delver (Even)
03% 4c Delver (Good)
02% Stoneblade (Fair), UR Delver (Good), Lands (Even), Loam (Even), Painter (even), Reanimator (Good), Dragon Stompy (No Idea), Maverick (Good), Zoo (no Idea)
That's still 22% combo and most of the random combo decks are, IMO, fair to poor for us, so I tend to board for those matches.
Control is 35%, but that is over 50% Miracles. As always, IMO, that should include us, which would make it 40%.
If we take Delver out of aggro and put it in Tempo/Aggro Control, it is still around 10% of the meta.
Aggro, at 19%, is the real winner with Eldrazi and burn, but growth in Dragon Stompy, Maverick, and Zoo.
All those decks make up 89% of the meta.
Of everything out there, I am most worried about the combo decks in that list, as far as where I want to stack my sideboard choices, versus decks I am already strong against in the main.
What are other people's thoughts?
I think 2 weeks is too small a sample set, those numbers seemed a bit off, especially with Lands and Infect not on the list. Here's last 2 months, with everything +3%
UW Miracles 11%
BUG Aggro / Midrange 8%
Grixis Delver 7%
Eldrazi Aggro 7%
Burn 5%
Death & Taxes 5%
Show and Tell 5%
Infect 4%
Elves 4%
Lands 3%
Stoneblade 3%
Storm 3%
Reanimator 3%
Painter 3%
This pretty accurately reflects what I'd expect to see at live tournaments right now. That's only 71%, but as you go longer in a tournament it's going to make up an increasingly large share as t2 fun decks tend to slowly float out of the tournament.
I tend to adjust my sideboard based on not 'what I want to beat/not lose to' but rather how often I find myself actually using a card. I think we can all agree that Rest in Peace and Ethersworn Canonist are the two best cards for the DnT sideboard, both are powerful enough that there is no way anyone should ever build a sideboard without copies of each. Not only are they super powerful effects, but, more importantly, they come in for a wide variety of matchups. If you play a long tournament and never use one of those cards, you've had a strange set of matchups.
If you build a sideboard dedicated to turning your 35% matchups (Elves, Infect etc.) into 50% matchups - but over time you end up playing your 50% (Miracles, Grixis Delver etc.) matchups 5x as often and have constantly worse g2/g3s against them because you had little to bring in, ultimately you're giving up the %s you gained vs the 35% matchups and then some. This is why I've stopped playing Sudden Demise even though it completely shores up the Elves matchup. I don't think spending 4 spots to shore up your worst matchup is a good use of resources when it's only 4% of the meta. If it were 11% of the meta, it almost certainly would be worth it.
I have been having a lot of success with Path to Exile lately in my board, it has been so reliably good that it's entering RiP/Ethersworn territory for me. It *significantly* improves one of your worst matchups (Infect) while still coming in against lots of other stuff. I would be bring it in for 10/14 of those above decks (BUG Delver, Grixis Delver, Eldrazi, Burn, DnT, Infect, Elves, Lands, Reanimator, Painter.) The drawback of ramping them is far more theoretical than real in my experience, Elves is the only place you really feel it. A good percentage of the field just doesn't play basics, or fetches them immediately (especially g2 vs Imperial) so it just ends up being a strictly better StP.
I know people love Council's Judgment, which also a great card for the same reason - broad application. But against most of those above decks having a 1 mana instant speed removal spell whenever you need it is more powerful than having a 3 mana removal spell that can deal with more stuff. Going up to 6 copies of an instant speed 1 mana removal spell feels almost like cheating when you're playing a creature tempo matchup like Delver or the mirror.
I don't disagree with asking "how often do I use the card", so much as I think we have to take both into consideration. For example, if I am facing 4c, BUG and RUG Delver frequently, I am certainly asking "what do I really need to do to beat them/not lose?" Well, against BUG and RUG, RiP is huge and I already run that because it is good against so many decks, as you say. What really adds value to those matches, besides RiP, that I want to take other cards out for? If I run other cards to take that match from 60% to 80%, whereas RiP alone takes me to 75%, what is their marginal value?Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
In other words, there are diminishing returns at the top as well as at the bottom. However, there are certain cards that improve multiple match-ups incrementally and a few match-ups a lot. I tend to opt for those.
For example, Sudden Demise is great against Elves, but it is also good against Delver, especially Grixis with Pyromancer and UR Delver. It is playable against Shardless BUG. It's also fine against Infect because you can sweep some Hierarchs and infect creatures (post-board, they often like to go wide, to make our spot removal less efficient) or force them to use up pump spells. It's good against fringe decks like Goblins, decent against Merfolk, etc. I like it in the mirror if we get behind. It's even okay against Dredge to sweep tokens if they got a little out of hand before you RiP'd them. Is it optimal against any one of those? Not really, but maybe it brings marginal advantage against a lot of decks and a major boost against one of our worst matches.
On the other hand, Chalice of the Void is really good against a lot of decks. It also plays very well with the E-Tutor approach, since a virtual 3-of is much better than a virtual 1-of and it is solid against Burn, Infect, Elves, Storm, Belcher, Grixis and UR Delver, Reanimator, and more. Now we are talking about a sideboard card with value against 20% of the decks in the format, but I only need to run 1 because I run the E-Tutor 2/2/2 core package.
I tend to like cards that give me incremental advantage in my even-good matches, but that really buttress my poor-fair matches significantly so they become even-good.
I haven't followed the evolution of DnT the last year, been playing TES. Just found my way back and have a couple of questions regarding sideboards:
A lot of you seem to like Council's Judgment, but I prefer playing Disenchant to deal with annoying artifacts and enchantments. Sure, it can't kill jace or lilly, but is there any other upside that makes it worth the extra mana?
What happened to Flagstones of Trokair? I play the full set, always liked it. Is there any reason not to except the occasional Blood Moon? I think the synergy with Catyaclysm and the protection vs. Massacre motivates playing 4.
The list I play right now looks like this:
land (23):
4 waste, 4 port, 4 flagstones
3 karakas
1 canopy
7 plains
noncreature (11):
4 stp, 4 vial
3 equipment (SoFaI, jitte, skull)
guys (26):
4 mom, 4 thalia, 4 flickerwisp, 4 revoker, 4 sfm
2 serra avenger, 2 horse-thalia, 2 crusader
board (vs. ~50% combo)
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 RiP
2 Canonist
2 Cataclysm
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Path to Exile
Final questions:
Is Warping Wail worth buying at all? It does not seem to fit the "port you every turn" philosophy very well.
And how's the eldrazi stompy matchup? I got utterly crushed by chalices and thorns while playing storm, still haven't played it with DnT.
I'm sorry that I'm too lazy to read everything that's been written the last year, I have read the last pages though and gotten a lot of info from the sideboard discussions :)
Was it Brad Nelson that said, "If it weren't for sideboarding, we content producers would be out of our jobs"? Neat discussion. I've been using the monowhite board I posted last page, but I might try some Tutors at the GPLA side events.
True-Name, Progenitus, usually easier to kill a Counterbalance with a 3 than a 2, even hits "regular" creatures in a pinch. Some people play a Seal of Cleansing rather than Disenchant if they're on the Tutor plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Klirre
Works well with Cat and Dust Bowl, so you should run them if you run any of those. As to "what happened," a lot of people dropped Cataclysm from their sideboards, which in turn led to dropping Flagstones from the maindeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Klirre
Thanks for the love Dan, it's a pleasure to have you hang out with us!Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
New episode of Legacy's Allure is posted! This time we investigate the long-time anomaly of the Tier 1 Legacy metagame. How exactly does a deck without Brainstorm hold its own so well? Join us and find out!
Webcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UojckDF75-A
Podcast: https://archive.org/details/LegacysA...sWithMarcKonig
Hello
I'm new to the deck and just finished building it. I used to play goblins. I have a few questions about interactions and decisions. Deck list below.
//Lands
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Karakas
9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
//Spells
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Ęther Vial
//Creatures
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
//Sideboard
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Cataclysm
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Disenchant
1 Sunlance
1 Manriki-Gusari
I have seen some matches of death and taxes players and noticed that when players have both Thalia and Stoneforge in hand, some decide to play 2nd turn Thalia and some Stoneforge. My question is in which matchups you should play Thalia or Stoneforge if you have both in hand at second turn?
I have learned a lot with the discussions in this forum. Thanks for the input.