All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Zilla

With regards to the TNN debate, it seems like the two sides are arguing two totally different points:

Ban Crowd: TNN is bad for Legacy because it's almost unanimously agreed that it creates boring, unfun games.

Anti-Ban Crowd: TNN isn't broken and people just need to adapt.

You know how people adapt to boring games? They stop playing.

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Now that is a valid point. Unbanning Mind's Desire would make things really exciting though.

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Originally Posted by JPoJohnson

Anyone that says either Mind's Desire or Earthcraft or Yawgmoth's Bargain can be unbanned NP do not realize how powerful they are. :really:

I don't really see any on the list that will be coming off.

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Really, Earthcraft? The other two are pretty obvious though.

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Originally Posted by testing32

Now that is a valid point. Unbanning Mind's Desire would make things really exciting though.

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Only Bryant, and in his pants.

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Originally Posted by testing32

This. People complain every time a new card is printed that makes their pet decks unplayable. TNN is fine.

Cards that could be unbanned without a problem - Mind's Desire, Bargain, Frantic Search, Earthcraft, Mind Twist and Black Vise.

The delver and esper decks are slanted hard to beat the fair decks. Storm needs some love. Mind Twist and Black Vise aren't even good cards.

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Desire:

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

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Originally Posted by testing32

I think the meta could handle it. Might have to stop running 4 bolts and 4 plows main though. Which would be a good thing.

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Those are some good drugs you are on what kind? And are you sharing cause DAMN!

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Second two underlined, wow fun games for all. They'd add nothing to the format, and just risk making it worse. But hey, nothing the format can't deal with right?

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Originally Posted by testing32

TNN can't be shoved into anything (Bant, TA). It's played almost exclusively with SFM in a tempo/control shell.

TNN kills RUG, Shardless, Maverick and Jund. It's not overwhelming top 8s. People cry about their pet decks.

Show and Tell kills zoo, lands and aggroloam. It's not overwhelming top 8s. People cry about their pet decks.

Seems pretty similar to me.

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TNN isn't played in those decks because TNN+Stoneforge > TNN. No Stoneforge, I guarantee you those decks would play TNN.
TNN decks are ~50% of the meta, format Brainstorm penetration is 65%. Balance!

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

QFT. Honestly, the ones posting that it would be fine must not have seen what it can do. Honestly, in a format that allows 4 or none, Minds Desire will often hit minds desire, and that, people, is some bs you want no part in.

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Sure, if you can get Mind's Desire with a storm count in the teens, you win, but that's also true of other storm spells, and it's not that easy to chain with low storm counts:

Let's say that there are 45 cards left in the deck with three Mind's Desire's in the deck (one's on the stack, right?) You'd have to hit a storm count of 8 to have a 50% chance of chaining. Tutoring into Tendrils of Agony instead can win outright for the same mana cost.

I guess the best bet would be to run with Ill-Gotten Gains as a secondary recursion engine, but even with 7 repeater effects in the deck , it's still got a 20% chance to blank.

Not to mention that Ad Nausem is already pretty close to 'I win now' at 1 cc less in an acceleration-friendlier color.

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Originally Posted by Zilla

With regards to the TNN debate, it seems like the two sides are arguing two totally different points:

Ban Crowd: TNN is bad for Legacy because it's almost unanimously agreed that it creates boring, unfun games.

Anti-Ban Crowd: TNN isn't broken and people just need to adapt.

You know how people adapt to boring games? They stop playing.

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This is by FAR the most important point that has been made in this entire discussion.

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Originally Posted by rufus

Sure, if you can get Mind's Desire with a storm count in the teens, you win, but that's also true of other storm spells, and it's not that easy to chain with low storm counts:

Let's say that there are 45 cards left in the deck with three Mind's Desire's in the deck (one's on the stack, right?) You'd have to hit a storm count of 8 to have a 50% chance of chaining. Tutoring into Tendrils of Agony instead can win outright for the same mana cost.

I guess the best bet would be to run with Ill-Gotten Gains as a secondary recursion engine, but even with 7 repeater effects in the deck , it's still got a 20% chance to blank.

Not to mention that Ad Nausem is already pretty close to 'I win now' at 1 cc less in an acceleration-friendlier color.

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This is why (as a Storm player myself) I've never really understood the OMG chicken little argument regarding Desire. The card never dominated Extended and has been banned in Legacy forever. We have no real idea what it would do in the format, but I lean towards "not a huge amount" due to casting cost and other available options. I would play it though, because it is my favorite card in magic.

I think we can agree that if a card on the banned list is a less powerful version of a card that currently sees play, then it is safe to unban.

Black vise is probably just a worse version of lightning bolt for decks that want it. The controlling decks in the format tend to expend their resources into virtual card advantage rather quickly. Could unban

Mind twist feels worse than hymn to tourach and is certainly less of a finisher than other spells you can cast with similar mana investments (see: show and tell, ad nauseam etc) Could unban

Bargain is an upgrade to Ad nauseam: I get to run multiples and pay less per card in decks not labeled TES. Also might open up counterspells in storm since the increased bomb count means I don't necessarily need LED to get hellbent, and can instead crack LED after my bomb has resolved. I also get to piece meal my combo: Pass turn to untap lands before going off again. Can't unban

Mind's desire is... harder to evaluate. UU is certainly difficult but not unmanageable (might require LED if not using high tide). High tide seems like a natural shell although time spiral might end up being better there. As a burning wish target, you'll need high bomb density main and sufficient storm count to really take off with it, maybe something like 3x tendrils 4x Desire 2x past in flames? I'm not sure if the decks created for this are faster/more resilient than the current options. They probably are. 90% can't unban (10% wants to play with)

Frantic search I would love to have since it promotes combo decks that I think are far more interesting than show and tell/reanimator. I also think this card is very powerful with the pool of cards legacy contains. Can't unban

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

1.) Pre-TNN, you could only call Patriot a true meta player as Blade Control and Deathblade were way, way down. I went through this already in a different thread, but here's the data: (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post772437).

The fact that Blade decks existed as a Magic: The Gathering deck pre-TNN is irrelevant as they weren't nearly putting up the results they are post-TNN. If they were all top tier before TNN (which my data shows they weren't), you'd have a point there. But alas, they were not, so you do not.

2.) Ever notice that decks only run enough TNN as they do Equipment? Patriot runs 2 maindeck Equipments and 2 TNN. Blade Control is generally on 3 maindeck Equipments and 3 maindeck TNN. You don't need to run the full 4 because you're not going to be able to have 2 TNN both equipped with Jitte in play or 2 TNN w/ 2 Batterskull equipped to them. I can't believe I even had to point that out.

Also, there are many decks that do not run a full playset of a card, even though that card is a defining, pivotal piece. Jund runs 3 Bloodbraid, AnT runs 1 Ad Nauseam, etc. Your argument of "unless it runs 4, it isn't a TNN deck" makes no sense whatsoever as TNN is clearly the primary mechanism of all of these decks' success. Again, look at the tourney results for all of these decks pre-TNN and post-TNN, it's almost night and day.

3.) Every deck that can maximize TNN's potential is currently doing so. Every deck running blue and SFM is running TNN. As UR Burn and Team America has learned by now, TNN w/o Equipment sucks, but ONLY because it's very likely facing off against an opposing TNN w/ Equipment. If the best thing you can do is resolve TNN, then what better way to trump your opponent's TNN then to Equip your TNN with Jitte? Oh that's right, there is no better strategy which why people have been CRUSHING with the TNN-Equipment plan.

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1. If that's the case then it means it brought 2 decks to the forefront, in contrast with lots saying it's just inhibiting decks. +1 for TNN.

2. I can't believe that's your explanation. Absolutely dumb to me. Plenty of good reasons to run more than the equipment you run. That definitely isn't it.

Bloodbraid is run as a 3-of due to its mana cost and due to its variance can be very low impact. Ad Nauseam is a 1-of because the deck has tutors and cantrips and it hurts its own strategy(by being 5cmc). Poor examples to go with your poor reasoning.

3. The bolded is nonsense. It's the flavor right now. People just need to adapt. And people have started doing so, with various lands based decks(which were almost completely gone in the format), more combo, or with other tier 1 strategies that have kept up against it.

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Originally Posted by Zilla

With regards to the TNN debate, it seems like the two sides are arguing two totally different points:

Ban Crowd: TNN is bad for Legacy because it's almost unanimously agreed that it creates boring, unfun games.

Anti-Ban Crowd: TNN isn't broken and people just need to adapt.

You know how people adapt to boring games? They stop playing.

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If "Boredom" is the reason this is a completely different debate then. Not the only one going on here though.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

TNN decks are ~50% of the meta, format Brainstorm penetration is 65%. Balance!

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What the "Blue has always been the best color; it will always be the best color; stop saying things are worse or better; deal with it" crowd omit is past years. Check out 2011.

Brainstorm in 52% of decks and look at the metagame breakdown on the right.

This is a broader issue than just TNN, of course.

Why are all those cards mentioned before Memory Jar? As much as I like the card art and flavor-wise, I really can't imagine it being very playable...

have fun

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Originally Posted by Mastikor

Why are all those cards mentioned before Memory Jar? As much as I like the card art and flavor-wise, I really can't imagine it being very playable...

have fun

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Trolling for science are we?

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Originally Posted by rufus

Sure, if you can get Mind's Desire with a storm count in the teens, you win, but that's also true of other storm spells, and it's not that easy to chain with low storm counts:

Let's say that there are 45 cards left in the deck with three Mind's Desire's in the deck (one's on the stack, right?) You'd have to hit a storm count of 8 to have a 50% chance of chaining. Tutoring into Tendrils of Agony instead can win outright for the same mana cost.

I guess the best bet would be to run with Ill-Gotten Gains as a secondary recursion engine, but even with 7 repeater effects in the deck , it's still got a 20% chance to blank.

Not to mention that Ad Nausem is already pretty close to 'I win now' at 1 cc less in an acceleration-friendlier color.

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You do realize that Desire lets you cast those tutors for free, right? And all the other things you draw, like the mana accelerants? You can Desire into a free burning wish (for example, it'd see play if desire was made legal), some mana, and then cast a Desire from your sideboard? So, 3 Desire in main and 4 burning wish is actually 7 Desire. Oh, and if you emptied your hand first, those Infernal tutors also help you out? God forbid you chain into Ant and free mana and then just draw another mind's and cast it and then just orgasm all over the other player.

There's a reason it's restricted in Vintage.

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Originally Posted by [SLAYER]chaos

I don't think Library or Drain are too powerful for Legacy, there just aren't enough copies of those cards in existence for our format.

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Doubt library of alexandria and drain would get unbanned they would be way to expensive... just imagine what happpend to moat and tabernacle.

I could see Library unbanned only if it gets reworded as legendary. Beside that, there's the pricing issue.

It's hilarious that peeps forget about the deckbuilding restrictions of Ad Nauseam and that all those are gone the moment Bargain or Desire would be unbanned. Desire would be a Maindeck 4-off and is an engine completely Independent from your life total. A stormcount of 6 is more than enough in a deck with Infernals and Wishes.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

You do realize that Desire lets you cast those tutors for free, right? And all the other things you draw, like the mana accelerants? You can Desire into a free burning wish (for example, it'd see play if desire was made legal), some mana, and then cast a Desire from your sideboard? So, 3 Desire in main and 4 burning wish is actually 7 Desire. Oh, and if you emptied your hand first, those Infernal tutors also help you out? God forbid you chain into Ant and free mana and then just draw another mind's and cast it and then just orgasm all over the other player.

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In order to tutor into Mind's Desire "for free" you'll need at least 2 accelerants (i.e. Lion's Eye Diamond + Dark Ritual) and a tutor card. Let's say that you manage to pack 16 LED equivalent acclerants and 12 tutors into your deck, and you hit a storm count of 8. That gives around a 75% chance to hit on tutors, and roughly 87% if you allow for another Mind's Desire. Tutor -> tendrils is still better.

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A stormcount of 6 is more than enough in a deck with Infernals and Wishes.

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Let's assume that you've got 1 Mind's Desire in the sideboard to start, and let's say that you go hellbent with an infernal tutor to go off. So, with the 7 free spells, you'd have to:
1. hit one of the 2 Desires left in the deck. (About a 26% chance.)
2. find two acceleration cards and a tutor card, provided you got no Mind's Desires. (Assuming 12 accelerants, and 8 tutors about 50% of the remaning 7 card piles - total about 2/3 chance to chain)

Flipping Tendrils of Agony is likely to be a winner too, so the odds of going off are a little better, but it's pretty risky.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

You do realize that Desire lets you cast those tutors for free, right? And all the other things you draw, like the mana accelerants? You can Desire into a free burning wish (for example, it'd see play if desire was made legal), some mana, and then cast a Desire from your sideboard? So, 3 Desire in main and 4 burning wish is actually 7 Desire. Oh, and if you emptied your hand first, those Infernal tutors also help you out? God forbid you chain into Ant and free mana and then just draw another mind's and cast it and then just orgasm all over the other player.

There's a reason it's restricted in Vintage.

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Yeah, because Lotus, Moxen, and all the other absurd mana artifacts are legal.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

It's hilarious that peeps forget about the deckbuilding restrictions of Ad Nauseam and that all those are gone the moment Bargain or Desire would be unbanned. Desire would be a Maindeck 4-off and is an engine completely Independent from your life total. A stormcount of 6 is more than enough in a deck with Infernals and Wishes.

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I understand this completely. The issue then becomes: is the resulting deck better than existing combo decks? I have a feeling it would be a Spiral Tide-esque slow/consistent deck, but would it be better/more resilient than Spiral Tide or the various A+B decks? These questions intrigue me enough to consider unbanning it, if only to see what - if anything -would happen.

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Originally Posted by rufus

Let's assume that you've got 1 Mind's Desire in the sideboard to start, and let's say that you go hellbent with an infernal tutor to go off. So, with the 7 free spells, you'd have to:
1. hit one of the 2 Desires left in the deck. (About a 26% chance.)
2. find two acceleration cards and a tutor card, provided you got no Mind's Desires. (Assuming 12 accelerants, and 8 tutors about 50% of the remaning 7 card piles - total about 2/3 chance to chain)

Flipping Tendrils of Agony is likely to be a winner too, so the odds of going off are a little better, but it's pretty risky.

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That assumption is off.

1) There won't be a Desire in the SB as getting hands on it is all you want and flipping Desire into Desire is a win
2) you won't play dead cards like Tendrils in your MD
3) free cantrips you flip for Desire provide additional outs

Don't proof points with questionable deck design

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

I understand this completely. The issue then becomes: is the resulting deck better than existing combo decks? I have a feeling it would be a Spiral Tide-esque slow/consistent deck, but would it be better/more resilient than Spiral Tide or the various A+B decks? These questions intrigue me enough to consider unbanning it, if only to see what - if anything -would happen.

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The point is that you can play slow and controlling, using your life as a buffer against Aggro and tempo without negating your engine while still remain the Belcher-like T1/2 kills against all other decks

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Originally Posted by Zilla

With regards to the TNN debate, it seems like the two sides are arguing two totally different points:

Ban Crowd: TNN is bad for Legacy because it's almost unanimously agreed that it creates boring, unfun games.

Anti-Ban Crowd: TNN isn't broken and people just need to adapt.

You know how people adapt to boring games? They stop playing.

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In my case, I adapted by picking up TNN decks and apologizing profusely to each opponent for playing a "bitch" card.

The point is that you don't care about your life at all. The biggest restriction is producing enough :u:. You can run all 4 Tendrils, all the mana, all the cantrips, and all the tutors. You are pretty good to hit another Mind's Desire. And if you happen to not hit another tutor/Mind's Desire then you've probably refilled your hand as well as your life total. That said... I sure wouldn't mind playing this deck. haha

Pleeease unban it, but don't think for a second that it won't be very, very powerful.

Desire is so ridiculously powerful that even as a 1 of in Vintage it is busted. I can't imagine what the format would be like if it were legal as a 4 of.