[Deck] The Rock

Has anyone considered trying a Living Wish toolbox? Wish is still active under Teeg unlike GSZ and the card goes right into your hand unlike Enlightened Tutor. It fits into the Sylvan/SDT slot as an additional mode of card selection and is live more often late game IMO. This is what I'm testing:


4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Living Wish
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Oblivion Ring

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest

2 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Batterskull
1 Nihil Spellbomb

1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Loxodon Smiter
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

I am doing the 3-2 split in favor of IoK over Thoughtseize right now because I think I want to strip cheap enablers more often than I want to strip things with CC4 or more and it saves some life, but that may be incorrect. Also testing not having Batterskull in the main because I have lots of spirits to stick SoFI and Jitte to and I'd rather not be timewalked by Stoneforging for Batterskull into Bolt/STP (or worse, Wasteland-Bolt/STP). In my opinion, if you were ever able to stick a batterskull in most matchups after grabbing it T2, you probably would win just as easily by sticking a SoFI or Jitte while having flexibility in case something distasteful happens. Against tempo decks, I can board it and the 4th SFM in for Thoughtseize. Can also bring it in vs. combo for that extra clock.

I might go to 2 Teeg in the board since it's such a crusher for Miracles and Storm combo, but I don't know what to cut. Teeg is always my first Wish against those decks with Thalia and Revoker/Canonist as backup. Against sneak+show wish for Karakas of course (and board in other combo hatebears over Abrupt Decays). Against reanimator or dredge you can wish for Macabre to buy you time to stick a DRS. (Postboard, do I just want Rest in Peace to win instead of Spellbomb so I can preserve DRS/Souls? I just love drawing that card off spellbomb...)

Loxodon Smiter is because sometimes you just want something huge and it can't be stripped or countered (for example in the late game when attrition has worn both hands down, it narrows the opposition's ability to get rid of it to their hard removal which is really Swords or AD). But I also considered Stirring Wildwood here since it blocks/kills Delver and also can't be stripped or countered. However, I'm a little scared of Wasteland in that case.

the problem with living wish is that.. the card is way too slow. Casting it on turn 2 to get a SFM you can only play turn 3. Nuh-uh, rather just cast SFM t2 and be done with it. Even getting combo hate creatures is too slow, since they are likely to go off before you get to do anything + they get free information which they can play around if needed

That's been my experience with Mox+Chalice Hoogland decks that rely on 4x Living Wish. It can be powerful and versatile, but extremely slow. One point I also found was that often it makes the deck way too reactive so that you're drawing a Living Wish against an empty board and really don't have a good use for it.

Well I took it for a spin last night at our weekly.

1-2 UWR delver--crushed him game 1. Game 2 I played around Wasteland, which meant I spent an AD early on a delver instead of an STP and he got Jitte on a TNN. Game 3 I had to keep a 5-land 6-card hand (I had wasteland, swamp, 3 fetches and souls, I didn't think that was worse than random 5 since I could fetch all my basics and waste his first land) but he had more gas. I lose to Bob flipping souls at 3 but he probably had bolt anyway

1-2 BR zombie pox--He got off multiple smallpox g1, DRS won game 2, game 3 I got flooded out

2-1 BG rock--hooray, I won the mirror match. Only match in which I resolved a living wish, grabbing a Smiter while he had a Lili on 1. Tech!

0-2 TES--I know this guy and what he's on. Keep a 6 with Thoughtseize and wish on the play. Just gotta get to turn 3. I TS him, see an undisputable turn one win. Game 2 I keep double wasteland, double scrubland, Lili, sfm, souls. Not great but I have lots of relevant stuff to draw into. He fetches a usea and cabals calling Thalia, then gets a gross look. Got em, I thought as I waste the sea. He rips a gemstone mine and wins.

Sooo I think I'll try again with the same build and try not to suck at mulliganning.

I went 0-3 at the SCG Open and dropped after I got the Bye for round 4. I played against RUG (1-2), Punishing Jund (0-2), and UWR Delver (1-2). The deck felt just too passive and reactionary, your threats are either very vulnerable (SFM) or weak (Lingering Souls, DRS) and the deck with just 4 Thoughtseize has very few ways to interact.

I had a few misplays here and there, like running my SFM into a Daze game 3 - which ended up being the game losing play on turn 3 - and fetching Manriki Gusari instead of Batterskull when I was facing down an opposing Batterskull...overall the deck felt very glass-cannony. Jund just used Punishing Fire and discard to deal with SFM/DRS, and when I had him on a blank board against my Liliana at 7 counters and 2 Lingering Souls, he got back to back BBE into Abrupt Decay (for Lili) and Goyf to take the game.

I may just need more practice with it, but overall it felt like this type of Rock needs more disruption via targeted discard so it can protect its threats, or to play bigger beaters to end the game quicker.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

I went 0-3 at the SCG Open and dropped after I got the Bye for round 4. I played against RUG (1-2), Punishing Jund (0-2), and UWR Delver (1-2). The deck felt just too passive and reactionary, your threats are either very vulnerable (SFM) or weak (Lingering Souls, DRS) and the deck with just 4 Thoughtseize has very few ways to interact. I had a few misplays here and there, like running my SFM into a Daze game 3 - which ended up being the game losing play on turn 3 - and fetching Manriki Gusari instead of Batterskull when I was facing down an opposing Batterskull...overall the deck felt very glass-cannony. Jund just used Punishing Fire and discard to deal with SFM/DRS, and when I had him on a blank board against my Liliana at 7 counters and 2 Lingering Souls, he got back to back BBE into Abrupt Decay (for Lili) and Goyf to take the game. I may just need more practice with it, but overall it felt like this type of Rock needs more disruption via targeted discard so it can protect its threats, or to play bigger beaters to end the game quicker.

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Sounds like some bad puck luck there vs. Jund. Were you running 4 thoughtseize? Even then, given how you ended up dying, not much you could've done other than Cabal Therapy naming BBE (Duress/IoK don't hit it). I side out TS in fair matchups anyway. Make 'em kill a Canonist to get the cascade.

Goyf might just be the answer but they're so hard to get a hold of.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

I went 0-3 at the SCG Open and dropped after I got the Bye for round 4. I played against RUG (1-2), Punishing Jund (0-2), and UWR Delver (1-2). The deck felt just too passive and reactionary, your threats are either very vulnerable (SFM) or weak (Lingering Souls, DRS) and the deck with just 4 Thoughtseize has very few ways to interact.

I had a few misplays here and there, like running my SFM into a Daze game 3 - which ended up being the game losing play on turn 3 - and fetching Manriki Gusari instead of Batterskull when I was facing down an opposing Batterskull...overall the deck felt very glass-cannony. Jund just used Punishing Fire and discard to deal with SFM/DRS, and when I had him on a blank board against my Liliana at 7 counters and 2 Lingering Souls, he got back to back BBE into Abrupt Decay (for Lili) and Goyf to take the game.

I may just need more practice with it, but overall it felt like this type of Rock needs more disruption via targeted discard so it can protect its threats, or to play bigger beaters to end the game quicker.

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Punishing Fire is hard for us to beat, that's why I'm packing two Ooze total, with the hope that one might get killed before, and then you have enough mana to turn off their Fires. It's why the new Lands deck can, at times, be a shitty matchup.

What's your actual list? I ran this at a Qualifier tournament for a Mox tournament in May:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of fire and Ice
3 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

2 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pernicious Deed

Went 2-2, losing to ANT and LED Dredge. LED Dredge I beat game 1 (what?) and lost Games 2 and 3, leading with discard in game 2 taking LED, but he ripped LED #2, and in Game 3 I started with Turn 1 Deathrite but he had double LED Breakthrough into double Faithless Looting.

Against ANT, I lost on Turn 1 in Game 1, then won Game 2, then lost Game 3 since I kept a marginal hand which became worse when I realized I boarded out something that I needed to E. Tutor for and lost.

I ended up CRUSHING RUG Delver, and playing some grindy games Round 1 against Death and Taxes splashing Black for Confidant, Sculler, and Thoughtseize. He also had green in the board for Grip and Teeg. Grip was key int he matchup, as were Charm and ZP.

3 Goyf is pretty great because sometimes, he just goes all the way. Nevermind the fact that you've got the Equips you can put on him. Having 7-10 maindeck removal is also pretty hectic for other decks to play against.

I feel pretty decent against the fair decks, but Jace can sometimes get away from you out of nowhere. I feel like I would definitely put in a Canonist since I'm running Enlightened tutor. However, fyi, Sylvan seals games, hands down.

I agree Souls is very good, and depending on how much Jace is in the format, I may run Souls to pressure Walkers.

Just my experience. Variance happens, Claymore. We don't have cascade, and we don't play blue, so it can be an uphill battle.

-Matt

I ran this mainboard and 13/15 of the sideboard, removing Ensnaring Bridge and Crucible for Noetic Scales and Words of Wilding (neither of which came up at all) - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=65252.

The only difference with the main was -2 Top, +1 Sword Fire and Ice, +1 Sylvan Library.

Against Jund, I lost games 1 and 2 to top-decked Bloodbraids so nothing to do there, but my board prescence at those times was just Souls tokens that were unable to put enough pressure to close out the game and unable to do anything on defense. I had games were flying souls were able to carry equipment overhead against UWR and RUG, so that was nice.

I usually run a Goyf/Knight/SFM list but felt this one had promise due to the pilot's success, but I don't think it was for me.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

I ran this mainboard and 13/15 of the sideboard, removing Ensnaring Bridge and Crucible for Noetic Scales and Words of Wilding (neither of which came up at all) - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=65252.

The only difference with the main was -2 Top, +1 Sword Fire and Ice, +1 Sylvan Library.

Against Jund, I lost games 1 and 2 to top-decked Bloodbraids so nothing to do there, but my board prescence at those times was just Souls tokens that were unable to put enough pressure to close out the game and unable to do anything on defense. I had games were flying souls were able to carry equipment overhead against UWR and RUG, so that was nice.

I usually run a Goyf/Knight/SFM list but felt this one had promise due to the pilot's success, but I don't think it was for me.

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Yeah, this list has no actual "beef." congrats on this guy doing well, but I don't like it.

-Matt

lately i have been thinking of even replacing my last 2 knights in my list completely for 2 quasali pridemages

the quasalis together with 2 GSZ could make quite a difference in the equipment based matchups in which i struggled a lot before i added my own SFM.... still brainstorm and specially jace are a pain

i run lingering souls in my sideboard for exaclty this reason... so pressure planeswalkers, but with 2 quasali pridemages that i could allways search for my soul tokens could still pressure my opponent and his planeswalkers while being able to defend as well, while negating opposing equipments completely

i think quasali would shine in a lot of matchups we would normaly struggle quite a bit, like deathblade (damn TNN) other blade variants specially with TNN, Death & Taxes (depends on skill of opponent because not a lot of people know how to handle the deck right, even after it became a deck to beat...)

with no equipment on opponents side allmost all of these decks get completely crushed by golgari charms or persecution

still i would feel bad for my knights :( i really loved her

what do you guys think?

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

lately i have been thinking of even replacing my last 2 knights in my list completely for 2 quasali pridemages

the quasalis together with 2 GSZ could make quite a difference in the equipment based matchups in which i struggled a lot before i added my own SFM.... still brainstorm and specially jace are a pain

i run lingering souls in my sideboard for exaclty this reason... so pressure planeswalkers, but with 2 quasali pridemages that i could allways search for my soul tokens could still pressure my opponent and his planeswalkers while being able to defend as well, while negating opposing equipments completely

i think quasali would shine in a lot of matchups we would normaly struggle quite a bit, like deathblade (damn TNN) other blade variants specially with TNN, Death & Taxes (depends on skill of opponent because not a lot of people know how to handle the deck right, even after it became a deck to beat...)

with no equipment on opponents side allmost all of these decks get completely crushed by golgari charms or persecution

still i would feel bad for my knights :( i really loved her

what do you guys think?

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I agree. Knight really only shines in the Jund matchup now, or if you're on the Dark Depths plan. 3 mana, whether on the play or on the draw, isn't a good play against most of the decks in the format. It used to be, but not anymore. It's sad since I love Knight too, but it doesn't trample is the problem.

-Matt

@ sdmatt

i think the important question now is what matchups in general the uses of quasali are, and in what matchups he sucks completely

you have got a lot more insight in the current meta and cardchoices, and i am sure you have a lot of expierience with quasali

i would love if you could share them with me

another question i would have on the topic of cutting knight completely from my list

should i cut the one-off karakas as well in that case?, and what options do i have for the sideboard to battle with show and tell / reanimator decks without karakas or knight
plus.... would be a maze of ith of some use again, even with knight gone?, or should the karakas (if cut) become the 4th wasteland, or some other utility land (maybe treetop village, bojuka bog, maze of ith, horizon canopy, nantuko monastery)?

thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

@ sdmatt

i think the important question now is what matchups in general the uses of quasali are, and in what matchups he sucks completely

you have got a lot more insight in the current meta and cardchoices, and i am sure you have a lot of expierience with quasali

i would love if you could share them with me

another question i would have on the topic of cutting knight completely from my list

should i cut the one-off karakas as well in that case?, and what options do i have for the sideboard to battle with show and tell / reanimator decks without karakas or knight
plus.... would be a maze of ith of some use again, even with knight gone?, or should the karakas (if cut) become the 4th wasteland, or some other utility land (maybe treetop village, bojuka bog, maze of ith, horizon canopy, nantuko monastery)?

thanks

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How I thought about it was like this: If I'm cutting Knight, is it worth it to have a 1-of Karakas for value? Chances are, against SnT, I won't draw it and I can't tutor for it. If I'm also running SFM, I want a non-Wastelandable white source for using SFM. I replaced my Karakas with Plains after thinking about this.

Your SnT matchup does go down by taking out Knight, but it's definitely sub par in the following matches:

Storm
Jace/TNN
Miracles
Elves


You may only leave it in against Merfolk (if anyone plays it anymore), Jund, Reanimator, and SnT, all of which are on the decline.

Qasali has good value against:

TNN decks (for equipment)
DnT (for Equipments/Revokers/Vial)
Miracles (Counterbalance/Top/Moat/etc.)
Goyf decks (Exalted means Goyf can't block your Goyf)
Dredge (sac it to hurt their bridges)
Storm (hitting an LED if you need to)
OmniTell (for Omniscience)
Sneak Attack (for Sneak Attack)


All in all, I really like the card. I just don't have the slot to run one. I miss it, but had to cut it for SFM #4. I might put it in the board at some point, but we'll see. It's better than Knight in this deck, that's for sure.

As for adding in more utility lands without Knight, I'm just playing more Basic lands as well. 2 Swamp, 1 Forest, 1 Plains. Painter's popularity has been on the rise, so I want to lose to Blood Moon as little as possible. Same with these BUG Tempo decks, and all the Stifle and such.

Just my opinion, though.

-Matt

thanks a lot matt...
your insight helped me a lot finaly deciding on quasali vs. knight

i will definitely switch to quasali now

basically my list would be allmost the same as yours i think....(post it at the end what i have got in mind now)

and probably i will cut the karakas for something else, but i will have to try a few cards here, among which are 2nd horizon canopy, treetop village, 4th wasteland (i will have to test all 3 of em,... but probably it will either become a canopy or a treetop village..... specially treetop sounds intresting with trample and one of the swords of x/y, specially with a lot of TNN in the field)
i will not use a plains in place of karakas, because i am allready running a basic plains in my list

i have to say, that i not even realiced in how many matchups quasali would be useful right now, .... again, thanks a lot for your insight

my maindeck after changes will look like this:

23 LANDS

4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
3-4 wasteland
3 overgrown tomb (still on shocklands :frown: )
2 godless shrine ( :frown: )
1-2 horizon canopy
0-1 treetop village
2 dryad arbor
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains

17 CREATURES

4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
3 tarmogoyf
1 scavenging ooze
3 stoneforge mystic
2 quasali pridemage

21 SPELLS AND PERMANENTS

2 green sun's zenith
2 sylvan library
2 liliana of the veil
3 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
3 abrupt decay
4 swords to plowshares
1 umezawas jitte
1 sword of fire/ice or batterskull (if batterskull sword of x/y depending on meta will be in SB)

sideboard is not yet set

here i got a question again to matt

how did runed halos work?

thanks and obviously everyones opinions are allways welcome

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3 overgrown tomb (still on shocklands )
2 godless shrine

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Save up some money per week and buy these. Please!

I didn't get to test Runed Halos super extensively, but how I dealt with the situation was I added more Krosan Grip and Pithing Needle, and so far, it's been quite good.

-Matt

in what matchups do you board in needles?

i would think miracles for top
sneak attak
jace and liliana

anything else really relevant?


another thing i would love your opinion on

i now tested quasali as a 2-off
a singleton really helps a lot, in every situation you described, specially in goyfwars

yet the second one in the list seems a bit off and unnecessary

what would you replace it with?

i thought of:

batterskull (to a total of 3 equips)
3rd GSZ
3rd liliana
4th thoughtseize
even gaddock teeg MD
also a singleton eternal witness
or Thrun, the last troll

or even remove both quasalis and get 2 lingering souls MD again

i might have to test needles in my sideboard

EDIT: also terravore might be a usefull creature trampling over TNN or Mother of runes could be quite usefull, plus makes sure your swords would connect

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in what matchups do you board in needles?

i would think miracles for top
sneak attak
jace and liliana

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So, it is useful against Top, Griselbrand, Sneak Attack, Jace, are the ones that come to mind right now. I'm using it as my "I hate Miracles" piece.

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another thing i would love your opinion on

i now tested quasali as a 2-off
a singleton really helps a lot, in every situation you described, specially in goyfwars

yet the second one in the list seems a bit off and unnecessary

what would you replace it with?

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I would replace it with Ooze. Helps beat Snapcaster Mage, can give you some life, wins Deathrite Wars, can shut down Goyfs if you need to, cleans up Dredge, etc.

i thought of:

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batterskull (to a total of 3 equips)
3rd GSZ
3rd liliana
4th thoughtseize
even gaddock teeg MD
also a singleton eternal witness
or Thrun, the last troll

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Batterskull could also be fine, or the 4th Thoughtseize for sure. Looking at your list again, I wouldn't run 2 Ooze main. Instead, I would run Liliana #3 or Batterskull so you have more outs to TNN.

Terravore could be useful, but we don't put enough lands in the graveyard, and with Deathrites eating up the lands, I don't like this guy for the same reason I don't like Knight anymore. Having another threat that dies to Rest in Peace is also not as good.

I think also with these Noble Fish decks coming up, Zealous Persecution and just stuff like Deed gets better and better. I would also switch your STP/Decay split to 3 STP 4 Decay, just so you can take out Equips more often.

-Matt

or even remove both quasalis and get 2 lingering souls MD again

i might have to test needles in my sideboard

EDIT: also terravore might be a usefull creature trampling over TNN or Mother of runes could be quite usefull, plus makes sure your swords would connect

cool

i just found an old pet card of mine that would seem to perform a multi-usefull role in the deck

stops goyf-standoffs
semi-stops TNN
is a big beater and not graveyard dependant
curves well with the entire deck (costing 3 mana)
is GSZ-able
also makes goblin piledrivers allmost useless

if you still not get which card it would be :P its Doran, the Siege Tower

even if matt suggested running either 3rd liliana or a batterskull to deal with TNN, i still wanted a creature card that would be GSZ-able because i still love GSZ and without some usefull creatures to search for the whole package is obsolete

i will have to test him, if him..... but if he works out quite well i think of replacing the remaining Quasali Pridemage maybe even for a second Doran

Doran neutering TNN is definitely pretty sweet. He also makes Deathrites attack for 2, Goyfs for +1 of normal, and Delvers only deal 2. However, Stoneforge is now a 2 power if that matters.

It's definitely worth trying. It doesn't get neutered by Rest in Peace, either. Too bad he doesn't trample.

-Matt

Dorans biggest issue is Karakas. I've played him before in yardless junk, but having him bounced for the low cost of Tap Karakas is miserable.