ps if you go through the numbers, the missing 4 cards from my list were 4 matrons :smile:
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ps if you go through the numbers, the missing 4 cards from my list were 4 matrons :smile:
I would like to elaborate on my games with Earwig Squad yesterday. Squad wasn't all that effective. My reasoning for running it was that it can put on a clock and impede combo without diluting my deck. But it was slow. The only good thing about it is that it's CT-proof (they will always name Trap or Chalice) and its ability triggers when it hits play, so it can't be bounced or played around. Unfortunately it's ability is vanilla enough that resolving it in no way guarantees you the win. (An aside- shouldn't Earwig Squad be named something like Goblin Jesters to draw a connection between its ability and that of the classic Jester's Cap?) As a metagame call its kind of a mind fuck. Your opponents won't expect it and will be prepared to play through and around different cards g2, so running Squad makes their sideboard choices worse. But it does nothing if they decide to throw caution to the wind and just go off.
I have a few things to say about the data post.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
First, the one issue with this data is that there is the unknown variable of metagame. That said i do believe the data is mostly still valuable though it would have been nice to know how you gathered the data ie where from and what was the minimum tourney size allowed in the data(which has very large effect on the data.
I feel like we desperately need good data on the krenko/siege gang split. Its very hard to evaluate in theory because krenko has high theory value and high situation value, but redundancy on siege gang is also high value. Itd be nice to get some legit data on this.
There is no doubt that a 1 of chieftain is very good, even if you only see it as the 5th haste lord. The issue is fitting it.
Finally, i think that this data has brought up a good underlying point. Now that there are the three different deck styles (not including color splash differences 1. thalia main 2. Instigator main 3. Neither thalia nor instigator main) I believe that it would be good to get a consensus on what the cores of those decks are.
~Battozai
So At GP Worchester,
I found myself at 3-1-2, sitting down to play the mirror(on the play as i lost the die roll) agaisnt max tietze who had an identical record. I sat down made a joke about our ties as we had both just drawn our last round while sitting next to each other (incidentally he had drawn with the person i had drawn with the previous round). He smiled at the joke and then made a comment to the effect of this "You know people are always asking me how i get so many draws with goblins, but its really easy isnt it?" After the previous rounds and the last two decent sized events i had played in, I had to agree with him.
Goblins only gets easy wins about 1/2 of the games it wins. The other half are very grindy. Now with deathrite shaman being so ever present the deck is forced to be even more grindy than ever.
so i have two questions to pose.
First is this just play style or are a lot of people drawing more?
Second does anyone have any suggestions on how to help this issue?
~Battozai
I agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by -Battozai-
Tournament size does probably have an impact on the data. I included every record that I could find on the Goblins boards of mtgthesource and mtg-forum.de (which is the kind of like the German version of TheSource). I did not include games that were officially drawn (I.D. for prize splits, not even the games that are played "for fun"). I could have set a restriction to tournament size, but that would have made datacollection way harder than it already is. Most of the records were taken from small toruney (3-4 rounds), which on the other hand ensures a variety of decklists. i.e. a decklists played on a 8-round tournex makes 8 records withe xactly the same 60 cards, whereas 2 tourneys with 4 rounds each give us 2 different deckists.
And, yes, we do need data on the Krenko SGC split. However I hope the analysis can give people a "point of departure"...i.e. it reveals some issues on sinbgle-card choices and splits, that can then easily be adressed with good old playtesting. The Krenko vs. SGC debate is one such issue to be adressed. My gut feeling tells me that 0/0 is the best split between the two - which is something I can't support with my data...it's just my "insticts".
I don't think that reaching consensus on core cards is necessary. A set-in-stone core of cards is nothing but an anker for starters with the deck. I've always enjoyed that goblins are way more flexible in their maindeck and SB choices than any other legacy deck I know. That means, IF we were to define a core of each decktype seperately we would end up with something like 20-26 cards, which means that about 40-50% of the deck are relatively flexible cardchoices.
Thank you for your constructive feedback.
(1) only 2 out of 409 games in the dataset were official, not-agreed-on draws. Which is 1,2%. However, I must admit that I know what you mean. We usually have to fight for our wins and I can totally see people drawing with the deck more often than with others. In fact I rarely have the time to scout between games when I play Vial-Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by -Battozai-
(2) Experience. Routine. Shuffle faster. Ask your opponents to play faster (unless you are in game 1 and you know that you are winning anyway, that is).
so.... I did it! I played with the "theoretically best list of all", a list that maximize the win% data that GoboLord presented. 15 players, 4 round + top4.
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
7 fetches
3 Mountain
3 plateau.
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 thalia
1 tuktuk
1 Stingscourger
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Warchief
3 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleaders
1 krenko
2 Siege-Gang Commander
SB:
2 wear//tear
1 pithing needle
1 relic of progenitus
2 rest in peace
2 pyrokinesis
3 chalice of the void
1 stingscourger
3 thalia
I start playing thinking: man, 3 matrons and 3 warchiefs is just so wrong. But I had to cut them to make the deck fit 60 cards.
R1: ANT. G1 I win the roll. He casts ad nauseaum and burns himself to death. G1 he mull to 5 and keeps a no land hand. I play T1 lackey, chalice@0. T2 he plays a land and pass. I attack with lackey, drop SCG, cast piledriver. He can t stand the pressure and scoop.
1-0
R2: zombardment. G1 I win the roll and lead with T1 lackey. T2 I connect with lackey->SCG, cast another lackey and a vial. Best start in the world, lackey -> SGC is soo good. He casts goblin bombardment and turns the game around, he wipes my board with recurring bloodghasts, I scoop. G2 T1 lackey. This time he has no bombardment and I put too much pressure. G3 I start with a T1 vial, T2 piledriver. I get mana flooded and cannot stand his pressure and his recurring creatures.
I didn t see any GY hate. I should have mulligan more aggressively
1-1
R3: shardless bug. G1 T1 lackey. He has a slow hand with double vision. I put too much pressure with a chieftain and I win. G2. he gets down 3 shamans that make me loose 6 life per turn. 2 Goyfs keep my goblins in check and I loose. G3 I get T1 relic and a couple of turns later I play a rest in peace. He spends all his resources in dealing with the GY hate. I then start chaining ringleaders for the win.
2-1
R4 RUG delver. G1 he brings me down to 7 life but then I stabilize with double SGC and win from there. G2 I draw too many MWM so he cannot deal me that much damage. When gempal start incinerating his goyfs he scoops.
3-1
I missed the top4 for a tiny bit of standings...I hate standings.
After several months that I have been playing the same Rw list with 7 haste lords, no piledriver and no SCG this was a big difference from what I got used to. So let s do a summary of what I liked and what I didn t like:
positive:
-4th MWM. This guy is a house. stalls goyfs, pumps gempalm and gets in damage paired with chieftain. Awsome. 4 of them is the correct number
- Ok this is rather shocking I never though that I would actually say this but..... I felt good with 3 matrons. I used to play only 1 or 2 big spells (non-ringleader, 4cc or more) but playing with 3 (1 krenko +2 SGC) made me nearly never run out of gas. I did not miss the 4th matron, rather, I often liked that I did not "waste a turn" tutoring up for the game finisher but I just drew it naturally. I am far from suggesting people to drop their 4th matron but it is something I will put more testing into it.
Neutral:
- skirk prospector. I did not face any equipments, he was a +1 for gempalms.
- 4th gempalm. Gempalm is a solid card we all know that. I did get "gempalm flooded" a couple of time, but not to the point to loose games for it. I think the 4th gemplam is ok but not necessary.
- sharpsooter. He never showed up.
negative:
- only 4 haste lords and only 3 warchiefs is REALLY bad, the worst thing of the list. I felt so slow and unexplosive all games. I was always wishing for a haste lord that wasn t there... Seriously guys, this deck wants more haste lords. For the first time in months I didn t like krenko and I m sure the reason is the low number of haste lords. I understand now why some people don t like krenko. Assembling the combo haste + krenko is practically impossible and slow. Krenko feels slow. And it doesn t happen every game that you have a haste lord like when you play 7-8 of them. That's a pity.
- piledriver was meh-bad in every situations. it felt slow most of the time and win-more the other times. I remember why I decided to cut them all few months ago and I ll not play with them at the next turney.
- SGC is rather bad for costing 5 mana... he helped me win against RUG delver by stalling the game but he didn t win the game. One game against shardless bug he forced me to tick up vial @5. I think that a 5cc spell should win you the game nearly on the spot. Krenko + haste is just better than SGC in my opinion. I will play again with 7 haste lords and 2 krenko and drop SGC.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here. You seem to be listing the contents of the deck as an arguement for saying that Winstigator is good against everybody? If you're trying to make an arguement for why Winstigator is good vs combo, I don't think that Tarfire and Gempalm are good arguements.Quote:
Originally Posted by orcanmail
Warren Instigator is good vs combo, in the sense that they usually have less blockers than the typical opponent. But is it better than Thalia? Instigator tries to make you faster than them. Thalia tries to make them slower than you.
:eek: I'm not sure that really is the "theoretically best list of all".Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
The third (or first, depending on how you look at it) dual should be a Taiga for a green splash of TSH and Krosan Grip. Two plateau is enough make your white sources wasteland proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
Seems like your opinions on SGC varied thoughout the day. Are you sure that you didn't just convince yourself in hindsight that Krenko is just better?Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
Perhaps this is your own confirmation bias towards the likst you are already comfortable with showing here? You want to be on the haste/Krenko plan, so when the deck doesn't provide that as the default line of play you find the deck wanting. I'm not telling you what you should play, if you feel you are locked in to Krenko and 7 lords since that's what you feel most comfortable with, go with it, and good luck. I think that your deck choice will have several factors:Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
1. MWM will be better for you (because of goblin chieftain)
2. Piledriver will be essentially replaced by Krenko/Goblin Chieftain (since both are a mechnism to turn goblins in play into two points of damage at the opponent)
3. Mulligans will be harder since you will have more of a requirement to reach RR1 for your lords
4. Your list will be slightly more fragile/slower to mass removal, since you want to get several goblins on the board before Krenko starts being a big threat
Looking at this tournament, the match you lost was vs a graveyard based deck, and you had this conclusion:
I agree. One of the strengths of the goblins deck is how well it mulligans. By not mulliganning, you are making the deck less strong than it would otherwise be.Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
In addition to muliganning more aggressively, you also could have run a 4th GY hate piece in your SB. If you decide you are prepared to mull to 4 (I am) then your chances of seeing run a piece of GY hate is
With 4 GY hate: 7 cards (0.39), 6 cards (0.61), 5 cards (0.73), 4 cards (0.79)
With 3 GY Hate: 7 cards (0.32), 6 cards (0.50), 5 cards (0.62), 4 cards (0.69)
I make a joke of saying that all of the best cards in my deck are white, and it's true. Thalia and Rest in Peace are literally the best cards in my deck in the matchups where they are good. I regard the goblin shell as an incidental win condition that has removal, card advantage, tutoring and mana acceleration engines built into it.
True! but the printing of wear//tear made the green splash less necessary in my opinion. The main reason for splashing green is krosan grip not TSH anyway. However, I found myself boarding krosan grip most often for equipments, and some other times for top or plague. Wear//tear is also very good because you don t need to fetch for a white source to cast it against artifacts which makes it more easy to cast, less mana intensive and more wasteland proof. Split second is still HUGE but right now if you already splash white I don t think is needed to splash also green.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmerl
The first comment was rather sarcastic. I have read many times the argument pro-SGC being "...but it is so good to drop it from your T1 lackey". Well, that game against zombardment was an example where it was not enough anyway. Even in the best case scenario it failed to pull the win.Quote:
Seems like your opinions on SGC varied thoughout the day. Are you sure that you didn't just convince yourself in hindsight that Krenko is just better?
Man, you are absolutely right here. I am biased as we all are. I tried not to be but it is hard. I brougt to the tournament such a weird list so to open my mind to a new prospective of seeing things differently. It is true that most of the considerations after the tournament point at my "pet list". However, I don t think that I would have done that considerathion on matron #4 if I was totally closed minded on my "pet list".Quote:
Perhaps this is your own confirmation bias towards the likst you are already comfortable with showing here? You want to be on the haste/Krenko plan, so when the deck doesn't provide that as the default line of play you find the deck wanting. I'm not telling you what you should play, if you feel you are locked in to Krenko and 7 lords since that's what you feel most comfortable with, go with it, and good luck.
agreedQuote:
I think that your deck choice will have several factors:
1. MWM will be better for you (because of goblin chieftain)
2. Piledriver will be essentially replaced by Krenko/Goblin Chieftain (since both are a mechnism to turn goblins in play into two points of damage at the opponent)
I think you are exagerating here. I don t feel like I mulligan more playing chieftain. 1R from gempalm is much more of a problem than 1RR for haste lords. There are 4 caverns, 4 vials and 4 lackey.Quote:
3. Mulligans will be harder since you will have more of a requirement to reach RR1 for your lords
In princile it is harder on your mana base to play 7 lords but in practice I don t feel it.
I disagree. It doesn t matter if you tap krenko for generating 4 goblins or for generating 8 goblins. When you tap krenko you are likely gonna win anyway so you can keep some gas in your hand in case a topdeck sweeper clears the board. A board with on your side "only" chieftain + krenko is already a very good board, you probably don t need to cast other spells.Quote:
4. Your list will be slightly more fragile/slower to mass removal, since you want to get several goblins on the board before Krenko starts being a big threat
Same thing for chieftain. Mass removal is another good reason to play chieftain. Chieftain makes you feel like you don t have to cast all your hand because the haste and +1/+1 pump makes up for the less goblins. I know that this sounds like a paradox but chieftain CAN make you play more controllish and less "all in" if you need to. At the same time however it has the potential for some devastating "all in" if the game is in control.
lol, you have a pointQuote:
I make a joke of saying that all of the best cards in my deck are white, and it's true. Thalia and Rest in Peace are literally the best cards in my deck in the matchups where they are good. I regard the goblin shell as an incidental win condition that has removal, card advantage, tutoring and mana acceleration engines built into it.
I think that TSH is enough of a reason to splash green.Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
But isn't that because you are habituated to it? Even when you are running a list that can (and should) mulligan more aggressively, because you aren't used to that, you didn't do it in the games. Possibly you would have went 4-0 and made the cut if you had....Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
How do you magically go from having no creatures in play to tapping Krenko for 4 goblins? I agree that Krenko is AWESOME when tapping for 4 goblins. However he doesn't always give you that.Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
Let's look at it another way. In this example, you've deployed some goblins, and your opponent has just cast a sweeper, let's say a Terminus. You have NO goblins on the board. It takes you 2-3 turns to regenerate a critical mass of goblins with the Chieftain/Krenko plan. Whereas I just have to drop a SGC and suddenly I'm pressuring them again. I agree that Krenko + Chieftain is a better thing to have in play than SGC (unless you REALLY need removal), but it costs you more mana and more cards to achieve that boardstate.
Really? I would have thought the opposite was true. I don't tend to cast my whole hand (in my non-chieftain deck) unless I'm winning that turn. Chieftain after a sweeper is supremely unexciting by himself. Ringleader on the other hand.....Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
It could be that.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmerl
Sweeper example #1: I have in hand chieftan + krenko, you have SGC + piledriver:Quote:
How do you magically go from having no creatures in play to tapping Krenko for 4 goblins? I agree that Krenko is AWESOME when tapping for 4 goblins. However he doesn't always give you that.
Let's look at it another way. In this example, you've deployed some goblins, and your opponent has just cast a sweeper, let's say a Terminus. You have NO goblins on the board. It takes you 2-3 turns to regenerate a critical mass of goblins with the Chieftain/Krenko plan. Whereas I just have to drop a SGC and suddenly I'm pressuring them again. I agree that Krenko + Chieftain is a better thing to have in play than SGC (unless you REALLY need removal), but it costs you more mana and more cards to achieve that boardstate.
me:
T1 cast chieftain attack for 2 (2)
T2 cast krenko, tap, attack for 6 (8)
T3 tap krenko attack for 14 (22)
total output = 22
you:
T1 cast SGC pass (0)
T2 attack for 5, cast piledriver (5)
T3 attack for 14 (19)
total output = 19
For the same seven mana and 2 cards invested, I did: more damage since T1, mone damage by T2, more damage by T3 and the damage was spread on ALL my creatures.
Sweeper example #2:
Empty board. I have a chieftan + MWM in hand you have SGC + piledriver in hand.
me:
T1 cast chieftain, cast MWM attack for 6 (6)
T2 attack for 6 (12) win the game OR:
T3 attack for 6 (18)
total output = 18
you:
T1 cast SGC pass (0)
T2 attack for 5, cast piledriver (5)
T3 attack for 14 (19)
total output = 19
Haste is CRUCIAL after sweepers. And in this examples I am assuming that you have SGC + piledriver in hand, but since my chieftains replace the 4th gempalm and sharpshooter, try to add to the picture what you would do with a hand containing a sharpsooter or 4th gempalm... chieftain is very important for being fast.
You cannot compare chieftain to ringleader man.... try to compare chieftain with sharpsooter or the 4thgemplalm....Quote:
Chieftain after a sweeper is supremely unexciting by himself. Ringleader on the other hand.....
I feel this discussion and fimo's tournament report shows once again that a big part on the way to winning with our little green men and the striving for the best of all lists is also the confidence that we get from sporting the team that fits our style of play most.
To this point we already know the cards that are a no-no and really shouldn't be played. Which leaves us, in addition to the very core, with a set of Gobs that should win us at least 1/3 of a healthy tournament meta in almost any combination.
Another third is experience and practice with the deck we feel confident with. Previous to Strasbourg I attended 4 GPTs in two weeks, which was highest competitive tourney-density I've ever experienced. I could feel how this practice took me a long way. During the last one (80+ people) I felt the most confident and made the fewest mistakes. Only loosing to Belcher and TinFins I barely missed the top8.
The last third is what's interesting to talk about: the exact lists (plural!) that can be tuned to max potential. Those should perfect what they want to do and also keep an eye on the current meta.
So far with my general observation.
On Krenko/SGC:
I also believe that Krenko wants more than 4 hastelords. 6 at least. It may be true that you should drop him if you don't want that many lords. SGC has his cmc5 and can be a bit clunky but him not heavily affecting the board should be exceptional. Especially because he is not just a random dude you just throw on the board. Goblin's concept is to provide steady pressure with serveral smaller creatures/cards that form a real thread together. There is not a single card in our deck that wins on its own! We don't have Goyfs or Knights or Griselkuls. We have SCG + Chieftain = 11dmg or Warchief + Stinger + Piley = 9dmg + bounce for 5 mana. And it only works since we have the strongest refill engine in the game -> Matron and Ringleader. Which I'd strongly advise not to cut below 4.
I hope this more fundamental point of view helps :)
One great thing about Krenko is how good he is Before sweepers. If you know you're going to see Deed or Terminus then you should try to resolve Krenko first. That way he can build your board position and force the sweeper. Once the board is swept you still have a handful of cards and that's when you drop your Ringleaders. This works pretty beautifully.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmerl
This would be a valid post if siege-gang didn't have the sac: deal 2 damage ability, which helps it outpace in both situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
List I will be playing for scg somerset:
4 lackey
4 ringleader
4 matron
4 warchief
4 incenerator
4 mogg war marshal
3 piledriver
2 tarfire
1 chieftain
1 sharpshooter
1 stingscourger
1 sgc
1 krenko
4 aether vial
4 port
4 cavern
4 wasteland
10 mountain
sb
4 pyroblast
3 pyrokinesis
3 relic
4 cotv
1 tuktuk scrapper.
Wish me luck guys!
I approve of this list. Best of luck!Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinsplayer
ugh, 2-2ed the legacy challenge. Played terribly and punted against esperblade.(which was the control version, not esper deathblade.) Here are the matchups and how it went.
TES 1-2
Esper stoneblade 0-2
Lands 2-0
high tide 2-0
Just enough for one booster pack. Depressing.
Yeah, I agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamflogger
If you say so. If I think/know that my oppponent's going to play a sweeper, I'd rather have a SGC and open mana in play than a krenko, since it at least gives me another 4-6 damge to the dome in response to having all my goblins die. Plus it can interact with my opponents board much more efficiently.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by clashed
As said above, SGC has a higher damage output in both examples because of his activated ability. In addition, if the opponent has more removal like a lightning bolt or Swords to Plowshares, the Chieftain/Krenko hand turns to rubbish, while the SGC/PD hand is still pretty good. I think that the ability to play through disruption should be taken into account.Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
I don't want the hand that helps me win more. I want the hand that helps me win when I would otherwise lose.
I agree with the general important of haste. However, my list is still running Warchiefs, Ringleaders and Vial as well, all of which provide a form of haste.Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
p.s. Please don't take these posts criticising Krenko as an attack on you or your list. You are welcome to play a chieftain/krenko list, and you may well achieve better results with that list that you are more comfortable with and suits your playstyle better than a different list.
Have you tried our Karakas in yoru Krenko lists? Seems like it could be a good way of saving him from removal...
Hard luck there. I don't know if you want to discuss the results into the ground or just want to forget that the tournament ever happened, but the two lists you lost against, I have opinions on how your list could have been constructed more optimally for the matchups....Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinsplayer
vs TES: This is our worst matchup. 4 pieces of SB hate is insufficient. I also run 3 Thalia on top of the 4 CotV, and even then I feel like it's not *quite* enough (or fast enough) sometimes when they are on the play. Given you aren't white, I would look into 2-3 copies of Mindbreak Trap to aid you.
vs Esper Stoneblade: When I looked at your list in the first post (before I saw the tournament results) I went 'huh, no Prospector or TSH main. wonder if he's gonna complain about losing to esper stoneblade.'. And then this happens. Maybe Tarfire would be better off as these guys to make your list run a bit better in those matchups?
I don t get this. If you sac a goblin for 2 extra damage this turn it means that you are missing 3 damages next turn (1/1 goblin + PD trigger). Sacching goblins on T3 in the examples is irrelevant because you already reached their life total. Can you elaborate on this?Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmerl
After the sweeper there are many things that could be taken into acount. For example if you have the 5th land to cast SGC, if you have an additional goblin to cats, if the opponent plays an E. plague, if the opponent follows the sweeper with a 6/7 tarmogoyf. In all these cases it is better to have the krenko/chieftain rather than the SGC/PD plan
100% agree. That s why I play chieftain/krenko. I know that many people consider chieftan and krenko win more for some reason but I never understood why.Quote:
I don't want the hand that helps me win more. I want the hand that helps me win when I would otherwise lose.
I really appreciate your criticism. It helps me keeping on considering whether what I am doing is right. I am so keen in bringing up the chieftain and krenko concept all over again because I am sure that there are very few cards in goblins that are "core cards". People have had success playing with a lot of different variants. Goblins is an old archetype that had a lot of success in the past. This make people more incline to play what it used to be good rather than what they would play if goblins had no history. So if we agree that there is more than one decklist which can be equally powerfull why do 80% of the goblins players play with the same 50 years old list +/- minor changes? That list that I am referring to is the jim Davis/Max tietze list. Either that list is MUCH more powerful than the others or there is something strange here. And if we agree that their list is not MUCH more powerful than others, why do most people don t deviate from that? Or deviate only slightly from that? It cannot even be playstyle because I don t believe that such a large proportion of goblins players have the same playstyle.Quote:
p.s. Please don't take these posts criticising Krenko as an attack on you or your list. You are welcome to play a chieftain/krenko list, and you may well achieve better results with that list that you are more comfortable with and suits your playstyle better than a different list.
Long story short: I think that it is important to keep in mind that is a good idea to try out major changes with the list. it is not enough to swap a SGC for a krenko to test the power level of krenko. The list may need to undergo great changes and that may end up being actually a good idea! Don't be afraid to test a list with 0 piledrivers. Piledrivers were fantastic in a world where merfolk was a deck to beat. Piledriver was fantastic in a world where the most unfair creature your opponent could cheat into play was a (blue) progenitus. Now that merfolk have disappeared from this world and emrakul and griselbrand have joined the party it may be a good idea to even cut piledriver completely. Seriously, nobody gets hurt if you try. And at the same time wizard gave us a 2cc thorn of amenthys with legs to play with (thalia). Same thing for krenko. SGC has been then only decent playable "fatty" for a long time. Now that another goblin with high potential has been printed (krenko) people shouldn t be afraid to play with him. Even if optimizing him means to do great changes to the list (i.e. many haste lords), it may end up being a very good idea. I am saying this once again because I don t believe it is enough to test krenko with the SGC list +1 krenko - 1 SGC. No wonder that krenko doesn t outperform in such setup.
magicmerl: this post is not directed to you personally, it is a critic to the goblins community in general.
Yes I play 1 karakas and I have been liking it so far, thalia works great with that too.Quote:
Have you tried our Karakas in yoru Krenko lists? Seems like it could be a good way of saving him from removal...
P.S: I believe that the only core cards in a vial goblin lists are 4 lackey 4 vial and 4 ringleaders. All the rest is changeable.
I have to say one or two things about your posting:Quote:
Originally Posted by fimo
(1)
Making up scenarios is not very useful if you want to proof that the one or the other card is better. In the end it comes down to this:
You: "Krenko + Chieftain are better in scenarios A, B and C."
Me: "Okay, but SGC and PD are better in situations X, Y and Z."
I don't want to restrict discussions - you all know that - but it is very annoying to see people throwing scenarios at each other to proof themselves right. That's not getting us anywhere. You need to play cards and present the results. So my advice (not only directed at fimo would be: play some list with 0 SGCs, some number of Krenko and Chieftains and perform well. No, wait! The task is to perform better than average! My guess is that playing too many Chieftains is not the right thing to do, but whatever, proof me wrong - but with results, not with made-up scenarios.
(2)
I have to reject your cristicism that the goblin community does not try out something new. The very fact that there are 3 different, successful decklists is the proof that people are not playing 1 list over and over again. That's something you can't say about any other legacydeck. I can see that you are convinced about Krenko and Chieftain, but you should accept that there are people who arn't. I'm playing the deck for some 6-7 years now and I can say I have at least tested any playable card for the deck. That means I'm open to try new things out (which is not at least evident in the fact that I bring decklists to tournaments that are 100% build by other users of this forum). I mean, I could go into detail about Krenko and Chieftain and Piledrivers and SGCs, but in short it comes down to this:
I've never felt the urge to cut Piledriver below 2 copies.
I've had very hard times including a Chieftain in my deck (I'm entirely suire that 0 or 1 is the correct number).
And I am convinced that Krenko is not better than SGC (which I currently think is not an auto-include either), neither in a direct comparison, nor in any list tuned towards using the one or the other.
But thats just my humble opinion.
GoboLord, I don t want be misunderstood here let me put it another way. What I can see from looking at decklists on the net, including this forum, is that the large majority of goblin players are piloting the same list or very similar lists. BUT from my experience in playing all sort of goblin lists I can say that there is not a flat out best goblin list. GoboLord, your statistical analysis shows it clearly: jim Davis/Max Tietze variant is NOT the far most succesfull list and my playtesting confirms this. It is a solid solid list but it is by no means the best. Then back to my question: why is it that most people play that list or a very slight variation from it????
My criticism comes about from the observation that the most played a list is not the best list. I do not see the reason why most players would play that list if it is not the clear best.
I cannot explain this trend with my playtesting, in fact I found PD and SCG to be underperforming as compared to krenko and thalia and I had much more succes in tournaments with thalia/krenko. Is this my playstyle? Is it my meta? Very probable. But again: from a staitstical point of view there should be a part of the people that feel more confident with a type of list and another part of people that feel most confident with another if both were valid choices. Instead, the great majority plays 3-4 piledrivers and no krenko. The only explanation I can give to this trend is that since goblins is an old archetype and piledriver and SGC have been two undiscussed (and well deserved) staples for a long time they are seeing still tons of play now more for a nostalgic feeling than for a solid deserved place in today's metagame. But again I am not attacking anybody, I just want to discuss and listen to your point of view, I enjoy better these sort of discussions than the regular "how many SB pyrokinesis should I play?"