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I agree with everyone else, stacking tax effects with Thalia's pony doesn't mesh well with GSZ. I think that route might be more effective in something that has Aether Vial and/or runs the additional mana denial of Rishadan Port (like the green splash of Death and Taxes).
That makes a lot of sense.
What about replacing the 3 Wingmare with 3 Weathered Wayfarer and replacing the misty with a maze of ith? Also, is 4 Thalia the norm? or should I play 4 Wayfarer and 3 Thalia?
I know this deck used to play Wayfarer and Maze but people have moved away from it. Why was that? The Wayfarer is great early acting as basically a Dark Confidant grabbing wastes, karakas and maze which all can win games on their own. I guess he isn't great later in the game but can sometimes grab Canopy or just put a jitte or sword on it (anotehr reason why I don't plan on running batterskull).
In a meta where most decks are packing 4 ponder, 4 bs, and a lot of probes and digs, I would definitely be on the 4 thalia plan. That said, I have never really been impressed with Wayfarer, and if you're cutting the wingmares Id rather be gszing again instead of dinking around with Wayfarer.
Plenty of people still play maze, but in my experience I dont like it because maze really was only ever good at giving knight pseudo vigilance, where scyrb ranger does it better, and could be an awful draw as a land that doesn't produce mana, and takes up a spell slot.
I'm considered ditching Zenith, going back to a vial build and doubling up on the tax collectors with Wingmare.
In such a build, I'm really tempted to try Yisan, the Wandering Bard to replace the Zeniths, Libraries and PWs that are likely to be uncastable under double taxation. Once we untap with him, he's pure card advantage, and we have the card quality to make every activation worthwhile. First mom, DRS or Wayfarer; second Stoneforge or whichever bear is the most relevant; third Wingmare, Mindcensor or Knight. If the curve stops there, you can bounce him with Karakas and vial him right back in, potentially in the same turn. Rinse and repeat.
What's the advantage of this over Death and Taxes running 4 Thalia 3 Wingmare 4 Ports?Quote:
Originally Posted by Moroklumpen
Hey there guys, I have a list I'm going to be taking to GP Seattle in November. It is a vial list with a Living Wish package and I'd like some feedback.
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Mother of Runes
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Scryb Ranger
3x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Terravore
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Living Wish
1x Abrupt Decay
4x AEther Vial
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sylvan Library
4x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
4x Wasteland
2x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Nantuko Monastery
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas
SB:
1x Extirpate
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Tidehollow Sculler
1x Bojuka Bog
I think I need more Thoughtseize in the board and I think my creature package needs to be a bit more focused. Terravore has been amazing. Nantuko Monastery hasn't had its time to shine yet. I need to know where I want redundancy and where I need options, and I'd like some feedback on where cards should be spread. Any help is much appreciated. I'm thinking of putting Weathered Wayfarers back in, but I don't know how good chain-wastelanding is against a meta filled with Miracles and Omnitell. Batterskull has been in and out and I can't decide if I really like it or not.
I've recently become a big fan of just running Duress over Thoughtseize. Having never encountered a creature match where I wanted to bring in targeted discard, it's just simpler to hit the spells. Sometimes that 2 life matters.
I would always play thoughtseize. Sometimes it occurs that you want to discard a creature card (mostly Emrakul), the 2 life doesn't matter that much in the matchup where you want discard. Other question: in which matchup do you board the discard (only combo or control too)?
Largely combo, but that's also why I prefer Duress. Under what scenario would you want to hit an Emrakul with a Thoughtseize? It's just going to reshuffle, and even Griselbrand is dead in hand until they find whatever method of cheating it into play they need. Aim for the Show and Tell, Reanimate, or just a cantrip if it's OmniTell (you can also tag Omniscience here). If those aren't there, Emrakul wasn't a threat anyway. Tag a cantrip and keep them from sculpting a hand that actually does anything. You're not stopping them forever, you're slowing them down long enough to land Thalia, tag a nonbasic with Wasteland, or pass the turn back so your Deathrite Shaman is online. I can count the number of times where I have wanted to board in discard and actually hit a creature on a single hand. Even vs. Food Chain, where you are most likely to have a reasonable creature target, it's rare that you want to snag a Griffin instead of Food Chain itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bierbaron
The trade off is real. 2 life is 1 less storm count your opponent needs to Tendrils you out. It's a shock vs. Burn, where you have enough dead cards that siding in Duress isn't necessarily wrong whereas Thoughtseize is pretty terrible. In creature matchup, you don't need the discard at all. Just keep your removal and play the fairest game money can buy in this format.
Sometimes you get the chance to mess up their Brainstorm they played in response to your discard spell, when you let them discard a Emrakul they left in hand, the other two cards they wanted to protect are gone too. Though a good player won't give you that opportunity but this scenario happened to me more than once.
Vs. Reanimator it can be relevant if you can snag the creature immediately with Deathrite Shaman or another spell/effect.
Also the possibility to discard a boarded Dark Confidant vs. ANT/TES is good, an unanswered Confidant may run away with the game because they are more likely to draw gas and answers for your hate permanents. In my experience the 2 life doesn't matter that much in this matchup, if ANT/TES get's rollin', it will get you pretty sure, if you have the full 20 life or not.
Another example is 12-Post, Primeval Titan is hard to beat once it enters the battlefield, so better discard it. For Nic Fit goes the same, it's good discarding their bombs before they enter the battlefield and generate value.
Vs. Burn I can see the benefit of having Duress over Thoughtseize, but as long as Burn isn't a big metagame factor I would not play Duress over Thoughtseize. Also Thalia is huge against Burn, so get her into play vs. Burn is always my plan A.
Your opponent has 2 show and tells and one creature in hand. Have fun taking a show and tell since you can't take the creature and losing because you couldn't take half of their combo
IMO, if I turn 1 Thoughtseize and see 2 Show and Tells, I'm not winning that without a Thalia regardless of what I pick. That's just luck of the draw, and I have a hard time evaluating sideboard choices based on "well what if the opponent has two of X?" scenarios. I don't think Thoughtseize is wrong, I just prefer Duress more these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
The 12-post interaction is a legitimate concern, and one I overlooked because I've never had a match vs that deck. NicFit I'm less concerned because I probably wasn't siding in Thoughtseize anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Megadeus brought another example where Thoughtseize is better. It's a lucky draw from your opponent but it's your fault if you play cards that won't win in this situation over cards that would have mattered, that's not proper deckbuilding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambriel
It's not that Duress is bad card or not a valid choice, Thoughtseize is just overall better and let you win in situations where Duress won't. Why give up that extra win percentage Thoughtseize provides for a mere 2 life, that rarely matters in the format that legacy is?
Maybe it's just me being a numbers nerd, but I'm not at all confident that the added win % between say, storm or burn match ups where the 2 life might matter, and SnT match ups where they draw 2 SnT and you want to tag Emrakul with a Thoughtseize is mathematically in favor of Thoughtseize over Duress. Without evidence, all either of us have are anecdotes.
Duress is a legitimate choice for sure, especially in a metagame with a bunch of Burn (other SB-Cards are still better there). But I had some situations where it mattered to have Thoughtseize ready instead of Duress. Nevermind ;)
The better discussion for me is in which matchup should we bring in Thoughtseize/Discard? I'm pretty unsure if I should bring in the Thoughtseize in the control matchups (Miracles for example) or only in Combo Matchups.
Before GP Lille, I dropped the Discard from my SB entirely and ran more hate permanents (more Choke, Canonist, 3Sphere). I was fine with that for a while but after GP Lille I'm not sure about that plan anymore, so I decided to run Discard in the SB again.
For reference, my current Sideboard (I'm very fine with my MD atm, though it has 61 cards):
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge/Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
1 Council's Judgement
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere
2 Surgical Extraction (maybe 1/1 split with Nihil Spellbomb)
1 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
I'd personally only bring in point discard against combo decks, and maybe elves. Against miracles it isn't necessarily bad, especially turn 1 on the play to take a top, but it loses a lot of value once your opponent finds a top
Yeah, vs. Miracles I'd much rather have an extra threat. I usually board into things like extra Oozes and Teegs just to increase creature density. Anything that can pick up a sword and swing.
I think you're approaching the situation wrong. I've always viewed my SB as "what 2 or 3 archetypes am I looking to beat?" because trying to cater to 4+ archetypes means you'll struggle.
Be good at 2 or 3 decks rather than marginal against the field.
Do you want to handle combo? The overall archetype of "combo" or a specific deck? How many cards do you feel comfortable bringing in (1-3 cards or more? How much is enough?)?
What options exist? Which of those options give you solid % games 2 and/or 3? Start broad and progress into specifics.
Example: If you want to handle combo...are we talking storm? omni? reanimator? painter? oops all spells? food chain? high tide/solidarity? Some cards are applicable across the entire umbrella of combo decks.
Let's say we narrowed the "combo hate" down to storm, omni, and reanimator. Should we pack discard a la TS/Duress? Should we pack Surgical/RIP (vs reanimator RIP is great but that card is more or less a waste of space against the 2 other aforementioned decks). You may have personal experience boarding in particular cards. Decide on how many SB slots are enough. Know how much crap you want to board out.
Just looking at the previous comments here, if you're worried about burn AND storm then it would make sense to choose duress and/or inquisition instead of TS. If you're worried about Storm and Omni then you probably want to have TS instead. Narrow down what matchups you need help with, make a SB, narrow that shit down, articulate your situation and logic.
@Bierbaron: That SB is interesting. I can't stress the importance of not needing to satisfy all weaknesses. Magic is ultimately rocks-paper-scissors. You can only tune a SB to beat so much. Pray for the remaining matchups you didn't prepare your 75 or 76 list for. I don't understand the Trinisphere
My sideboard is mostly geared towards combo, a part of it adresses control/midrange strategies and the sweepers happen to be good vs. a variety of decks (D&T, Elves, TNN, Tokens, ...). I round it out with Catch-All cards like Council's Judgement and Pithing Needle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
Edit: The Trinisphere here is especially for the Omni-Tell, put it in the S&T and you won't be hindered at answering the omniscience. Another application is the Storm-Matchup, though 3 CC is slow, but it seems to me that the storm decks are taking more time to assemble the combo turn, which gives you the window to slam 3-Sphere every now and then. Sometimes I board it vs. Delver too, but that depends on my mood ^^
For me the 3-Sphere is a powerful card for 1 matchup and a supplement SB-card for other matchups too. So far I'm fine with it, maybe it changes with the next tournament ;)
Maybe it's important to know, that my maindeck is geared to put up more of a fight vs. Miracle and Delver decks, because I run the following in the maindeck (alongside the usual suspects):
2 Gaddock Teeg (which is just so good vs. a lot of matchups!)
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jitte, 1 SoFaI, 1 SoLaS (which won me so many games, I wonder why it doesn't get played more often!)
full 4 of Thalia, Deathrite, Mother and Knight
another unconventional choice may be the singleton Birds of Paradise I chose to run as the fifth mana dork and the absence of Scryb Ranger.
Maybe it's better to just post my list ;)
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
I actually like the Bird here given that you're running 3 equipment and it flies. Normally I'm a big fan of 1 Hierarch so you can GSZ for exalted to mess with combat math, but flying with a sword is no joke.