Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Lots of small reasons. Some of it is that I don't want to run the third Top, which I think is necessary to run S-GN. S-LoI synergizes better with Garruk-R and Elspeth-SC, which is relevant to my grindy plan. Another reason is that I don't want two 6-drop planeswalkers, and I prefer Elspeth over Sorin at 6 mana. I do admit that SGN is a playable card, but Elspeth has put in such a tremendous amount of work for me that I'd be very hard pressed to move away from her at this point. Like...I gave up SUN TITAN for this card. That is not something I say lightly. I also think that, as good as SGN is vs Miracles, SoI is slightly better just because he comes down so much earlier and races both Jace and Nahiri, removal not counted (Sorin 3+1, Nahiri 4+2, Sorin 4+1, hit Nahiri for 1, Nahiri 5+2, Sorin 5+1, hit Nahiri for 2, Nahiri 5+2, Sorin ult, kill+take Nahiri). Obviously the math changes a little if Snapcaster/Swords is involved, but I'm also assuming that you're not sitting there mindlessly plussing Sorin every turn and are actually playing cards too. SGN does do a bunch of damage to walkers with his -X, but he can whiff on killing them...especially higher loyalty ones like Jace and Nahiri. He's obviously insane vs Liliana of the Veil and other, lower loyalty walkers.
One final, minor reason for LoI over GN is that LoI comes in vs combo decks. Very frequently you end up on Veteran + E.Wit beatdown vs combo, and LoI fundamentally changes the clock that combo expects to have to work with by virtue of his emblem. One of the best ways to beat combo is to let them think that they have X number of turns to work with, and then surprise them with a sudden burst of damage that, even if not lethal, changes their plans from having X turns, to instead X-3 turns.
I agree with you on LoI. Actually been wondering if in a walker list Nissa, Voice of Zendikar is worth it as a 3 cmc combat walker, she puts 0 power on the board but does block.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
I agree with you on LoI. Actually been wondering if in a walker list Nissa, Voice of Zendikar is worth it.
Nissa is likely great vs Miracles, and questionable elsewhere. She loses to Abrupt Decay and Reality Smasher, which hurts badly since that makes up a large amount of the population of the format. Against Tundra decks, though, she comes down quick (potentially turn 2 after Vet/Therapy, although doing that is dangerous vs Tundra, obviously), and she threatens to draw a billion cards. Unfortunately, the life gain portion of her ult isn't terribly relevant vs Tundra.dec. With a Sorin emblem, though, she could spiral out of control much harder, I agree. Nissa VoZ and Sorin LoI is likely a powerful combination for a walker oriented build. Diabolic Intent is likely very good in this deck, as well, which opens up a lot of other interesting possibilities.
On the topic of the combo discussion a number of posts/pages back that I'd missed:
This is something that is near to the top of my priority list for Nic Fit between Columbus (possibly EE4 if I can find people that are going locally), and Eternal Weekend. There's a nice 4 month long gap between premier Legacy events, and I intend on using that time frame to /thoroughly/ examine the various <> builds, and to look harder into the various combos that we are capable of pulling off. Revisiting Thune is on that list, as is Birthing Pod shenanigans.
For right now, though, there's just flat out no time. As it is, I'm not going to be as well prepared as I want to be -- I think that my list will be solid, but I definitely haven't tested nearly enough. I'm going to jam as much as I can this week, but I'm to the point where I am basically locked in on GBW just out of time concerns. EW2016 is far enough out that I think we can get some of these other builds teased out and tested a bit.
On that topic, we definitely need lists of people going to Columbus and Prague, respectively, so that we can meet up and bird each other throughout the event.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Well, Sorin, the Lord, is sweet. Just played against Miracles and it was awesome. Tsunami was a little better. Opponent forced the first one......then I got 8 islands with the 2nd.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Nissa is likely great vs Miracles, and questionable elsewhere.
After thinking about it for a bit I agree. The PW curve is better off starting at 4. Thinking of SFM builds, I find the idea of SFM alongside Nahiri interesting, she's technically a combat walker and the free equip isn't nothing (even gets back equipment if it's destroyed), plus you're already supporting the WW for presumably Sigarda or Elspeth, Sun's Champion. This might be worthy of some more thought.
On the subject of losing to Reality Smasher though, do any PW's beat Reality Smasher? I can't think of anything other than the biggest baddest Elspeth, and that's too late in the game.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
LotV if they don't have any other creatures, but (from what I've seen this weekend) Reality Smasher is far from the first thing to hit the battlefield.
Aren't there other ways we can deal with it, like tap it down? Someone mentioned Thornscape Apprentice as a cheap, GSZ'able way to tap it down. If you worry about Endbringer you can always opt for the 2 mana, non-GSZ'able alternative I suppose. Or Glissa, which might be an absolute must vs. Eldrazi (but sucks everywhere else).
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
After thinking about it for a bit I agree. The PW curve is better off starting at 4. Thinking of SFM builds, I find the idea of SFM alongside Nahiri interesting, she's technically a combat walker and the free equip isn't nothing (even gets back equipment if it's destroyed), plus you're already supporting the WW for presumably Sigarda or Elspeth, Sun's Champion. This might be worthy of some more thought.
On the subject of losing to Reality Smasher though, do any PW's beat Reality Smasher? I can't think of anything other than the biggest baddest Elspeth, and that's too late in the game.
After smasher....Ob Nixillis? Maybe Gideon Jura
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
If you can get him down quickly enough, a flipped Garruk Relentless causes trouble for Smasher with his 1/1 Deathtouch wolves.
Sarkhan Vol can steal it, which is still pretty good, and you can potentially do sacrifice type things with Tower / Therapy / Pod.
Kiora the Crashing Wave and Tamiyo can keep it locked up indefinitely if there are no other threats on the board.
Ob Nix, Liliana, Gideon and Vraska, as mentioned already.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jbone2016
After smasher....Ob Nixillis? Maybe Gideon Jura
What about Apex Predator for surviving smashers? He goes to 6, makes a 3/3 DT blocker, Smasher tramples 2 putting Garruk to 4, you can +1 to 5 and have another blocker or -3 and kill another threat leaving Garruk at 1 (assuming he didn't take hits from another creature). 5GB is a lot and isn't possible until T3 with the right setup.
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Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TTX
I'll be playing in GP Columbus this weekend, so I thought I'd post my list to compare to your Scapefit.
I played Mina and Denn this past weekend. Though I didn't see them too often, the seemed really good in conjunction with Tireless Tracker. Not to mention they can blank Wasteland and allow for recasting of Mountains.
...
What do you guys think?
More Tireless Trackers? I somewhat hesitate because of the Pernicious Deeds that always perform better than expected.
Thanks for your list! It looks really solid and I like the Idea of Mina and Denn - Huntmaster is not what it used to be, so maybe I found my new 4-drop (the Troll also wants to come back though).
I played the following in my preparations:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Wood Elves
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Badlands
4 Taiga
1 Stomping Grounds
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
--- SB
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Disfigure
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
I dropped the wishboard to get a more effective overall sideboard plan and to get more space in the mainboard. I already wrote that this deck still has some issues, but 2 Scapeshift + 2 Intent with 3 Tops and fetchlands lets me usually find the combo when needed.
Issues:
- Reliably have enough stuff to sacrifice into Intent
- Be able to remove big threats early
- General lack of good spot-removal
I read Glissa, the Traitor somewhere - thats a nice idea to handle eldrazis. It even has some synergy with Engineered Explosives. Executioner's Capsule anyone? (Nah.. that's too cheesy, I know)
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emuhell
I've said it before and I'll say it again. And again. And again:
Glissa just says BGG: 3/3, First strike, deathtouch.
All else is flavor text.
You will not ever run enough artifacts to make use of her other ability. Especially since normally she'll just be a SB slot to specifically deal with Eldrazi. That's just The Danger Of Cool Stuff.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
I've said it before and I'll say it again. And again. And again.
Glissa just says BGG: 3/3, First strike, deathtouch.
All else is flavor text.
You will not ever run enough artifacts to make use of her in that way. Especially since normally she'll just be a SB slot to specifically deal with Eldrazi. That's just The Danger Of Cool Stuff.
And I say, she gets dismembered very fast by eldrazi pilots..no very smart as a 1 of creature imo
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
If they have it. And so does everything else up to Siege Rhino, so what's your point? They run 3 or so and have no way to dig for it. Also, you have CT to clear the way. So you should feel free to take your chances.
Edit: To compare: You have more chance of Glissa sticking vs. Eldrazi than Gaddock Teeg vs. ANT/TES and we find Teeg a perfectly fine answer to ANT/TES. I've never heard anybody go "but they board in Chain of Vapor and Abrupt Decay" (even though they run about 4 of those on average and have Brainstorms, Ponders, Preordains and when needed Infernal Tutors to look for them where Eldrazi does not).
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
If they have it. And so does everything else up to Siege Rhino, so what's your point? They run 3 or so and have no way to dig for it. Also, you have CT to clear the way. So you should feel free to take your chances.
Siege rhino is usually (up until the last week) played as a 4 of; Glissa as a 1 of (even though she is still tutorable). I'd play something else to be honest instead of her, maybe some kind of removal that doesn't get obliterated by dismember (and the usual TKS ETB ability).
E: infact we never play only 1 hate bear against storm. 2 canonists are a must WITH the teeg.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
E: infact we never play only 1 hate bear against storm. 2 canonists are a must WITH the teeg.
And they all share the same weakness :wink:.
Besides, the point wasn't how much of what we were running. Although I like Glissa specifically b/c she's green. Running 1 means you have 5 copies of her in your deck vs. the 7 copies of Canonist + Teeg + GSZ. We could do worse. Your point was "but she dies to removal" :wink:. Which absolutely is true but isn't a reason for me to not go for it. Heck, the fact that she dies to removal is exactly why she's such an effective sideboard card - GSZ BABY! 1 slot, 5 cards out of your 60 are SB cards post-board. The alternative is that you spend 5 slots to have the same chance of drawing a SB card. I'm not sure if that's where you want to be (at least for the Eldrazi MU).
I like to use GSZ as low hanging fruit :smile:.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
And they all share the same weakness :wink:.
Besides, the point wasn't how much of what we were running. Although I like Glissa specifically b/c she's green. Running 1 means you have 5 copies of her in your deck vs. the 7 copies of Canonist + Teeg + GSZ. We could do worse. Your point was "but she dies to removal" :wink:. Which absolutely is true but isn't a reason for me to not go for it. Heck, the fact that she dies to removal is exactly why she's such an effective sideboard card - GSZ BABY! 1 slot, 5 cards out of your 60 are SB cards post-board. The alternative is that you spend 5 slots for the same chance of drawing that SB card. I'm not sure if that's where you want to be.
That was not my only point. The fact that she is a singleton in the deck means that when she dies we are done for. Why would we run a plethora of hate bears against storm otherwise?
I'd rather play a better card overall in my sideboard: Glissa is a bad card, that pretty much sees play only vs eldrazi in some player's sideboard. My point is: since she is a bad card I think it is better to play a more flexible sideboard card that can be useful against other decks (and doesn't die to removal). Against storm we don't have that option, because everything gets bounced by chain of vapors.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Glissa isnt strictly an Eldrazi thing. She can come in against most other midrange decks (Dnt, Shardless, sometimes delver variants, blade). Plus it is 1 slot that turns the Gsz into a super effective card. Tarmogoyf dies to dismember and I promise you I do not cut those against eldrazi and Glissa is much better than that. The positive thing is with Ewit in the deck too you have multiple ways to rebuy glissa.
I think that Glissa plus EE could be a thing. More likely though she plays well with Baleful strix in some pod build maybe.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom4ik
Glissa isnt strictly an Eldrazi thing. She can come in against most other midrange decks (Dnt, Shardless, sometimes delver variants, blade). Plus it is 1 slot that turns the Gsz into a super effective card. Tarmogoyf dies to dismember and I promise you I do not cut those against eldrazi and Glissa is much better than that. The positive thing is with Ewit in the deck too you have multiple ways to rebuy glissa.
I think that Glissa plus EE could be a thing. More likely though she plays well with Baleful strix in some pod build maybe.
Infact I think that she is better in BUG (pod) builds for that very reason.
Goyf is a 2 mana threat that is the main win condition of many BUG decks, ran as a 4 of, it's not really the same thing is it? And I was talking about her "main" purpose against Eldrazi..the deck happens to play 3 dismembers on top of Jitte (sometimes), but that's my opinion.
Glissa against DnT? The deck that runs multiple Karakas..against Karakas.dec the only legend that usually stays in is Sigarda for obvious reasons, I always used to side out Meren against that deck but maybe it's just me. Although I think that siding out legend(s) against DnT is common sense, really.
I really think that we have better tools at our disposal. But that's the beauty of this archetype, so many cards that can be played! Even the bad ones :D
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
Infact I think that she is better in BUG (pod) builds for that very reason.
Goyf is a 2 mana threat that is the main win condition of many BUG decks, ran as a 4 of, it's not really the same thing is it? And I was talking about her "main" purpose against Eldrazi..the deck happens to play 3 dismembers on top of Jitte (sometimes), but that's my opinion.
Glissa against DnT? The deck that runs multiple Karakas..against Karakas.dec the only legend that usually stays in is Sigarda for obvious reasons, I always used to side out Meren against that deck but maybe it's just me. Although I think that siding out legend(s) against DnT is common sense, really.
I really think that we have better tools at our disposal. But that's the beauty of this archetype, so many cards that can be played! Even the bad ones :D
No, I also side out Meren (and Gitrog/Dromoka) vs DnT. They aren't running as many Karaki as they used to, I think....only 2-3 now, I believe? But even at a 2-of, if they get one, it's just unbelievably backbreaking for those three cards.
As far as Eldrazi goes, it's basically a cointoss matchup that's mostly draw-dependent on both sides. We have hands that line up very well against some of their hands. They have the nuts sometimes. Shit happens, on both sides of the table. Smasher is annoying, but they have no card advantage or filtration at all (Eye of Ugin activation is pretty unreasonable, as it turns out, even in a mono-Sol Land deck). We (I) also have things like Gitrog and Dromoka at the top end, and both of those cards will single-handedly thrash Eldrazi in a suitably Glissa-like fashion, but without the same drawbacks. Gitrog survives Dismember, as does Dromoka, and Gitrog will still kill whatever it was blocking. Dromoka is just unlikely to block in general, since it's a 10 point life swing every attack, and by the time Dromoka hits, they'll be out of gas anyway, so their Mimics will be stranded, etc.
Basically the goal vs Eldrazi is just to live long enough to outlast their initial onslaught. The deck doesn't really have staying power -- the white versions with displacer can go longer, for sure, but they're also much less common -- if we survive to the 7-8 mana mark (keep in mind that we're ACTIVELY looking for Veterans in this matchup), we should be fine. At that point Zenith for Dromoka/Gitrog are online, Elspeth 2.0 is online, and Deed@5 is online. The whole trick is living to this point -- block as much damage as you can and play as defensively as you can.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
If someone was playing Bug and looking for a creature in the board for eldrazi and midrange decks Glissa seems a fine choice.
I thought your point was that creatures that die to dismember are not effective against eldrazi? In fact goyf is great against them because it puts them on dismember or wait for smasher to start pushing damage. Jitte shouldnt be a factor, come on. Decay or deed that away or use one of the other answers the deck has to artifacts.
Ok, your right. DnT probably should not be lumped in with the other decks that Glissa could be brought in for. I honestly just forgot this deck doesnt play wasteland when I was typing those decks out.
In general the eldrazi match might be tougher for this deck than most others in the format. Wasteland can useful against them. As is Fow because you are just trying to blunt their initial onslaught of cards and let them naturally flood out or draw the lower curve. Hymn is good and we have CT but Chalice on 1 can slow that until we decay/deed it. Honestly Thragtusk might be the go to right now. It was always an effective Gsz against mircales as gsz and thrag going back to library from terminus was hard for them to deal with. 5 power is the magic number for trading with smasher.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tom4ik
If someone was playing Bug and looking for a creature in the board for eldrazi and midrange decks Glissa seems a fine choice.
I thought your point was that creatures that die to dismember are not effective against eldrazi? In fact goyf is great against them because it puts them on dismember or wait for smasher to start pushing damage. Jitte shouldnt be a factor, come on. Decay or deed that away or use one of the other answers the deck has to artifacts.
Ok, your right. DnT probably should not be lumped in with the other decks that Glissa could be brought in for. I honestly just forgot this deck doesnt play wasteland when I was typing those decks out.
In general the eldrazi match might be tougher for this deck than most others in the format. Wasteland can useful against them. As is Fow because you are just trying to blunt their initial onslaught of cards and let them naturally flood out or draw the lower curve. Hymn is good and we have CT but Chalice on 1 can slow that until we decay/deed it. Honestly Thragtusk might be the go to right now. It was always an effective Gsz against mircales as gsz and thrag going back to library from terminus was hard for them to deal with. 5 power is the magic number for trading with smasher.
My point is that Goyf is your win condition (4 copies in the deck, not 1) so it is expected that the opponent brings even more removal after G1, right? And when they dismember 1...you just drop another one. With glissa you have to hope they don't have Karakas or Dismember, and if they kill her you have to spend resources (and more importantly time, a resource that, as remembered above, is essentially the key of the match up) to bring her back. Against a deck that basically hopes to win asap, it doesn't seem THE optimal strategy.
I'm not saying that "whoever runs Glissa is dumb and needs to die in a fire", so there is no malice in my posts, but even an additional deluge or path from the sb are better against them (and many more decks), IMHO.
@Arian: perfect analysis, as always. I'm testing your version on xMage right now. Like it happened for Miracles, we should call it "Legends Nic-Fit" :P
