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So what does it come in against?
- Burn obviously
- Basically all Delver, where it ranges from pretty good (UR Delver) to pretty meh but you still play it (BUG Delver)
- Eldrazi just for the lifelink
- Lands (seems pretty good here)
- Jund (seems very good here, though it can't get past a Goyf)
That seems like more than enough to justify a 1-of.
Burn, Lands, and Jund is worth it, those are some pretty shit matchups for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Heh I have found Lands to be a bit soft to maindeck Blood Moons...
But yeah Burn and Jund for sure are matchups I hate to see. The downside is that this card isn't as good as Kor Firewalker vs Burn, upside is that it comes in far more often. And it's a human.
With the lands... It can be, but a friend of mine really likes Molten Vortex to back up the Stage/Depths, he's not a fan of Punishing Fire. Not a bad matchup, but it does make it a little more interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I actually find lands to be a good match up, especially post-board, but that's just me.
Quick question for anyone willing to answer: what is cataclysm good against? Yes I know it's good vs miracles and lands and the obvious, but what makes it better than armageddon? What matchups does it come in where armageddon doesn't, cause armageddon is strictly better in those matchups.
Cataclysm hits planeswalkers for starters
It's awesome vs. Enchantress.
Yes, I'm aware of that. What matchups is it better in though? Do we board it in vs Shardless for example? What about Deathblade (though that is on severe decline currently). What matchups would I rather have Cataclysm than Armageddon? Would Aggro Loam be one? The mirror? Elves? I'm trying to think of matchups where I don't want Armageddon but would want Cataclysm and want to understand why I want it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fry
Playing those cards we are not trying to find a great bomb against Lands or Miracles. This is not the only thing. Playing them we're trying to keep our opponents playing fair, we need this kind of reset button sometimes, so it's crucial that we can have the chance to clean the board, not only manabases. So Cataclysm it's always better. I prefer killing opponent's planeswalkers or keep Mentor/Entreat under control than destroy only one more mana for both players that could even be worse for me.
I t8'd our local GPT for Columbus with this today. I don't know how many people were there, 30 something. It was 6 rounds.
4 Sfm
4 Thalia
4 Mom
3 Recruiter
2 Magus
3 Flickerwisp
3 Revoker
1 Wingmare
1 Mangara
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Bskull / 1 Jitte / 1 Sofi
4 Vial 4 Stp
3 Cavern
5 Fetch
4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Plains
3 Karakas
1 Plateau
SB:
2 RIP
1 Path to Exile
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Containment Priest
1 Fiendslayer Paladin
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Leonin Relic Warder
r1 Merfolk 2-0 (1-0)
G1 5 lands SfM Revoker. Opponent is a friend and he always plays Fish. One of those lands is a Cavern so I know SfM is resolving - which means it's actually an easy keep and a SoFi wrecks him.
G2 Another SfM game, get an early Jitte on a Crusader to wipe his board, then Revoker Jitte because he has his own Jitte and a TNN. Outrace him.
r2 Infect 2-0 (2-1)
G1 Another friend who I play against constantly, not thrilled to be playing against Infect but I like my opening hand, especially on the play - t1 StP his Elf, t2 Jitte, t3 Wingmare
G2 He t2 Blighted Agent, I t2 Canonist. He attacks+Invigorate and I take 5. Next turn Invigorate and attacks again and I have no StP to punish him.
G3 He has a slow start with just Hierarch into Elf, with an Inkmoth in play while I have a live Vial. I Flicker my Fiend Hunter to eat the Elf and have a blocker for Inkmoth. Eventually Vial in Relic Warder for the Inkmoth, Recruiter for Cunning Sparkmage to seal the game up.
r3 Bug Delver 0-2 (2-1)
G1 Just get tempo'd out with Delver + Dark Confidant
G2 I keep a Karakas/Wasteland/Sfm/Sfm/StP/Stp...something else, I think it was Jitte or Fiendslayer Paladin? Anyway, that's a really close keep I think, because Stoneforge and Stp are so good, but if my Karakas gets Wastelanded I might just lose if I don't draw a white source. Which is what happened.
So I led with Karakas - I'm wonder what other people think the right play is there. I feel like if I lead with Wasteland I'm signalling 'I don't have many colored sources' since there's no other reason to pass without keeping StP up. By leading with Karakas I both have that StP for Delver/DRS and feel like it's less obvious that I'm short on white. It never ended up mattering because my next land was literally like 10 cards down. If I had led with Wasteland I could cast a SfM on t2 but it wouldn't have mattered at all, since he definitely wastes the Karakas then.
r4 Grixis Delver 1-1-1 (2-1-1)
G1 He's on the play and has Delver + Pyro + Probe + Cabal Therapy, wrecks my hand.
G2 Very long game, eventually I have Magus and Fiendslayer Paladin out vs his 2x DRS + Strix.
At a certain point early in the game he Pithing Needled, while I had a Vial on 3 and a SoFI in play but only one land. I Vial'd in Fiendslayer, and he had to name SoFI and not Vial because otherwise Fiendslayer + SoFI just wins, but my Vial on 3 was *super* important since I had 4 3 drops in my hand and one land. Fiendslayer won the game for me for sure, being able to tutor up a lifelink creature that can't be touched by removal was great.
Game took a long time and we barely played g3, but I think I was decently ahead with a Magus/SfM in play + a Recruiter/StP in hand vs his DRS/DRS/Sulfur Elemental and no DRS food.
r5 Dark Maverick 2-1 (3-1-1)
G1 SfM get a Jitte online very quickly and just wipe anything he plays
G2 SfM get a Jitte in play very quickly, but he has removal for the few creatures I ever draw and eventually he hooks a SoFI up to a Birds of Paradise and wins
G3 Have a strong Wasteland/Vial-based game and eventually Mirran Crusader + equipment
r6 BUG Delver 2-0 (4-1-1)
G1 He plays a t1 Delver, I play a t1 Mom into t2 Vial, his Delver doesn't flip for a while, eventually I get Magus out with a bunch of Moms, and a Vial + Flickerwisp for his Delvers. He can't beat Magus.
G2 I have a relatively slow hand, he Hymns me twice and I don't even mind because it's way better than him playing creatures. He never plays a creature, t4 I hardcast Magus and he's just dead since he can't immediately answer it.
T8 Monored Sneak/Breech 1-2
This is a good matchup and I've actually never lost to the guy so he was pretty happy to finally beat me. Still, Sneak decks can do scary things with the right hands, which is what happened g3.
G1 He mulligans, has a t2 Blood Moon that didn't really matter and I had enough of a clock + enough disruption with Revoker locking down double Lotus Petal + a Thalia
G2 He Blood Moons on t2 but I have already fetched Plains, eventually have a Thalia/Mom/Revoker-on-Sneak in play. He has 4 lands and a Petal, SSGs into Inferno Titan - I have a StP, but he still gets the trigger and does one to each. I get to keep one of the 3 by using Mom, and decide to protect my Thalia as opponent doesn't have a Sneak in play and Thalia taxes more broadly (hits Sneak+Breech+Song). Plus Revoker is marginally easier to kill since it also gets hit by artifact destruction.
This was a mistake as he gets out a Sneak and Sneaks in Emrakul/Wurmcoil. I don't think I woulda won anyway because he was a turn or two away from hardcasting a Wurmcoil that I couldn't deal with and I wasn't drawing into much IIRC, but it was still a mistake since I didn't have enough of a clock to ensure that he couldn't just hit his land drops and play stuff past Thalia anyway. I usually win this match with mana denial since he needs big mana to do anything but with a Blood Moon in play future Wastelands/Ports weren't going to contribute and I needed to recognize that the mana denial plan was already dead.
G3 I t1 Vial, he Shattering Sprees it. Get Thalia out and start Porting him, cast another Vial. On his t4 I port his Tomb so he has only 2 Mountains for mana, I have a Thalia and I'm feeling relatively fine about the board, especially with Recruiter+Fiend Hunter in my hand.
He plays City of Traitors, Seething Song, Seething Song, Sneak Attack, Worldspine Wurm, attacks for 15 and leaves 15 power on board. Not gonna beat that.
The rest of the top 8 was Bug Delver (my loss), BUG Delver, UR Delver, TES, Infect, Miracles and BUG/UR split the finals. Disappointing to lose to double Seething Song - I did want another bye for Columbus - but I didn't play perfectly and it's possible I threw that 2nd game, at the very least I probably didn't give myself the best shot to win.
Fiendslayer Paladin came in a lot but I only actually played him vs Grixis Delver, where he was great, actually won me the game. I am definitely keeping him for the time being. I have yet to Faerie Macabre anyone, but I've come close and still like it in theory.
Hi,
I saw this card: Banisher Priest
Is this card better than Fiend Hunter? I feel like 1 more power but 1 less toughness is a worthy trade in a tempo deck but maybe I'm missing something.
I also saw this card: Silverblade Paladin
I compare this to Mirran Crusader. It doesn't have the protection but giving doublestrike to an equipped creature or a batterskull germ token seems really good...
Idk, just some ideas...
Hiya, Leg. Some thoughts on your thoughts...
Banisher Priest
Fiend Hunter
The extra toughness seems to be pretty important for me. It is a control deck after all. Seriously, there are a lot of pertinent x/1 dudes about. Snapcaster, Confidant, most elves, etc. Half the time it is the equipment doing the heavy lifting anyway.
Also, there is a subtle difference in the wording of these cards. Have another look. You can occasionally manage a nifty 2-1 with this guy and a Flickerwisp if you can get the timing right off a Vial. Does not work with Banisher Priest though.
Finally, stick with Mirran Crusader. The protection is everything. Watch some videos to see just how often it is a bigger True-Name Nemesis.
Shardless player here. Can confirm, Mirran Crusader is a beast amongst men, even in non bg/x matchups.
Hi, long time lurker here and finally decided to throw my two cents in the conversation.
I have been playing Death and Taxes now for four years. I started with mono W, but after seeing Bahra playing WR version on twitch I fell in love.
I have gotten variable results in my tournaments with the deck. We have a very strong legacy community in my home city and you are able to play 8 to 12 man tournaments pretty much every week.
Until the few weeks I ran the stock list of WR with seven fetches, two plateaus, three plains and one Cavern of Souls. Two recruiters and three maguses were on my list also. With this configuration I went with 11-4-5 record in GP London Legacy side events (two of those draws were ID:s as we didn't have enough time to play the round before the registration on the next 4 round event ended).
Now I run a bit different configuration:
4x mom
4x thalia
3x SFM
2x Phyrexian revoker
3x magus of the mon
3x imperial recruiter
3x flickerwisp
1x Mirran crusader
1x Mangara
1x Fiend Hunter
1x Pia and Kirran Nalaar
4x STP
4x Vial
1x Sword of fire and ice
1x Jitte
6x Fetch land
4x wasteland
4x rishadan port
3x Karakas
3x Plains
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Plateau
SIDE
3x RIP
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Kor Firewalker
2x Sudden Demise
1x Pithing needle
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Warping Wail
1x Fireslinger
1x Containment Priest
1x Leonin Relic-Wardener
With this I went 4-0 on last Saturdays Legacy with 9 players.
I played against Burn, RUG Delver, Agro Loam and Dradge.
I love the Nalaar couple. It is always a big threat when they hit the battle field. I have yet to have any problem of getting RR on turn 4. Also in one game me and my opponent played the wasteland game and my vial at 4 with Karakas as my only land was just too much with the card for my opponent.
I dropped the batterskull as I didn't find it that useful in my deck. The card it self is crazy powerful, but against bad MUs I found it lack luster. It would be great against burn, but it needs active Mom coupled with SFM to be viable. If you fetch it with your SFM and it gets burned, you are left with a dead card basically. Agains BUG and other delver decks I think the WR version is already ahead. We don't need any one powerful card to beat them. And as I have 3 recruiters and only not fetchable creatures are Flickerwisps I have found that the wins are just an eventuality waiting to happen, as I have the weapons on many of the situations my opponent can throw at me.
I am preparing for GP Prague so any feedback you can give is welcomed. I try to post my result with this config as I win more tournaments :cool:
EDIT: The last MU was dredge, not Eldrazi as I first remembered.
EDIT:: I have been thinking about the Batterskull with some more thought. At first it was only a experiment to see if I miss the BS. Now thinking back, I see more and more reasons to replace it with third recruiter. When you have no card advantage or filtering, the need for the powerful cards go up. It is crucial to draw the powerhouses and if you have the resource to find them even better (now talking about SFM). But as the tutoring from the more diverse pool come more prominent with Imperial Recruiters the need for the one powerful card goes down as you are able to find a suitable answer in most of the situations. You don't need to find the power card and hope it carries you for the win, as you can search the silver bullet (like magus of the moon, Pia and Kirran Nalaar, phyrexian revoker etc.) for the situation and be assured that you make the game more advantageous for you. I think that Batterskull rarely turns any MU clearly favorable to us. It is a very powerful card, but it does not hinder your opponent for achieving a win over you in most of the situations. Also the setup for the equipment is hard, as you have a 1 in 60 to have it in your hand without your opponent knowing and not being able to prepare for it.
Dropping it is the hard part, I took that dive about a year ago and have never regretted it, though I still have it in my sideboard for burn and miracles. I dropped it out of the main because i felt it was distraction, Sword and Jitte are almost always better (you can cast them without SFM). I would always get BS because its so hard to deal with when it gets in play, I was often punished with the death of SFM and a dead card in hand until I got 5-6 lands in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by freakreature
I think people probably underrate the number of times that Batterskull was win-more for them. Plus, 10% of your hands are 6 card + Bskull semi-mulligans.
I do like the free wins it can get you vs Burn/Delver g1. I think the real value usually comes from its mana efficiency compared to the other equipment - if you cheat it into play then you've either spent 2 (if SfM came in via Vial) or at most 4 mana for a threat and don't have to hold back from Porting/Wastelanding while you're doing it. But the actual threat is pretty mediocre outside of pure races since it does nothing but provide a life swing / decent blocker. Fetching Bskull too often is a pretty common mistake for D+T players. I've had tons of games where someone comes at me with a Bskull turn after turn and I just ignore it since our life totals don't really matter.
I've also been considering moving the Skull to the SB and going up to 4 Recruiters. My real issue is - I think 2 equipment 4 SfM is awkward, but I also feel like t2 SfM for Jitte vs certain decks (Elves, Infect, Mirror, etc.) is so key that I am still a little scared to go to 3.
But Recruiter is the card I find myself wanting to see the most after t1 Vial, so why not play 4? It's a little clunky in multiples, but so are all your other best cards (Vial, Thalia.) Post-board is where it shines I think, since it increases your chances of hitting your targeted SB answers.
While going up to 4 Recruiters main I could see trying to squeeze another one-of in the main:
4 Sfm
4 Thalia
4 Mom
4 Recruiter
2 Magus
3 Flickerwisp
2 Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wingmare
1 Mangara
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Jitte / 1 Sofi
4 Vial 4 Stp
3 Cavern
5 Fetch
4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Plains
3 Karakas
1 Plateau
SB:
2 RIP
1 Path to Exile
1 Batterskull
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Containment Priest
1 Fiendslayer Paladin
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Pia/Kiran
freakreature, I like your list, though I think only 3 flyers is a little risky vs Delver decks. I would try and find room for a Wingmare, so at least you have a fetchable 4th. I like Pia/Kiran a lot, though I feel that maindecking them is similar to maindecking Batterskull. It's very good when it's good, but it has a decent chance at getting stuck in your hand vs some matchups, and it's better as a grind-them-out post-SB card than it is in faster g1s.
I have thought about the delver machups. I think that my deck is ahead even without the fliers. Three Flickerwisps and four STP is enough to take down their delvers. Also Pia Kiran Nalaar will hinder their fliers in the end game and also can shoot delvers down with the ability. Also Nalaars are quite a nice card against the miracles. I tried the wingmare on my previous list and didn't quite like it. It never felt that it did enough for the slot it fit that other cards already did better.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I Just went 3-1 on 13 player legacy event. I fought against Dredge, Infect, Lands and Jund. My list is above if you want to look at it.
R1 G1 Infect 2-1
I won the dice and went ahead with the hand with vial, thalia, revoker an some three drops. I play vial and pass. He play LED and pass. I play revoker and the game was pretty much over as he had relied on the LED to discard his hand. Thalia and wasteland on their city of brass sealed the deal.
G2 he got turn two 6 zombies.
G3 turn two RIP was too much for him.
R2 G1 Infect won the dice 2-1
For some reason I remembered that he played BUG but was corrected as he played blighted agent. I win the game one with STPs and online Jitte.
G2. He got agent online, I had canonist into fireslinger into magus of the moon, but he had invigorate on the third and vines of the vast wood on the third turns for the agent.
G3 I had wastelands STP and active Jitte on the magus of the moon and the game was over at that point.
This MU is very tricky in my opinion and on these games also it came to winning the dice.
R3 G1 Lands. 1-2
I lost the roll and he got to play first. I play turn 1 vial into turn 2 Jitte and vial in the mom. I hit with the Jitte once with the mom and he blocks with the monster. I had no two drops in my hand He swings with the token and I take 2 life from Jitte. I went to two. I go to vial on 3 and pass. On his attack I vial in flickerwisp and he decays my vial. He P.fires my visp and makes a new token. I had a magus of the moon in my hand, but he had active grove with P.fire, so it was not enough.
G2 I won with multiple maguses, mirran crusader and wastelands. He couldn't keep up wit my vials.
G3 was a hard one and it all came down on should I keep STP mana open or play magus of the moon and hope he doesn't have P.fire. I put jitte on the play with my SFM and he decays my vial on 2 counters. He had exploration with combo, wasteland and loam and he wasted my red source. After that there was nothing to do. In my hand was two recruiters I couldn't play.
R4 G1 Jund 2-0
I got a fast magus of the moon with thalia equipped with Jitte.
G2 I wasted his lands and got Jitte active on thalia after he used two of his lighting bolts on my magus of the moon and Mirran crusader. After that he didn't find anything to answer my board.
All in all a very good result. My loss to the lands was a bummer as I think it's about 50-50 or even 60-40 on my build. Again if I would have won on the die roll it would have been a much smoother ride.
Again back to the Batterskull, I don't see its uses in the SB either. Agains burn, you still need to have a active mother of runes beside your SFM to get the BS to work. In my opinion it's too risky to have a possible tempo loss and a dead card in your hand for 4-5 turns. Jitte is always my go to equipment on burn MUs as you can play it quick and force them to use their burn on your thalias and such so you wont get Jitte active. With BS they only need to get rid of SFM to not to bother with other creatures.
Batterskull is primarily an attrition card, not just a way to spike wins against Burn, though it can do that too. Post-board it's better against Miracles / BG decks since you don't have the risk of it getting Smashed and can eventually flicker it / bounce it / hook it up to something else. Batterskull also turns SfM into two creatures, one of which isn't going away and sometimes that's what you're looking to do. But I do think that Imperial Taxes might not need that effect main since Recruiters help with going wide / not running out of threats.
It's been ages since I thought about updating my deck. How out of date am I with my current build? I'm guessing a few years of brainstorming at least.
Lands: 23
7x Plains
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Eiganjo Castle (Because I'm lacking 2 portals 1 plains and haven't gotten around to buying any for ages.)
Creatures: 27
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Serra Avenger
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
2x Vryn Wingmare
2x Mangara of Corondor
2x Fiend Hunter
Other:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Ĉether Vial
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull
Sideboard:
3x Rest in Peace
3x Spirit of the Labyrinth
2x Wilt-leaf Liege
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Cataclysm
1x Phyrexian Revoker
Edit: I'm pretty sure the fiend hunters should be in the side with 2 spirits main. I may have goofed with packing the deck away last time I played.
A couple of weeks ago I top 8'ed at our monthly Legacy league with my list known by all of you. I think we were 34 players aproximately, and now I'm qualified for the final league. I was waiting for the lists on tcdecks to post it but I think they'll be there soon. I can say it was the Miracles party with 3 of them doing top 4 and I think Togores finally won with Lossett's Nahiri Miracles. I lost to one Miracles deck on top (More than an hour of round thanks to Mangara, who held me first game) and won another on swiss pretty easy with no more than 15 minutes.
On the other hand last week I changed a bit the list:
+2 x Serra Avenger
-2 x Mangara of Corondor
-1 x Cavern of Souls
+1 x Plains
I was trying to test some ideas trying to understand what's better for my metagame. In addition, I wanted to test a better list thinking on MKM Series here in Madrid in a couple of months, trying to improve even more the Delver matchup and of course Shardless and Eldrazi as well.
So last week I played at my LGS (4-1) with the new list, losing only against Elves.
And finally, yesterday I played another event winning it. 3-1-0 winning 2 Infect decks and UWR Delver, drawing second round against Esper Stoneblade. Crappy matchups for us. Even today I keep asking myself how I won it.
Overall, with those changes I've played 23 rounds (20-1-2). Pretty good results. I think I'll keep testing it.