All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

It's hilarious that peeps forget about the deckbuilding restrictions of Ad Nauseam and that all those are gone the moment Bargain or Desire would be unbanned. Desire would be a Maindeck 4-off and is an engine completely Independent from your life total. A stormcount of 6 is more than enough in a deck with Infernals and Wishes.

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I agree, though some part of me would want to extend the deck to include some amount of countermagic like flusterstorm or force, which removes the likelihood of my playing playsets of infernal/BW

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Desire is so ridiculously powerful that even as a 1 of in Vintage it is busted. I can't imagine what the format would be like if it were legal as a 4 of.

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It's not even that good in vintage right now as a 1 of. Few successful decks are willing to support it, even with the maindeck hurkyl's recalls and infinite fast artifact mana afforded to that format

If it was unrestricted it however...

Vintage is also a format where Mental Misstep is legal so ritual based combo doesnt seem quite as powerful.

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

It's not even that good in vintage right now as a 1 of. Few successful decks are willing to support it, even with the maindeck hurkyl's recalls and infinite fast artifact mana afforded to that format

If it was unrestricted it however...

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The reason it's bad is because MUD is so much better.

MUD would take a crap on the Legacy meta easy.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

The reason it's bad is because MUD is so much better.

MUD would take a crap on the Legacy meta easy.

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Ah yes, between MUD and Misstep, it seems rough to be a ritual based storm deck.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

The reason it's bad is because MUD is so much better.

MUD would take a crap on the Legacy meta easy.

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Yeah, talk about format warping. MUD does ridiculous things to the Vintage meta.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Ah yes, between MUD and Misstep, it seems rough to be a ritual based storm deck.

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Yep. But just because it's bad in Vintage doesn't make it overpowered. It just goes to show how hilariously high the power level is in Vintage.

Flash is also barely used in Vintage: must be AWFUL in Legacy! :troll:

I do think Earthcraft has potential for unbanning. Nic Fit, Elves, and Enchantress are the decks that spring to mind when I think about who would benefit, and I don't think it would find room in Elves. I don't play Elves, but from spending plenty of time on the other side of the table, they probably wouldn't benefit from being able to use Cradle more than they do now, at least not at the cost of being worse at chaining Elves into Natural Order or just shitting out creatures and beating you down. SquirrelCraft is probably unplayable at this stage in Legacy's development. Its main selling points are the selling points of Elves, and Elves does all of those things better, especially because all of its combo pieces are good on their own, whereas Squirrel Nest sucks. There are alternatives, but the deck functions a lot like Modern's Splinter Twin decks, and those haven't seen a Legacy port despite being in better colors, killing the turn they go off, and not leaving a bunch of tapped creatures as your only defense. The effect of Earthcraft in the other two decks could potentially be both interesting and healthy, especially since both are intrinsically strong against he who must not be True-Named.

The other cards that have been mentioned for unbanning are clearly trolls. Unbanned Desire (as Lemnear pointed out) would make for an exceedingly fast and consistent combo deck that would have no problem winning the game on turn 3 or 4 with ample protection without the A+B limitation or the need to spend life like ANT. Storm counts of even 4 or 5 would probably be sufficient to set up Desire (effectively) into Desire, which basically wins on the spot.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Yep. But just because it's bad in Vintage doesn't make it overpowered. It just goes to show how hilariously high the power level is in Vintage.

Flash is also barely used in Vintage: must be AWFUL in Legacy! :troll:

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And by bad you mean so broken it had to be restricted. Got it...

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Originally Posted by Technics

And by bad you mean so broken it had to be restricted. Got it...

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The difference is that 1 is bad 4 are broken.. This applies to any format

Unbanned Goblin Recruiter would be interesting.

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Originally Posted by prateta

Unbanned Goblin Recruiter would be interesting.

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Its powerlevel is not as problematic ad its impact on time when stacking your deck

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Originally Posted by apple713

Its powerlevel is not as problematic ad its impact on time when stacking your deck

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Just how much time do you reckon the game has left after a Goblin deck with Cavern of Souls and Aether Vial gets done stacking the deck?
I'm all about the 'fuck you, kill me' strategy, because decks fizzle all the time. However, there are really very few worthwhile Recruiter piles where they don't just sculpt an instant or next turn win with insane redundancy. Now that counterspells need not apply because Cavern + Vial? I *LOVE* Goblins. But no.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

How anyone could think that Goblin Recruiter was a good card to even design in the first place, let alone unban, boggles the mind.

It's a fine card, Dwarven Recruiter is not in any way broke and it's in effect the same card. When it was printed, the goblin was fine. Then Onslaught came along...

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

Mind's desire is... harder to evaluate. UU is certainly difficult but not unmanageable (might require LED if not using high tide). High tide seems like a natural shell although time spiral might end up being better there. As a burning wish target, you'll need high bomb density main and sufficient storm count to really take off with it, maybe something like 3x tendrils 4x Desire 2x past in flames? I'm not sure if the decks created for this are faster/more resilient than the current options. They probably are. 90% can't unban (10% wants to play with)

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There's no "might" about Time Spiral being better than Mind's Desire in High Tide. Time Spiral IS better because it requires no setup outside of 6 mana. Mind's Desire requires that 6 mana and a healthy storm count. A huge advantage of High Tide is that it untags your lands so you can cast the stuff you draw, whereas with Mind's Desire you better really really really hope you find a Turnabout with it or you could easily screw yourself. I mean, you might as well say that Goblin Lackey "might" be better in a Goblins deck than Foundry Street Denizen. There's no contest between the two.

Some people make the argument that Mind's Desire would be played in addition to Time Spiral, but I feel even that's a poor choice because it'll be worse than whatever you take out. There are two basic parts to a High Tide deck: What you do before casting Time Spiral (getting the cards you need), and what you do after casting it (setting up the win). It's very important that all cards in the deck be as useful as possible in both cases. For example, the cantrips are useful before or after. The counterspells are useful before or after. Things like Turnabout are useful before or after. Mind's Desire is only useful after you've cast Time Spiral and some other spells (to build up the required Storm count), meaning it's a dead card beforehand, and that's not what the deck wants.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

How anyone could think that Goblin Recruiter was a good card to even design in the first place, let alone unban, boggles the mind.

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Because at the time it was printed, there wasn't as many good goblins out there.

I have to agree with the above notes about High Tide & Minds Desire. All I can say is if they unbanned Minds Desire I wouldn't put it into the High Tide deck, I'd put Minds Desire into the Minds Desire deck.

Minds Desire is probably one of the only cards right now I would consider jumping ship on Spiral Tide for, but they are not going to unban that, I can't even say "if they ever did unban it then..." because they just will not unban that for Legacy, there's no way.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

In my case, I adapted by picking up TNN decks and apologizing profusely to each opponent for playing a "bitch" card.

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This is how I feel start taking over a game with TNN. :frown:

I also get frustrated when I have to start resorting to situational cards (Golgari Charm and the like) and end up drawing them against the other threats(creatures with toughness > 1, like Stoneforge Mystic).

Someone pointed out that TNN leads to boring games that makes players not want to play Legacy and that is certainly not a situation anyone should support.

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Originally Posted by feline

I have to agree with the above notes about High Tide & Minds Desire. All I can say is if they unbanned Minds Desire I wouldn't put it into the High Tide deck, I'd put Minds Desire into the Minds Desire deck.

Minds Desire is probably one of the only cards right now I would consider jumping ship on Spiral Tide for, but they are not going to unban that, I can't even say "if they ever did unban it then..." because they just will not unban that for Legacy, there's no way.

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My thoughts 100%. I would definitely tweak away from TES if Mind's Desire was ever unbanned. But there's no point in even doing a thought experiment on building a deck b/c it won't happen.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

There's no "might" about Time Spiral being better than Mind's Desire in High Tide. Time Spiral IS better because it requires no setup outside of 6 mana. Mind's Desire requires that 6 mana and a healthy storm count. A huge advantage of High Tide is that it untags your lands so you can cast the stuff you draw, whereas with Mind's Desire you better really really really hope you find a Turnabout with it or you could easily screw yourself. I mean, you might as well say that Goblin Lackey "might" be better in a Goblins deck than Foundry Street Denizen. There's no contest between the two.

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If the high tide deck was about reaching a critical storm count instead of hitting that 6 mana threshold, you might view it differently. Time spiral comes at real costs: It has to resolve and you have to draw into a good enough 7. While the latter is certainly a problem for desire (although you don't give your opponent a fresh 7), the former is where desire is pretty great. Storm triggers are hard to stop :)


The entire deck would have to be tailored to creating a higher storm count, so perhaps saying the high tide shell as we now know it is the best fit is wrong. But it is my first instinct to start breaking the card, that's all.