[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Dorans biggest issue is Karakas. I've played him before in yardless junk, but having him bounced for the low cost of Tap Karakas is miserable.

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i do not think that this would be a big issue, its not like every creature of ours is bouncable with karakas, plus karakas does not stop show and tell decks from using griselbrand or emrakul, which are both legendary

also TNN decks do not have a direct tutor for Karakas as we did in the past with knight, the only got filter-cards like brainstorm and ponder, which does not assure that they get the karakas, plus we have wastelands as well

i for my part think that doran could be quite usefull in the TNN matchups, simply because 3 damage from an unequiped TNN is still quite fast if you cannot do anything about it
i like doran for this part because he is tutorable and after he landed TNN is ridiculously awefull without equipment, which we should allways be able to handle

EDIT: another sidenote

my current equippackage is Umezawas Jitte and Sword of fire and Ice

i am seriously thinking of replacing jitte with sword of light and shadow, because most of the time i fetch fire and ice because it serves the a similar role as jitte, but this sometimes even a bit better i would say, therefore i was thinking of replacing jitte with sword of light and shadow because sword of Light and shadow would serve a totally different role in the deck that way
and i would maybe put jitte in the SB

what do you think?

SoLaS is not a substitute for Jitte. Jitte single handedly beats D&T and Elves.

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Originally Posted by rlesko

SoLaS is not a substitute for Jitte. Jitte single handedly beats D&T and Elves.

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i am well aware that SOLAS is not a substitute for jitte.
As i stated in the previous post i think that jitte would be more like SOFAI yet still different.

SOLAS would perform a totally different role than both of them. SOLAS would be quite usefull in attrition battles because practically it gives protection from all relevant removal that can be directed on creatures (abrupt decay would be better used on the equipment itself)

It gets back killed or sacrificed creatures, gives life (= time)
and BTW SOLAS would beat D&T singlehandedly as well (SOLAS on a goyf is an unblockable 3-turn clock, given there is no rest in peace on the field).

Again, SOLAS as i said allready twice, would perform a completely different role

also there would still be the option of running Jitte main together with SOFAI, and SOLAS in the board.

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

i am well aware that SOLAS is not a substitute for jitte.
As i stated in the previous post i think that jitte would be more like SOFAI yet still different.

SOLAS would perform a totally different role than both of them. SOLAS would be quite usefull in attrition battles because practically it gives protection from all relevant removal that can be directed on creatures (abrupt decay would be better used on the equipment itself)

It gets back killed or sacrificed creatures, gives life (= time)
and BTW SOLAS would beat D&T singlehandedly as well (SOLAS on a goyf is an unblockable 3-turn clock, given there is no rest in peace on the field).

Again, SOLAS as i said allready twice, would perform a completely different role

also there would still be the option of running Jitte main together with SOFAI, and SOLAS in the board.

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I'd run Light and Shadow in the board, Fire Ice and Jitte main.

-Matt

hello again guys

i am still tinkering a lot with my list right now
i still dislike SFM a bit as it seems to me that the list got soooooo much slower, compared to knight-version
...... maybe i am still using it wrong

can you guys give me some advice how to play SFM in this deck correctly
in other decks like D&T i am fine with him, but here i seem to have trouble with him/her

today i thought of another way of "not caring about TNN"
now that we do not use the grave anymore for knight, what about tombstalker?
he flies, is a fast clock, very resilient..... basically the only removal that kills him is Swords to Plowshares or a liliana

sadly exactly the decks running TNN are also running swords to plowshares, so i would like to know your opinion on tombstalker
(as a sidenote, the argument on dark confidant does not like tombstalker is negligible, because it is basically not very relevant)

thanks in advance guys

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

hello again guys

i am still tinkering a lot with my list right now
i still dislike SFM a bit as it seems to me that the list got soooooo much slower, compared to knight-version
...... maybe i am still using it wrong

can you guys give me some advice how to play SFM in this deck correctly
in other decks like D&T i am fine with him, but here i seem to have trouble with him/her

today i thought of another way of "not caring about TNN"
now that we do not use the grave anymore for knight, what about tombstalker?
he flies, is a fast clock, very resilient..... basically the only removal that kills him is Swords to Plowshares or a liliana

sadly exactly the decks running TNN are also running swords to plowshares, so i would like to know your opinion on tombstalker
(as a sidenote, the argument on dark confidant does not like tombstalker is negligible, because it is basically not very relevant)

thanks in advance guys

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I dislike Tombstalker in a non-Tempo build. There's so much STP and still to some extent, Jace, that I wouldn't like to play him in a deck without Counterspells/faster clock.

SFM is a card I usually play as soon as I can. Yes, your game is definitely slower just because if you don't fetch Batterskull, you need 3 turns with it. 1 to play, 1 to hold and Vial in, and 1 to Equipment. It's more like 1 turn + 2/3 of a turn + 1/2 a turn if you hit your land drops. But, it's still a pain in the ass, I agree. However, most time, the raw power of whatever you're doing will prevail and you'll win. Or, they'll have removal and then you just continue on with your gameplan, but you've got an Equipment now.

It's hard to say "how" to play it, but ideally not having it countered is the main deal - fetching the Equipment and playing it later is a fine play. I would try to clear the way for SFM if you can before playing it if you are able.

I think Doran is still a very interesting card. The only problem is that he's a 3-drop. Assuming you're not running more than the regular 2-3 Liliana then 2-3 Doran should still be perfectly fine. He does lose against a Goyf, but what doesnt? He's still quite a piece of a fat and sometimes your opponents might forget the change in combat math. He doesn't get Bolted or Fired, only Decay and STP, basically.

-Matt

Is there any chance mystic enforcer is good again. Four mana is pretty reasonable and so is threshold. I would think dodging abrupt decay and true name could make it a pretty effective beater once more, While providing style points for days. Any thoughts?

I can dig it. I mean I just like the thought of "unplayable" 4 drop fatties though. Unfortunately Pro Black is pretty irrelevant since it already dodges the formats main black removal spell.

Pro black is only useful against flying chump blocks from strix stalker and some jank from the gate.

and Griselbrand

It's also good against Germ

my idea of using tombstalker as additional beater, would definitely change the deck to a big extend, and i agree with you sdmatt, that a tombstalker would be way stronger in a tempo-oriented build

i think it could be possible to play the rock as a tempodeck as well, as we did about 2 or 3 years ago with the dark horizon lists
obviously in my opinion SFM does NOT fit such a shell

the list could possibly look like this

23 lands
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tombstalker

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt decay
0-2 Golgari Charm / Vindicate / Maelstrom Pulse / Umezawas Jitte
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2-3 sylvan Library
2-3 Liliana of the veil

4 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy / hymn to tourach /inquisition of kozilek

just a thought.... not more and not less
i do not know if it would be competable or any good, and i did not test it, but in theory it could work.
some tinkering here and there could make it a quite good deck IMO.

for the meantime i am trying 2 Knights again in my list, because i missed the landtoolbox (specially karakas) and the beafy body :P
depending on how much i like them i will possibly change them for DORAN, or maybe even try the list above

With how blue the format is, I've been thinking a lot about Cold-Eyed Selkie as a one-of GSZ target for longer games where Liliana has chewed up everyone's hand. Pretty bad on its own, but maybe you have an equipment sitting around?

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Originally Posted by maharis

With how blue the format is, I've been thinking a lot about Cold-Eyed Selkie as a one-of GSZ target for longer games where Liliana has chewed up everyone's hand. Pretty bad on its own, but maybe you have an equipment sitting around?

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It's sweet, but isn't card draw what Bob is for?

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

It's sweet, but isn't card draw what Bob is for?

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Yeah, but Bob isn't unblockable or GSZ-able.

I don't feel like it would work, but islandwalk + drawing cards seems so good against Brainstorm.format. Maybe more of a Maverick card since they play Pridemage and occasionally Hierarch to get more cards out of it. I like it here, though, because we have Liliana and Deed to help keep it alive.

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

my idea of using tombstalker as additional beater, would definitely change the deck to a big extend, and i agree with you sdmatt, that a tombstalker would be way stronger in a tempo-oriented build

i think it could be possible to play the rock as a tempodeck as well, as we did about 2 or 3 years ago with the dark horizon lists
obviously in my opinion SFM does NOT fit such a shell

the list could possibly look like this

23 lands
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tombstalker

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt decay
0-2 Golgari Charm / Vindicate / Maelstrom Pulse / Umezawas Jitte
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2-3 sylvan Library
2-3 Liliana of the veil

4 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy / hymn to tourach /inquisition of kozilek

just a thought.... not more and not less
i do not know if it would be competable or any good, and i did not test it, but in theory it could work.
some tinkering here and there could make it a quite good deck IMO.

for the meantime i am trying 2 Knights again in my list, because i missed the landtoolbox (specially karakas) and the beafy body :P
depending on how much i like them i will possibly change them for DORAN, or maybe even try the list above

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I feel like dark confidant and tombstalker in the same deck is a recipe for disaster, even with sylvan library.

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Originally Posted by The_Dingo

I feel like dark confidant and tombstalker in the same deck is a recipe for disaster, even with sylvan library.

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that is exactly the argument i meant

have you ever tried them in the same deck?
i have used them both in the same deck for quite some time, well.... 2 or 3 years back when i still used divining tops instead of librarys...... BUT i really was a rare situation where you would really flip a tombstalker from bob, specially with tombstalker being only a 2-off, so in this case you should not be afraid of the lifeloss (hell i am still using shocklands because of sad, sad, budget restrictions)

also, i do not know how you use sylvan library, i tend to use a bit of my lifepoints if it gets me the opportunity to win easily that way, i even pay 8 life some times with the first activation of library depending on the matchup

the best way to find out if tombstalker fits in the deck is to try him, and not just stick with the "theoretical" approach of confidant + tombstalker is not possible.

the only problem i would see is hot to get tombstalker online faster (maybe grisly salvage, .... i don't know)

I do agree that KotR has lost a lot of her usefulness since the adaptation of Deathritre to as many decks that could afford to run it (including this one). On that, I don't think she's bad enough to remove the land toolbox.

I'm not trying to stop people replacing her. My issue with Tombstalker is the current graveyard hate that's main-board in majority of non-blue decks and the post-board increase in control from the blue decks.

Similarly, I don't think Goyf (all-be-it 1 mana cheaper) is a good option for replacement as well as you force yourself to be more graveyard reliant. As such, your weakness to graveyard hate is increased... which a lot of people will bring in expecting a single card to neuter what's typically your only on-board aggression.

I don't think a single creature would be the answer to the replacement, much less one that's graveyard dependent. Perhaps revisiting Garruk (one of the 4cc one's) or another, harder to destroy, token producer. I wouldn't recommend Lingering Souls unless you've planned to adjusted to either a more aggressive/defensive version than the normal.

Pernicious Deed doesn't guarantee that you'll be able to save any of the deck's current non-planeswalker permanents (as 3cc has been the cap lately). Current lists share an average cc of majority of current decks. Current lists are not designed as the old lists. There are no +4cc creatures that win the game. It's not like legacy was around 2000 when the name of the game wasn't "cheap efficiency" but instead "Effective efficiency". Deed now serves as, as much of a threat to you as your opponent.

I've also decided that IF I start playing again, I'll be switching back to my Mox build as the potential tempo appears to be almost required now. Additionally, the ability to use alternate colors gives single card answer(s) to some of the decks in the format. I still say that if you do decide to test Mox, do not look at them as a mana accelerator but instead a slightly more resilient color fixer.

This is the list that I was tinkering with the other day if anyone was interested. FYI - I haven't played magic in almost a year but I can give reasons for things if anyone wants.


1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

2 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
1 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Sylvan Library

3 Mox Diamond
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Sideboard

2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Defense Grid
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Blood Moon
1 Dismember
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal


Edit - If anyone knows how to toss spoiler tags on things I'd love to know the command (to shrink the list to this post isn't so large).

Good to see you around, Damion.

After testing a BUNCH against Miracles, I think something Pro: White might in order, or at least shroud. Esper Deathblade wasn't bad, but no out to Jace was frustrating as usual. It's how I lost any and all games against Jace decks. If they landed Jace and I wasn't ahead, I lost. Terminus is a pain in the butt.

Realistically, we're battling against only 4 major archetypes:

1) Delver - Patriot, BUG, and RUG. Survive the mana denial, out-removal them, win with grinding them out.
2) Miracles/Control - Miracles, BUG Control, 43 Lands. Survive all their removal, stick something they can't remove/backbreaker or try to aggro them out since we lose the long game.
3) Midrange - Shardless BUG, Elves, Merfolk, etc. Be the better grindy deck.
4) Combo/Graveyard - ANT, TES, Reanimator, Dredge, SnT, OmniTell. Survive long enough to land the hate piece then kill them before they remove it.

We're also facing decks in that order, in all likelyhood. I wouldn't mind shoring up the Miracles matchup, especially European players on Junk, since it'll be a huge part of BoM Annency since it'll do a decent job of preying upon the Delver decks and Combo. Miracles will, in all likelihood, be the deck to beat along with BUG Delver and Patriot in Annency in 2 weeks.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
(could also be 2 Confidant, 2 Doran, 0 Ooze)

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull (could also be Sword of Light and Shadow - Pro White is important especially with many Miracles decks running Snapcaster on STP)
1 Sword of fire and Ice
3 Sylvan Library (super important against Miracles)
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor (manabase has been good so far)

2 Krosan Grip
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Pithing Needle
1 Batterskull/Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Carpet of Flowers/Engineered Explosives


Doran allows you to be above curve and gives you extra juice against TNN. He's also a beater that doesn't die to RIP and really doesn't require much investment. He can block a TNN with a SOFI on it and live easily. He also changes Goyf math so there's no more bouncing.

In the BUG Delver matchup, which I do need to test more, you bring in Oozes and Explosives to help clear up their Delvers and Goyfs. As long as we survive Hymn-Hymn-I-win we should be okay. We have STP and Equipment which will help us be better than their guys, and we just play way more removal.

In Patriot, we have Grip and ZP and EE to bring in. Again, we can bring out stuff that dies to RIP like Goyf and still bring in really good cards against them.

Against RUG Delver, try not to get Stifled out of the game then kill them to death with creatures that don't die to Bolt.

Against Miracles, bringing in Grip, Gaddock Teeg, Needle, and EE should be good enough for a game-over. Needle on Top/Jace means they can't set up removal/miracles, Gaddock Teeg turns off the deck, Grip stops Top/CB, and EE set to zero means they can never Entreat. SoLaS maindeck means they have to block using their flash creatures instead of getting the miraculous 2-for-1.

Against ANT, you really hope 6 pieces of discard is enough to get Teeg down, then you hope Ooze will force them down the Ad Nauseum path, hopefully blocked by Teeg.

Against OmniTell, Teeg is a pain in the butt, and so is Grip.

Against Dredge, you're hoping to slow them down with discard so you can clean up with Ooze.

Aaginst other midrange decks, the mix of big dudes and the other decks' lack of Rest in Peace should mean we win. Against Jund, double Ooze isn't fun for them, neither is Equipment and EE.

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I'll give Doran a whirl and see if he's REALLY worth including, but ideally something that's either Pro-white, flash, or Hexproof for 3 or less mana would be nice. Garruk R. is a great card, and he's wonderful against Miracles, but the problem is that he's not a card I feel is good enough to bring in against many other matchups. Other considerations are Whip of Erebos, Scryb Ranger, etc.

-Matt

what would you think about the following idea?

doran together with KotR

a landtoolbox designed to abuse the fact that doran is legendary, plus a landbox that enables us to ignore jace and TNN

what i would have in mind here would be the following 3 lands

shizo, death's storehouse
karakas
sejiri steppe

shizo is for the alphastrike with doran obviously to possibly hit an active jace or other planeswalker, or maybe even win the game outright
karakas would serve the opposite role of defending your own doran from removal
sejiri steppe is a one-time effect that can be used in both scenarios

also this way also thalia would be a quite good decision for the sideboard against the blue decks in the format and obviously combo as well

other than that, i have to agree with matt that somethink with protection is definitely needed for the deck
the options we have at our dispolas vary a lot

there would be:
mother of runes
Sword of light and shadow
sylvan safekeeper

which in my opinion are the best options