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Honestly deluge is not at its best against eldrazi. Not only are you taking 5 damage but smasher having haste means you will be taking quite a bit. That is why access to a creature that stops most of the big threats from even attacking until they find a dismember is perfect. As you said you just want time. Glissa is a turn 2/3/4 play that makes them have to have an answer. Not sure what other card you could have does that aside from peacekeeper or an ensnaring bride type effect.
Moat. If we're really actually worried about Eldrazi to that extent, Rector into Moat is extremely punishing to that deck. Their plan becomes exactly pinging you to death with Endbringer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
Dude..Moat might be one more reason to play Dromoka as an additional flyer beside Sigarda?? I admit that I might like the idea more than I probably should..Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
E: Because I have always loved Moat as a card. In which match up would it be really useful? Shardless?
E2: Probably outside of a Rector version the card is useless. It is supposed to help against creatures, so against decks over which we are already favored. It'd be useful only vs eldrazi, and that mu is far from unwinnable. Maybe good against shardless
If you are playing Meren just play one copy of Spore Frog and enjoy looping it. Also is gsz target.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
:laugh: Spore frog - you get a medal for the funniest solution. Also nice to get that turn against marit lage, isnt it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergi
I mean, that's a decent short term solution. It probably won't work for more than a couple of turns -- they can ping it with Endbringer on our end step after Spore Frog returns to play, or Dismember Meren, or have Tormod's Crypt / Leyline of the Void / other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergi
Lands will just Bojuka Bog you or PFire/Vortex -- same reason that Meren + Strix doesn't drop Merit Lage for more than a couple turns at most.
Yes was a short term solution/fringe idea. Same as moat against lands (krosan grip exist) Notice that my idea was one single card in sideborad while moat would require more infrastructre (rector + moat)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
If people is looping dryad arbor why not the frog. Anyway if they can deploy and active endringer they can put 4 charges in ratchet bomb.
Played Spore Frog in Survival decks a decade ago. You had Survival+Genesis and it was still trash. Just a completely awful card when drawn and an unreliable engine. Spike Weaver is pretty much better in all likely situations if you want a fog effect in your deck.
Moat is a very good option imo. Stops a lot of popular decks from attacking you, like Eldrazi and half of Shardless, D&T and Grixis. Terrible against Miracles of course. Besides Angels some cards that go really well with it are Lingering Souls and Sorin Grim Nemesis.
With Rector Humility is also a viable option. While Moat is good at stopping the bleeding it does nothing to disrupt the opponent. Unlike Moat Humility affects Flyer of course like Delver/Avenger/Flickerwisp. But more importantly you get to shut down the opponent's engine: DRS, MoR, Metalworker, Painter, Griselbrand or the Elves Draw Engine. Maybe in combination with Curse of Death's Hold and Dovescape. You would have to go deeper into a different kind of archetype but I think it is worth exploring.
Sorry for going off topic with my comment about the frog.
I thought that we are complaining about how fast can end games Eldrazi decks against us, that's why my solution was only one mana cmc GSZ able creature, and when I try to beat them I try to search cards with lower CMC (someone commented several kills by turn 3)
Relying in 2 cards with 4 CMC means that we need to ramp to 4 via Veteran Explorer + therapy (or tower), what means that we need another therapy for the Rector, so at the end you are not able to stablish the lock so fast before they can kill you (I think)
If we are talking about another archetype in Nic Fit (rector fit) then we can discuss it, but I think that is too slow with the current meta.
There are decks such as grixis pyro that are strong against Eldrazi because they can swarm elemental tokens to stop them (only one creature has trample), meanwhile bolting them and they do this with a lot of cheap spells. We are not grixis but we can also stop long enough for stablishing our board control.
One of the Eldrazi weaknesses is their loss life due to lands and phyrexian mana, they are weak to direct damage, so Price of progress could be the way to go paired with Blood moon. Also random discard such as Hymn also hurts them as they play a lot of lands (aprox. 25) with no card filtering/advantage.
Edit: for people that play Nic Fit-Pod versions, Painter Servant at 2 CMC lock them out of mana (Their main lands, eye and temple, can only produce 2 for Colorless creatures) at same time we can use our GSZ if we "paint" green.
Lolz the spore frog is back i have a small love affair with the card. This is totally necroing pg 246
The idea is not terrible, no need to apologize. Brings back memories of Survival Advantage, fun deck. But the problem with Spore Frog is that while you live another turn the situation is exactly the same as before, except that your GSZ is gone. So it doesnt help at stopping the nut draw, it just delays it by one turn and then they have an even bigger board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergi
The combo with Meren is too vulnerable imo. One Dismember or Swords and the game is lost. You paid 6 mana and 2 GSZs, they paid 1 Mana and 1 card, such a disadvantage is usually not recoverable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
I don't want to extend more in frog issue, I'm also eldrazi player, and with the current compositions I think that nic fit is an easy pairing for eldrazi.
You need to consider that chalice at 1 is a typical start for eldrazi, so my advice is avoid relying in 1 cmc non-creature spells. For this you need to abrupt and then path/swords that is a really huge diasdvantage in our side. No mention therapy... Here at least you can sacrifice vet if was already on field.
Also eldrazi main deck several warping wail so say goodbye to your explorers if you can't sacrifice them at same turn or playing via GSZ. Postborad is even worse with black leylines, here you can forget your ramp. Our options are killing them faster or stopping them enough to go bigger/clearing table.
What would you board out for Leyline of the Void? I understand that Veteran is a key card in the matchup from both sides, but bringing in Leylines in that deck seems like an extreme, last-ditch effort type of move, like vs Lands or Dredge. Bringing them in has to destabilize your deck to the point where you think that they'll cripple the other guy and let you kill them with random dorks, which isn't a place you really want to be vs Nic Fit, I don't think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergi
Disclaimer: I've never played Eldrazi, so I have no actual idea. I'm just theorycrafting that bringing those in seems odd.
Some Eldrazi have leylines. Against nic fit I would board out the endless ones for leylines as they are at abrupt decay range. This and chalice and thorn of amethyst and warping wails is enough for stopping us and killing before our 5th land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Notice also that they bring 4 wasteland so secuence your basic lands first.
Edit:leylines + helm is plan b for decks that can stop their attacks.
Jund list that a few friends are testing in Europe. Good results so far, they've said.
4 veteran
2 shaman
1 ooze
1 witness
1 meren
1 huntmaster
1 titania
1 thragtusk
4 therapy
3 top
3 deed
2 truth
1 intent
3 fire
4 decay
4 gsz
2 lili
4 catacombs
2 foothills
3 forest
2 swamp
1 mountain
3 bayou
1 badland
1 taiga
3 grove
2 tower
2 from the ashes
3 thoughtseize
2 surgical
1 reb
1 pyro
1 deluge
1 reclamation sage
1 to the slaugter
1 needle
2 games
Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Been thinking for the past day about a PW list using combat walkers. The 4's are easy, there's Sorin LoI as the best and then there's Elspeth 4 and Garruk Relentless slightly worse. The 5's are interesting, there's Garruk Primal Hunter (if any CCC cost is castable it's green), Freyalise, and Nahiri, and then Elspeth at 6 if you want to go that high. I wonder if it's possible to string a bunch of combat walkers together, alongside a small number of creatures that are good at blocking and/or carrying equipment like STE and SFM, while still keeping the interaction suite and probably lowering the number of GSZ in the deck (since they don't get your PW's).
In Primal Hunters case specifically, he passes the Reality Smasher test. He can come down before it, make a token, and have enough loyalty after the block to survive so you can cast a removal spell. Nahiri the Lithomancer can also pass it but it doesn't look like any 4's can proactively, though like you said Liliana can pass it reactively.
Utility walkers are much better at dealing with Smasher effectively than combat walkers are, amusingly enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I actually think that Jund is probably the place you want to look for this. You likely won't want Domri, but you pick up Xenagos, Sarkhan Vol, Arlinn, and Chandra, Flamecaller, while keeping Garruk Relentless, Vraska, and Ob Nix. That's a pretty nasty planeswalker suite, with a lot of haste for burst damage vs planeswalkers, creature kill, and card advantage. Sarkhan Vol is particularly interesting, since stealing a Reality Smasher, smashing them with it, and then sacrificing it to a Therapy, Tower, or other sac outlet (Varolz?) is super potent. This line obviously works fine with other targets...but Smasher is a super good one.
There's 7 very reasonable planeswalkers there -- even if you assume you're only running 10 copies (like 2 each of Xenagos, Sarkhan, and Arlinn or Garruk) total, that probably leaves enough room for other cards?
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
1 Dismember
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Painful Truths
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Xenagos
2 Sarkhan Vol
2 Arlinn
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Ob Nix
1 Vraska
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
2 Tsunami
2 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaze of Granite
How does that look for a rough draft?
Maybe, I'll have to think on it a bit longer and then test some things. Sadly I got rid of most of my PW's recently so if there's anything real there I'll be rebuying them (though I kept the important ones).Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
What I can say is that my pet deck in Modern is Superfriends, and what I've found in that format is that what you're looking for in a PW is either the ability to impact the board (less desirable), or the ability to untap mana (more desirable). The reason for this is that it's very important to have interaction right after you tap out for something, especially counterspells and removal. Certain PW's will untap mana so that you can tap out for these big unwieldy cards and then play a second card to get some tempo going. The gold star in this regard is Garruk Wildspeaker because he's two mana and he affects the board. I think I would probably want him in any sort of PW deck, especially when green is already the main color. Jace obviously creates a strong argument against my opinion, but Jace still protects himself and draws cards (plus he can win the game), none of which actually go against what I said... it's just a different form of protection.
The other thing I found, which may or may not remain true in Legacy is that the upper limit on PW's in a deck is 7... 8 if you're really pushing things. I've found that to be true in several standard formats as well as Modern since the beginning of the format. This is simply because PW's require a lot of support, and if you include too many PW's you go too low on supporting cards. With respect to the curve I was thinking something along the lines of 2 Sorin LoI, 1 Nahiri Lithomancer, 1 3 CMC Nissa, 1 Garruk Primal Hunter, 1 Elspeth Knight Errant, 2 LotV. Then backing this with large numbers of Lingering Souls, STE, Vet's, SFM's, DRS, and so on.
I'm not experienced enough with the archetype in Legacy to know if the same rules hold.
I do think though that in red Arlinn is too slow. Losing loyalty to put a 2/2 onto the board every other turn just isn't good enough at 4 mana. At the exact same cost you get a 2/2 with haste every turn with Xenagos.
When I've played Eldrazi winter orb has been their best sb card against me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergi
I don't think the matchup is that bad because if they run out of gas they have no way to refill and are done, so you just need to survive the first wave. Maybe BUG has less trouble because strix is quite good against them.
I can't decide if liliana or hymn is better in my deck. Liliana always seems to just edict something and then die, while hymn has been pretty nuts. But liliana is much better vs miracles and randomly saves your pants vs marit lage, cheated emrakul, etc.
Reading the last page or so (and having faced Eldrazi this weekend) I guess the best way of dealing with Eldrazi is either clogging up the board or whiping the board clean on turn 3 or so. Running a set of Will-o'-the-Wisp/Fog Bank would be one way of swinging the MU in our favor (this weekend a couple of Nether Shadows and other stuff that kept coming back saved me from 5/6 Eldrazi running towards my face for several turns straight).
Another way to go would be Damnation/Wrath of God/Retribution of the Meek type stuff. Annihilate their cards, drop that creature you've been tanking in your hand and call it a day.