All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by feline

I have to agree with the above notes about High Tide & Minds Desire. All I can say is if they unbanned Minds Desire I wouldn't put it into the High Tide deck, I'd put Minds Desire into the Minds Desire deck.

Minds Desire is probably one of the only cards right now I would consider jumping ship on Spiral Tide for, but they are not going to unban that, I can't even say "if they ever did unban it then..." because they just will not unban that for Legacy, there's no way.

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I love combo decks, and One of the few decks I'd jump ship on sneak and show for would be minds desire. Picture is cool, mechanic is great, and it random so I'm in!

Is a minds desire deck really more powerful than high tide or ant? I didn't play when it got banned.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

It's a fine card, Dwarven Recruiter is not in any way broke and it's in effect the same card. When it was printed, the goblin was fine. Then Onslaught came along...

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I guess that's fairish. My point is that the card is either useless and unplayable or broken and a massive time sink.

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Originally Posted by apple713

I love combo decks, and One of the few decks I'd jump ship on sneak and show for would be minds desire. Picture is cool, mechanic is great, and it random so I'm in!

Is a minds desire deck really more powerful than high tide or ant? I didn't play when it got banned.

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The Old extended deck might give a clue. I've tested with that card for fun and even non lethal T1 Desires put you so far ahead that your opponent can't ever come back from it and the Discard you may flip.

Appears that peeps underestimate that Cabal Ritual is +5 mana, Dark Ritual is +3 and Rite of Flame At LEAST + 2 under a Desire and therefore AS good (or even better) than LED.

Desire into a bunch of cantrips/discard with a single LED/DArk Ritual equals at least a Mindtwist.

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Originally Posted by rufus

The thing with Minds Desire and (to a lesser degree) Yawgmoth's Bargain is that the casting cost is high enough to make it quite difficult to play honestly. Bargain can be cheated into play, but it's less game-warping than some of the creatures they've recently printed - and those are easier to get on the table. Similarly, why cheat the casting cost of Desire when you could cheat Enter the Infinite which is much more reliable. Moreover, the window where Mind's Desire is going to be better than Tendrils of Agony is quite narrow, and tendrils is much easier to cast. Maybe the best comparison is with Time Spiral - fire off Mind's Desire to - effectively - get a grip of cards and the mana to cast them. Sure, it's strong, but it doesn't seem meta-breaking.

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Lol how about Mind's Desiring into an Omiscience or Enter the Infinite..? Lol. Yay, I draw my deck, have a lot of free mana sources & counters to protect my combo, storm like a madman and cast Tendrils to end the game. Enjoy. Seriously, it isn't that hard to come up with this stuff...

What if brainstorm was banned? What would the meta look like?

I'm thinking Show and Tell would be hit pretty hard. They wouldn't be able to unload redundant combo pieces.
Esper might be ok since they still have Jace. Tempo decks might be ok.

Death and Taxes probably becomes the deck to beat. Rock might make a huge come back (here is hoping). Belcher probably gets better.

Discard gets a lot better. So does Bob, Sylvan Library and top.

Edit - Dredge gets better. Zoo and Maverick probably still aren't playable.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Appears that peeps underestimate that Cabal Ritual is +5 mana, Dark Ritual is +3 and Rite of Flame At LEAST + 2 under a Desire and therefore AS good (or even better) than LED.

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If the goal is to tutor into Mind's Desire, finding :u::u: is also a challenge.

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Lol how about Mind's Desiring into an Omiscience or Enter the Infinite..? Lol. Yay, I draw my deck, have a lot of free mana sources & counters to protect my combo, storm like a madman and cast Tendrils to end the game. Enjoy. Seriously, it isn't that hard to come up with this stuff...

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Sure, Mind's Desire into those is strong, but - say - Dream Halls is comparable from that perspective.

A bit more meta:
It's hard to prove a negative (i.e. that Mind's Desire won't be problematic). Meanwhile the arguments that Mind's Desire is OMGWTFBBQ strong seem to be assertions that '6 storm is enough' without a whole lot of specifics. (This is understandable, since it wouldn't really fit into any current decks all that well.) We don't actually influence the B/R list all that much anyway, so I'm going to be leaving this in the agree to disagree bucket for now.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Lol how about Mind's Desiring into an Omiscience or Enter the Infinite..? Lol. Yay, I draw my deck, have a lot of free mana sources & counters to protect my combo, storm like a madman and cast Tendrils to end the game. Enjoy. Seriously, it isn't that hard to come up with this stuff...

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Euuh seriously: show and tell into omniscience and EtI is still much easier to asemble.
To anyone spewing random comments without any proof other then vintage or casual games I would refer to the article on SCG by Ari Lax on the bannings/unbannings. Atleast he went to the trouble testing actual decklists.
For what it's worth he said mind's desire didn't see any stonger compared to ad Nauseam Tendrils. 4UU IS hard to get!
And bargain does cost one more mana then Ad Nauseam. This IS relevant.

I'm not saying they should be unbanned but posting random comments without any testing is useless. Do research before posting please!

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The Old extended deck might give a clue. I've tested with that card for fun and even non lethal T1 Desires put you so far ahead that your opponent can't ever come back from it and the Discard you may flip.

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Maybe I'm wrong, but what Lemnear wrote seems very probable. I don't think we want a card that is a possible mix of Ancestral Recall and Mind Twist. But maybe I'm mistaken, I really can't tell how the miniDesires would be powerful.

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Originally Posted by rufus

If the goal is to tutor into Mind's Desire, finding :u::u: is also a challenge.


Sure, Mind's Desire into those is strong, but - say - Dream Halls is comparable from that perspective.

A bit more meta:
It's hard to prove a negative (i.e. that Mind's Desire won't be problematic). Meanwhile the arguments that Mind's Desire is OMGWTFBBQ strong seem to be assertions that '6 storm is enough' without a whole lot of specifics. (This is understandable, since it wouldn't really fit into any current decks all that well.) We don't actually influence the B/R list all that much anyway, so I'm going to be leaving this in the agree to disagree bucket for now.

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Omniscience/Dream Halls allows you to cast cards for free, Enter allows you to draw cards, Mind's Desire effectively allows you to do both (although a limited degree with respect to card draw).

Unlike Ad Nauseum, Past in Flames, Doomsday and even Bargain, Mind's Desire is a storm-engine that a) isn't dependent on life totals or the graveyard and b) gets exponentially better with multiples. The cards you cast with the first Desire counts adds storm towards the second, it can quickly be silly chaining Desire into Desire, etc.

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Originally Posted by davelin

Omniscience/Dream Halls allows you to cast cards for free, Enter allows you to draw cards, Mind's Desire effectively allows you to do both (although a limited degree with respect to card draw).

Unlike Ad Nauseum, Past in Flames, Doomsday and even Bargain, Mind's Desire is a storm-engine that a) isn't dependent on life totals or the graveyard and b) gets exponentially better with multiples. The cards you cast with the first Desire counts adds storm towards the second, it can quickly be silly chaining Desire into Desire, etc.

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I don't think it's absurdly more powerful than say Omnitell is, or even reanimate/SnT Griselbrand. Desire is just another flavor of storm and I'm in favor of those decks being viable top decks. Not that I play them as i was never good at storm, but they keep magic interesting and diverse from creatures. It's also one of the few decks that can end the game on the spot in one turn. Has a high skill barrier to master, unlike Show a ridic creature into play and do what you want.

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Originally Posted by menace13

I don't think it's absurdly more powerful than say Omnitell is, or even reanimate/SnT Griselbrand. Desire is just another flavor of storm and I'm in favor of those decks being viable top decks. Not that I play them as i was never good at storm, but they keep magic interesting and diverse from creatures. It's also one of the few decks that can end the game on the spot in one turn. Has a high skill barrier to master, unlike Show a ridic creature into play and do what you want.

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This guy gets it.

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Originally Posted by testing32

This guy gets it.

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+1

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Lol how about Mind's Desiring into an Omiscience or Enter the Infinite..? Lol. Yay, I draw my deck, have a lot of free mana sources & counters to protect my combo, storm like a madman and cast Tendrils to end the game. Enjoy. Seriously, it isn't that hard to come up with this stuff...

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Desiring into Omniscience/Enter the Infinite sounds hilarious.

And another thing, this isn't extended. A mind's desire deck isn't going to be faster than TES currently is. You're going to be more susceptible hatebears and discard. UU + 4 isn't easy to hit without LED which kind of defeats the purpose of running FoW in your combo deck.

I would predict that unbanning Mind's Desire would have the same impact that the unbanning of Time Spiral had.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Desiring into Omniscience/Enter the Infinite sounds hilarious.

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It also sounds like a very inconsistent deck.

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Originally Posted by JPoJohnson

It also sounds like a very inconsistent deck.

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Those are usually the more fun ones.

New article at SCG talking about the reserved list. The writer says MM could be unbanned.
I lived the MM era and it's true that it was the most dominant card, and it was a 4-of in multiple decks. Not to say that it invalidated some archetipes (Storm, Zoo...)
However he says, and I have to agree, that it's a reactive card. Many one drops are overpowered and some decks are unviable because of that.
It's probably not the solution legacy needs...

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Originally Posted by BVB09

New article at SCG talking about the reserved list. The writer says MM could be unbanned.
I lived the MM era and it's true that it was the most dominant card, and it was a 4-of in multiple decks. Not to say that it invalidated some archetipes (Storm, Zoo...)
However he says, and I have to agree, that it's a reactive card. Many one drops are overpowered and some decks are unviable because of that.
It's probably not the solution legacy needs...

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Mental Misstep safe to unban? Lolwut.

I didn't play during MM era, but just the few times I have played vintage the card seems miserable. I can't even imagine it being legal in legacy where there are arguably even more important 1 drops.

It could certainly be unbanned (wasn't really banworthy in the first place imo, and I played storm in that era :tongue:). But I don't think It's a fun card and it doesn't open up any new decks or archytypes so I still wouldn't like to see it unbanned. The same is true for mind twist imo.