[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I'll give Doran a whirl and see if he's REALLY worth including, but ideally something that's either Pro-white, flash, or Hexproof for 3 or less mana would be nice. Garruk R. is a great card, and he's wonderful against Miracles, but the problem is that he's not a card I feel is good enough to bring in against many other matchups. Other considerations are Whip of Erebos, Scryb Ranger, etc.

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A list of interesting creatures with their ups and downs that fit that standard:

Troll Ascetic
Witchstalker
Stillmoon Cavalier
Aven Mindcensor
Boon Satyr
Caller of the Claw
Wolfir Avenger


And some options that have similar utility, but aren't quite what you're looking for:

Restoration Angel
Thrun, The Last Troll
Kitchen Finks
Blade Splicer


I feel like if we go in this direction, we want to be the Rest in Peace deck against other BGx decks and things like TES. Then we want to be the Bolt-resistant deck against URx tempo. Witchstalker is intriguing to me. I keep forgetting it exists. It's sort of like Voice of Resurgence in that no one will ever play into it unless they don't care about the value you get, so it's essentially a City of Solitude or a huge alarm bell that something is about to happen. So if you can take that as a signal and then use hand disruption to get around it, that option is there for you.

Thrun just seems like a big-time house that's underplayed. I have been tinkering with a Junk deck featuring Time of Need and Doran in Modern and Thrun is so good there. We get GSZ in Legacy, but it takes 5 mana to get to Thrun. Hard to say what's better or worse but Thrun might be the answer we seek (and it's good under Deed)

Doran can niether block or be blocked by a tnn while wearing a sofi id throw the quote in if I wasnt on my phone. He does however make all aggresively p/t-ed creatures a little less effective. A swing for one from tnn is kinda bla at three mana and between decay and pridemage if you let equipment stick you probably deserve to loose

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

Doran can niether block or be blocked by a tnn while wearing a sofi id throw the quote in if I wasnt on my phone. He does however make all aggresively p/t-ed creatures a little less effective. A swing for one from tnn is kinda bla at three mana and between decay and pridemage if you let equipment stick you probably deserve to loose

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I mean, even if the equipment doesn't stick the clock is quite a bit different. You still have more time.

-Matt

Yea thats pretty much what I was saying it changes the clock by a lot I may have just misread what you were saying. Maybe you meant doran survives being blocked by tnn wearing a sword either I misread it or its a typo. Doran is definetly interesting tech stoneforge and deathrite hit for more while geese and goyf can be neutered by rip with little drawback to one's self. Hes also a bit of a surprise no one sees doran coming in legacy. I also like stillmoon cavelier in that spot not sure immediatly which is better probably doran.

So I played in my monthly local and took first, playing against Elves, Deadguy Ale, Imperial Painter, and BUG Shardless.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Dark Confidant
2 Doran, the Siege Tower

3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of fire and Ice
3 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

2 Krosan Grip
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Engineered Explosives

Went 2-1 against Painter. Having 2 EE, 3 Needle, 4 Abrupt Decay, and 3 STP is pretty darn awesome. Fetching Summer basics feels good, bro.

Played against a newcomer to our group playing a Deadguy brew. Game 1 got SUPER grindy where I lost all my equipment in hand, but battled back with 7/8 Goyfs that finally stuck. His little dudes couldn't keep up. In Game 2, I was behind due to Edicts and Sinkholes, but got ahead when I fetched Dryad Arbor to connect to an onboard Jitte to blow out double Dark Confidant on my opponents side. Sylvan then drew me some cards and I closed the game out.

Round 3 was against Shardless BUG. game 1 got super grindy and he used Visions, which I could have take turn 1 but instead took Brainstorm. I got double Mystic, double DRS onboard but he killed my equipment. He had Liliana ticking up and some little guys, but I just Deathrited him to death. Game 2 I kept a Swamp+Thoughtseize hand, with great prospects of Sylvan, SFM, Goyf, Liliana after a mull. Turns out, I didn't draw ANY more land and died. Game 3 was also grindy, but on turn 5, with online Dark Confidant, I stick Sword of Light and Shadow and swung past Baleful Strix. I dropped Sylvan and drew many cards, and just outvalued him. He died with a Visions on the stack.

Drew against Elves to drink beer, then won 1st place anyway. I won back my own Stifle!

Overall, I really liked the feel of the board and the maindeck. Dorans didn't do much work since I wasn't against Delver.deck, but I feel like it'll be decent. Otherwise, it could also just be Ooze and Confidant again, or maybe Scryb Ranger. Who knows. Maybe Stillmoon Cavalier. Time will tell.

-Matt

What about just playing Brimaz? Double white maybe sucks (maybe too much), but that guy is a beast in combat.

Brimaz is an EXCELLENT card, but again the problem is double White. A nice double white beater is Mirran Crusader, but it's much harder to run.

Can't really stress SoLaS enough. Card's darn fine.

-Matt

yeah SOLAS is awesome, that is why i was thinking of running SOFAI and SOLAS main, and Jitte in sideboard
still, jitte cost 1 mana less, so i do not know

about doran
i really start to like him
a "5/5" that can come down on turn 2 is pretty good, and allows for an extremely aggressive play
in the early game he is allways bigger than a goyf, and slows down delver and TNN significantly

currently i was trying a list with doran and knight together plus the landtoolbox i mentioned

here is the list

23 lands (shizo, deaths storehouse, karakas, 3 wastelands, maze of ith, dryad arbor)

4 deathrite shaman
3 dark confidant
3 tarmogoyf
1 scavenging ooze
2 knight of the reliquary
2 doran, the siege tower
2 stoneforge mystic

3 swords to plowshares
4 abrupt decay
2 liliana of the veil
2 Green sun's zenith
2 sylvan library

4 thoughtseize
2 cabal therapy / inquisition of kozilek
1 umezawas jitte / sword of light and shadow
1 sword of fire and ice

the knights are bit beaters, and the landtoolbox is allways good, but the knights for themselves are not that good anymore, and i did not even use them much as a toolbox-enabler
so knights will probably be cut, yet i will keep the "toolbox" because every land is quite useful.... even shizo, deaths storehouse is quite usefull, because it makes legendary creatures allmost unblockable
and shizo will even get more usefull postboard where gaddock teeg and possibly thalia will join doran as legendary creatures

as allready said
i like doran quite a bit, and i will definitely test a 3rd one
basically going -2 knight of the reliquary, +1 doran +1 inquisition of kozilek / qasali pridemage / 3rd equipment / 3rd GSZ /3rd SFM (which one do you think would be best?)

i know that most of you guys are now using the full set of SFM, i have to say that in testings i did not really like that so much, because i felt like my creatures are too small, and it was an extremely slow play if i have no batterskull in the list (taking 3 turns to get the profit of a equipment)
with only 2 SFM i feel more comfortable, because i will not force the game down the equipment road, but use SFM as a surprise to get the an edge in the game (way later in the game, and not as early as possible)

it probably comes down to playstyle for reason i never really liked SFM in this deck, yet his powerlevel allmost forces his inclusion

I really want shizo to be good. My buddy played rogues passage in maverick to actually decent success, and shizo is essentially a much cheaper version which seems sweet.

Tested pretty heavily against Esperblade last night and the addition of SoLaS has given you a really big edge. Recurring EE always sucks, as does resolved Jace on an empty board, but nothing I can do there.

Doran was good when he did land, and he did neuter a TNN enough to allow me to win a game.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Tested pretty heavily against Esperblade last night and the addition of SoLaS has given you a really big edge. Recurring EE always sucks, as does resolved Jace on an empty board, but nothing I can do there.

Doran was good when he did land, and he did neuter a TNN enough to allow me to win a game.

-Matt

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Sweet. What part of the sword was best? The Pro White? Or the recursion abilities? Would maybe War and Peace or Feast and Famine be warranted?

Pro White against STP was quite stellar, but also allowed swinging past SFM. Pro Black is nice for swinging past Baleful Strix and mainly, Germ token.

The 3 life is nice, and the recursion is gravy. Bringing back Goyf/Gaddock Teeg/SFM is pretty excellent.

I wouldn't run either since I want pro Black and White, but mainly pro White.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Tested pretty heavily against Esperblade last night and the addition of SoLaS has given you a really big edge. Recurring EE always sucks, as does resolved Jace on an empty board, but nothing I can do there.

Doran was good when he did land, and he did neuter a TNN enough to allow me to win a game.

-Matt

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really nice to hear that my suggestions were good for you matt, even it doran might have been a bit unconventional :tongue:
but i love the fact that doran mad an win over TNN possible :cool:

on SoLaS, what is your opinion about it?

i would wonder if you would see it possible to run it over jitte MD together with SoFaI? or would you still stick with with jitte + SoFaI, and put SoLaS in the sideboard?

either way
i tested a list with 3 dorans in it now, not extensivly, but i think enought to say that doran is fine as a 3-off as well, but in my list with 2 GSZ i do not need 3 dorans, as i am usually able to get one or draw one when i need
yet have to say i love the added aggression from a 2nd turn Doran because he will be the biggest creature on board for quite a while, and with your deathrite shaman and ooze you can make sure he stays the biggest on the field.

shizo, deaths storehouse is actually quite good with doran or any legendary creature together with any sword specially
if you only have shizo its a land for black mana
if you only got a legendary creature ... well you got a legendary creature
if you got both, lets assume doran + shizo you got yourself a small progenitus

yet it is still to see if shizo is good enough to stay in the list

the MD slot that will be freed in my list will now at first go to glissa, the traitor, simply because she is a beast in combat, legendary for shizo, and actually provides the possibility to recur lost swords.
if her manacost is too restrictive, or she proves not good enough, the slot will go to qasali pridemage (which is awesome together with SoLaS)

i allways hope that my thoughts are usefull to you guys :tongue:

Junk'd my local weekly 4-0 (well, 3-0 then split since I wanted to grab food, but would have trounced the Death and Taxes guy).

Played Strawberry Shortcake Painter (Rw Painter) Round 1 (2-1); Mono Red Imperial Painter Round 2 (2-1); Uwr Patriot Blade Round 3 (2-1); and then the DnT draw.

Sword of Light and Shadow was pretty great against Delver, since the creatures we have are too big to Bolt, and I got to swing past a Germ and 2 SFM's with Doran to bash for 7 then bring back my own SFM to search for Fire/Ice. Pimp.

Doran was VERY good against Patriot, but decently bad in the Painter matchups, of course. It's just a pain he's 3 in 3 colours, but so far, so good.

-Matt

All red or white all four rounds happy boros hunting matt!

Played a qualifier in Netherlands the other day with my Rock Deck and went 4W/2L.
I played against:

Rd1: MUD 1-2, gm1 Loss,I was mana hosed but had a bit of disruption ran out of removal and died to Blightsteel. gm2 Win, lots of disruption mainly assaulted his land base. Gm3 Loss, turn zero Magus of the Moon. Had a great hand but could not fetch with my three fetches.

Rd2: GOBLINS 2-1, gm1 Win, opponent had to many cards in Board. Gm2 Loss, played well but after an inquisition for Matron, opponent top decked an Gempalm incinerator to roast my untapped Deathrite with three lackeys on board I STP'ed 1 but the other two plopped in 2 ringleaders he drew 8 goblins and went off. Gm3 Win, disruption had plays on my opponent, surgical extraction on a matron and a Batterskull + SOFI early to seal it up quick.

Rd3: b/g Planeswalker HOME-BREW 1-2, gm1 Loss, fought through sinkholes and only drew lingering souls (all 4) but I kept attacking his Vraska instead of him with my tokens (was trying to save lands but didn't work). Gm2 Win, disrupted him pretty well and my test card (Imp's Mischief) had him sinkhole his own land :). Rd3 Loss, no mana draw plus sinkholes + decays on Deathrites =dead.

Rd4 ESPER DEATHBLADE 2-1, gm1 Win heavy disruption SOFI did her work. Gm2 Win heavy land disruption plus an early SB Aegis of the Gods shut down his discard. He grabbed ahold of SOFI And went to town. Raced TNN easy.

Rd5 BURN 2-1, gm1 Loss not enough disruption. Gm2 Win, used STP again some life & surgicaled his Smash to smithereens and batterskulled him out the game. Gm3 Win same

Rd6 W/U/R DELVER 2-1, good player, gm1 Win lots of disruption and liliana kept TNN of my back for souls to push him out of the game. Gm2 TNN on t3 plus bad land draw. Gm3 went to time but I carefully planned my Pernicious deed once his hand was empty. Suited up my Batterskull with SOFI and put it away on turn 4 of 5 :)

Unfortunately did not make top 8 due to losses but I think I would have down fairly well

My list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite shaman

4 Lingering Souls
4 Thiughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Vindicates

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Imps Mischief

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sensei's diving top

4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Karakas

Sb:
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 ensnaring bridge
1 pernicious deed
1 oblivion ring
1 grafdiggers cage
4 mindbreak trap
2 enlightened tutor
1 umewaza's jitte
3 surgical extraction

Personally I will be changing things a bit. I think sylvan library is the way to go and I want one more imps mischief.

So I'm one of those guys that try playing a lot of different decks because I really want to play the best none-blue deck possible. I've tried nicfit, rock/junk, jund, loam, maverick, d&t, etc but for some reason I always fall back to the Rock colors. I do believe that Rock/Junk is the best non-blue way to go. Here's some thoughts

1. Lingering souls. This card is really, really good. It's the main reason to splash white IMO
2. Stoneforge. This card is also very good, especially together with Souls. I currently run Jitte+SoFaI and always having creatures to equip on, is great. And oh, they are flying too. Becaus one problem I find with SFM is that you don't always have creatures for the equips. Or they just kill all your creatures that you try equiping on, because we don't really play all that many creatures that can attack well (confi, deathrite, sfm) However, Souls does this very good
3. I don't like batterskull all that much. Mainly because if SFM gets killed t2 you have that batterskull stuck in your hand... forever. And we dont have any way to shuffel it into the library
4. I like tarmogoyfs, but maybe not as 4-off anymore. That's mainly because of TNN. And he can be chumped for all eternity, and very easily dies to any removal. However, I still play 2 in my deck because sometimes, that goyf just gets you there.. we all know how good it can be
5. Top Vs Library. This has been discussed a lot at this point and latley I've been trying out Library a lot and no, I'm sorry, I prefer top everyday of the week. Easier to play, finds the card you actually need (as it works much better with fetch's), better synergy with dark confidant and undestroyable.
6. Tidehollow sculler sucks.
7. Abrupt Decay>Vindicate/Pulse always. 1 mana cheaper and uncounterable really is a huge deal. Oh and instant too.
8. Liliana. She's very good, good synergy with Souls too. We really need to have an answer to TNN and this is the one. Liliana is rarley ever a dead card

I agree, except with the Sylvan part :P To each their own :)

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5. Top Vs Library. This has been discussed a lot at this point and latley I've been trying out Library a lot and no, I'm sorry, I prefer top everyday of the week. Easier to play, finds the card you actually need (as it works much better with fetch's), better synergy with dark confidant and undestroyable.

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So Top does have distinct advantages. I'll agree - if you're running 4 Confidants Top might likely be a bit better. However, I dislike spending mana derdling around for cards in a deck that needs to jam threats all day, every day. It is easier to cast, but Sylvan allows not only card selection but card draw. Against Miracles, Sylvan is game over usually on Turn 2 for them.

Also, there's some strategy in Needling Top against Miracles, and you can't do that if you're running your own Tops.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by litenkatt

7. Abrupt Decay>Vindicate always. 1 mana cheaper and uncounterable really is a huge deal. Oh and instant too.

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Jace, Elspeth, Tombstalker, Batterskull, Sneak Attack and every land ever printed wave hello ...

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Jace, Elspeth, Tombstalker, Batterskull, Sneak Attack and every land ever printed wave hello ...

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neither of these will be answered for sure with a vindicate or a pulse (aside of the land thing, which we have wasteland for) because the decks that are running these cards are running blue, which means counters, and 2/3 of the archetypes using these cards are running 6-8 counters where some of them might be softcounters or not, but still slow down the answering of one of these permanents long enough to pull the win.

so i would agree with

Abrupt Decay > Vindicate / Pulse

in as far i am concerned every situation necessary......... outside of the applications of Decay there is still more useful stuff than a vindicate
3 mana is a lot nowadays