[Deck] Goblins

Hi all,

it has been a while since i posted here on the goblin thread since i haven't been playing this deck in large tournaments lately, so maybe my considerations could be unrealistic. Anyway, i want to underline an aspect that at my eyes seems constantly underestimated and it is the winning percentage against combo decks g1. From what i see, near to all the lists purposed are completely lacking any defense against any form of combo in the first game. If you think a mere rishadan port will save you from ANT/TES/Omnihalls/SneakShow/whatever, then it has to be your lucky day. I've recently read many tournament reports of people piloting combo decks, and the description of g1 against Gobbos sounds almost always something like "I'm faster, they die". Do you really accept to be a dog g1 against these decks, and then hoping to recover g2/g3? Unless we have the nuts and they keep horrible hands, i find it hard to be believable. Maybe it's my local meta that's unhealthy, since it's totally infested with any form of combo (even crappy food-chain ones) but i cannot think of not having a single out in my main 60's against a freaking ANT opponent. That's why i think Thalia deserves to be main-decked, replacing things like Sharpshooter (that i think could still have a place in sb) and even SCG. Thalia also helps lowering the curve, and that's not bad at all.
@GoboLord, the Mirror Entity idea is intriguing, i'm eager to hear how it works for you
Just my 2 cents, feel free to insult me now =)

@Davrek: I feel the same way about having chances on G1 and unfortunatelly I don t believe that goblin shaped things like WI and PD are fast enough to consistently race combo nowadays. Winning G2 after SB is often not enough becase they we ll be on the play G3. I do play with 4 thalia main deck and it does help but it doesn not make the MU favorable anyway, against any combo. Although It will steal a game here and there that you had no business winning otherwise.

I can see that you are from Italy, I went there a year ago and put up a decent finish: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/34932/visual
As I remembered, yes it was full of combo decks. Especially S&T was very big and I lost in the final againt sneak and show. However, in that period peple were stil playing with progenitus which made it possible to race them with PD, I remembered I won few games that way.

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Just my 2 cents, feel free to insult me now =)

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nobody is gonna insult you :tongue:

I don't have any experience playing with Goblins (only against them) and I always wondered one thing.

Why do lists that play Thalia user her over Thorn of Amethyst? Thorn is better on the mana and it also stacks if you have multiples of them which would be really good.

From the opposing side I never found that a random 2/1 First Strike body has much impact on the game, not enough to warrant playing another color for it.

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Originally Posted by Tao

I don't have any experience playing with Goblins (only against them) and I always wondered one thing.

Why do lists that play Thalia user her over Thorn of Amethyst? Thorn is better on the mana and it also stacks if you have multiples of them which would be really good.

From the opposing side I never found that a random 2/1 First Strike body has much impact on the game, not enough to warrant playing another color for it.

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Can be vialed in and if you have a Caven free put into play without the fear of counters. Also I am interested to know what you're playing if a 2/1 with First Strike is not that much of an issue for you.

Tao is famous for his work on Nic Fit.

I have a question: I was watching Max Tietze online and saw him Incinerate a Germ-token with less then four Goblins in play. How is that possible? I just can't get up with an reasonable explanation. Can somebody explain?

Edit: of course I could have miscounted...

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Originally Posted by Chatto

Tao is famous for his work on Nic Fit.

I have a question: I was watching Max Tietze online and saw him Incinerate a Germ-token with less then four Goblins in play. How is that possible? I just can't get up with an reasonable explanation. Can somebody explain?

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Can you post a link?

@discussions on topic: don't have the time to elaborate a good comment yet, but am reading it, and liking it a lot.

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Originally Posted by Chatto

Tao is famous for his work on Nic Fit.

I have a question: I was watching Max Tietze online and saw him Incinerate a Germ-token with less then four Goblins in play. How is that possible? I just can't get up with an reasonable explanation. Can somebody explain?

Edit: of course I could have miscounted...

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Probably the token suffered (combat) damage before.

Edit:
Another explanation could be that one of the players had an activated Mutavault, which is also a Goblin.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Can you post a link?

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I mistook an TSH for an Incinerator, nevermind...

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Originally Posted by AlmostGrown

Hey guys, I'm planning on going to a big Legacy event this weekend. I'm currently using this list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=57049 (card for card)

The meta I am expecting is skewed in favor of combo and blue decks (Miracles, RUG, Show and Tell variants, BUG variants). Suggestions for changes to the list?

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That list looks pretty solid. About the only thing I would do is try to showhorn in more storm hate in the form of Chalice of the Void. Do you really need TSH, Krosan Grip, Pyroblast etc? I'd probably shave some/all of them for CotV.

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Originally Posted by Davek

it has been a while since i posted here on the goblin thread since i haven't been playing this deck in large tournaments lately, so maybe my considerations could be unrealistic. Anyway, i want to underline an aspect that at my eyes seems constantly underestimated and it is the winning percentage against combo decks g1. From what i see, near to all the lists purposed are completely lacking any defense against any form of combo in the first game. If you think a mere rishadan port will save you from ANT/TES/Omnihalls/SneakShow/whatever, then it has to be your lucky day. I've recently read many tournament reports of people piloting combo decks, and the description of g1 against Gobbos sounds almost always something like "I'm faster, they die". Do you really accept to be a dog g1 against these decks, and then hoping to recover g2/g3?

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That's my understanding of how the matchup plays out, which is also why we need more than just 4 hate cards vs them.

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Originally Posted by Davek

Unless we have the nuts and they keep horrible hands, i find it hard to be believable. Maybe it's my local meta that's unhealthy, since it's totally infested with any form of combo (even crappy food-chain ones) but i cannot think of not having a single out in my main 60's against a freaking ANT opponent. That's why i think Thalia deserves to be main-decked, replacing things like Sharpshooter (that i think could still have a place in sb) and even SCG.

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I think if you're going to run Thalia, you should replace Piledrivers, not Sharpshooter/SGC.

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Originally Posted by Davek

Thalia also helps lowering the curve, and that's not bad at all.

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Only if you cut the cards you suggest, which I disagree with.

Of course, the question is, although you improve your matchup vs combo, you presumably worsen it vs other decks. How many percentage points are you giving up vs other matches, and are you making the deck worse as a whole?

I'll be playing in SCG Minneapolis this Sunday, but I haven't been able to do much playing leading up to it (its been a crazy-busy summer). So I must ask this forum for some insight.

1) What MD list have you found has the best G1 against Jund and Shardless BUG?

2) What sideboard cards are you running that have made the biggest impact overall (not just against certain MUs but across the field)?

I'm leaning towards a monoR build, but I'm also considering running the Rwg list that I placed 10th with at SCG Milwaukee. But really, I'm wide open. If you have quality suggestions please post them here or PM me.

Thanks,
Jon

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

I'll be playing in SCG Minneapolis this Sunday, but I haven't been able to do much playing leading up to it (its been a crazy-busy summer). So I must ask this forum for some insight.

1) What MD list have you found has the best G1 against Jund and Shardless BUG?

2) What sideboard cards are you running that have made the biggest impact overall (not just against certain MUs but across the field)?

I'm leaning towards a monoR build, but I'm also considering running the Rwg list that I placed 10th with at SCG Milwaukee. But really, I'm wide open. If you have quality suggestions please post them here or PM me.

Thanks,
Jon

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Not sure about your first question. There's probably not a lot of difference between one variant and the next against those matchups. Others may have some ideas.

As for Q2, I think the most high-impact SB card choices are 1) Chalice of the Void, which does huge work against a wide range of deck strategies, from RUG to Storm; 2) Thalia, for similar reasons; 3) Krosan Grip, which handles one of the biggest weaknesses of the deck, namely that it is very easy to hate out with problem enchantments and artifacts.

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Originally Posted by EluThingol

Not sure about your first question. There's probably not a lot of difference between one variant and the next against those matchups. Others may have some ideas.

As for Q2, I think the most high-impact SB card choices are 1) Chalice of the Void, which does huge work against a wide range of deck strategies, from RUG to Storm; 2) Thalia, for similar reasons; 3) Krosan Grip, which handles one of the biggest weaknesses of the deck, namely that it is very easy to hate out with problem enchantments and artifacts.

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Plus GY hate and creature removal.

So something like

4 CotV
3 Thalia
3 Relic
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Krosan Grip

Seems to cover all of the bases

Thanks for the suggestions guys, I'm definitely gonna drop the awkward Show and Tell targets and REB for some CotV's!

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Originally Posted by AlmostGrown

The meta I am expecting is skewed in favor of combo and blue decks (Miracles, RUG, Show and Tell variants, BUG variants). Suggestions for changes to the list?

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Originally Posted by magicmerl

4 CotV
3 Thalia
3 Relic
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Krosan Grip

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OP was refering to the fact that a portion of his field is covered by S&T archetypes. Also in his enumeration i don't see storm combo and burn decks. In connection to magicmerl sideboard suggestion I would suggest removing 1 or 2 CotVs and adding some specyfic S&T hate cards (namely Angel of Despair, Confusion in the Ranks).

Sooo, some things:
1st against Jund i really love having Tarfires. If they aren't able to draw Cards via Confidant and gain life and mana fixing by the shaman the matchup get's easyer, though it's a very hard MU anyway, because we dont have any good way to interact with hymn to tourarch and thoughtseize. Another thing is abrupt decay on vial. Lands are Important in this MU and the more basics you run, the less they can waste you out of the game.

2nd against shardless Bug, thalia, wastes and port's really shined for me. Making them not cast their Agents and Hymns and Lilis and try running away with the game is my usual plan.

Lighting Crafter and Sparksmith should be pretty good against both of them.

3rd in Sideboard i like being prepared against special arcetypes more, but if you want flexible hate, tobias dreger has answers. He runs spell pierces, wich are helpful against any type of combo decks and, if you time them right, also against moat and Humility and Entreat (if that's a factor).
In Strasbourg he was running Celestial Purges against Liliana, Plague, Shaman, Bob, Griselbrand and all these Kinds of Stuff.


Last thing is a list i played around was a Rb list, made reasonable results with it and will try it in my next few tournaments
... and i want to hear your thoughts!


4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey

4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Warchief

4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warren Weirding
1 Stingscourger
1 Sparksmith

1 Lightning Crafter
1 Earwig Squad
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Chieftain/Sharpshooter/SkirkProspector

4 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Rishadan Port
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
4 Cavern of Souls

SB:
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Earwig Squad
1 Sharpshooter/Boartusk Liege
2 Fire Convenant/Pyrokinesis
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Deathmark

I'd love to fit in a Basic Swamp because you really want a black source and you really dont want to fetch nonbasics, so maybe 2 Badlands 1 Swamp would be right.
Maybe i would swap deathmark for perish with the swamp.
Aaaaand maybe 4 waste 2 port is better then 3/3, i don't really have a clue.

What i really like about black is the Maindeck T2-4 Out against Combo + high Goblin count.
Some things about Earwig Quad: Against Combo you can take their wincons, against Control, you can take Sweepers, Hate-Enchantments or wincons, against Esper you can take equipments, against Jund you can take plagues postboard, and the squad is still 4/2 under a plague. He trades with Tarmogoyfs very well, all in all: I love him^^

Soooo: what do you think?

@Asgar:I have played B/R a lot and the basic swamp seems horrible even with bloodstained mire. You are mostly a red deck with a black splash. About port and wasteland, I would go for a 4/3 split because mana denial is super good in the format right now. I also don't like earwig squad because it could be really slow. This is where I would take the list:

4 lackey
4 ringleader
4 matron
4 warchief
4 gempalm
4 piledriver
1 Krenko
1 lightning crafter
1 weirding
3 MWM
1 stingscourger
1 sharpshooter
4 vial
1 scrapper

6 random red fetchlands
3 mountain
2 badlands
4 cavern
4 wasteland
3 port

sb
4 cabal therapy
2 perish(amazing against shardless and Jund)
3 pyrokinesis
3 relic
3 cotv

I haven't played the black splash in a while so this is not the best list but it's where I'd start if I were to play the archetype again.

One Black Source less and one colorless mana more is Not an Option for me. I'd Love to Play the 10th Black Source. Against Combo its necessary Boeing able to cast therapy in Turn 1.
In rb gobbos i think you really want the Black Source permanently and if you have port, cavern, Fetch for example and you Fetch Mountain you have to wait until you draw the next Black Source - acceptable.
If you fetch badlands and it get's wasted you're not able to play incinerator, lost your Black source and have 1 fewer Black source in your Library - Not acceptable.
Then, if you Fetch mountain and Need 1 more mana to cast your Ringleader and you want your opponent to put a creature more on the table (because you have perish/convenant) a badlands as next land is bad when he wastes it and Goes on, putting pressure on you, while the swamp makes you chill and bring able to cast all your spells that are not Double red.

I don't know if i could make myself clear, but i want to Run as Many Black sources as possible and maybe the Basic swamp to be able to cast my spells, when i Need to.^^"

A Little Sidenote to Squad: i saw esper swording and disfiguring, jund decaying and bolting, as miracles swording my mogg war Marshall tokens and matrons, when they Knew i had the Squad :)

I reworked my goblin list, here is what it looks like:

//24
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
2 Plateau
1 Volcanic Island

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 AEther Vial

3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Tarfire

3 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Piledriver

1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Diplomats or Prospector


SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Envelop
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Rest in Peace


Diplomats needs more testing.
And Id never run below 4 caverns, Id rather play 6

If i wanted to run a black splash i would probably play some discard spell main deck (2-3).
I've always thought that our deck needs some more one-drop apart from the classic vial/lackey/prospector. It really sucks when you have no turn one play, especially in a deck like ours that need to apply pressure or slow down the opponent in order to win in mid-late game, and with only nine one-drop we quite often don't have the luxury of a turn one play.
Tarfire is not an option to fix this problem because it is a reactive card (we would play it only if our opponent cast a creature turn one), while discard is proactive and perfect as a turn one play to slow down the opponent, and fantastic against combo.
I think 2-3 thoughtseize(or inquisition of kozilek) main deck could be useful (not cabal therapy because you can't play it turn one if you don't know what your opponent is playing), supported by 4 cabal therapy in sideboard.

Thoughtseize main sounds Pretty nice, i will definitely Test it.
Blue against Combo with 7 sources is a Bad plan imo. The Benefit Counters have in comparison to Thalia is, that you can cast them on T1. If you dint want that, just cut Blue and Play thorns.
If miracles is a Big Player in your Meta and you want to Fight Entreat and Terminus: Nvm.