[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Gempalm = 4 of (If you can't appreciate uncounterable burn that replaces itself, but can also play out a chump-blocker or attacker, well, you probably shouldn't be playing Magic).

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Ok I guess I should stop playing Magic now... no seriously your removal package is totally depends on your meta game. Gempalm doesn't remove a turn 1-3 Tombstalker for example.

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That puts me in the 6-7 category. I feel like Goblins doesn't need to go too removal crazy since we've got the chump blockers to spare. Also, we don't mind wasting guys on the attack in order to get damage through (unlike Zoo which really needs to send its Cats through either an open or dominated board).

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1. Chump blockers don't replace removal.
2. Why would I waste my Piledriver or Lackey on a Goyf if I can prevent it while removing my opponents creature with a single spell?

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Originally Posted by Avatara

Ok I guess I should stop playing Magic now... no seriously your removal package is totally depends on your meta game. Gempalm doesn't remove a turn 1-3 Tombstalker for example.

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Uhh, you can take 1 or 2 hits from a tombstalker. Decks that play tombstalker are generally not a problem. If a deck pitches his hand for turn 1-3 tomb stalker, he probably won't attack in the face of your 1x goblin lackey... so..

this really isn't an argument against gempalm incinerator.



@"new Piledriver"
Let's be honest, Chieftain is a watered down version of Piledriver, and so this new Wardriver or whatever is a watered down version of Chieftain. But in the end, they are all comparable to Piledriver because they add damage equal to the number of goblins you control. I realize it is an over simplification, but at the core, it is that, a weak piledriver.

@removal
Yeah, I agree with jrw.... 7ish removal seems good. I myself play a mono colour list, so I am forced to play with Stingscourgers...I run a 4/2 split between gempalm and stinger. In addition, I run his sharpshooter.

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Originally Posted by jin

Uhh, you can take 1 or 2 hits from a tombstalker. Decks that play tombstalker are generally not a problem. If a deck pitches his hand for turn 1-3 tomb stalker, he probably won't attack in the face of your 1x goblin lackey... so..

this really isn't an argument against gempalm incinerator.

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I couldn't beat Eva Green with the list that won the previous Starcity Games (only removal 4 Gemplams). I never had any problems with my mono red (because of the Stingscourgers). This is a fact from my play testing sessions. Decks that tend to run Tomb Stalkers have a shit load of removal and hand destruction. They make me discard my Ringleader and Matron... Snuff out my Lackey and get a Goyf, Tombstalker or shade to beat me up in a couple of turns. What am I supposed to do? Waiting for 5 goblins for my gempalm isn't fast enough. Not to mention game 2-3 were they bring in Engineered plague. The pressure is on Goblins in this match-up... sure we beat them in the mid-late game, but if they have a good hand it wont even get to that. Sinkholes & Wastelands also hurts like a bitch when you are playing fetch (splash G or B).

To be honest... in how many matchups is the uncounterability really relevant? In a lot of match-ups Gempalm doesn't do that much because we either don't have enough creature (for example vs countertop & red-rock -> Firesprout main deck). If we had enough creatures on the board chances are big that we are already winning any ways. Gempalm can also backfire... if they kill a goblin in response to avoid lethal damage. You are basically left with a spell that says pay 2 -> draw a card. Of course there are matchups where it's good, but right now I'm playing more matches were I rather have other removal.

Singscourger removes a creature. Warren weirding makes your opponent sacrifice a creature and Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to the face or kills an early game creature. Gempalm draws you a card and might kill something if the conditions are right. Even in match-ups where gempalm is supposed to be awsome like goblins and merfolk I often rather have Pyrokenesis, Bolt or Sharpshooter.

I personally don't believe that there is an ideal removal package for Goblins. It depends on your meta game... if someone thinks otherwise I would love to hear their arguments and be enlightened.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

I personally don't believe that there is an ideal removal package for Goblins. It depends on your meta game... if someone thinks otherwise I would love to hear their arguments and be enlightened.

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Your are right on this point but...
What I'd like to point out is that you don't always know the metagame or it is sometimes is too diverse. In this case considering you run 4 matrons you better diversify your removal. I play every good goblin removal in my main deck except tarfire.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

I couldn't beat Eva Green with the list that won the previous Starcity Games (only removal 4 Gemplams). I never had any problems with my mono red (because of the Stingscourgers). This is a fact from my play testing sessions. Decks that tend to run Tomb Stalkers have a shit load of removal and hand destruction. They make me discard my Ringleader and Matron... Snuff out my Lackey and get a Goyf, Tombstalker or shade to beat me up in a couple of turns. What am I supposed to do? Waiting for 5 goblins for my gempalm isn't fast enough. Not to mention game 2-3 were they bring in Engineered plague. The pressure is on Goblins in this match-up... sure we beat them in the mid-late game, but if they have a good hand it wont even get to that. Sinkholes & Wastelands also hurts like a bitch when you are playing fetch (splash G or B).

To be honest... in how many matchups is the uncounterability really relevant? In a lot of match-ups Gempalm doesn't do that much because we either don't have enough creature (for example vs countertop & red-rock -> Firesprout main deck). If we had enough creatures on the board chances are big that we are already winning any ways. Gempalm can also backfire... if they kill a goblin in response to avoid lethal damage. You are basically left with a spell that says pay 2 -> draw a card. Of course there are matchups where it's good, but right now I'm playing more matches were I rather have other removal.

Singscourger removes a creature. Warren weirding makes your opponent sacrifice a creature and Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to the face or kills an early game creature. Gempalm draws you a card and might kill something if the conditions are right. Even in match-ups where gempalm is supposed to be awsome like goblins and merfolk I often rather have Pyrokenesis, Bolt or Sharpshooter.

I personally don't believe that there is an ideal removal package for Goblins. It depends on your meta game... if someone thinks otherwise I would love to hear their arguments and be enlightened.

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I admit Plague is annoying, but if a Plague is resolved, then your Sting Scourger doesn't help you any better than a Gempalm Incinerator would (or wouldn't). Therefore, your argument about plague in regards to Gempalm VS stinger is irrelevent (I realize you are comparing the decks and not the card, so I just want to make it clear that Plague has no direct correlation to Gempalm VS stinger).

The fact of the matter is Gempalm's card advantage can keep the field equal in the face of their discard. They pack removal and discard, but again, a handsize can only be so big. With all of the acceleration + removal + discard, they probably won't have enough to be a threat on the board. Likewise, if they have lots of acceleration and removal and threats, they won't have much discard. And likewise, if they have acceleration + discard + threat, then they won't have much removal. I think my point stands there, that their hand is not as broken as you claim them to be. If they power out a threat turn 3 with mild discard turn 1-2, then likewise, you should be able to drop 1-2 Goblins in those first few turns. To that end, you only really need to play 3 more Goblins to Gempalm a Tombstalker, assuming you even need to considering all of the damage the Eva Green player took from thougthseizes and fetchlands, he's probably on the Defense (not counting Mogg War Marshalls as I don't even play the guy anymore).

To continue these examples, if an Eva player were to have removal and drop Tombstalker turn 3ish, then you'd get to keep your ringleaders and matrons to refill your hand. Albiet a little slower, but no Eva player is going to use removal on a Matron, so by that alone, you'd have at least 2-3 Goblins by turn 4 or 5? I think you can tank a bit of Tombstalker. Stinger would be faster, but by turn 5, I'm sure he can just drop him out again. Bouncing just delays the inevitable.

You need to document your Eva Green match-ups because they shouldn't be that hard pre-board due to a lack of Engineered Plague. Gempalm's greatest strength isn't the 'uncounterability' but is due to the fact that it replaces itself. The fact that you don't lose card advantage but gain a positive position in the board is crucial. Its only and biggest drawback is that it costs R1 to cycle and it doesn't get cheaper from Warchiefs.

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Originally Posted by jin

I admit Plague is annoying, but if a Plague is resolved, then your Sting Scourger doesn't help you any better than a Gempalm Incinerator would

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Not that I disagree with everything else, but this is wrong.
If they cast Stalker turn 3, I doubt they'll have enough mana / cards to Delve if you return it to their hand.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Not that I disagree with everything else, but this is wrong.
If they cast Stalker turn 3, I doubt they'll have enough mana / cards to Delve if you return it to their hand.

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And you think stinging a Tombstalker to their hand in the presence of Plague will win you the game? As opposed to cycling incinerator for nothing and drawing a card. To be honest, they both do nothing as a resolve Plague with a Tombstalker in hand means you are going to eventually lose. The question is how long it will take.

If they aren't going to cast it on turn 4 again, they'll cast it on turn 5. There is no need to rush with Plague on the table.

Hey guys! I've been following this "removal counting" discussion in those last few pages and modified the deck a few times to playtest.

This is the list I'm running at the moment:

Lands [21]

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Mountain

Core [26]

4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Removal [7]

4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger
1 Tarfire

Flexible Slots [6]

3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Sideboard [15]

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Tinkerer

Removed my Lightning Bolts from MD because they can't be played in less than 3-of IMO. Added the fourth Gempalm and a singleton Tarfire because they are fetchable. Tarfire sucks, I know, but killling that pesky BoP, Noble Hierarch and Fauna Shaman seems fine to me. No skirk prospector MD/SB because I already have KGrip and Tinkerer for Jitte. Stingscourger counting is 2 for a lot of reasons: It's a lackey enabler, it can bounce a lot of big troublemakers (Knight of Reliquary, Tombstalker, Emrakul, Tarmogoyf, etc..), and since I'm not R/B with Wort, playing less than 2 seems wrong to me. My land counting seems a little low, but I haven't been mana short lately, I don't know if I should add another Mountain.

Another thing I've learned in my previous tourney is that you must ALWAYS diversify your graveyard hate (unless you're playing LotV, of course). This 2/1 Crypt Relic split is just good, since you can rely on both without being hurt (some R/B lists don't like playing Relic).

That singleton Boartusk Liege is there to add extra pressure against double E.Plague... Waiting for a KGrip topdeck seems to last forever. And you don't have "forever" against Tombstalkers.

@ Vandalize: You really want a 22nd land. I would never go below 22 lands and in my build I run 24. First glance I'd say cut a Tarfire for another mountain.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

@ Vandalize: You really want a 22nd land. I would never go below 22 lands and in my build I run 24. First glance I'd say cut a Tarfire for another mountain.

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I'd cut either Tarfire or Chieftain...and: If you are Rg I'd rather play Tin-Street Hooligan than Tinkerer.

@ removal-discussion: once again I agree with Scatman. Plague is the best way to defuse Gempalm Incinerator, while Stinger is completely uneffected by it. Nevertheless is the existance of E.Plague not an agrument for or against the one or the other.
I know the value of Gempalm but the flexibility that Stinger gives us (even, or especially) as a 1-of is much more valuable:
* Stinger can be vialed in (doesnt cost mana)
* Stinger hits every creature wihout Shroud and protection (which can also be important to push Lackey through)
* Stinger costs 1 mana with Warchief in play (and can attack)
* Stinger can trade 2 for 1
* Stinger's Echo is nice (but not more than that) against Dredge

I don't see any reason to completely cut Stinger out of the deck for the 4th Gempalm Incinerator.

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Originally Posted by jin

And you think stinging a Tombstalker to their hand in the presence of Plague will win you the game? As opposed to cycling incinerator for nothing and drawing a card. To be honest, they both do nothing as a resolve Plague with a Tombstalker in hand means you are going to eventually lose. The question is how long it will take.

If they aren't going to cast it on turn 4 again, they'll cast it on turn 5. There is no need to rush with Plague on the table.

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If you aways lose the game where they land 1 Plague, and 1 threat, you're doing something wrong.
Our haste enablers, and our Piledrivers (and to a lesser extent, Ringleaders) survive 1 Plague, and if you give your deck tools to fight a threat even over a Plague, the match isn't lost.

Of course Stingin Stalker may not win the game right away, but if he hits along with a Warchief, and a Piledriver, that's 6 less dmg you have to do to your opponent, instead of only cycling a card...

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

I don't see any reason to completely cut Stinger out of the deck for the 4th Gempalm Incinerator.

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We are merely debating the merits of Gempalm Incinerator versus Sting Scourger. I don't think any of us are arguing why one should be completely cut over the other. I think the discussion arose when someone was playing a Sting Scourger #3 over a Gempalm Incinerator #4 so I think that's where the major discussion took off.

A point ScatmanX and the others raised was that Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf are difficult to deal with with Gempalm Incinerator which I do not agree with. I think Emrakul, Iona, Phyrexian Dreadnought, etc. would be an argument for Sting Scourger, but not Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker.

The talking about Tombstalker then raised the question about Engineered Plague, which is entirely a whole different discussion. I don't know why it was brought up. I think it was because of Eva Green.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

If you aways lose the game where they land 1 Plague, and 1 threat, you're doing something wrong.
Our haste enablers, and our Piledrivers (and to a lesser extent, Ringleaders) survive 1 Plague, and if you give your deck tools to fight a threat even over a Plague, the match isn't lost.

Of course Stingin Stalker may not win the game right away, but if he hits along with a Warchief, and a Piledriver, that's 6 less dmg you have to do to your opponent, instead of only cycling a card...

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Are you telling me you are going to sit there and wait for your stinger/ringleader/piledriver/chief combo to win? You don't make it sound very easy considering your only damage dealer is Piledriver. I don't scoop in the face of Plague but let's face it, how many of us have actually gotten the piledriver/stinger/warchief to victory post-plague with a 5/5 coming at us. Not very many of us and not very often. So please don't patronize me by saying I'm doing something wrong if I say it is pretty much a lost game after a plague.

My argument stands that if your piledriver can win through plague, with piledriver and friends, then gempalm can kill a Tombstalker.

You have outs like chieftain and boartusk liege, but how good is that really? I'm not sure. I play both in my 75 right now, but only to cheat a win out of those who think they can run 3x Engineered Plagues against Goblins. Outside of that, I have nothing against plague.

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Originally Posted by jin

You have outs like chieftain and boartusk liege, but how good is that really? I'm not sure. I play both in my 75 right now, but only to cheat a win out of those who think they can run 3x Engineered Plagues against Goblins. Outside of that, I have nothing against plague.

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I have 6 in my 75 (monored) and the only time I have lost from a plague was when the guy actually sided in black lands and plagues, so I didn't see it coming at all...

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Originally Posted by BWM

I have 6 in my 75 (monored) and the only time I have lost from a plague was when the guy actually sided in black lands and plagues, so I didn't see it coming at all...

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They don't play Swords to Plowshares and Vindicates?

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Originally Posted by jin

Are you telling me you are going to sit there and wait for your stinger/ringleader/piledriver/chief combo to win? You don't make it sound very easy considering your only damage dealer is Piledriver. I don't scoop in the face of Plague but let's face it, how many of us have actually gotten the piledriver/stinger/warchief to victory post-plague with a 5/5 coming at us. Not very many of us and not very often. So please don't patronize me by saying I'm doing something wrong if I say it is pretty much a lost game after a plague.

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That's not what he said. I'd suggest to re-read his post.
And: I wouldn't go so far to assume that you are doing something wrong, BUT you should consider some more playtesting against decks with Plague if you really think that a Plague means that the game is pretty much lost. You don't have to wait for nothing in the face of plague. Even in the worst-case-scenario your opponent can't have creatures AND removal AND much lives left when dropping a plague; plus you should have some creatures left (in hand and play). You can also keep your Gempalm + 2 mana and kill something in response on Plague (if necessary).



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Another topic: Recently we are talking about abusing Cabal Therapy. In order to do that, integrating MWM as a 4-of is a logical conclusion. What do you guys think of Goblin Lookout to make more use of MWM. I think he can be very valuable in defense (by upgrading our chump-blockers) and in the offense (for the alphastrike).

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Another topic: Recently we are talking about abusing Cabal Therapy. In order to do that, integrating MWM as a 4-of is a logical conclusion. What do you guys think of Goblin Lookout to make more use of MWM. I think he can be very valuable in defense (by upgrading our chump-blockers) and in the offense (for the alphastrike).

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I think Goblin Lookout is a cool idea and can lead to more consistent turn 4 kills. But, in order to maximize his effeciency, we would need to play full a playset of MWM and then add in a few Lookouts. My only concern here is finding out what to take out to make room here. But i do love the idea of putting more two-drops in the deck. Like I always say, the only negative about gobbos is its outrageous manacurve

Even though Goblin Lookout is neat, Goblin Chieftain is better, I guess. he doesn't eat up a guy and provides Haste. And he's still bonkers with token.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

That's not what he said. I'd suggest to re-read his post.
And: I wouldn't go so far to assume that you are doing something wrong, BUT you should consider some more playtesting against decks with Plague if you really think that a Plague means that the game is pretty much lost. You don't have to wait for nothing in the face of plague. Even in the worst-case-scenario your opponent can't have creatures AND removal AND much lives left when dropping a plague; plus you should have some creatures left (in hand and play). You can also keep your Gempalm + 2 mana and kill something in response on Plague (if necessary).

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

if you aways lose the game where they land 1 Plague, and 1 threat, you're doing something wrong.
Our haste enablers, and our Piledrivers (and to a lesser extent, Ringleaders) survive 1 Plague, and if you give your deck tools to fight a threat even over a Plague, the match isn't lost.

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I don't understand what you don't understand. 1 plague..haster/piledriver/ringleader... isn't lost. I think I got the message quite clearly. Maybe you should re-read his post. I read it like 5 times and got the same message. He is saying haster/piledriver/ringleader will pull a win through.

Please, you are making the same points as I am several post back. You are arguing that Gempalm is useful against Plague Decks which I already said and also you are arguing that Plague decks won't have much of either creatures AND removal AND life, which is what I said. So can you please stop reiterating what I already said like you were lecturing me about it?

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Originally Posted by TossUsToLions

I think Goblin Lookout is a cool idea and can lead to more consistent turn 4 kills. But, in order to maximize his effeciency, we would need to play full a playset of MWM and then add in a few Lookouts. My only concern here is finding out what to take out to make room here. But i do love the idea of putting more two-drops in the deck. Like I always say, the only negative about gobbos is its outrageous manacurve

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Lookout is neat but your Rishadan Port strategy is weakened when there are more 2-drops in the deck...(main deck anyway..)

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Originally Posted by Nidd

Even though Goblin Lookout is neat, Goblin Chieftain is better, I guess. he doesn't eat up a guy and provides Haste. And he's still bonkers with token.

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what about sideboard for the combo match up? I'm looking for more piledrivers...

Goblin Lookout can be played as a 1-of, along with 4 MWM. It's just like an additional pressure imo.

This month’s tournament I sleeved up R/B Goblins and took the field of about 40 players head on.
My deck runs 3 each of Chieftain, Warchief, and MWM, plus 4 Gempalms and 2 Weirdings. SB was 4 Tormod’s Crypt, 4 Chalice of the Void, 1 Thorn of Amethyst, 4 Pyrokinesis and 2 Shattering Spree.
R1 TES
I think I was on the play and lost G1. G2 I sided in 4 Chalice of the Void and 1 Thorn of Amethyst (and 2 Pyrokinesis since he was running Red and could very well be playing Empty the Warrens). I mulled, looking for hate. I saw none and mulled down to 5. Still none, but my hand had Wasteland and Piledriver, so I kept. I had no one-drop, so it was land-go. He fetched an Underground and Duressed me, getting nothing. I played Waste, then pondered whether to play Piledriver or Waste his Sea. I went the mana denial route. He had no T2 play. I then topdecked a Thorn of Amethyst and played it off of my third land. He had no response, and Piledriver+Warchief got there. G3 was abysmal. Once again I mulled to 5, looking for hate. None to be found. Instead of mulling to 4 I hoped to topdeck something playable. This was a mistake, as my 5 had no 1-drop or Wasteland, so he Pondered T1 and went off T2. Shoulda mulled to hate. I took away from this match that against combo, mulling to hate is necessary, especially when you’re on the draw G3. Being the drawing player means you don’t have to decide to mulligan until you know whether or not your opponent is mulling. If they’re keeping their opening 7 you’d better mull into something good, whether or not you have hate.
R2 Staxx
Dumb deck, and my opponent was a dick. No worries though. Beat him 2-0. I don’t understand why Staxx is an archetype. If you find yourself in this match, MWM really shines. Sack for Smokestack? It just so happens I have a MWM here that I don’t feel like paying the echo for. I wound up adding permanents to the field while he had to sack a land, then his smokestack. He was so upset that he almost knocked the table over, banging into it hard as he stood to leave, muttering about how he “hasn’t lost to Goblins in years”.
R3 Zoo
I made a huge mistake G1. I had finally created some board position with a Piledriver, matron, and token in play. I was staring down Nacatl, Lavamancer, and Steppe Lynx. I knew if I attacked into that board my Piledriver would be torched and a Nacatle would eat another, but I attacked anyway. I should have tried to develop more. I might have been able to turn the game around. I sided out Piledrivers and Aether Vials for Chalice of the Voids and Pyrokinesis. The look on my opponent’s face when I cast Chalice at 1 turn 2 was priceless. Another Chalice showed up and I played it for 2 after clearing his board with a Pyrokinesis. On to Game 3. I sided out the Chalices because for Vials because Chalice doesn’t seem nearly as good on the draw. This game was super drawn out. My Ringleaders could have been better to me, but they weren’t, and I couldn’t draw it out all the way. Also, he landed a T2 Sylvan Library, which is just plain old awesome.

So, I played badly G1 against Zoo and got unlucky G3 when my multiple Ringleaders couldn’t draw me out. I was lucky to win G2 against TES, but was unlucky G3 in being completely unable to find a Chalice. The result was 1-2, drop. I really punted G1 against Zoo, and I feel like I should have won G3 but he had that T2 Library which makes that deck so much stronger than it is without. My draws were pretty weak throughout the day too. I never hit a 1-drop or hate against TES. Also, I’m not sure if I should have sided out the Chalices G3 against Zoo… Dunno. They seem bad on the draw, but I guess Pyrokinesis makes it pretty easy to clear their board so maybe I should have kept the Chalices around.

Also, I had a Magic first while playing a game before the tournament! I was playing RB Goblins against my friend’s Show and Tell. I went first and played a mountain and a vial. My friend just played a land. My second turn I upped Vial to 1, played a second land, and cast a Piledriver. My friend played Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, Emrakul, and I put a Siege-Gang Commander on the table. My third turn I upped Vial to 2 and attacked with my 5 goblins. Emrakul blocked the Piledriver (9/2) so in response to blockers I Vialed in a MWM then Gempalmed Emrakul for 7 for a total of 16 damage! Dead Emrakul, won game!