Can someone explain the interaction with scroll rack and life from the loam?
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Can someone explain the interaction with scroll rack and life from the loam?
Cast loam on 3 landsQuote:
Originally Posted by drocker23
Activate rack, putting the 3 lands back on top, drawing 3 fresh cards
Next turn dredge 3 with loam, you are gonna dredge the 3 lands
Repeat
CalebD was streaming a Legacy League last night with Topless Miracles (:eyebrow:) with Soothsaying.Quote:
Originally Posted by gh0st_b1rd
Soothsaying was pretty terrible from what I saw, but obviously you will win some number of games just off the fact that most of the cards in the deck are still idividually good.
You can watch that portion of the stream here.
Soothsaying is so mana consuming it hurts to even think about it.
Instead of Entreat, do you think this is the time for thopter/combo to come back? With decay not being around as much thought it might be an okay option.
Im curious what would you guys think of something like this.
As Miracles Foretold
Sorcery (10)
1x Council's Judgment
1x Entreat the Angels
3x Ponder
3x Restore Balance
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Terminus
Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Instant (16)
3x Brainstorm
3x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Snare
4x Swords to Plowshares
Enchantment (5)
3x As Foretold
2x Back to Basics
Land (21)
4x Flooded Strand
6x Island
5x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tundra
Creature (6)
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Spell Queller
Edit: i love the idea of thopter/sword as the poster before me did mention it so it could work here as 3/2 or even just 2/1 split like minus entreat and 1 queller 1 snare Plus 2 foundry and sword
Bored at work let me brainstorm this so all you miracle masters what are your toughts.
^^ Thank you!
This is just an idea. With the influx of BGX decks I think we run as few creatures as possible to make push, decay, bolt worthless. Now that decay should see less play I do like the thopter combo again and with Academy Ruins.
Thopter Foundry x3
Sword of the Meek x2
FoW x4
StP x4
Brainstrom x4
Ponder x3
Snapcaster x4
JtMS x2
Supreme Verict x1
Moat x1
Dragonlord Ojutai x2 (could be V clique or anything else)
Counterspell x3
Terminus x1
Sudden Demise x1
EE X1
E Tutor x2 (could go down to 1 and run a moon main?)
Granted this could be changed if we wanted to go more towards a standstill route.
Academy Ruins + EE could be a thing again.
Sudden Demise is a card I’ve used before and I enjoyed it. Easy board wipe.
If we are worried about an influx of land decks we could run 2 Moons main or B2B.
No matter which way we go, we won’t be “miracles”. I’m not sure if we created a very heavy control shell with Nahiri if that would be worth it or like a UW Standstill deck like in vintage.
2x Crucible to give it inevitability
Transmute Artifact to get Ensnaring Bridge or Crucible or Sword of the Meek
E.E. to make Academy Ruins just unfair.
The perfect shell for this is the Intuition+Loam one
Loam, Academy, E.E/Chalice whatever...
too slow for the format anyway.
So I was just brainstorming/brewin yesterday about some possible instant speed scry-ish effects to replace top to keep counterbalance still relevant.
Here are a couple of options I found and wondering what everyone thinks. Some give some additional value and some are just the scry effect.
Opt
Lose Hope
Condescend
Lim-Dûl's Vault
Natural Selection
Telling Time
Trickery Charm
Maybe these are bad ideas but maybe not, have to try them out. I like trickery Charm because its 4 cards vs 3 or less and has some other value besides just the reordering the top of your library.
I think it boils down to opt (doesn't dig deep enough) vs portent (sorcery) vs mystic speculation (sorcery, mana intensive) vs preordain (sorcery)
How about Mirri's Guile? It at least sticks around and gives you some filtering. Might need to cut the red splash for a green one though.
I am a Storm player, and few times Miracles player. All I can say is that the best card in this deck was SDT, you can try to add cards which replace SDT to try to make Miracles a viable option, however this is a great mistake.
I'm with Parcher. Miracles will survive.
Here's a first draft off the top of my head:
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 SCM
4 MM
3 Jace
4 FoW
3 CS
2 Snare
4 STP
2 SV
2 Terminus
1 CJ
(40)
8 Fetches
4 Tundra
6 Island
2 Plains
SB:
2 Clique
2 Fluster
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disenchant
3 S. Extraction
1 Terminus
2 BeB
1 EA
Some thoughts:
* The red splash is no longer needed, since REB will be less relevant
* 19 land is sufficient (even with 3 Jace, and 2 SV), since Preordain fixes land-light hands better than Top. Also straight UW allows to fetch for basics.
* 4 SCM to max out BSs for Terminus, EA, and Predict
* Might need 1 more counter in the MD
* Vedalken Shackles might be an option now that Disenchant effects will recede
* In a more general perspective: "downgraded" Miracles will face considerably less dedicated Miracles hate, due to its downfall.
From a competitive standpoint there is absolute no reason to play miracles.
You can make terminus or supreme verdict work, you will beat all the creature decks. However the real problem are the combo decks (even elves).
With top you had a reliable countertop lock and most importantly one could hide a fow from discard. now all of these options are gone. This makes u lose g1 much more often vs combo.
Having creatures like canonist as hate cards also is far from optimal, in a sweeper deck.
There could be a playable version of miracles. but if u guys want to win tournaments, play something different and stop wasting time.
your deck is a mere UW Mentor.
Add Stoneforge and TNN for more fun, change StP for Bolt and you're there
Playing 1-2 copies of Terminus in an otherwise generic UW control list doesn't seem overly crazy to me, as long as you have the cantrips to support it. I've seen UR Delver lists in the past running Thunderous Wrath with only Brainstorm and Ponder to set it up.
Counterbalance and Predict are unplayable now though, so a new UW deck would need an alternate source of card advantage. Besides Standstill I can't really think of a one.
Stoneforge Mystic, 1-2 copies of Painful Truths, Tasigur, 3-4 JTMS.Quote:
Originally Posted by FZA
LoamQuote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
There are more synergistic piles if you want to play Loam, though. Loam and Scroll Rack is cool, but if start going that route, you'll end up with a completely different deck by the time you're done. See The Mind Harvester.Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottW
I wasn't thinking Loam / Rack. More like Exploration and then load up on Terminus and Entreat and play some cycle lands, Noxious Revival, and a few SCM. I played it a bit last night and it was pretty wild making a ton of Angels and wraths. I also played Mox Diamond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Well it's been fun, but Top definitely had to go. If you played this deck right you should have easily had 80-85% MWP against the field. In fact, the deck was so good that you could play bad cards like Predict and Venser and not even play the full 4 maindeck Mentor and still do very well with the deck. I'll catch you guys in the other threads - time to sleeve up Seas.
Has anyone considered a control deck built around nahiri the harbinger as the win condition?
I disagree that Top had to go. Counterbalance and Top had been pillars of control decks in the format since their printing and there was never a problem with them before. Think about how long ago that was. People were dealing with Survival, Goblins, and High Tide back then.
It's the Miracle cards themselves, particularly Terminus, that should have been banned instead of the archetype-defining Countertop package. I would have been happy slinging a tier 2 deck with Supreme Verdicts instead of Terminus. However, for reasons unknown to myself I hate creature decks, and am not faced with the prospect of sliding basically the whole show across the table at my LGS in search of my next deck.
It will be Seas that get shipped back my way, but as I have class, they will be part of Storm and not whatever goofy goodstuff deck WOTC's pushed creatures are fueling this time around.
I've started to brew a bit with Nahiri. Could play blood moon, some number of Snapcasters and Cliques, and a bunch of removal and counters. Probably needs the moons and something like Venser to beat Karakas, maybe Wastelands? Since we're already playing Nahiri as a four mana walker to win the game, I like playing JVP over JTMS.
Why not to try Soothsaying?
Back in old days it was really playable
It's funny how many Miraclesplayes are still too biased to see that. I picked up the deck for the last 3 local weeklies and it was just a joke how many puns you could make (and I did make many obviously) and still have game against every deck in the room. Hell I was even 2-0 against Manaless Dredge. I think UWx control is still viable honestly, you will jsut have to put in some work and accapt that you will have bad MUs (just like everybody else in the format, welcome back to the rest of the field, you enjoyed this "ride long enough)Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
And while it might be true that Terminus or CB would have been nicer to keep the deck somewhat alive, Wizards logic was allways to ban the enabler not the payoff, so it just makes sense that top had to go unfortunatly.
Same can be said about Delver decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by MorphBerlin
People are just used to control decks in other formats that are so underpowered you have to tip-toe the margins to get a win. Miracles was one the only Control deck in recent memory where you had tools strong enough to actually run away with the game. Considering they never have mentioned any statistics in regards to it's win rate, I assume it's not even that much higher than other Tier 1 Legacy decks. If it had been a midrange Stoneblade deck people would have been fine with this, but since it was creatureless control it ended up getting a public execution...
And don't tell me they "only ban enablers", when Modern is littered with decks like Dredge and Eldrazi that completely wrecked the format and were only nerfed from Tier 0 to Tier 1. They know damn well how to balance and curb overpowered decks; killing off Miracles was a conscious decision. Dredge, a cheap, totally degenerate Modern deck that had only been around a few months, was spared whereas Miracles just had to go?
Hi, has anyone tried Sylvan Library to replace SDT after the ban?
I know it is a much more clunky card compared with SDT (higher cost, less flexible activation, mess our manabase).
But it can keep the Terminus/EtA on our library top as long as we don't want to draw it.
Mirri's Guile almost does the same, except for less cost and not allowing additional cards draw.
I know the archetype is destroyed by Wizards, but I still want to play Miracle cards in Legacy, even if this is a tier 2 or tier 3:tongue:
Would appreciate for any input, thanks:tongue:
For me, it's about history as well as finance. For as long as Countertop has existed, it's been a pillar of Legacy's control decks. Sometimes it's been great, sometimes it's been sort of barely playable, but it's never been a stranger to the tables. Both super-competitive players and those who just HAD to jam mono U control used the combination, and Top found a home all over the place.
For years and years Wizards kept it legal because it was, indeed, not overpowered at all. Then they printed these Miracle cards and the archetype took off, becoming ultimately the supreme deck is oh so recently was. It's perfectly obvious to anyone who's actually been playing the game for long enough that those Miracle cards were what pushed the deck over the edge. Prior to the Miracle cards, you had to be some crazed brewer in search of a good Maverick matchup that didn't also lose to combo in order to sleeve up Countertop.
Wizards screwed up again in the interim period with the Delve cards, and for awhile Miracles wasn't the top dog (though it was certainly fine). This error is eventually rectified, in which process Wizards almost intentionally and knowingly put Miracles back on top. After another long period of dominance, we get this.
It's utterly infuriating. There people were, dedicated fans of Countertop in 2012, tooling along as they had been for years, happily using Countertop to occasionally win games of Magic. Imagine the intervening events compressed into a short period of time to realize their absurdity.
"Here's Terminus, enjoy!"
[Eyes get all big, wins a bunch of games, but half an hour later] "Oh oops, it's too good, Top is hereby banned, your deck is now worth $500 less and all the stuff you might want to trade into just went up 20%, have fun playing Legacy: the format we care about and support."
Seriously, what dropped in price? Top, CB and the Miracle Spells? Wasn't that the cheap stuff in this deck anyways?
Btw, there is a new creatureless control deck in hatching which plays 3/0 mana Balance and Ancestral Recalls. Sure, it prolly misses the sweet hard lock and constant Card Quality, so we're back on the ancient power-relation that combo beats control and control beats aggro. But I'm pretty sure it will be a nice control deck anyways and it won't be the first which brings in all the hate against combo from the side. And speaking of aggro: where are this ultra-agressive Zoo builds, now that they didn't have to fear the hardlock and instant ultra-wrath for {w} in the new meta?
So, while you're wailing I already have a ton of fun crushing my opponents with glorious ANT freed from it's green splash and ever-sweet Canadian.
As hard this ban struck me in the first place, I'm starting to like it every day a little bit more.
Maybe shift gears back to the old enlightened tutor build? Rip/Energy field reduces dependence on terminus and the tutor package plays nicely with c balance. Combine with higher jace count and profit?
These ppl might be onto something here:
1)https://mtgdecks.net/deck/mtgo_compe...unsong/682451/
2)https://twitter.com/KMD_ADVANTAGE/st...87775113056257
Does anyone have the full decklist of the second link, cant seem to view the picture in full.
Ojutais, Restoration Angels. Those guys are far too spicy for me.
our colors still have
For creatures, up to:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 REB
4 Pyroclasm/Volcanic Fallout/K. Return
4 Supreme Verdict
4 Snapcaster Mage
For combo
Flusterstorm
Spell Snare
Force of Will
Mind Break Trap
Containment Priest
Karakas
Orim's Chant/Silence
This colors for control are all but dead.
Counterbalance was not so strong with only Decays, Caverns and Vials around and 90% of the time Terminus would have been the same as casting K. Return (DRS, Delver decks).
In my opinion, we still have the same big problem we had before: how do we win? That's why BDD started playing 4 Mentors and no Terminus MD
My response keeps getting deleted for some reason. I've been testing Condescend/JTMS miracles to pretty strong results on MTGO. It's not as good as the deck used to be, but it's doing pretty well. I'll try Portent/Opt/Mystic Speculation next.
* 4 Ponder
* 2 Condescend
* 4 Bstorm
* 4 Snap
* 4 Cbalance
* 4 JTMS
* 1 E-explosives
* 1 Council's
* 4 Terminus
* 4 STP
* 4 Force
* 2 Counterspell
* 1 Flusterstorm (Counterspell/Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce/Spell Snare count needs to be adjusted)
* 10 Fetch
* 2 Volc
* 2 Tundra (Mirroring IRL collection
* 2 Plains
* 5 Island
Sideboard
* 2 Flusterstorm
* 2 Blood Moon
* 4 REB
* 2 Surgical
* 1 Containment
* 2 Wear/Tear
* 2 Vcliue
Trying this right now. Let's see if it works:
http://i65.tinypic.com/mts03q.jpg
« We need alternatives, Hanna, » yelled Gerrard. « Now ! »
Opt surround text is appropriated to our situation. I'm testing the card at the moment and I think it is rather not bad.
This deck is called Stoneblade.Quote:
Originally Posted by laywer
That's pretty much what we have to talk about at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by kentheide
Quote:
Originally Posted by laywer
A few criticisms of the list: I think you need -1 SFM because 2 + 1 equipment has always been enough, and I don't see why you need 3 if you only have 1 equipment to fetch. I would replace the 3rd with a second spell snare.
Secondly, I think you strongly need a basic mountain or a 3rd Volcanic Island if you have this many red cards in your sideboard that you're incentivized to bring in vs Delver, as I don't believe that 2 Volc alone is sustainable.
Finally, I understand you're just testing, as I have, but I think any # of Miracles cards want your manipulation suite to be at it's highest. That likely means 4 JTMS and less Predicts because Predict simply is just too difficult to sustain CA from with only 8 Cantrip effects.
Just my two cents, hope your testing goes well!
I think the evolution of miracles is basically going to go in one of two directions:
1) as soon as someone puts up major results at a big tournament with stoneblade everyone will gravitate toward that
Or
2) Someone will come up with a cantrip heavy uw/x draw go control deck that maxes out on Monastery Mentor and Jace, the Mind Sculptor as it's primary win conditions.
But overall, I believe that without Sensei's Divining Top, the miracles cards are just dead until they print something else that will act as an enabler because right now all the enablers are awful. I seriously doubt there's some card out there that someone hasn't thought of yet that will bring the deck back from the brink of death.
Maybe Landstill will do something but I'm not holding my breath