[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Yes Storm is a bad MU. Discard will not always help against a good storm player as they have access to brainstorm and they will likely hide their key spell. Furthermore, with PIF, they can replay every discarded sorcery or instant spells.
Take their tutor (IT, BW), AD or mana boost (DR, CR) depending of their hand / if not go for discard spell.

AD -> LED at EOT or during upkeep.

Your key spell here is "Ooze". Game 1 if you have time to stick him, you will likely win as they have no answer for him. So keep him under discard pressure and land an Ooze. Start eating cantrips and mana boost in the yard.

Game 2, you will likely face spot & mass removal (pyroclasm, chain of vapor, massacre, toxic deluge) -> Same plan as game 1. Surgical extraction on mana boost/tutor will give you a lot of time. Stick an ooze and kill him.

Against dredge -> Ooze again !!!
they will likely bring some mass removal such as firestorm, maybe chain etc..

With Slaughter I would name "Ichorid".
On a blind therapy, turn 1 -> call LED because if they have one in hand, you are likely dead by turn 2 or 3 maximum.

IMO, Worldspine wurm >>>> Hornet Queen.

From my perspective, if you want to fight against combo, you should diversify your threats. For example, lower the discard count by 1, add a DRS to the board -> you will boost your win % against grave.deck strategy.

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/signed

i already see ooze winning games for me.
i like the plan of the sb cabal therapy to get it with a burning wish.
most of the time i board 1 out to be able to wish for it, should maybe try it from start on.
but i would still run a sb thoughtseize, even if there are md ones.

i am a big fan of deathrite shaman, as i think it's not just a big helper against graveyard-based decks, already thought about adding 1 to the board (md can become a little bit tricky, but if my meta will shift to more flyers i can see me cutting an elder/wood elves.

also i have to say that the whole time i am playing scapeshift now primetime-bigeval titan was very inconspicuous ... all my games i reached titanland it didn't matter much as those games were already won at this time ... but i'm still not sure to cut it for something else ... it doesn't dissappoint me, but i also don't feel like it's essential.

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Originally Posted by MasterHerC

also i have to say that the whole time i am playing scapeshift now primetime-bigeval titan was very inconspicuous ... all my games i reached titanland it didn't matter much as those games were already won at this time ... but i'm still not sure to cut it for something else ... it doesn't dissappoint me, but i also don't feel like it's essential.

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I was in the same place but I've since come around after it won a lot of games in DC for me, it really does something that no other card can. It doesn't always NEED to do that, since it will sometimes win just by being huge, but there are a lot more situations that you can only get out of with exactly Primeval Titan- life totals high enough that you need to make your Scapeshift bigger, you need to get Valakut going to deal with a planeswalker or troublesome creature, you need to pressure them in more than one way by putting in a huge guy AND threatening Valakut, etc. I don't think i'll be cutting it any time soon. He even gives you approximately infinite shuffles with Top if you need to dig up an answer- Titan into 2 fetches lets you see 12 cards.

hey;) today its my first hard touch with this deck when i start test on cocka. i have two question for you guys.
1. which version of Nic Fit is better :
A. Scapeshift
B.ecuring Nightmare
C.Birthing Pod
2.this is possible to make this deck so competitive to try put it on 1st place on big event like bom or scg?

this is first two but important question for me. then i will ask about decklist when i build my own.

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Originally Posted by Cire_dk

The split has been suggested many times in this thread and it does not work. That is why some players put the deck they are currently playing in their signature so we all know what they might be talking about. I do agree it is very confusing to read Nic Fit threads but since we nic fitters are good at confusing people we all fit in really well :smile:

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Uh... Why doesn't it work? The distinctions between even the main three archetypes (I'm referring to BUG, Junk, and P-Fire while discounting only Birthing Pod and Scapeshift, where the differences are stark and obvious) are bigger than the distinctions between BUG Tempo and BUG Control. This is like saying splitting the threads of RUG Delver, UWR Delver, and BUG Delver doesn't work either. The shell is the same for all of these Nic Fit builds, just as the tempo shell is the same amongst these other decks. They all deserve their own threads. :wink:

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Originally Posted by guelahpapyrus

Uh... Why doesn't it work? The distinctions between even the main three archetypes (I'm referring to BUG, Junk, and P-Fire while discounting only Birthing Pod and Scapeshift, where the differences are stark and obvious) are bigger than the distinctions between BUG Tempo and BUG Control. This is like saying splitting the threads of RUG Delver, UWR Delver, and BUG Delver doesn't work either. The shell is the same for all of these Nic Fit builds, just as the tempo shell is the same amongst these other decks. They all deserve their own threads. :wink:

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agree. like i wrote up. BUG / POD FIT / ScapeFit....and others is so diffrent strategy...and people here have to be focus to find posts only target their topic.

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Originally Posted by HardBrain

agree. like i wrote up. BUG / POD FIT / ScapeFit....and others is so diffrent strategy...and people here have to be focus to find posts only target their topic.

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This has been discussed several times before, but it was agreed that the intermingling of Nic Fit archetypes is beneficial overall.

Any tips on the Recurring Nightmare GB/w builds? Looking for something consistent to sleeve up.

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Originally Posted by Cire_dk

The split has been suggested many times in this thread and it does not work. That is why some players put the deck they are currently playing in their signature so we all know what they might be talking about. I do agree it is very confusing to read Nic Fit threads but since we nic fitters are good at confusing people we all fit in really well :smile:

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or we start playing with another version of the deck.
I switched to scapewish for the last two events. Pretty much Ari's list.
1-4 (sat) Lost to sneak/show in 3 (beating a turn one and turn 3 show), lost to RUG delver in 2. Got smashed by dredge in 2. Beat TES in 2, then lost to ANT in 3.
2-2 Today. Beat Goblins in 3, Punishing Jund in 3, Lost to sneak/show in 2. Lost to punishing nic fit in 2. (ran out of mountains so I couldn't kill him :( )

I have another event Sat and Wed. I think I just need more practice with the deck before I switch back to my Junk Wish version.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Any tips on the Recurring Nightmare GB/w builds? Looking for something consistent to sleeve up.

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1. Consider playing Punishing Fire instead if you search for consistency and value. Red blasts and Slaughter Games are important tools that White just doesn't have and Punishing Fire can be nice value, too. I'd recommend my signature list.

2. If you go for GBW nonetheless make sure to play Sigarda. She is the best reason to play White. Also prepare to lose if one of your opponents casts Jace TMS because GBW can't ever beat him.

Tao, i like your list, and i made some my own changes. this is playable deck or destroy this deck and make him weak??:
GUYS
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
OPTIONS
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
SPELLS
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
MONEY
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Kessig Wolf Run

1 Grave Titan
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles - love it vs elves/omnitell/jacedecks

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

My Current BUG list right now:

13 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thragtusk
1 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Primeval Titan

4 Planeswalkers
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

10 Disruption/Removal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Echoing Truth

10 Other Spells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent

23 Land
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Island
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Not too sure about the sideboard yet, but definitely 4 Force of Will and 3 Carpet of Flowers.

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Wolfir silverheart seems really weak to removal

Why echoing truth exactly?

I would cut some green sun's for tops; they're really important.

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Originally Posted by Greenpoe

This has been discussed several times before, but it was agreed that the intermingling of Nic Fit archetypes is beneficial overall.

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Why do you say this?

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Originally Posted by Ralf

With Slaughter I would name "Ichorid".

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Why not bridge from below?

All dredge decks run it (unlike ichorid), and it's much more dangerous.

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Originally Posted by Tao

Also prepare to lose if one of your opponents casts Jace TMS because GBW can't ever beat him.

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Speaking of answers for jace,

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Originally Posted by Tao

Sigarda

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Also in general there are a lot of removal-resistant creatures you can run to beat jace. I disagree that gbw can't beat jace. It may be harder than for scapewish, which can win through it, or pfire, which has a powerful answer to it, but it is still quite possible. For example, how is it easier for bug pod to beat jace than gbw?

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Originally Posted by Koby

Any tips on the Recurring Nightmare GB/w builds? Looking for something consistent to sleeve up.

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I'd choose a rector build because I foresee a weakening of shardless BUG and Jund, thus a general decrese of deathrite shamans: in this scenario rector is more likely to resolve it's ability.

I don't have a list atm, but I think I would play a copy of runed halo as an answer to jace and true name nemesis, as well as a number of maelstrom pulse and vindicate as catch all answers (I think the correct total number is 3).
Obviously they need to be played along at least 3 pernicious deeds.
This should handle the fair matchups.

Against combo the red versions get slaughter games which is the nuts. White combo hate is represented almost by hate bears so I'd stick with more discard: I'd play at least 6 discards main deck. I would also like to play a couple of liliana of the veil right now, since she's good both against combo and blade/delver decks.

One card that I come to dislike is eternal witness: in theory is great but I found her very slow, sometimes too slow, and with all the DRS, oozes and rips around is not that great. I think I'd play one copy right now.

Although you want to play recurring nightmare I recomend to use it as a complementary strategy, ideal for grindy matchups: but remember that nic fit is all about discard-ramp-blow opponent's board and this should be your primary strategy.

For recurring shenigans I recomend thragtusk, kokusho and, if you have an instant sacrifice outlet like tower of phyrexia, faceless butcher: with the proper timing it exiles the creature, no question asked. Also, he's good against sneak&show because it's out of pyroclasm range.

Good rector targets are, apart the one already mentioned, primeval bounty, aura shards, oblivion ring, phyrexian arena, moat, chains of mephistopheles, choke...

This post it's like a collection of thoughts, sorry for that ^_^

anyone who play PunishingNic Fit with jund colors have any idea how break Sneak and Show MU?? it so fck sick deck agains us...
Vs Omnitell i play Chains of M. but agains SnT....its no way to win...we have to be very lucky at all and they have no luck...

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Originally Posted by kingtk3

I'd choose a rector build because I foresee a weakening of shardless BUG and Jund, thus a general decrese of deathrite shamans: in this scenario rector is more likely to resolve it's ability.

I don't have a list atm, but I think I would play a copy of runed halo as an answer to jace and true name nemesis, as well as a number of maelstrom pulse and vindicate as catch all answers (I think the correct total number is 3).
Obviously they need to be played along at least 3 pernicious deeds.
This should handle the fair matchups.

Against combo the red versions get slaughter games which is the nuts. White combo hate is represented almost by hate bears so I'd stick with more discard: I'd play at least 6 discards main deck. I would also like to play a couple of liliana of the veil right now, since she's good both against combo and blade/delver decks.

One card that I come to dislike is eternal witness: in theory is great but I found her very slow, sometimes too slow, and with all the DRS, oozes and rips around is not that great. I think I'd play one copy right now.

Although you want to play recurring nightmare I recomend to use it as a complementary strategy, ideal for grindy matchups: but remember that nic fit is all about discard-ramp-blow opponent's board and this should be your primary strategy.

For recurring shenigans I recomend thragtusk, kokusho and, if you have an instant sacrifice outlet like tower of phyrexia, faceless butcher: with the proper timing it exiles the creature, no question asked. Also, he's good against sneak&show because it's out of pyroclasm range.

Good rector targets are, apart the one already mentioned, primeval bounty, aura shards, oblivion ring, phyrexian arena, moat, chains of mephistopheles, choke...

This post it's like a collection of thoughts, sorry for that ^_^

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Agreed regarding Rector's imminent return. Haven't had time to really work on a list, but I think that the meta is finally swinging back Rector's way. I'd be very happy to cast a Baneslayer in this metagame -- nice True-Name, brah. Let me introduce you to the real unbeatable clock.

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Originally Posted by HardBrain

anyone who play PunishingNic Fit with jund colors have any idea how break Sneak and Show MU?? it so fck sick deck agains us...
Vs Omnitell i play Chains of M. but agains SnT....its no way to win...we have to be very lucky at all and they have no luck...

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Carpet of flower + slaughter games + discard is a good strategy against them: if you exile griselbrand and emrakul they have no way of winning.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Agreed regarding Rector's imminent return. Haven't had time to really work on a list, but I think that the meta is finally swinging back Rector's way. I'd be very happy to cast a Baneslayer in this metagame -- nice True-Name, brah. Let me introduce you to the real unbeatable clock.

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Exactly how I feel: let's play a bunch of flying monsters, baneslayer, abyssal persecutor, desecration demon - you name it - fetch a moat with rector and call it a day :)

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Originally Posted by HardBrain

anyone who play PunishingNic Fit with jund colors have any idea how break Sneak and Show MU?? it so fck sick deck agains us...
Vs Omnitell i play Chains of M. but agains SnT....its no way to win...we have to be very lucky at all and they have no luck...

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I've been playtesting against different decks online recently, and I don't feel like Sneak&Show is an autoloss. If I have therapy, I almost always name brainstorm against blue decks first because this card is just nuts. Then it depends on what you see. Discard is your main weapon against them, at least pre-board. I have 2 thoughtseize, 2 lilianas, 1 hymn to tourach and 4 therapies maindeck, so this is probably a bit above average.

Post-board REBs, carpets and ensnaring bridges help a lot. If you manage to resolve a bridge, you pretty much won the game. I don't play slaughter games (neither MD nor SB) and maybe this is a mistake, but I don't have enough slots and the card seems too slow. Maybe the 2 Toxic Deluges should be Games instead, but deluges are so good against anything aggressive that I don't want to drop them. Golgari Charms are also relevant both against Omnitell and against Sneak&Show.

When my opponent cast two brainstorms in a row and didn't see a Force of Will, he scooped to a bridge. Next game he was too lucky: I survived an attack by a sneaky Emrakul, sacrificed veteran, shaman and a couple lands and was about to stabilize after getting more lands. I had all the cards to win in the next couple turns, and the opponent was sitting with an empty hand and a sneak attack on the battlefield. Next turn he topdecks Griselbrand and I die.

By the way, hello everyone, this is probably my first post here. I'm slowly getting into Legacy and collecting all the necessary cards, and practicing with the deck online. Thank you for this great discussion, I had to read a lot of it before finally choosing Punishing Nic Fit as my first legacy deck. Maybe I'll be able to contribute to the discussion, too.

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Originally Posted by heat_wave

By the way, hello everyone, this is probably my first post here. I'm slowly getting into Legacy and collecting all the necessary cards, and practicing with the deck online. Thank you for this great discussion, I had to read a lot of it before finally choosing Punishing Nic Fit as my first legacy deck. Maybe I'll be able to contribute to the discussion, too.

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i have the same situation here. last month i tested every day another deck cutting those which i dont like bcs legacy is not only winning but fun too. so punishing fit will be my fiest legacy deck over other nic fit version.

ok back to topic. i try test with snt today and really slaughter games is not enough. they topdeck brand and ....uh....


do you run recuring tool to play? huntmaster tusk titans slime?

I also started out with Punishing Fit (very recently too) and I can say that, against fair decks, it is one of the best of its class. Punishing Fire alone takes out the vast majority of creatures and planeswalkers in the meta. I've found it to be an excellent, versatile way to cut one's teeth in this format.

That said, I'm still not sure that it's as strong as ScapeWish. Combo is so strong in legacy that just by playing a control deck you're putting yourself at a disadvantage. It's just that simple. Combo goes on the offensive, and we scramble to try to find answers for it. They are the definitive proactive deck whereas we can only react (because it's not usually possible to race combo) until we stabilize.

I believe this is the strength of ScapeWish: not only do they have the ability to effectively race combo, they can also change gears and be the controller OR the aggressor. Mind you, they don't control as well as Punishing Fit, but that is the trade off. We can't be the best in every class.

I'm not saying ScapeWish is THE BEST version of NicFit, but in a metagame riddled with combo it seems to be the most straightforward way to win faster. I've never actually played the deck, but I can tell you that I would be afraid to sit across the table from it.



Unrelated question:
You're playing against Storm. They're on the play, they go USea, LED pass. You open up with a Cabal Therapy, they Brainstorm in response. What do you name, having no idea what they have in their hand?
And no, this is not some lame riddle or test.

Regarding questions about my recent list:
-Yes, Wolfir Silverheart is weak to removal. It's main perk however is that it's GSZable: otherwise, I would run a Batterskull or other more-reliable pump card. I'm open to suggestions though.
-To me, it seems as though Abrupt Decay only helps against CounterTop, as the CMC < 3 overlaps a lot with Deed. Originally, I ran 2 Maelstrom Pulse over 2 Abrupt Decay, but decided to go with Echoing Truth over both as a method of dealing with Empty the Warren tokens, Bridge from Below tokens (in response to Dread Return or other sac-outlet), Marit Lage token, Iona on black or green, and basically just anything that either swarms the field with cards/tokens of the same name or cheats in a hard to deal with creature that neither Pulse nor Decay can deal with. Game 2, I can always pitch it to FoW. I'm at a loss against PWs with this choice though (biggest reason why Pulse over Decay was JMS) . . . will have to adjust according to my expected meta.
-GSZs are just about the last thing I want to cut, but I can see your point about Tops: I could probably cut 1 or 2 other cards and do a 4-2/3 split with Brainstorm and Tops