Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Hey guys! I haven't post anything for the past 2 years cuz i've been really busy, but i'm always reading the thread when i have some spare time.
About the displacer discussion: Last weekend i won a 4 round Legacy with 2 Displacers in the maindeck and the card was nuts for me, i killed a 9/9 Endless one, made my mangara exile 5 permanents against Miracles and also ruled the mirror like any card has never did.
The list o ran was this one:
9 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair(kinda good with Clysm and Geddom from the board)
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Silverblade Paladin(card is nuts)
1 Batterskull
Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Warping Wail
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containmemt Priest
1 Mastery of the Unseen(still testing, only activated it once but was good enough, but i'll probably cut it next time)
2 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Cleasing
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Council's Judgment
1 Armageddom
1 Cataclysm
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
When I look at the meta... help me understand the match-ups where Eldrazi Displacer is good?
Good:
-Eldrazi
-D&T
Okay???:
-Shardless (unless it's a strix)
-Delver
-Elves (this might be bad actually)
Bad
- Miracles
- Show&Tell
- Storm
- Other Combo
- Burn
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AsmodeusDM
When I look at the meta... help me understand the match-ups where Eldrazi Displacer is good?
Good:
-Eldrazi
-D&T
Okay???:
-Shardless (unless it's a strix)
-Delver
-Elves (this might be bad actually)
Bad
- Miracles
- Show&Tell
- Storm
- Other Combo
- Burn
Displacer isn't only good against your opponent's creatures... reset Revoker, protect your guys from targeted removal, Mangara shenanigans, retrigger Stoneforge, trigger Flickerwisp EoT to take their stuff out for a whole turn, and more I'm certainly missing.
Also, why would it be bad vs. Show and Tell? They cannot attack if their dudes are tapped.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Good - these decks have creatures + don't kill you right away
DnT - Wrecks house
Maverick - Similar enough to DnT
Eldrazi - Eats Endless Ones, Flickers TKS/Reality Smashers, stops a Jitte from getting online
Lands - Doesn't die to Punishing Fire and eats their win con - if you can keep <C> up
Okay - these decks have creatures, occasionally you'll be in a spot where flickering one will be useful and you'll have the mana
Slower Delver Builds - Dies to all Delver deck removal and requires you keeping <C> up which might not be easy, but great trump card for late game
Infect - Again amazing late game but you actually have to get there
Shardless - Sure flicker a Goyf once in a while
Reanimator / SnS - Potentially buys time in a tight game
Stoneblade - Flickers germs, though flickering SfM is pretty unfortunate and TNN doesn't care.
Fish - It's a 3/3 for 3 that might buy you a turn. Good against Image, not good against TNN.
Bad
Miracles - You can come up with scenarios where it's not just a 3/3 for 3, but they're gonna be pretty rare
Storm - Lol
Burn - "I will bolt...you"
UR Delver - "I will bolt...you"
Elves - (Elves player looks confused for 10 seconds, wins next turn)
I tested one last night vs Grixis Control, some Jund brew, Storm and Mono-Red Stompy, and I only saw it once but I never really felt like I wanted it.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Svyelunite
Displacer isn't only good against your opponent's creatures... reset Revoker, protect your guys from targeted removal, Mangara shenanigans, retrigger Stoneforge, trigger Flickerwisp EoT to take their stuff out for a whole turn, and more I'm certainly missing.
- Reset card choices (Revoker, Meddling Mage?)
- Trigger EtB (Stoneforge Mystic, Flickerwisp (see below))
- Blank removal (esp. colorless removal like Warping Wail)
- Remove an attacker
- Tap a potential blocker
- Kill tokens (Angels, Marit Lage, Germs)
- Make equipment fall off (Jitte mostly)
- Unflip cards (Insectile Aberration, Awoken Horror)
- Chain removal (Mangara, Fiend Hunter, Relic Warder)
- Force suboptimal sequencing (e.g. Displace during upkeep, force tap ability in response or not at all that turn)
- +Flickerwisp (widen target choice (not just creatures), extend removal period)
- +Containment Priest (exile cannon)
I'm a big fan of the card. I just don't use it because of the colorless requirement and the activation cost of 3 mana. If someone makes it work though, I'd happily test it out!
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Just piling on to kirbysdl's points...
While in testing I found Eldrazi Displacer awkward, I only ever ran 1-2.
With 2 Mangara of Corondor and 3 Flickerwisp, I think this would be a fine card against Miracles. Mangara is a beating in that match if they can't get rid of it right away . If you get the train going, you can eat them up, and Displacer means you don't need Vial at all. You can also blink Flickerwisp to get something out of the way of Terminus and two Displacer with 3 mana up makes trying to StP one of them look awfully difficult while they beat on you. If Adrian throop had a 1-of Sword of War and Peace instead of singleton Leyline of Sanctity (the weirdest sideboard decision in the deck), it makes only finding one Stoneforge Mystic super effective.
Comparing it to what comes out for it, namely Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger, it is no worse versus Burn, and only slightly worse versus UR Delver because you can flip Delvers instead of trading with them. Crusader is only relevant against Elves if you hit a turn 2 Jitte, and you still have to not die before the equip and swing, and Avenger is also meh.
I see this as a grindier build that wants to maximize on a flex slot creature that has many interactions, but is otherwise a so-so threat. Not that 3/3 is bad, we know it is really fine in Legacy, but as a strict aggro creature, 3/3 without flying and vigilance is definitely weaker than Avenger or 2/2 pro-B/G, Doublestrike. However, as a synergy creature, it is really much better.
For example, you side in 2 Containment Priest and now no creature deck is safe. Even against Elves turn 2 Priest into Turn 3 Displacer looks pretty good as it shuts down anything but a hard cast Craterhoof and lets you start picking off their guys. Again, not going to simply cause the Elves player to fold, but if that is your progression, they won't be happy. This is great against Merfolk that are not TNN. TNN is just something you have to race or have Cataclysm (and still race.)
What I want to know is that people think of Gideon, Ally of Zendikar? That is crazy, but certainly a much better 1-of than Leyline.
With his sideboard, I would take this
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Veteran Armorer
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Rest in Peace
1 Warmth
2 Path to Exile
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Cataclysm
and make it this (I am on the fence about the Gideon, it could be fine, it could be Cataclysm #2; I am on the fence about Veteran Armorer, though it has proven a solid sideboard option for two players now who have done very well with it, though I might prefer a 3rd Canonist and 2nd Pithing Needle)
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Veteran Armorer
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Cataclysm
The only mainboard change would be to his lands:
I know Mishra's Factory is great, but you need W mana sources: -2 MF, +2 W/x Painland of Choice.
I assume he only had 2 of them, but -1 Plains, +1 Karakas in a deck with double Mangara. heck, if you didn't have Displacer, you would probably go to 4 Karakas with 2 Mangara.
That brings him to 15 W sources and still 10 colorless.
Somehow I feel like Magus of the Moon turns Displacer into a vanilla 3/3. Yeah, that seems right. Still, a 3/3 on the ground is a pain against Imperial until you get a sword on a Mirran Crusader.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Is Bygone Bishop way too draft-decky to be played in R/W?
I've started playing a very Iatee list (3 Recruiters, 3 Stoneforge, cut batterskull but replaced it with SoLaS etc) and I wanted a tutorable flyer that didn't just die to dread of night. Gatherer brought me that.
Clue tokens seem mad in combination with Magus of the Moon when your ports are useless and you just want to put the game away, but a vanilla 2/3 flier is also horrible in your opening hand. I've played one game with it so far on MODO and I had it in my opening 7 which basically made my hand an opening 6.
In any case, the R/W list Iatee was playing is super fun and very very good.
Here's my current list but the Bishop is just a placeholder atm.
I've basically cut all the x/1s I can because DnT has been super hated out of our meta (2x dread of night is basically in every 2nd persons sideboard).
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Gideon seems like it could be pretty sweet in the board for Miracles and Shardless BUG. Against Shardless its a threat that they can't Decay, and you could also just emblem if you're worried about Golgari Charm. Verteran Armorer makes sense as Golgari Charm/Dread of Night protection, but its also just a pretty low power magic card overall (whereas Gideon is not). Seems worth trying if nothing else.
Against Miracles its a permanent threat that can produce a constant stream of dudes. Also, Cataclysm might not be as needed in the board now if one if playing the mangara/displacer land destruction plan, so Gideon could fill the role of 4 mana haymaker.
As for the displacer manabase, I wonder how many white and colorless sources are needed. Is 13 white and 10 colorless too greedy? This is where I'm at now, but maybe the 2nd factory should become a white painland.
8 plains
4 wasteland
4 port
3 karakas
2 horizon canopy
2 mishra's factory
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
Is Bygone Bishop way too draft-decky to be played in R/W?
I've started playing a very Iatee list (3 Recruiters, 3 Stoneforge, cut batterskull but replaced it with SoLaS etc) and I wanted a tutorable flyer that didn't just die to dread of night. Gatherer brought me that.
Clue tokens seem mad in combination with Magus of the Moon when your ports are useless and you just want to put the game away, but a vanilla 2/3 flier is also horrible in your opening hand. I've played one game with it so far on MODO and I had it in my opening 7 which basically made my hand an opening 6.
In any case, the R/W list Iatee was playing is super fun and very very good.
Here's my
current list but the Bishop is just a placeholder atm.
I've basically cut all the x/1s I can because DnT has been super hated out of our meta (2x dread of night is basically in every 2nd persons sideboard).
I think Bygone is bad because when things are going right, we aren't casting our spells anyway. And when we are stuck casting spells like a chump, then we don't have extra mana open to be cracking clues left and right.
Try Kor Skyfisher. I'm serious. It's been reliably good for me. T1 Vial, t3 hardcast Recruiter, get Skyfisher, bounce Recruiter and now you have a Vial that will be on 3 next turn + a Recruiter in hand + a free 2/3 flyer is a really strong opening play vs fair decks, you've turned 2 cards into 4 and only have to spend 4 mana total getting those 4 cards into play. Skyfisher also serves as a semi-Flickerwisp vs removal, and casting it when you miss a land drop is great. Obviously there is potential for downside but even the worst case scenario isn't that bad.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
I think Bygone is bad because when things are going right, we aren't casting our spells anyway. And when we are stuck casting spells like a chump, then we don't have extra mana open to be cracking clues left and right.
Try Kor Skyfisher. I'm serious. It's been reliably good for me. T1 Vial, t3 hardcast Recruiter, get Skyfisher, bounce Recruiter and now you have a Vial that will be on 3 next turn + a Recruiter in hand + a free 2/3 flyer is a really strong opening play vs fair decks, you've turned 2 cards into 4 and only have to spend 4 mana total getting those 4 cards into play. Skyfisher also serves as a semi-Flickerwisp vs removal, and casting it when you miss a land drop is great. Obviously there is potential for downside but even the worst case scenario isn't that bad.
Yeah I don't mind the downside of Skyfisher (at worst I pick up a land, oh no how will I ever live) and you're right, Vial makes the Bishop look miserable. Also if we're flooded, Recruiter -> Pia and Kiran is usually just way better anyway. The idea of cracking some clues as a result of playing some dudes, which results in drawing some more dudes to crack some more clues (yada yada yada) against the lame that is Shardless Bug really excites me. My Vials are usually dead thanks to Abrupt Decay and/or Null Rod.
I just bought a sampling of all these horrible tutorable fliers on modo and will eventually get to test them out: Bygone Bishop, Lieutenant Kirtar, Thunder Spirit (for the lolz), Cloudchaser Kestrel (turn an eldrazi into a white idiot so Mom becomes online AND have a tutorable way to destroy a dread of night that also flies, hello valuetown, population Stevestamopz) and also the Skyfisher. All that for less than 50 Trump cents! As it's 3:20am right now here in kangarooland I will probably go to bed soon so I won't get to test all of them but who knows.
I'll basically play whatever the store hosting Legacy tomorrow night has available.
Iatee, how do you side against Shardless?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Depends on the SB but RIPs, Crusaders are the easy side-ins, as is any extra Magus in your SB. I'm almost always playing a Path lately, so if it's clear from g1 they have no basics, it's a strict upgrade for a StP. Relic-Warder is good to have around to eat their permanent based SB hate and the matchup is grindy enough that Pia/Kiran is worth it.
I take out Flickerwisps, Mangara, Wingmares, so the usual g1 x/1s that get worse vs black decks. Going down on STPs is okay, easier the more RIPs you have, but it is nice to be able to t1 STP their Deathrites and make them fear early Magus. I've played this match a million times with my friend who has Shardless and pretty much the only way I ever lost pre-sb was to a Hymn that hit well. If you really are out to beat Shardless, just upping the # of Magus and Crusader you play is basically enough - they're both must answer threats vs Shardless and they aren't really touched by most of their scary SB cards (Dread/Null Rod/Golgari Charm, etc.). The one-of Toxic Deluge is actually their answer to pretty much anything, but there's not much you can do if they get lucky and hit it.
Obviously any black deck can, in theory, stack their SB heavily to beat D+T though, my meta's getting a little like that too. I've been trying one or two Restos lately to try and just go-bigger past the local meta hate + get crazy value out of ETB effects, the only problem is you rarely see them since Wizards forgot to make the card a 2/4. I did beat my friend on BUG Delver last week after he went Dread of Night into Null Rod by just casting an Angel on t4 then wasting him out. If you know your opponent is playing a crazy number of Dread of Nights it can be right to side out more and more of your better x/1s (Thalia, Mom).
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cursecatcher
Gideon seems like it could be pretty sweet in the board for Miracles and Shardless BUG. Against Shardless its a threat that they can't Decay, and you could also just emblem if you're worried about Golgari Charm. Verteran Armorer makes sense as Golgari Charm/Dread of Night protection, but its also just a pretty low power magic card overall (whereas Gideon is not). Seems worth trying if nothing else.
Gideon is kinda a compromise between Cataclysm and WLL, it's probably better than Cataclysm against Shardless and definitely better than WLL against Miracles, but you'd still rather have the more targeted 4-drop-bombs vs the respective decks. Gideon isn't going to win you a game from far behind, whereas Cataclysm can both win you a game from behind and seal up a game where you're ahead. He's a lot better in your opening hand and a lot worse as a late game draw. Cataclysm also has more application vs more fringe decks like Enchantress, MUD, 12-Post.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
@iatee does cataclysm really win games from behind? I've always found it great as sealing up games I was already ahead in vs miracles or shardless. casting it when the game is even also can be pretty risky.
I do love wilt-leaf liege, but its only really good against the bug decks whereas it seems like gideon has wider application.
the main matchup I'd miss cataclysm against is lands, but mangara/displacer should already strengthen that matchup.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I've won lots of games w/ Cataclysm vs a Jace and lots of lands, or a bunch of angel tokens. They can only keep so much countermagic in g2/g3. It's less good if they're ahead with a Mentor though, but there's only so many problems one card can solve.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Cataclysm is a superb 4-mana reset button that works especially well if you can prepare for casting it for one or two turns. It can most definitely turn games around when you've fallen behind. You should also note that permanent with multiple types may be counted towards either of the types they have (say, you could keep an Ethersworn Canonist by counting it as your artifact to keep, while you count your Thalia, Guardian of Thraben towards your very short list of creatures that may yet live).
Since players of the red splash for Recruiter seem to discuss tutor targets a bit, what do you think of the following cards?
Epochrasite
Descendant of Kiyomaro
Stillmoon Cavalier
Feldon of the Third Path
I think Epochrasite would go a long way in grindy matchups against non-white decks, where your primary concerns are Punishing Fire, Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay. Also, it is 4/4 once flickered/displacered/..., or coming off of Vial. I really liked it in the past, maybe it's even a decent one-of mainboard?
Stillmoon Cavalier is such a blast to have in the mirror, and in all games where your opponent's targeted removal isn't red. Used to be a SB staple of mine in mono-W D&T a while ago.
Descendant of Kiyomaro could be a great solution for the Burn matchup, and scores bonus points for being Human.
Feldon of the Third Path is something I just stumbled over recently; I imagine it to be a cute way to recycle etb-triggers during the later stages of the game. (Also, hasty Mangara copies straight from the yard sound like so much fun!) Bonus points for being Legendary as well as Human.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Epochrasite being a 4/4 coming out of Vial is very interesting actually. I think the problem is that it doesn't solve one match-up in particular as a SB card. The surest sure-to-be-grindy matchup is Miracles, where it's bad. I am gonna try this guy someday though, I actually really like this in theory. It seems like it interacts well w/ all the parts of the deck, the real issue is 'Is a recurring vanilla 4/4 strong enough to be worth a sb slot?'
Descendant of Kiyomaro is pretty cute and I've thought about him before. I think the question is whether it's better than Kor Firewalker, and the fact that it's a 3 drop that's not always actually good suggests that it probably isn't. He isn't guaranteed to be on - burn can and does sandbag spells whereas you always need to play permanents to win.
Stillmoon Cavalier is okay though a non-human that's WW and an x/1 probably just checks too many 'not ideal' boxes. A pro-white creature to tutor would be nice, but they're all kinda bad.
Feldon is a cool card but it requires too much to be right for it to do anything, you need double red, he needs to live a turn, you need mana to activate him, you need something relevant in your GY.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cursecatcher
Is 13 white and 10 colorless too greedy? This is where I'm at now, but maybe the 2nd factory should become a white painland.
13 W is definitely a little greedy. Some of it depends on how many WW casting cost cards you're running. I'm usually playing ~10 WW cards and find 14-15 to be optimal. I could see if you were running something closer to ~7 WW cards, 13 W being passable.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
I think Bygone is bad because when things are going right, we aren't casting our spells anyway. And when we are stuck casting spells like a chump, then we don't have extra mana open to be cracking clues left and right.
Try Kor Skyfisher. I'm serious. It's been reliably good for me. T1 Vial, t3 hardcast Recruiter, get Skyfisher, bounce Recruiter and now you have a Vial that will be on 3 next turn + a Recruiter in hand + a free 2/3 flyer is a really strong opening play vs fair decks, you've turned 2 cards into 4 and only have to spend 4 mana total getting those 4 cards into play. Skyfisher also serves as a semi-Flickerwisp vs removal, and casting it when you miss a land drop is great. Obviously there is potential for downside but even the worst case scenario isn't that bad.
How many Skyfishers do you play? I want to try it out but there are so many sweet cards I'd like to jam into my imperial deck already :)
I just recently switched to imperial and the deck is amazing. I often find myself boarding out the recruiters though, mostly vs. the faster decks like delver. Is that a good or a bad plan?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
So uh.. Skyfisher is insane. Really really insane. I would play two if I could.
Also the new manabase is heappppppssssss better than the previous iterations with 6+ fetches.
Iatee, you son of a gun.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Klirre
How many Skyfishers do you play? I want to try it out but there are so many sweet cards I'd like to jam into my imperial deck already :)
I just recently switched to imperial and the deck is amazing. I often find myself boarding out the recruiters though, mostly vs. the faster decks like delver. Is that a good or a bad plan?
I think there's only room for one Skyfisher, which is a shame cause otherwise you could engine out a board of flyers. One of the problems with the deck is finding space for the tutor package since the D+T core takes up so much space and has a lot of uncuttable stuff.
I generally don't board out all Recruiters since they still fetch key SB cards vs Delver decks, but I usually board out some number. You really don't want to see multiples in your opening hand vs a Stifle/Wasteland deck, but if you have a Vial online you still really want to be able to draw into Demonic Tutor.
